who else here joins the terrible dark side with me?
... no but seriously i am an atheist...
I am a Pastafarian. Flying Spaghetti Monster FTW.
lolz
Hey, you gotta believe in god just so when you're totally screwed you can look up and say "oh god i'm fucked...".
may God have mercy on your soul...
rAmen
Atheists make me laugh. Their beliefs are arrogant assumptions, just like every other religion in the world. The fact is, you don't know shit.
The (IMO) fact that most monotheists believe in God as the only God (according to the Bible) but swear that all other gods of the ancient times did/do not exist... now that's arrogant and naieve.
Quote from: frvge on December 16, 2008, 08:04:48 AM
The (IMO) fact that most monotheists believe in God as the only God (according to the Bible) but swear that all other gods of the ancient times did/do not exist... now that's arrogant and naieve.
Hence why I said "just like every other religion in the world." The thing is, religion works around faith whereas atheism works on certainty.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motifake.com%2Fmotivational_posters%2Fd23beec3ae.jpg&hash=f64fa7ad21a76f59b531906f58a3d70878924d28)
will this kill the thread or enrage some people? we'll find out after this...
lolz.
The very first thing currently can't be explained, and most likely will never happen.
Although the LHC is said to answer what happened and why 0.000001 second after the Big Bang. =] Go science.
It's been my experience that..... There are no atheist in foxholes something to ponder. You really got to have a huge set of brass balls to look death in the face and say there's no god ! Do You really trust your instincts or convictions that much ? I will say a prayer on your behalf.
Of course, God would pop up on that moment. Why? People are scared, so they tend to pray to a higher power for protection. It is highly unlikely that Wodan (or was it Thor?) makes the thunderstorms, but people were scared of thunderstorms so they prayed. Our advanced equipment shows how thunderstorms are made. So with your war-scene, God is IMO a placebo or a tranquillizer for the soothing effect. It's said to work. Mind over matter when it comes to physiological effects.
People who live there life around something they're unsure exist are tards. You only have one life. Religions are so restrictive aswell, dont do drugs, don't drink alcohol, pray x amount of times a day, dont have sex before marriage, dont use these words. People always need to put a reason, or answer behind everything, that's why religion exists.
Quote from: agentsmybitch on December 16, 2008, 07:42:08 PM
It's been my experience that..... There are no atheist in foxholes something to ponder. You really got to have a huge set of brass balls to look death in the face and say there's no god ! Do You really trust your instincts or convictions that much ? I will say a prayer on your behalf.
I'm sure the guy in the clouds will be listening oh so closely to what you have to say.
I will say, if it makes you happy or feel good, then right on.
Astronomers just proved the center of the galaxy is a black hole....
guess we are all doomed, no matter what you believe.
Lol, goodkebab with the much needed comic relief. My lord.
Astronomers also proved that the sun will die out eventually (in millions of years). As if we weren't doomed enough already!
I just watched a really interesting show where scientists used the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah (from the Bible) to find out the biggest disaster in our Earth's history. A 3/4 of a mile asteroid hurled toward the Earth, the debris destroyed the area of Sodom and Gomorrah. Get this. If this event never happened, the Mid East would be covered with Jungle. The Iraq War would be reminiscent of Vietnam, lol...
Yeah, God works in amazing ways. He shaped our environments and punished humanity in one fowl swoop. There just seems to be much more truth found in the bible every day.
I've got a very open mind so let me hear whatever you have to say.
Quote from: Westfall on December 16, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Atheists make me laugh. Their beliefs are arrogant assumptions, just like every other religion in the world. The fact is, you don't know shit.
haha dude.. that is what an atheist is, a person who only believes reasoning can lead to the truth, and that therefore uses the scientific method to fill the gaps.. and yes we atheists do know the fact that we dont know anything (relatively) yet like u said.
in contrast, religious people use faith and other explinations to fill their gaps
being like a person like westfall whom thinks god is non existant and that science is obsolete reflects pure ignorance and uselessness lol.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on December 16, 2008, 12:42:50 AM
Hey, you gotta believe in god just so when you're totally screwed you can look up and say "oh god i'm fucked...".
lol, even though im an atheist, ironically i still use the phrase "omg" sometimes.
Quote from: Wanted_David on December 16, 2008, 07:18:34 PM
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motifake.com%2Fmotivational_posters%2Fd23beec3ae.jpg&hash=f64fa7ad21a76f59b531906f58a3d70878924d28)
will this kill the thread or enrage some people? we'll find out after this...
well religion dosent even know what a dinosaur is or that it exists. that proves at least that there was life before "adam and eve" unlike how the bible explains it. and that also proves wrong the fact that it was created in six fucking days.
and dont go on the "oh its a metaphor" route cause if that were the case then the whole book is nothing but BS
the fact is that the religions have been adapting themselves and keeping up with science just so they can stay in existance; everytime something is proven wrong in the bible they go on to some lame excuse (like the "its only poetry and metaphores") and some faith explination.
even scientists believe in God. The goal is not to disprove God, but to explain how God works.
Quote from: agentsmybitch on December 16, 2008, 07:42:08 PM
It's been my experience that..... There are no atheist in foxholes something to ponder. You really got to have a huge set of brass balls to look death in the face and say there's no god ! Do You really trust your instincts or convictions that much ? I will say a prayer on your behalf.
u say that eventually every self proclaimed atheist believes in god just when they confront stress or anxiety in situations like war.
personally what i do is cross my fingers or do shit like that... good luck stuff u know.
not everybody does that; there are hypocrites in existance.
from my experience there are no atheists in kamikazi or terrorist airplanes; which means that we aint stupid at least. (not that all religious people are, but i'd say theres a higher rate of dumb religious people than there is of dumb atheists)
being a dumb atheist would be like westfall cause he dosent believe in god but dosent think science is right either. lol. westfall said "i laugh at atheists' beliefs"
Quote from: frvge on December 16, 2008, 07:49:53 PM
Of course, God would pop up on that moment. Why? People are scared, so they tend to pray to a higher power for protection. It is highly unlikely that Wodan (or was it Thor?) makes the thunderstorms, but people were scared of thunderstorms so they prayed. Our advanced equipment shows how thunderstorms are made. So with your war-scene, God is IMO a placebo or a tranquillizer for the soothing effect. It's said to work. Mind over matter when it comes to physiological effects.
i agree, with this guy, there is an reason for everything my friends :P
Quote from: FR33M4N on December 16, 2008, 09:32:51 PM
People who live there life around something they're unsure exist are tards. You only have one life. Religions are so restrictive aswell, dont do drugs, don't drink alcohol, pray x amount of times a day, dont have sex before marriage, dont use these words. People always need to put a reason, or answer behind everything, that's why religion exists.
i agree, i choose to live my life around reason and free will. if a have a second eternal life, how nice. if i dont, well i had a good time in my life :D.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 17, 2008, 02:29:51 AM
Lol, goodkebab with the much needed comic relief. My lord.
Astronomers also proved that the sun will die out eventually (in millions of years). As if we weren't doomed enough already!
I just watched a really interesting show where scientists used the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah (from the Bible) to find out the biggest disaster in our Earth's history. A 3/4 of a mile asteroid hurled toward the Earth, the debris destroyed the area of Sodom and Gomorrah. Get this. If this event never happened, the Mid East would be covered with Jungle. The Iraq War would be reminiscent of Vietnam, lol...
Yeah, God works in amazing ways. He shaped our environments and punished humanity in one fowl swoop. There just seems to be much more truth found in the bible every day.
I've got a very open mind so let me hear whatever you have to say.
so u saying that u think that global warming and future disasters will be provoked by god to erradicate assholes like me? oh noes
plz im sorry god!
Quote from: goodkebab on December 17, 2008, 08:54:10 PM
even scientists believe in God. The goal is not to disprove God, but to explain how God works.
you wouldnt know that unless u were a scientist urself. lol
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 17, 2008, 09:03:49 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 17, 2008, 02:29:51 AM
Lol, goodkebab with the much needed comic relief. My lord.
Astronomers also proved that the sun will die out eventually (in millions of years). As if we weren't doomed enough already!
I just watched a really interesting show where scientists used the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah (from the Bible) to find out the biggest disaster in our Earth's history. A 3/4 of a mile asteroid hurled toward the Earth, the debris destroyed the area of Sodom and Gomorrah. Get this. If this event never happened, the Mid East would be covered with Jungle. The Iraq War would be reminiscent of Vietnam, lol...
Yeah, God works in amazing ways. He shaped our environments and punished humanity in one fowl swoop. There just seems to be much more truth found in the bible every day.
I've got a very open mind so let me hear whatever you have to say.
so u saying that u think that global warming and future disasters will be provoked by god to erradicate assholes like me? oh noes
plz im sorry god!
