Suggestions for PS from Double Agent

[VaNilla]

I was watching a few Double Agent MP videos today and I seen a number of different things that I liked, and greatly preferred to CT. There's a minor change to poles and zip lines that makes them much more functional; you can grab them from any angle. The best example of what I mean is at 1:36 in THIS video. It just makes them that little bit easier to grab, because you can't just go to the side and miss for example (I'm sure this is already addressed since you're working with a new engine, higher production standards and things, but I want to make sure these kind of things are in place :)). I also noticed that when he jumps off the zipline shortly after, he has free control in the air instead of an inflexible, straight fall with like you have in CT. The mini-map in the top left of the screen and the objective markers which show up through walls also seem very functional and pretty cool, it would be really nice to see those in Project Stealth.

I've also noticed a very cool variation of jumping/neutralising a mercenary at 1:46 in THIS video, where you automatically swing your legs into the head of merc as you grab a ledge, providing they are close enough. There are also dropzones for equipment shown at 2:42, allowing you to restock and change equipment at any time which also sounds pretty interesting. I also like some of the little things in this; when you're moving at the slowest speed, if try to move backwards you actually step backwards instead of turning around; this can be seen at 6:04. Also it may just be me, but the 'jammer' seems like a far more balanced solution than alarm snares in terms of disrupting sound indicators on the HUD. Alarm snares can be placed in any location very easily, almost too easily in my opinion, whereas Jammers seem much more balanced in that the spy must take care to hide them, and physically place them rather than using their gun. Although, a nice addition to the functionality of Jammers would be the ability to throw them onto walls (with realistic range). Also, the fall recovery time also seems much more balanced in DA than CT, as can be seen near the end of the clip. This would remove the need for instant recovery which CT players use to their advantage all the time, so it's important that the recovery time is balanced.

The presence detector (minus the heartbeat/movement effect which crippled DA MP) seems much better than the current sound indicator, in that instead of showing WHERE the sound is coming from, it shows how loud the sound is, which in my opinion could provide a little bit of necessary balancing against the merc. I've always felt that CT's sound detector is overpowered to be honest; I think it's much more interesting, immersive and skilful to make the player listen to their surroundings, rather than telling them exactly where the sound is coming from. The effect can be seen in THIS video at 1:25. The mercs also climb ladders much faster in DA as seen at 1:49, which I think is a big improvement on CT. The sniper rifle at 3:10 definitely seems a lot better. Also, I hope it takes much less time to enter the sniper rifle in PS than it does in CT. The CT sniper is just incredibly clunky compared to those found in more modern games; it's very swingy which caters to analogue control, not mouse control, the scope isn't very good either. I LOVE the statistics shown at the end of the round (they can be seen at the end of the video). Not only do I think that they could be an fun, interesting addition to the game, I think they would actually help players to diagnose how much they're using their equipment, how stealthy they're being, and other useful aspects of their game, allowing them to improve their playstyle if something doesn't seem right. Another thing mentioned in the video is that the rifles have unlimited amounts of ammo, except obviously you still have to reload. I was thinking about this and really, the only times I find myself running short of ammo in CT is if the spies are stupidly running around close up to me in my line of sight. So because of that, in CT it almost feels like mercenaries are punished for having to use up their ammo, because the game forces you to run all the way to an ammo box despite dealing with opposing spies as best as you can. This wastes valuable time, and could potentially cost the mercenaries the round. This begs the question, are ammo boxes really necessary?

There's plenty of other things I've seen in DA that look really good and set it apart from CT in very good ways, but most of these changes and additions have already been mentioned countless times before (escape moves, ghost tutorials, and other things). How do people feel about these aspects of DA being implemented into Project Stealth? Everything's open for discussion :)

UPDATE: Sorry about constantly editing this post for the last hour or so, I just kept getting new ideas and since nobody has posted a reply so far, I hope it's been okay :P

[LennardF1989]

I would love to see this being discussed, thanks for big research on this.

[Cronky]

Good ideas.

While DA was a disappointment coming from CT it did have singular ideas that were improvements. You brought up the good parts. It's just unfortunate that some weren't as thought out as others.

The biggest part I like is the modification to the Presence Detector. I never thought of CT's as Overpowered, but it could be fun adding a little more "Mystery" to the formula. How it was put into DA really ruined the fun, but something like it could be much better. Though I do think for it's time CT's was perfect. If you base your "Detector" on someone listening to sound, then you assume they have the capabilities to differentiate directions (ie; Surround Sound). In CT's day that was just starting to Bloom, or at least that's how I viewed it. Now you can't buy a pair of headphones that wont also double as a 5.1 Surround Sound system (I know, only 5.1, but I'm cheap).

I do have to bring up though that you should take the worst case scenario into play when thinking of how to implement ideas. Directional sound detection (through speakers/Headphones) may not be the BIGGEST part of this idea, but you should take in account those that for whatever reason can't play with sound on. Put too much focus on the actual sound and less on the indication and you'll make it hard for those that can't play with sound. CT I could play with or without, sound only made it better.

It sounds stupid and is probably WAY off base, but just gotta bring it up.

Again, I like the ideas. PS shouldn't be a clone of CT (and hasn't been for a long long time in the dev's eyes I'm sure). And though the ideas still aren't breaking grounds in terms of NEW ideas, refining tested ones is a good way to begin.

Oh... and I saw that wall of text and just HAD to take a stab at making my own! ;)

[Spark Mandriller]

A noise detector which didn't tell you where noise was coming from would be pretty dumb. The PD worked because it always picked things up, so you could move around and see if you were getting closer or not. Spies don't constantly make noise, so most of the time you'd pick up one noise and then have no way to tell where it came from. Move closer to the spy, don't get any feedback because they're not making noise anymore. Move away, still no feedback. Wouldn't be very useful.


ps i like how you think that alarm snares should be nerfed while thinking that the noise detector is op at the same time

[DreadStunLock]

The one thing about the Unlimited Ammo, is the fact that it gives that nerf to the mercenaries, Spies in CT, are really hopelessly weak, they lack movement, their movement is very static and blocky.

• In DA in the one of the videos where a spy does a zip line, it shows alot of tension, movement, feel to it, that you are actually doing a zip line, because the line is being pushed down, and you can see near the spy hands that you are getting burns on the line with the blur effect around your surroundings.

• Mercenaries climbing the ladder at fast should be the case, since they are very bulky and strong, but the fact that they are carrying their gear makes them heavier and climbing a ladder with tons of EQ? I think climbing should be a bit faster than in CT, but not as fast in DA, maybe in a middle of that.

• Also has anyone noticed when you climb a ladder in CT you are exposed to the sticky cam 100%, which is ideal for a spy to sleep you since you cannot turn on your gas mask.

• Also notice that you can climb up the ledges faster, the way they go on a fence and do that fancy jump over move, it's all fast and should be a big buff to the spies in CT, because in my opinion Mercenaries should get a grade down in Project Stealth, since the amount of times they win in CT in a ratio of spies, is ridicilous.

Also, might I add, it's a neat idea, that after couple of 10 games or so, the sillhoutes of the escape moves do not show on the map, I am not sure does it affect all maps or just 1 which you did few times? But I think that would be a great way to progress for players.

[VaNilla]

I would love to see this being discussed, thanks for big research on this.

No problem :)

If you base your "Detector" on someone listening to sound, then you assume they have the capabilities to differentiate directions (ie; Surround Sound). In CT's day that was just starting to Bloom, or at least that's how I viewed it. Now you can't buy a pair of headphones that wont also double as a 5.1 Surround Sound system (I know, only 5.1, but I'm cheap).

I see where you're coming from but you don't actually need surround sound to hear where people are coming from. All stereo speakers/headphones have something called 'soundscape', which creates sounds in appropriate places to let you know if sound is coming from above you, below, from your sides, anywhere. It's not as good as surround sound, but you don't actually need surround sound at all (especially when using headphones). I always use a pair of stereo headphones to play league matches in CSS, a game where sound is very important, and they've never let me down. The quality of your soundscape depends on the model of headphones/speaker that you're using. However, this of course is much more difficult to judge when playing with speakers, as they can't create true soundscape. But even then, you would still be able to hear the sound being created, and how loud it is using a modified presence detector, and could just look around until you find where it's coming from. Of course I'm biased to the idea, but in my experience lacking surround sound isn't a problem. I think showing players where the sound is coming from is really lazy, and actually undermines the idea of sound in the game. Iif a spy is walking slowly in CT, and then changes their speed for just a fraction of a second to make more progress, they're automatically shown up by the noise detector, and I think that's very unfair. It should be up to the mercenary to hear these sounds, they should not be hand-held by the game.

A noise detector which didn't tell you where noise was coming from would be pretty dumb. The PD worked because it always picked things up, so you could move around and see if you were getting closer or not. Spies don't constantly make noise, so most of the time you'd pick up one noise and then have no way to tell where it came from. Move closer to the spy, don't get any feedback because they're not making noise anymore. Move away, still no feedback. Wouldn't be very useful.

ps i like how you think that alarm snares should be nerfed while thinking that the noise detector is op at the same time