Didn't say that. I think you have the wrong idea about me (and hopefully not other Christians as well). There are things that are caused by man, and things that are caused by God. These events are often disguised in a natural cloak. Meaning he uses things we'd think of being natural to shape things. This universe, our Earth, it's all just way way way too perfect.
And btw, a lot of the stories in the Bible are meant to be moral teachings and I'm sure that not every single phrase is meant in a literal way. This is why the Bible cannot be taught in public schools, there are too many interperetations. So yeah, teach me evolution. Tell me about this big bang. Explain to me how we got here. However, by doing so I believe you are missing out a very huge portion about the origin of our universe.
God will not work in blatant, obvious ways. Because then following God would be based off of nothing except facts, not faith. If everyone knows he exists then how would he test our souls? If there was a giant face in the sky that said "I am God, I exist, worship me" who would not do what he says? There's no test there.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 17, 2008, 02:29:51 AM
Didn't say that. I think you have the wrong idea about me (and hopefully not other Christians as well). There are things that are caused by man, and things that are caused by God. These events are often disguised in a natural cloak. Meaning he uses things we'd think of being natural to shape things. This universe, our Earth, it's all just way way way too perfect.
And btw, a lot of the stories in the Bible are meant to be moral teachings and I'm sure that not every single phrase is meant in a literal way. This is why the Bible cannot be taught in public schools, there are too many interperetations. So yeah, teach me evolution. Tell me about this big bang. Explain to me how we got here. However, by doing so I believe you are missing out a very huge portion about the origin of our universe.
God will not work in blatant, obvious ways. Because then following God would be based off of nothing except facts, not faith. If everyone knows he exists then how would he test our souls? If there was a giant face in the sky that said "I am God, I exist, worship me" who would not do what he says? There's no test there.
sounds like ur serious about ur beliefs, and i respect that. if it makes u happy then ok, but i am the kind of person who dosent like to be restrained by beliefs. i think there is more to life than just a fairy tale like story contained in a book. i like to do base my action in ethics and moral and my thinking in reasoning.
i dont do good actions because i fear punishment (hell), but simply because of the morale that i was taught by my parents and my school teachers.
Quotesounds like ur serious about ur beliefs, and i respect that. if it makes u happy then ok, but i am the kind of person who dosent like to be restrained by beliefs.
Again I don't think you understand. I am in no way restrained by my beliefs. I have free will and if I choose to do the wrong thing then that's my choice. Having Christianity at my side enables me to review my actions and improve. Believing there is a God not only makes me happy but I also see it as one of the only logical explanations for the universe. The others I do not see logical without a God.
Quotei think there is more to life than just a fairy tale like story contained in a book. i like to do base my action in ethics and moral and my thinking in reasoning.
Oh Roberto, you are so very right. There is more to life. More to life than simple data, theories, and science. Just so you know I haven't read even a third of the Bible. Obviously I haven't completely shaped my moral values around the Bible. My ethics and moral values are not always in tune with what the bible teaches but that's what makes me human. However we are usually taught the basic Christian principles regardless of if you are Christian or not. Agree? Don't kill, don't steal, etc. We all are human, and we all (most of us) try to do our best to follow these basic guidelines.
Quotei dont do good actions because i fear punishment (hell), but simply because of the morale that i was taught by my parents and my school teachers.
And neither do I. I'm sure God recognizes if someone is doing good actions for self benefit (not going to hell) and when someone is doing it because it's the right thing. For example, giving to charity because you hope it helps is one thing, but giving to charity to save your ass is much different.
The main difference between you and I is this: You believe that science can explain everything and I do not. In my personal opinion science will never explain everything. Just when scientists get to that point where they think they crack the code they will hit a brick wall of mystery, just like always.
The origin of the universe or how God came into play is something that most likely can not explained by anything.
Where the Bible claims the truth because it's in the book, science tries to find out how/what/why by experiments to verify theories.
E=MC2 goes a long way from the little dot of energy to the Big Bang... and if the Large Hedron Collider works as expected, we'll have an answer to why there's gravity. If it doesn't give that answer, science will continue their quest for knowledge. Theists dont need knowledge, because everything is in the book.
Remember: religion is always thought. Ethics depend on culture, not on religion.
QuoteThe origin of the universe or how God came into play is something that most likely can not explained by anything.
As is the big bang.
QuoteWhere the Bible claims the truth because it's in the book, science tries to find out how/what/why by experiments to verify theories.
A lot of these things have been tested, these stories in the Bible, by science and a lot of them have been proven to be true. Again I believe that a lot of the stories in the Bible are simply moral teachings and not actual events. Noah's Ark, Soddom and Gomorrah, they are being proven true by science.
QuoteE=MC2
Speaking of E=MC2, Einstein believed there is a God. Just so you know.
Quotegoes a long way from the little dot of energy to the Big Bang... and if the Large Hedron Collider works as expected, we'll have an answer to why there's gravity. If it doesn't give that answer, science will continue their quest for knowledge. Theists dont need knowledge, because everything is in the book.
Obviously everything is not in the book. If the Bible was a science book then we wouldn't need to do any experiments. But I'll say it again, all science is just how not why. I will always support doing scientific research on our universe but I have a very very hard time believing that that's all there is to our origin.
QuoteRemember: religion is always thought. Ethics depend on culture, not on religion.
Our culture resembles the Christian religion though and that's all I was saying. Our law (in America and most parts around the world ) resembles the 10 commandments if you haven't noticed.
The ten commandments would fit basically any animal species more or less. Except for the humans, who violate them on a way larger scale than any animal...
Ummm, no. More or less? How about way less. That statement just boggles my mind. Ever hear of predators - they kill, all the time. Ever hear of scavengers - they steal food, all the time. There's no real sense of right in wrong in the animal kingdom (other than in humans). Do what it takes to survive is all animals know. I'd love to hear you explain that statement because it makes 0 sense.
You misread killing for food for killing for non-food. Killing for food is natural for predators.
Humans are one of the few species that kill members of their own kind. Goes also for adultery and basically every sin.
Animals are better than humans.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 17, 2008, 08:36:28 PM
Quote from: Westfall on December 16, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Atheists make me laugh. Their beliefs are arrogant assumptions, just like every other religion in the world. The fact is, you don't know shit.
haha dude.. that is what an atheist is, a person who only believes reasoning can lead to the truth, and that therefore uses the scientific method to fill the gaps.. and yes we atheists do know the fact that we dont know anything (relatively) yet like u said.
in contrast, religious people use faith and other explinations to fill their gaps
being like a person like westfall whom thinks god is non existant and that science is obsolete reflects pure ignorance and uselessness lol.
For one, I did not say God was non-existent, or whatever you like to call it. I also did not say science was obsolete, that's just you trying to justify your cultist belief system.
Atheists are useless and ignorant. I am by no means a religious person, b/c I don't believe in fables, and I am by no means an atheist, because I do not know what happens to me when I die. I'm easily a class of non-retarded humans known as agnostics. YOU downplay the idea of a god, while I believe in "The goal is not to disprove God, but to explain how God works." as goodkebab so finely put. Science is an amazing tool and I do believe in rationality, but science will never be able to prove everything because some things will never be defined. Unfortunately you fucking atheists have a set thought...you live once, you die and you redevelop in the trees...Those trees get cut down and make paper...toilet paper, that I wipe my ass with.
And just so you know atheist boy, it is a proven fact...scientifically....that there is energy in your body that releases itself when you die. This energy surrounds your brain and your entire spinal cord. Its just electricity...how the fuck do you think you feel shit...neurons. This deals with the ideas behind quantum physics that the greatest mind in the world could acknowledge and discover and has even been quoted in this thread by frvge...Einstein.
I'm glad that you feel high and mighty about your atheist beliefs, but not all of us are as naive. I suppose you open your mind a little more before being so definitive.
Quote
i dont do good actions because i fear punishment (hell), but simply because of the morale that i was taught by my parents and my school teachers.
Did they tell you that atheism was for the win too? I'm serious...you need to do some serious soul searching before you dub yourself something so close-minded. You can say I'm an idiot, or useless as you so intelligently put, but you still make me laugh at your lame justification.
QuoteSpeaking of E=MC2, Einstein believed there is a God. Just so you know.
He was not, however, religious about it at all. He was in the belief that you are yourself God in how you react to your life. He's responsible for the theories around the god particle that the LHC is trying to find.
QuoteThe ten commandments would fit basically any animal species more or less. Except for the humans, who violate them on a way larger scale than any animal...
this statement along with anything in the bible would act as a guide on how to live morally. I'm pretty sure any human could figure it out though. Religions brought it too far and were incorrect in their judgments.
This is definitely an interesting debate and well done by most " I applaud all the efforts"
It appears it kinda boils down to Science...... versus .......Faith or I can make it even more simple
" I believe in God Therefore........... I did not come from an ape " lol just food for thought
"Now who wants a bannana"?