Well, I actually said in my post that I don't think those effects should be added. All I want is exactly the same thing as CT has without the arrows, instead a ring should appear around the crosshair. The mercs could even have a noise meter like single player in CT has, except it would detect the volume of sounds which are normally detected by the presence detector within a specific range (explosions, spies, decoys, etc). Your headphones/speakers could then be used to determine where the sound is coming from; you could listen closely to figure out whether the sound is being made on the ground, if a spy is climbing a pipe/riding a zipline, there's lots of applications for that. You made a point the nerfs I suggested at the end of your post, but if you think about it it actually makes perfect sense. If the presence detector were to work as I've outlined, then the alarm snares would become incredibly overpowered, because it would take even more time to determine if the sound was coming from a decoy. And let's be honest, it's obvious when an alarm snare has been planted in CT, because the noise detector shows the player a constant arrow pointing to where the sound is coming from. This is why I believe a jammer is much more sensible, because not only is it easier for a mercenary to find due to the size of the gadget, but it also has to be physically placed in logical locations. I think this would make the gadget more balanced, because not only would it be easier to find and remove as a mercenary, but also more effective for the spies to use in their equipment (provided the presence detector was modified to the level suggested).

The one thing about the Unlimited Ammo, is the fact that it gives that nerf to the mercenaries, Spies in CT, are really hopelessly weak, they lack movement, their movement is very static and blocky.

I assume you meant limited ammo? If so, I disagree. It may well be a nerf to the mercenaries, but it barely ever comes into play, you never really have to fill up on ammo. When you do, it's usually down to way the spies have been playing, so I think the nerf is actually a little bit useless/unfair. As for your points about movement in CT, you're absolutely right. Although I dislike the speed of spies in DA (I think it's actually too fast), it would be good to see the elements you mention implemented into Project Stealth. The example of getting cammed on ladders was actually in the back of my mind whilst I writing the first post :P

UPDATE: Another thing I've noticed was that when you come to a vent in DA, you actually move forwards as you enter instead of stopping dead like in CT. The effect can be seen at 0:12 in THIS video. I also found a nice type of obstacle in THIS video at 3:46, where the spy can climb up a fenced wall up to a ledge grab. It would also be nice to have proper doors as seen at 3:59. I also like that as you can see throughout this video, headshots are much more effective in DA. You can actually aim and make headshot from long range without using the scope provided you have good aim, which I think is very nice. You can also headshot diving spies which can be seen at 4:50. The guns also seem to be much better, in that you actually have to control the weapon instead of being able to spray without a care in the world like CT. I think it would be much better to make the bullets more deadly, but harder to control the recoil/accuracy (making it similar to Counter Strike Source would be awesome). This would be far better than the current system, and may balance out the ratio of mercs beating spies.

Another thing that's great about DA is that kills are shown at the bottom left of the screen instead of slowly appearing in the bottom center. This is much better, because it lets you know what's happened instantly, avoiding frustrating problems such as when 2 spies die at the same time, but the player doesn't know until about 5 seconds afterwards. A very nice move can be seen at 4:59 in the clip where the spy is hanging from a ledge. Because you are able to control movement in the air, he can 180 and grab another ledge below, which is a fantastic addition to the game. Another thing in DA is that you are limited in the amount of times that you can heal your team-mates; it could be interesting to have a limit of something like 3 heals per life. Another idea I have which isn't in DA but could be very useful is to have a dedicated hotkey for melee attacks. Not beserking, but a melee attack you can use whilst moving which doesn't slow the spy down, just takes half of their health away. This would create an interesting dynamic between beserking and the standard melee, and greater depth in the game.

The camera for spies in DA is almost miles better than the camera in CT. The spy is scaled closer to the bottom of the screen giving more room to see above; this is very useful given the verticality of maps in both CT and DA, removing unnecessary visual room at the bottom the screen. Also, neutralising mercenaries/spies works much better in DA. You actually land on them and they fall before you feet rather than you floating in the air as they curl up on the floor; this can be seen at 2:01 in THIS video.

[DreadStunLock]

This is the thing I wanted to point out about DA, it might be a dead game because of the gadgets and how the objectives are made and etc, but the movement is really flawless in it, one thing I like is the fact that you can do a Running roll and roll through some objects, where as in SCCT, if you do that the spy hits the object since he doesn't have enough height.

There can be a part where a mercenary is very low on ammo, and taking the part away where you don't need to go to the ammo box is really I think unbalanced. Note on SCDA, there is no reticule tightening, does not matter if you run or not, there will be no spread, that makes it heavily unrealistic, + All the games now days have this feature, and I think it should be much heavier than in SCDA as well as much heavier than in SCCT too.


Also I noticed in alot of videos, spies can virtually disable any light they want, that does not seem overpowered at all in my opinion, adding a balanced timer for how long the lights will be off can fix the problem.

And you are right about the movement the spies are a bit too speedy, but as stated in DA, they are bionically enhanced I think.


P.S. I WANT A SPY CHICK!!!!!!
      I WANT A SPY CHICK!!!!!!
      I WANT A SPY CHICK!!!!!!
      I WANT A SPY CHICK!!!!!!