Agentsmybitch, (awesome name btw) evolution and God aren't mutually exclusive. God easily could have used evolution to create humans. I don't know. For all I know he could have laid clues down for evolution to test our faith. Wouldn't that be an interesting twist?
Why would he test you? Sounds like an excuse for hard decisions.
I agree, I don't like those kind of theories at all. It's like when you ask a religious person how God was created and they say "You would have to be God to understand that".
Quote from: frvge on December 19, 2008, 08:27:31 AM
Why would he test you? Sounds like an excuse for hard decisions.
Testing your love for your creator seem odd to you? Why?
He gave us free will, meaning he won't make us do what he wishes. He wants to see you do what he wishes on your own. That's the test.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 19, 2008, 03:46:50 PM
I agree, I don't like those kind of theories at all. It's like when you ask a religious person how God was created and they say "You would have to be God to understand that".
We'll all know soon enough. Everything loops. All theories of the origin of the universe have that halting problem with what they propose. What was before our universe? How did THAT come to be? No one knows - yet.
Quote from: Westfall on December 16, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Atheists make me laugh. Their beliefs are arrogant assumptions, just like every other religion in the world. The fact is, you don't know shit.
Saying atheism is a religion is like saying a bald guy has a haircut. Westfall, you are saying that denying other religions and beliefs is gay... and at the same time you are denying the possibility of there being no god. I don't believe in god, I believe in spirit... conscience. I do believe in an after death. But I don't think that god picks me up by my hair and gently sets me upon a cloud and we all tell eachother stories without ever again feeling pain :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
btw... I'm surprised roberto is athiest. Athiests usually have common sense... He probably just followed his parents into it.
okay I can't just stop there... In my mind, religion is an excuse. An excuse for the unexplainable. Humans cannot determine how everything started and they never will be. But what a religion does is give you an answer to something they don't have the answer for. Then throughout history they fight eachother just to prove themselves right.
I like buddhists though. They believe in a god, but they accept the others beliefs as if they were their own. And they are a bit more spiritual than jump down on your knees when you're having a rough time, clench your hands together and PRAISE THE ALMIGHTY SMIGHTER FOR WELL BEING PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=3016
Quote from: Westfall on December 18, 2008, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 17, 2008, 08:36:28 PM
Quote from: Westfall on December 16, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Atheists are useless and ignorant.
And insults make your argument stronger?
I am by no means a religious person, b/c I don't believe in fables, and I am by no means an atheist, because I do not know what happens to me when I die. I'm easily a class of non-retarded humans known as agnostics. YOU downplay the idea of a god, while I believe in "The goal is not to disprove God, but to explain how God works." as goodkebab so finely put. Science is an amazing tool and I do believe in rationality, but science will never be able to prove everything because some things will never be defined. Unfortunately you fucking atheists have a set thought...you live once, you die and you redevelop in the trees...Those trees get cut down and make paper...toilet paper, that I wipe my ass with.
Westfall, most athiests don't necessarily believe in reincarnation. And whether you are an athiest or not, your body will decompose. I hope you grandchildren enjoy wiping their asses with your organs.
And just so you know atheist boy, it is a proven fact...scientifically....that there is energy in your body that releases itself when you die.
And I'm gonna need a citation bud.
Also, I don't understand how you call athiests arrogant and naive. Generally, the idea behind the logic is that it is up to the person that makes the claim to back it up. Those who believe in God, in order to avoid having fallacies in logic, must provide logical evidence that God exists. One can't simply say Santa exists because there are presents under the tree and call those who disagree arrogant.
You may call athiests arrogant because of the fact that the steadfastly deny God, but we, in theory, are no different from agnostics. This is because, collectively, we don't follow until there is evidence.
Quote from: Blank Man on December 20, 2008, 05:46:52 AM
okay I can't just stop there... In my mind, religion is an excuse. An excuse for the unexplainable. Humans cannot determine how everything started and they never will be. But what a religion does is give you an answer to something they don't have the answer for. Then throughout history they fight eachother just to prove themselves right.
I like buddhists though. They believe in a god, but they accept the others beliefs as if they were their own. And they are a bit more spiritual than jump down on your knees when you're having a rough time, clench your hands together and PRAISE THE ALMIGHTY SMIGHTER FOR WELL BEING PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
You're just being ignorant.
Quote from: Blank Man on December 20, 2008, 05:37:21 AM
btw... I'm surprised roberto is athiest. Athiests usually have common sense... He probably just followed his parents into it.
You're view of common sense is skewed because you do not have it.
Common sense is not so common.
Papa, I think discussing with people who don't believe in God and trying to prove them you're right and they are not is completely pointless because there is no way you can prove it. Moreover, as a Christian you will never have that satisfaction when it finally turns out God exists cause
a) you can't prove it now
b) When it comes to final judgment, you won't have satisfaction that people who didnt believe will suffer
They can ask you hundreds of questions you won't be able to answer also saying you're arrogant or naive but it doesn't change the fact that many times people who deny existance of God desperatly try to deny the influence of religion and tradition of church made on shaping the ethic and law systems of Europe and (obviously) America.
BTW Papa, are you a Catholic or perhaps a member of some Church segment ?
Quote from: neth on December 20, 2008, 03:47:06 PM
Papa, I think discussing with people who don't believe in God and trying to prove them you're right and they are not is completely pointless because there is no way you can prove it. Moreover, as a Christian you will never have that satisfaction when it finally turns out God exists cause
a) you can't prove it now
b) When it comes to final judgment, you won't have satisfaction that people who didnt believe will suffer
They can ask you hundreds of questions you won't be able to answer also saying you're arrogant or naive but it doesn't change the fact that many times people who deny existance of God desperatly try to deny the influence of religion and tradition of church made on shaping the ethic and law systems of Europe and (obviously) America.
BTW Papa, are you a Catholic or perhaps a member of some Church segment ?
I'm not particularly trying to convince people because I know how impossible it is, especially just talking through text messages. I'm just a guy who believes in God and someone who believes that Jesus Christ was the messenger of this God and our savior.
Oh. Good thing you made this last post. That would have been strange if your post count was 666.
Most people believe in a God for another reason too. "The world couldn't have just started", what if we switch that argument around and say "God couldn't have just started".
QuoteWe'll all know soon enough. Everything loops. All theories of the origin of the universe have that halting problem with what they propose. What was before our universe? How did THAT come to be? No one knows - yet.
Posted this earlier. :)
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 19, 2008, 02:06:51 AM
Agentsmybitch, (awesome name btw) evolution and God aren't mutually exclusive. God easily could have used evolution to create humans. I don't know. For all I know he could have laid clues down for evolution to test our faith. Wouldn't that be an interesting twist?
lol dude...
if u created something that lives would u test it in that way? i wouldnt... thats just an anthropomorphication of something that isnt even human.
religions assume that god would be human-like atleast in a cognitive way. but truth is that by that simple assumption made by religious people, science can deduce that religion was invented by mankind and nothing else.
it was the old way of satisfying our life questions back in the day when we couldnt research in a systematic way.
someday maybe in the year 4000 religions will no longer exist or maybe other religions will be created...
Quote from: Kodadog on December 20, 2008, 07:11:17 AM
http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=3016Quote from: Westfall on December 18, 2008, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 17, 2008, 08:36:28 PM
Quote from: Westfall on December 16, 2008, 06:50:15 AM
Atheists are useless and ignorant.
And insults make your argument stronger?
I am by no means a religious person, b/c I don't believe in fables, and I am by no means an atheist, because I do not know what happens to me when I die. I'm easily a class of non-retarded humans known as agnostics. YOU downplay the idea of a god, while I believe in "The goal is not to disprove God, but to explain how God works." as goodkebab so finely put. Science is an amazing tool and I do believe in rationality, but science will never be able to prove everything because some things will never be defined. Unfortunately you fucking atheists have a set thought...you live once, you die and you redevelop in the trees...Those trees get cut down and make paper...toilet paper, that I wipe my ass with.
Westfall, most athiests don't necessarily believe in reincarnation. And whether you are an athiest or not, your body will decompose. I hope you grandchildren enjoy wiping their asses with your organs.
And just so you know atheist boy, it is a proven fact...scientifically....that there is energy in your body that releases itself when you die.
And I'm gonna need a citation bud.
Also, I don't understand how you call athiests arrogant and naive. Generally, the idea behind the logic is that it is up to the person that makes the claim to back it up. Those who believe in God, in order to avoid having fallacies in logic, must provide logical evidence that God exists. One can't simply say Santa exists because there are presents under the tree and call those who disagree arrogant.