[VaNilla]

I really dislike spies being able to disable all the lights, it just removes all the planning the mapper put into lighting his map for balanced stealth gameplay. I know the gun mechanics are bad in DA but I still prefer them to CT. However, that's why I suggested that it should be more like Counter Strike Source; you have to learn to control the guns and burst fire is very important, HERE'S an example of that.

[DreadStunLock]

That does look interesting, but there shouldn't be too much heavy weight put on a rifle, otherwise it will be too much to take, and killing spies will be too hard, but the recoil part I like, it makes sense.

[Farley4Fan]

A noise detector which didn't tell you where noise was coming from would be pretty dumb. The PD worked because it always picked things up, so you could move around and see if you were getting closer or not.

Totally agreed.  The merc is all like "Well, I heard a sound but my super sophisticated equip doesn't let me know where that sound is coming from even though my ears could easily tell".  The sound detector in CT was perfectly balanced as far as I could tell.  Spies don't make much noise.  It's their fault when they do.  They should be punished for that by letting the merc know which direction that sound came from.

There were very few things I liked about DA, but the few things I liked I really liked.  I don't know if this qualified as an escape move but I loved the move where the spy could grab onto an overhanging ledge that he was running underneath.  I think it was an escape move because I kind of remember holding down the escape button to do it.  To describe it a bit better here's an example of where it could be done.  Imagine that the spy could jump up and grab the second floor ledge in Pirates room.  Imagine the spy is running from the objective in pirates to the exit, goes past the cannon, holds down the escape button, and the spy would automatically fling himself up onto the ledge he was running underneath.

If the move is still not clear, here's a better description.  There is a ledge above the spy and behind the spy.  The spy would automatically jump and grab the ledge even when facing away from that ledge.

It may take away a bit of the need for skill to get up to that ledge, but it would make it way smoother and about 100x less clunky to get up.

Stone touched on another great idea which was grabbing poles from all angles (giggity).

[LennardF1989]

the volumetric geometric event system PS has already supports grabbing from any angle, etc. AFAIK.

Indeed, even better than that. You only have to tell the engine where a spy CAN'T climb, so no mumble jumble with placing volumes or whatever around your map.

[VaNilla]

That sounds very good! However, I'd like to know what people think about all those other things I posted too :D

[Farley4Fan]

lol wow how did i not know about this

[AgentX_003]

A noise detector which didn't tell you where noise was coming from would be pretty dumb. The PD worked because it always picked things up, so you could move around and see if you were getting closer or not.

Totally agreed.  The merc is all like "Well, I heard a sound but my super sophisticated equip doesn't let me know where that sound is coming from even though my ears could easily tell".  The sound detector in CT was perfectly balanced as far as I could tell.  Spies don't make much noise.  It's their fault when they do.  They should be punished for that by letting the merc know which direction that sound came from.

There were very few things I liked about DA, but the few things I liked I really liked.  I don't know if this qualified as an escape move but I loved the move where the spy could grab onto an overhanging ledge that he was running underneath.  I think it was an escape move because I kind of remember holding down the escape button to do it.  To describe it a bit better here's an example of where it could be done.  Imagine that the spy could jump up and grab the second floor ledge in Pirates room.  Imagine the spy is running from the objective in pirates to the exit, goes past the cannon, holds down the escape button, and the spy would automatically fling himself up onto the ledge he was running underneath.

If the move is still not clear, here's a better description.  There is a ledge above the spy and behind the spy.  The spy would automatically jump and grab the ledge even when facing away from that ledge.

It may take away a bit of the need for skill to get up to that ledge, but it would make it way smoother and about 100x less clunky to get up.

Stone touched on another great idea which was grabbing poles from all angles (giggity).

*Tactical facepalm * that detector is what mainly ruined the game because for the people who wanted to  play stealth couldn't because both sides essentially had the pd detector plus also the factors that Ubisoft wanted to '' expand to a wider audience " aka Make it super noob friendly which I feel some people on this forum should be staying there but I won't mention any names  ;D

Its a dead game due to factors that they removed the following:

Back to wall ( which is very crucial if you want to not be seen.
Wall flip
No elbow ( god knows why ? )
/ the sticky shocker ,which Well  i could do without , providing the elbow was there but of course it wasn't.

a glitch that wasn't fixed by Ubisoft : if you were the first person to die on your team , you could hear the others teams communication.
Mercs :

Lack of mines .. because face it , mines make the game in a sense that you cant run out there like hell over high noon and beat the living day lights out of the merc.

Pros : Client side or host , the bullets hit perfectly. There was no having to drag your curser when there was lag .
        The maps had alot of potential  but maps like boss house and blackwing can be quite linear due to very few paths , just there was no map editor to expand and this is why it died.

[Farley4Fan]

Preaching to the choir agent hahahah