You may call athiests arrogant because of the fact that the steadfastly deny God, but we, in theory, are no different from agnostics. This is because, collectively, we don't follow until there is evidence.
i agree, westfall is kinda dumb hes like against everything both religion and scientific theories... then again, he was right i guess when he said that all he knew is that he was stupid. westfall is the kinda guy that would be perfect for scientology. :(
No, I'm the kind of guy that isn't completely blinded by my own self. Unfortunately, people like Roberto who don't understand anything outside of this consciousness just wander around babbling bullshit. I love how you stupid fucks twist my words around the entire time...the ENTIRE TIME.
Quote
i agree, westfall is kinda dumb hes like against everything both religion and scientific theories
Thanks for continually proving that you're an idiot. If you knew how to read you would see that I'm not against science. I'm against religion because it is a man made attempt at gaining power, but you're too fucking stupid to read the words that are on the page. It's useless to try and speak to any of you when your heads are so far up your asses. Read my last post you ignorant fuck before you try and call anyone dumb.
QuoteAnd insults make your argument stronger?
Pretty sure Roberto called me that first, but cool. My only fault was saying that the ideas of atheism are arrogant.
QuoteWestfall, most athiests don't necessarily believe in reincarnation. And whether you are an athiest or not, your body will decompose. I hope you grandchildren enjoy wiping their asses with your organs.
If you're any athiest you
definitely don't believe in reincarnation. I don't care about what happens to my body, because it's just that...a body. Going to also say there was a better point behind what I said prior to this post, but its fine if it went over your head.
QuoteAnd I'm gonna need a citation bud.
I do know that in 2001/2002 a professor of physics at UConn was one of the first to prove that energy leaves your body when you die. It goes along with the ideas of auras that surround your body. In fact, everything is electron based...perhaps the word matter rings a bell. Put your hands close together and notice how there is a warmth that you feel when they are close but not touching. This is the exact type of energy I'm talking about. I'm sorry that I can't site any of the specific books or online sources that I have read, but many metaphysical sites will state the same thing, if you're into that kind of stuff. However, its not that your energy goes into love and light BS like everyone wants to believe. If you want to think of balance, then you might be a little bit more on track.
QuotePapa, I think discussing with people who don't believe in God and trying to prove them you're right and they are not is completely pointless because there is no way you can prove it. Moreover, as a Christian you will never have that satisfaction when it finally turns out God exists cause
a) you can't prove it now
b) When it comes to final judgment, you won't have satisfaction that people who didnt believe will suffer
They can ask you hundreds of questions you won't be able to answer also saying you're arrogant or naive but it doesn't change the fact that many times people who deny existance of God desperatly try to deny the influence of religion and tradition of church made on shaping the ethic and law systems of Europe and (obviously) America.
But there is a fine line between someone justifying their actions because "God wanted them to do it" and just living with free will you know? There is no little guy who sits in the clouds and listens to everything you're always asking of "him."
@ Blankman: Buddhism for the win man. They have the right ideas.
If there's a God how can you explain the atrocities that happen in Africa, with people starving to death or dying with AIDS?
Not saying I'm an atheist ( infact I don't even know if I do or don't believe in God,) just wondering how "good" can He be when there's stuff like that going on (if there even is such thing as God).
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 20, 2008, 09:39:18 AM
Quote from: Blank Man on December 20, 2008, 05:46:52 AM
okay I can't just stop there... In my mind, religion is an excuse. An excuse for the unexplainable. Humans cannot determine how everything started and they never will be. But what a religion does is give you an answer to something they don't have the answer for. Then throughout history they fight eachother just to prove themselves right.
I like buddhists though. They believe in a god, but they accept the others beliefs as if they were their own. And they are a bit more spiritual than jump down on your knees when you're having a rough time, clench your hands together and PRAISE THE ALMIGHTY SMIGHTER FOR WELL BEING PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
You're just being ignorant.
Quote from: Blank Man on December 20, 2008, 05:37:21 AM
btw... I'm surprised roberto is athiest. Athiests usually have common sense... He probably just followed his parents into it.
You're view of common sense is skewed because you do not have it.
Common sense is not so common.
Untill you explain... you're the ignorant one.
Other than that you're still ignorant because you think that if you type something ironic into a thread you are a bad ass.
How about you share your views on religion in a thread that was actually created for that, then get trampled by people who actually have good points.
westfall, your whole "neutral but not really" role in this thread is pretty useless.
this thread is about a discussion between two sides.
you came in here just saying you laugh at both sides, and thinking that your too smart for any of them.
if you wanna pursuade someone, you have to be sure of what you believe in.
if you dont know what you believe in, or if you think you are too bright to believe in anything then to me thats just being ignorant. im sorry.
Quotelol dude...
if u created something that lives would u test it in that way? i wouldnt... thats just an anthropomorphication of something that isnt even human.
What the hell is this even supposed to prove? That God isn't human? Good job. God works in mysterious ways and in way beyond our understanding of genius. Leaving
slight but not definitive evidence that he doesn't exist sounds very smart to me. He roots out all the people who only see with their eyes.
Quotereligions assume that god would be human-like atleast in a cognitive way. but truth is that by that simple assumption made by religious people, science can deduce that religion was invented by mankind and nothing else.
God made us in HIS image. Therefore you can say that we, in a way, look LIKE God - not that God looks like us. In reality, it's not our image, he's the original.
Quoteit was the old way of satisfying our life questions back in the day when we couldnt research in a systematic way.
Only partially true. I now accept most if not all things that scientific proof provides. I rely on science and such to explain to me the phenomenons of the world. As I've said countless times God and science are not mutually exclusive. But the truth is science will never solve everything. Never. Not in a thousand years. There's always that wall. You call God my scapegoat for the unexplained but I see it as the only logical answer for the things that will ALWAYS BE unexplained.
Quotesomeday maybe in the year 4000 religions will no longer exist or maybe other religions will be created...
You honestly believe humans will be on Earth (or physically existing) for 2000 more years? I don't see that happening honestly. You think religion will one day be obsolete but unfortunately for you I keep seeing more and more proof aiding the side of God.
Quotethis thread is about a discussion between two sides.
you came in here just saying you laugh at both sides, and thinking that your too smart for any of them.
The place to be is in the middle.
Think of republicans and democrats, or other opposing political views. There is not just 1 party that has it completely right. It's good to have a mix of views and not stay too close minded.
It's sad to see both sides of the spectrum to make good points and have the opposing "side" ignore them. It's ignorance at its finest. People today have become so grounded in their beliefs that anything different is looked at like a bunch of propaganda.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 22, 2008, 11:04:35 PM
westfall, your whole "neutral but not really" role in this thread is pretty useless.
this thread is about a discussion between two sides.
you came in here just saying you laugh at both sides, and thinking that your too smart for any of them.
if you wanna pursuade someone, you have to be sure of what you believe in.
if you dont know what you believe in, or if you think you are too bright to believe in anything then to me thats just being ignorant. im sorry.
Roberto, I like to find myself in a balance, which is basically how things end up unfolding anyways. The discussion was about your choice of joining an atheist mindset, not a fight b/w religion and non religion. Having beliefs in religions or atheism go hand in hand. I DO know what my beliefs are and I find that they come off as a happy medium of balance. I'm not too smart for either side, I just don't find myself to be as naive or close-minded to set my beliefs on fables or nothingness. I'm not trying to persuade either, just adding commentary in lieu of your findings, which is what a forum does. Also, being "too bright" to believe in anything would be better than lying to myself.
I didn't mean to come off as harsh as I did in the start. I just find it crazy how the human mind perceives so many options that are unfaithful to it's self. It tends to grind my gears you know? I do apologize if I offended you, but at the same time I hope that you won't just settle down on the ideas of atheism, but look more around you and the way you perceive your life.
Quote
It's sad to see both sides of the spectrum to make good points and have the opposing "side" ignore them. It's ignorance at its finest. People today have become so grounded in their beliefs that anything different is looked at like a bunch of propaganda.
This is exactly what I'm talking about Roberto. Papa's not lying. Open your mind.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on December 22, 2008, 07:55:40 PM
If there's a God how can you explain the atrocities that happen in Africa, with people starving to death or dying with AIDS?
Not saying I'm an atheist ( infact I don't even know if I do or don't believe in God,) just wondering how "good" can He be when there's stuff like that going on (if there even is such thing as God).
Balance. If you believe in philosophy, you should check out Plato's "Republic" or "Allegory of the Cave." Positive and preventative checks are what he refers to, but the whole idea of balance has a role in everything. Thoughts on karma?
QuoteHow about you share your views on religion in a thread that was actually created for that, then get trampled by people who actually have good points.
This thread delves into the ideas of a belief system, which are just that in a religion. Papa has been sharing his views on religion and getting reamed by some. If this thread wasn't meant for controversial issues, then I don't know what it qualifies under.
QuoteUntill you explain... you're the ignorant one.
Other than that you're still ignorant because you think that if you type something ironic into a thread you are a bad ass.
Makes zero sense. How is that being ignorant? That does not even come close to falling under the ignorant category. Get lost, preferably in the dictionary. Go learn, ignorant one. Stop generalizing. Do the research and stop getting these broad ideas in your head that everything falls into your definitions. You're not always right and you've proven to me many times on this site anyway that you are close minded and arrogant.
QuoteHow about you share your views on religion in a thread that was actually created for that, then get trampled by people who actually have good points.
Being an atheist means you don't believe in any God/gods. If you really think that this thread was made to keep out people of faith then wow. Who the hell cares? It's the discussion we are having now that matters, right? Man oh man.
QuoteI do believe in an after death. But I don't think that god picks me up by my hair and gently sets me upon a cloud and we all tell eachother stories without ever again feeling pain
I don't think it's like that either blank man. Glad we agree.
On an unrelated note, does the thought of hell existing ever scare you? I'm in no way trying to scare you into Christianity, not what I'm about, but I often wonder what atheists think about the possible consequences of their actions. Does an intelligent creator really seem that illogical and that impossible?
I believe that every human is born with a soul. A soul that is often referred to as a conscience. A soul that is molded and shaped by every experience we have in life. A soul that is ultimately judged by our creator - the one that started the things we know as the big bang or even evolution. That soul is either granted eternal prosperity or eternal damnation in places that are not limited by physics. Those places were the only existing things before our universe was created.
"Do the research and stop getting these broad ideas in your head that everything falls into your definitions." + "Being an atheist means you don't believe in any God/gods." = Contradiction. and LOL
Take your own advice and stfu.
Oh and btw, faking confusion doesn't get you out of countering someone elses point. "That doesn't make any sense :-[" awe, you poor befuddled child :-*
PAPASKULL: "What the hell is this even supposed to prove? That God isn't human? Good job. God works in mysterious ways and in way beyond our understanding of genius. Leaving slight but not definitive evidence that he doesn't exist sounds very smart to me. He roots out all the people who only see with their eyes."
no, that proves that the abstract idea of god was created by humans.
well the truth is that we will probably never know how it all began. The only thing im sure about is that many gods and religions have existed and disappeared throughout history and that this one is no exception. science, in contrast will continue to exist until humans become extinct. that is why i prefer science.
and just so u guys know im not a sour/bitter life hater or anything like that. (just in case somebody is assuming that i am) lol
WESTFALL "I do know that in 2001/2002 a professor of physics at UConn was one of the first to prove that energy leaves your body when you die. It goes along with the ideas of auras that surround your body. In fact, everything is electron based...perhaps the word matter rings a bell. Put your hands close together and notice how there is a warmth that you feel when they are close but not touching. This is the exact type of energy I'm talking about. I'm sorry that I can't site any of the specific books or online sources that I have read, but many metaphysical sites will state the same thing, if you're into that kind of stuff. However, its not that your energy goes into love and light BS like everyone wants to believe. If you want to think of balance, then you might be a little bit more on track."
westfall. the body produces heat, and heat is conducted by gas too (air), the heat you feel when you put your hands together is produced by your body. this heat is needed to be able to stay alive. yes, you are correct, heat is a form of energy.
we die our body stops functioning, consequetially it stops processing sources of energy and converting them to other forms of energy (like heat).
when we die, the heat is gone (homeothermia stops), because the cycle in our body fails. this equilibrium in our body is known as homeostasis.
"Energy" is a word that not many people understand, and it is a term that is frequently confused with "spirits".
Quote from: Blank Man on December 23, 2008, 09:03:10 AM
Oh and btw, faking confusion doesn't get you out of countering someone elses point.
i agree with that, i hate it how every time somebody makes a good argument, people intetionaly "misunderstand" it or just completely evade it. lol.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 23, 2008, 07:13:52 AM
QuoteUntill you explain... you're the ignorant one.
Other than that you're still ignorant because you think that if you type something ironic into a thread you are a bad ass.
Makes zero sense.
Quite right, you do make no sense Skull, if you don't explain something how can you expect people to take it with little more than a grain of salt. Lets take the idea of God, but call him Jelly Beans instead. I'm going to pray to Jelly Beans and Jelly Beans is going to listen to what I have to say. Jelly Beans in Omnipotent and Omnipresent, Jelly Beans created the world. Why does Jelly Beans do this? Well, Jelly Beans works in mysterious ways you see, beyond our understanding of genius.
It's all very fucking silly in my opinion.
There may be a God, there may not be. Who the fucks knows. If there is a God he isn't like anything written in the Bible or any other religious text.
The bigger question is, who the fuck cares. I've not really seen anything exclusivly good come from being a person of faith. It's kinda of pointless.
I can understand when people go to war over resources, land, freedom and the like. But killing because someone doesn't believe in the same invisible person in the sky as you is fucking nuts.
If there is a God, we are nothing to him. He takes a dump on a planet, and moves on without a 2nd thought.
Zedblade pwns us all with His awesomeness. All hail Zedblade. ;D
I do agree with most of what Zed is saying.
@ Roberto: what do you think heat is? It's all energy man. Everything breaks down into infinitely smaller particles. The same can be send that if things are infinitely small, then there must be infinitely big correct? All of it being energy, which can neither be created nor destroyed....sounds like matter too, which can neither be created nor destroyed.
QuoteEverything breaks down into infinitely smaller particles.
I disagree on that.
For example, time can't be broken down till infinity. Space AFAIK neither.
AFAIK, leptoms are the smallest particles and it's unlikely we'll find smaller ones, but that's partly what science is trying to figure out with the LHC.
Quote from: frvge on December 23, 2008, 07:09:16 PM
QuoteEverything breaks down into infinitely smaller particles.
I disagree on that.
For example, time can't be broken down till infinity. Space AFAIK neither.
AFAIK, leptoms are the smallest particles and it's unlikely we'll find smaller ones, but that's partly what science is trying to figure out with the LHC.
The LHC is going to do just that by finding the "god" particle. Things can easily be broken down infinitely. Just because we haven't gotten small enough to the "god" particle or beyond because we aren't there yet in terms of technology/science doesn't mean it's not happening. Things can easily be broken down smaller and smaller....take anything that is matter based or dark-matter based for example.
I don't know if you can consider "time" as part of matter. Time is under its own category because of how ridiculously unique it is. Time can be broken down into infinite amounts of random light photons. Einstein knew this and knew plenty leading up to the "god" particle. This is one of the main reasons why time is so hard to define because the light photons act at random. Space is made up of matter and holy-crap amounts of dark matter that we can't even see without using infrared. Even then we haven't had the chance to properly expand our knowledge on dark-matter because we aren't there yet.
You guys might be interested in the magnetic fields that are collapsing around the earth that keep the solar storms at bay most of the time.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081217-solar-breaches.html
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/16dec_giantbreach.htm?list164000
Zeno's Paradoxes:
Time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#The_dichotomy_paradox
Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#The_arrow_paradox
I could only have a glance at them because I have to run out, but both the space and time paradoxes dealt with infinity.
Yes, my point is that time and space can't be infinitly divided.
Quote from: Blank Man on December 23, 2008, 09:03:10 AM
Oh and btw, faking confusion doesn't get you out of countering someone elses point. "That doesn't make any sense :-[" awe, you poor befuddled child :-*
Man you're just fucking stupid dude. I was confused as to why you said I was ignorant for posting some stupid ironic phrase! That makes me ignorant? That makes zero sense. That does. You know what else it does? Proves to me that you're an idiot. I didn't evade anything. Quit twisting words, some people are actually believing you. You'll get caught in your own friggin mess eventually.
Good day.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 23, 2008, 09:28:22 AM
Quote from: Blank Man on December 23, 2008, 09:03:10 AM
Oh and btw, faking confusion doesn't get you out of countering someone elses point.
i agree with that, i hate it how every time somebody makes a good argument, people intetionaly "misunderstand" it or just completely evade it. lol.
I agree with that too. I even said it on this freaking thread. Unfortunately people today have no reading comprehension or are too lazy to check back and see that blank man took that out of context to try and down me. Unfortunately, he failed and is now appearing to be stupid. I said that it made zero sense that he tried to call me ignorant for posting something ironic. That's why he called me ignorant, and that's why I was confused. I was evading nothing. At all.
Good day to you too.
QuoteQuite right, you do make no sense Skull, if you don't explain something how can you expect people to take it with little more than a grain of salt. Lets take the idea of God, but call him Jelly Beans instead. I'm going to pray to Jelly Beans and Jelly Beans is going to listen to what I have to say. Jelly Beans in Omnipotent and Omnipresent, Jelly Beans created the world. Why does Jelly Beans do this? Well, Jelly Beans works in mysterious ways you see, beyond our understanding of genius.
It's all very fucking silly in my opinion.
Again, this just goes with the reading comprehension thing. I'll explain whatever I can. However, when someone (who is an idiot I might add) takes something out of context and twists it to his liking to make himself look good, and people follow him without getting the details of the statement, it saddens me. It's laziness. Don't be sheep.
You can call God whatever you wish. Doesn't make him any less real. It only sounds funny if you give God a funny name, don't be dumb. What is so illogical about God? I'm sure you'll find the same problems with the big bang, or whatever else.
Oh, and when science finally runs out of things it can explain, look for me. I'll be the guy waving the "I told you so!" sign. Many scientists already know this. The more they look at things. The more they see how perfectly imperfect it all is, the more it becomes obvious to them that there is no possible way that it happened by chance.
Quoteno, that proves that the abstract idea of god was created by humans.
well the truth is that we will probably never know how it all began. The only thing im sure about is that many gods and religions have existed and disappeared throughout history and that this one is no exception. science, in contrast will continue to exist until humans become extinct. that is why i prefer science.
and just so u guys know im not a sour/bitter life hater or anything like that. (just in case somebody is assuming that i am) lol
I think we will know. Eventually. And again, you are thinking that Science cannot ever have anything to do with God. In fact it's quite the opposite. The goal of science is not to disprove God, but to find out how he works. Investigating the universe that a God created using science is the best way to do it, obviously. I love science. Hell yeah. Learn it all, all that we can anyway. It only makes it all the more obvious.
Quote"Do the research and stop getting these broad ideas in your head that everything falls into your definitions." + "Being an atheist means you don't believe in any God/gods." = Contradiction. and LOL
Atheist.
A - without
Theist - God
Ever hear of monotheism? One god?
Polytheism? Many gods?
now, atheism.
No God.
Atheism can also be the rejection of theism. No matter what though, the definition is the definition. Show me one atheist that believes in God.
It's not my definition, it's THE definition.
More idiocy Blank Man? You're losing credibility, and fast.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 23, 2008, 07:29:22 AM
On an unrelated note, does the thought of hell existing ever scare you? I'm in no way trying to scare you into Christianity, not what I'm about, but I often wonder what atheists think about the possible consequences of their actions. Does an intelligent creator really seem that illogical and that impossible?
I am somewhere between agnostic and atheist, and I am not afraid of death because:
1) Only recently has hell been imagined* as a place of fire and pain, in the original manuscripts hell was only being away from God - and if God is as described in the Bible, I would not want to spend my afterlife with Him. The Old Testament, for example, has several very violent points. And according to the New Testament, Jesus said that he was sent to us to enforce the old laws. So then, if hell is distance from God, I would rather be in Hell than in Heaven. In addition, I don't believe that an almighty God would punish infinitly for finite sin.
2) If the atheist presumtion is correct, there is no suh thing as a soul, and our very consciousness ceases to exist at the point of death, then I will not be there to worry about it.
Nope, sorry Kevin Bacon wasn't in foot loose. No, he wasn't you lose. Nope, you're wrong, look it up. Nope no No nO NONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO HEEYAH HEEYAH HEYAAHHHHHH
Real funny. ::)
Sorry, you can't have mature conversations with the big boys. I apologize for getting so angry in that last post but REAL ignorance sometimes grinds my gears.
i think that heaven and hell were invented only to scare people and make them more controlable.
then the medieval illustration took place and blah blah blah.
Now you are speaking like that Jehova's Witness (cult) down my street. "Hell doesn't exist! God told us it exists to scare us into being good little angels!" Well damn, that sure worked didn't it?
We'll all know, hopefully not soon.
People are stupid. Despite the fact that most of us (in the U.S. anyway) believe hell exists in some form, all of us still sin. I sin. The beauty of what God has given us (the ability to be forgiven) is that it makes up for human stupidity. We would all be going to hell if it weren't for this.
I just want you to think about our universe. Think about the various theories of its origin. Do they all really make any sense w/o something behind the scenes making it all happen? Honestly. The big bang? On its own? Seriously? Hard to grasp, hard to believe, harder to believe that it just happened. If you seriously think that all there is to our universe is observable data, numbers, etc, take a step back. Breathe in and out. Do you really think that you (a bunch of matter) should be alive right now if all there is to our universe's origin is a gigantic explosion? Hmmm...
Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 24, 2008, 02:44:50 AM
People are stupid.
You're not Neo... You're not the one. You are sitting infront of your computer typing smart ass comments then with a smurk clicking the post button. Everybody has their flaws. Everybody has their beliefs. Stop trying to prove everyone wrong, then ending your post with the word "ignorance".
Quote from: Blank Man on December 24, 2008, 03:17:20 AM
Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Oh, blank man. You're sooo right. ;)
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 24, 2008, 02:44:50 AM
People are stupid.
You're not Neo... You're not the one. You are sitting infront of your computer typing smart ass comments then with a smurk clicking the post button. Everybody has their flaws. Everybody has their beliefs. Stop trying to prove everyone wrong, then ending your post with the word "ignorance".
No shit. People in general. People do stupid things. Me included. Stop twisting my words, or better yet, get some reading comprehension abilities.
sorry... having some trouble interpreting "people are stupid". What does it mean, god?
I just told you. People are stupid, people make mistakes, you just freaking took the words right out of my mouth in your last post but you insult me because of your terrible reading comprehension.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 24, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
QuoteQuite right, you do make no sense Skull, if you don't explain something how can you expect people to take it with little more than a grain of salt. Lets take the idea of God, but call him Jelly Beans instead. I'm going to pray to Jelly Beans and Jelly Beans is going to listen to what I have to say. Jelly Beans in Omnipotent and Omnipresent, Jelly Beans created the world. Why does Jelly Beans do this? Well, Jelly Beans works in mysterious ways you see, beyond our understanding of genius.
It's all very fucking silly in my opinion.
You can call God whatever you wish. Doesn't make him any less real. It only sounds funny if you give God a funny name, don't be dumb. What is so illogical about God? I'm sure you'll find the same problems with the big bang, or whatever else.
Oh, and when science finally runs out of things it can explain, look for me. I'll be the guy waving the "I told you so!" sign. Many scientists already know this. The more they look at things. The more they see how perfectly imperfect it all is, the more it becomes obvious to them that there is no possible way that it happened by chance.
Just because you can't explain something it doesn't mean there's a God because like I've said before, it all keeps looping back to how it started, and what started that, it's infinite. I'm not being dumb by giving "him" a different name, the only reason it sounds logical to you is because your replacing the words 'Jelly Beans' with 'God'.
Trust me I do find problems with Scientific Theories, who even said I believe in them (I've also said this before too), but that doesn't mean, "So it must be a God...". I'm open to anything but the religion behind God is something I don't believe for better reasons than you do believe in it, which satisfies my needs. I know you've said before it wouldn't be a God if something else started it, and I think you should analyse your point, because it rings very true indeed.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is no logic behind the belief in him, and you can pull the 'God works in mysterious ways' crap as much as you want, but it's a very shit argument because in reality you know sweet fuck all, just like me, which is why I don't resign myself to a belief with no basis.
Reading all this religious thing in here i thought ill add my thoughts about it .
1st of all i would like to say that i am an atheist. Why am i an atheist ? To understand that , you need to understand my way of thinking a bit . I believe in science . Like one famous psychologist said ' We carry the weight of our childhood like a turtle carries it shell on its back ' meaning that we believe and what we were tought to believe. Different people understand similar things in different ways. It depends on different factors.
For example . I am 19 years old and i study law in The University of Tartu . Like probably anyone who studied law they were tought how Law came to be. How did law appear out of nowhere ? Well scientist describe it as this . First there was 'habit' then came 'moral' (Perhaps Moral Code would be a better name for this but i would call it moral further on) then came 'religion and faith' then came 'state and law' . To me religion is just a mechanism which in a given period of time helped to solve their problems , helped to understand the things they couldn't , helped them to solve problems of communicating between each other , helped them to become more organized , helped them to spread their moral to others. This might be a bit hard to understand so ill try to give an example starting from habit .
2 People come to a narrow bridge . They both come from different sides and when they meet at the center of the bridge they come to a moment when they need to decide how 1 of them passes the other . There are really a lot of ways of doing it . 1 of them can go back to the begining so the other one can just pass , also the other person can do so 2 , one can stand near the side and Visa-versa , one can hang from the side and Visa-versa , one can jump over the other one and Visa-versa , or just 2 of them fight to the death but what do you generally do ? It really depends on what you've been tought to do and when this action is repeated a lot of times it becomes a 'habit'.When a lot of this so called ' habits ' come together they create something which we call moral. And then came time for people to become more organized on larger scale thats is why they needed a way to spread their moral to others and thus ' Religion and Faith' appeared. But after some time large territories of same culture and also ( most of the time ) religion became countries or states . But religion doesn't really force you to follow a set of rules . It might name them but it doesn't make sure you follow them , so thus 'law' appeared .(In religion you won't get punished if you kill someone , yes you will go to hell but it will happen after you die , but law makes sure you get punished if it is discovered.[Death penalty or Life Sentance , etc ]) Law like religion in the past helps us to organize our lives to make it less ' chaotic '.
If you look at history it always happened so. First religion came to be in ancient period than the state and law appeared . Even when we wanted uh to ' Civilize or Conquer ' the ancient civilizations of Mayans , Incans etc etc etc . The first one to go in there were 'priest' or 'missionaries' for them to become acquainted to our cultures and 'moral' .
That is why to me 'religion and faith' is like an old mechanism . We have a better one now , so it will probably disappear in time like every thing which is old and in time will became useless . (Some processes take a lot of time like evolution and some are almost instant like an explosion or splitting of an atom )
QuoteJust because you can't explain something it doesn't mean there's a God because like I've said before, it all keeps looping back to how it started, and what started that, it's infinite. I'm not being dumb by giving "him" a different name, the only reason it sounds logical to you is because your replacing the words 'Jelly Beans' with 'God'.
I find it impossible to believe that science will eventually be able to solve everything. That last statement, ridiculous. God is the creator of our universe, the being pulling the strings of the universe, whatever. You're just putting a red rubber ball on his nose to make it sound goofy. Nice try.
QuoteTrust me I do find problems with Scientific Theories, who even said I believe in them (I've also said this before too), but that doesn't mean, "So it must be a God...". I'm open to anything but the religion behind God is something I don't believe for better reasons than you do believe in it, which satisfies my needs. I know you've said before it wouldn't be a God if something else started it, and I think you should analyse your point, because it rings very true indeed.
Don't undertstand your last sentence. I don't believe I said anything like that. If I did, please show me and I'll explain.
QuoteThe point I'm trying to make is that there is no logic behind the belief in him, and you can pull the 'God works in mysterious ways' crap as much as you want, but it's a very shit argument because in reality you know sweet fuck all, just like me, which is why I don't resign myself to a belief with no basis.
No basis? There's no basis behind most of the theories of the universe's origin. And the ones that do have a slight smidgen of possibility are impossible without something behind it. Science has been wrong in the past, and it will inevitably be wrong again, get your eggs out of just one basket. The Big Bang (which I know you are impartial to), is widely accepted even by those scientists who believe in God. That's the most illogical piece o' crap theory I've heard in a long time, by itself anyway. My point is that science and God are not mutually exclusive. Get a good mix. Try to combine theories and facts and look at things in a broad perspective. Limiting yourself to one view is not a good idea as you'll most likely miss out on about half of the truth.
I do not believe that God rolled up a ball of clay and plopped people on it. I do not believe that a huge explosion from nothing created the universe or that evolution "just started". The truth is starting to appear obvious. Perfection is found in our universe. The things that would appear imperfect coincide perfectly with the teachings of Christianity. I don't personally see that as coincedence. The one God, the Christian God, is THE God. But hey, if you prefer to worship Buddha or Allah or nothing then that's your choice and I will let that be. However as a Christian I feel that I have an underlying duty to spread the word of Christ. The teachings that are perfect and will remain perfect for all of humanity. Ahead of their time.
QuoteThe one God, the Christian God, is THE God
So the thousands of other Gods are false? Why is the Flying Spaghetti Monster less than your God? At least the FSM has a good explanation for gravity. And there's beer and hookers in Pastafarian Hell.
Arrogance to claim the truth on something that you absolutely have no proof of. Any disprove or not-so-positive things is being waived away with "god works in mysterious ways". At least science tries to find answers to explain stuff. Faiths just go: "Oh, we dont know, but the [insert book name] is always right, because it's written there. If it's not written there, it's right because either we say so, or because [insert god-name] works in mysterious ways]". Pathetic.
I love how like 1500 car-workers at General Motors (IIRC) lost their jobs, basically making a whole city useless. Then they pray for God's protection and shelter. Noobs, God thought you sucked so he took away your jobs by means of the recession. He made up his mind, now stop whining and find another goddamn job.
Don't you fucking listen, I don't have my eggs in one basket at all, I believe what I believe about creation of the universe whether it was mentioned in the bible or by a scientific theory, there's some morality I agree with in the bible, and then there's the majority of it which is clear lies. It appears to be you who has all his eggs in one basket, are you going to tell people who believe in Allah that they're wrong and the Christian god
is THE god because the bible says so and it must be true because Science can't prove it? Give me a fuckin break.
I'm putting a rubber ball on his nose to make
it sound goofy, quite right. Guess why, because if you apply the same rules to someone else, it makes it sound like silly bullshit (like you have just admitted).
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 24, 2008, 11:48:28 PM
You're just putting a red rubber ball on his (wtf.... - Stone.) nose to make it sound goofy. Nice try.
Thanks for complimenting my success. If there was something before a God (which there would have to be if
it exists) why would it choose to have
a god create a universe and create people and perfection? Why not do that itself? Surely
it couldn't have happened to
just be there? No - obviously not, just like how we can't
just be here, it's all a loop and any 'God' whether you believe in it religiously (hell no) or just
a Godlike form (possibly, who am I to say, we know nothing) has to have something to make it start, which undermines the theory of a God in the first place.
By the way I can't find where you said that thing about it wouldn't be a God if something else started it, but it's still true isn't it.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 25, 2008, 01:28:25 PM
Don't you fucking listen, I don't have my eggs in one basket at all, I believe what I believe about creation of the universe whether it was mentioned in the bible or by a scientific theory, there's some morality I agree with in the bible, and then there's the majority of it which is clear lies. It appears to be you who has all his eggs in one basket, are you going to tell people who believe in Allah that they're wrong and the Christian god is THE god because the bible says so and it must be true because Science can't prove it? Give me a fuckin break.
I approve this post.
I'm a non-believer, so I couldn't care less, but I agree on Stone's way of thinking.
If everyone would just think: "Someone believes what he wants to believe", the world would be a better place and we wouldn't be having this heated discussion (which is getting awfully close to a flamewar).
Quote from: LennardF1989 on December 25, 2008, 03:42:05 PM
If everyone would just think: "Someone believes what he wants to believe", the world would be a better place and we wouldn't be having this heated discussion (which is getting awfully close to a flamewar).
Quick, everyone sing kumbaya
Merry Fucking Christmas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guLKl3v7XFI&feature=related)
Too bad there are only those remakes on YouTube, what happened to the original...
Don't know. Search for a few minutes for the actual video, but it wasn't there :(
hey papaskull, how do u know hell exists?
cause you saw an old painting of hell in some art gallery or because u saw a painting of heaven in some church ceiling?
who ever lived to describe hell? who ever lived to tell about it. lol.
and guess what, the dude who painted those heaven and hell arts, was alive! so odds are that he hasnt been to any of those places.
heaven and hell are ideas created by man.
think about this for a second. (if you are an american), what if the Spaniards or the English hadnt conquered our homeland (im an american) and if they hadnt taught us amercan people, your current religion?
would you be giving the same vague arguments right now in this forum about some sun god or some moon god?
probably yes. all religions rely on the same vague arguments and sketchy explinations to sustain themselves and keep themselves in existance.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 26, 2008, 02:43:53 AM
hey papaskull, how do u know hell exists?
cause you saw an old painting of hell in some art gallery or because u saw a painting of heaven in some church ceiling?
who ever lived to describe hell? who ever lived to tell about it. lol.
and guess what, the dude who painted those heaven and hell arts, was alive! so odds are that he hasnt been to any of those places.
heaven and hell are ideas created by man.
think about this for a second. (if you are an american), what if the Spaniards or the English hadnt conquered our homeland (im an american) and if they hadnt taught us amercan people, your current religion?
would you be giving the same vague arguments right now in this forum about some sun god or some moon god?
probably yes. all religions rely on the same vague arguments and sketchy explinations to sustain themselves and keep themselves in existance.
watch the movie , the others , it talks about the 7 hells.
Well since there's a movie, it's obviously true.
Found the original:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6114487
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 26, 2008, 02:43:53 AM
hey papaskull, how do u know hell exists?
cause you saw an old painting of hell in some art gallery or because u saw a painting of heaven in some church ceiling?
who ever lived to describe hell? who ever lived to tell about it. lol.
and guess what, the dude who painted those heaven and hell arts, was alive! so odds are that he hasnt been to any of those places.
heaven and hell are ideas created by man.
think about this for a second. (if you are an american), what if the Spaniards or the English hadnt conquered our homeland (im an american) and if they hadnt taught us amercan people, your current religion?
would you be giving the same vague arguments right now in this forum about some sun god or some moon god?
probably yes. all religions rely on the same vague arguments and sketchy explinations to sustain themselves and keep themselves in existance.
I like the sun and the moon...got a problem? ;)
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 26, 2008, 02:43:53 AM
hey papaskull, how do u know hell exists?
cause you saw an old painting of hell in some art gallery or because u saw a painting of heaven in some church ceiling?
who ever lived to describe hell? who ever lived to tell about it. lol.
and guess what, the dude who painted those heaven and hell arts, was alive! so odds are that he hasnt been to any of those places.
heaven and hell are ideas created by man.
think about this for a second. (if you are an american), what if the Spaniards or the English hadnt conquered our homeland (im an american) and if they hadnt taught us amercan people, your current religion?
would you be giving the same vague arguments right now in this forum about some sun god or some moon god?
probably yes. all religions rely on the same vague arguments and sketchy explinations to sustain themselves and keep themselves in existance.
Didn't I say on this thread that I don't think hell/heaven look/feel like man's ideas of them? I thought I did. I was having the same conversation with another guy on a different site, guess it was there. Man can't even find out what Jesus looked like, how are we supposed to draw hell to a T? I have a feeling hell is much worse, and much different, than the cave-like flame engulfed hell we think of it as. This is the point. Heaven and hell are alternate universes described in the Bible. Man made up ideas OF heaven and hell, what they'd physically look like, but the heaven and hell thing is not man's idea. It is a God-given warning.
And this:
Quotewould you be giving the same vague arguments right now in this forum about some sun god or some moon god?
Gimme a friggin break. Like there wouldn't be science to prove that wrong in your alt. reality? We know now what the sun is, and what the moon is. You will never prove God to be non-existent and unfortunately never be able to prove him real. One day I believe we'll all see.
You ask for proof of God's existence, yet you provide none of your own to prove the contrary. It's all a matter of mindset. Yes, we all can see science. Yes, we should all accept science. What it comes down to is if we believe there is intelligence behind this science. The more I see this science, the more I see the intelligence behind it. For how incredibly fascinated atheists are by scientific discoveries they never stop and realize the perfection of it. They'll just accept that there's nothing to it. It gives off a slight scent of hypocrisy.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 25, 2008, 01:28:25 PM
Don't you fucking listen, I don't have my eggs in one basket at all, I believe what I believe about creation of the universe whether it was mentioned in the bible or by a scientific theory, there's some morality I agree with in the bible, and then there's the majority of it which is clear lies. It appears to be you who has all his eggs in one basket, are you going to tell people who believe in Allah that they're wrong and the Christian god is THE god because the bible says so and it must be true because Science can't prove it? Give me a fuckin break.
The majority of the bible is lies? Really? That's odd because the more they do scientific tests/investigations on the various stories/people in the bible, the more they find that is actually true! There were princes that the world believed did not exist that were mentioned in the bible. With more investigating, the geologists and such found that a lot of these people in the bible actually DID exist. A lot of the stories they test lead scientists to new discoveries in the history of our Earth. Yeah, guess I'm saying that the bible has contributed to our knowledge of the world today.
I'm putting a rubber ball on his nose to make it sound goofy, quite right. Guess why, because if you apply the same rules to someone else, it makes it sound like silly bullshit (like you have just admitted).
That's absolutely correct. It's called masking. Don't agree with something? No problem! Just make fun of it and it'll be all better! Where's the logic? Kind of like that thread below this one that screams OBAMA! I could make fun of Obama's name in order to make him sound like a terrorist to belittle him but it doesn't make him a terrorist. Apply that logic to you calling GOD something like jelly beans and you have no point. Doesn't make God sound silly, makes you sound silly because your argument goes nowhere except into the ground.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 24, 2008, 11:48:28 PM
You're just putting a red rubber ball on his (wtf.... - Stone.) nose to make it sound goofy. Nice try.
Thanks for complimenting my success. If there was something before a God (which there would have to be if it exists) why would it choose to have a god create a universe and create people and perfection? Why not do that itself? Surely it couldn't have happened to just be there? No - obviously not, just like how we can't just be here, it's all a loop and any 'God' whether you believe in it religiously (hell no) or just a Godlike form (possibly, who am I to say, we know nothing) has to have something to make it start, which undermines the theory of a God in the first place.
Well, what was before the matter that clumped together to form a gigantic universe-forming explosion? Nothing, right? See, all theories of the universe have a halting problem. What was before that? I agree with you, but I think I know the answer. God. Nothing was before him, the one exception to the man-made-rules of physics. I don't think God has to fit himself in with the rules that we made ourselves.
By the way I can't find where you said that thing about it wouldn't be a God if something else started it, but it's still true isn't it.
None of our minds can comprehend what else besides simple nature or an intelligent creator could create our universe.
Papa skull, you have NO evidence for supporting god but theorys like the Big Bang disprove god if they are real and we DO have at least some supporting evidence for those arguments.
Also, he doesn't mean Moon god like that. You could be muslim etc and you would still think your religion is right, all he means is just because YOU believe it, that means nothing, because you really had no choice in your decision. I'm willing to bet you were raised by a religious family and that you didn't choose YOUSELF to be that way, it's been forced upon you and you cannot see that. I was brought up religiously (the school and the works) and just one day looked at the myself and what I believed in and found the converse to make much more sense.
Also, how can you believe in God when so many other religions are the same? It's faaar more likely than you know that all religion is based off of astrology (look it up) Sun positions as the rebirth of Jesus and the rebirth of the sun, the "three wise men" is a contellation pointing to another star (with a name _LIKE_ mary) from the sun. Also, you do realise how much your bible has been changed? The romans merged it with Pagans AGGGGGEESS ago, which is why your day for the birth of christ is also the sun festival for pagans when he was "supposedly" born around march time.
So how many people have been converted by this thread?
Quote from: Tidenburg on December 27, 2008, 02:18:44 AM
Papa skull, you have NO evidence for supporting god but theorys like the Big Bang disprove god if they are real and we DO have at least some supporting evidence for those arguments.
Oh no. They absolutely do not prove he does not exist. What's with people thinking that the big bang and such are theories to end all theories? No. There's something behind the big bang. It's much more foolish to believe a big bang happened from nothing than to believe there is a God behind the supposed big bang.
Also, he doesn't mean Moon god like that. You could be muslim etc and you would still think your religion is right, all he means is just because YOU believe it, that means nothing, because you really had no choice in your decision. I'm willing to bet you were raised by a religious family and that you didn't choose YOUSELF to be that way, it's been forced upon you and you cannot see that. I was brought up religiously (the school and the works) and just one day looked at the myself and what I believed in and found the converse to make much more sense.
I know what he means. He was trying to make me out to be an idiot, or someone who rejects scientific evidence. Quite the contrary. I can tell that THE God is not the God that Muslims or what have you will make you believe. Our God is not the -get on your knees and praise me 10x per day and kill yourself in my name- kind of god. I believe that's foolish and was just a man-made chunk of crap. Our God is beyond genius, forgiving, and wants you to value life (yours and others)... No wife beating allowed or encouraged by the Christian God. No virgins in heaven for you to bang when you kill yourself in the name of "the creator". The morals taught by God are the morals that our world strives to live by, but fails anyway. Everything just seems to add up.
And no, I was soaked in Christianity while I was growing up. Yes, my parents are Christian. However, we never go to church, we hardly, if ever read the bible, so no. I'm open to everything even if it may contradict what it says in the bible. And again, the bible does have moral stories, metaphors, symbols, etc. For example the area of Soddom and Gommorah was ACTUALLY destroyed by plummeting-firey-fallout from a mile long meteor, but in the bible it says a pillar of fire. You can't take it word for word and completely run with it as the 100% truth. Of course not. I would say I was more raised with Christian morals than as a Christian. Yes, I've learned to accept that Jesus Christ is the savior and I wasn't forced.
Also, how can you believe in God when so many other religions are the same? It's faaar more likely than you know that all religion is based off of astrology (look it up) Sun positions as the rebirth of Jesus and the rebirth of the sun, the "three wise men" is a contellation pointing to another star (with a name _LIKE_ mary) from the sun. Also, you do realise how much your bible has been changed? The romans merged it with Pagans AGGGGGEESS ago, which is why your day for the birth of christ is also the sun festival for pagans when he was "supposedly" born around march time.
read previous paragraph. I know the bible can't be taken word for word.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 27, 2008, 02:12:53 AM
The majority of the bible is lies? Really? That's odd because the more they do scientific tests/investigations on the various stories/people in the bible, the more they find that is actually true! There were princes that the world believed did not exist that were mentioned in the bible. With more investigating, the geologists and such found that a lot of these people in the bible actually DID exist. A lot of the stories they test lead scientists to new discoveries in the history of our Earth. Yeah, guess I'm saying that the bible has contributed to our knowledge of the world today.
I think most was the keyword, may not be the best wording I have actually used, so I'll change that. Lets say the premise of the bible shall we. Now, sure the bible has stories, and who's to say some of these stories don't have historical background? Nobody who cannot disprove them, since we actually CAN, at this present time, prove that some of the stories in the Bible are true or false in certain ways. However, your telling me I'm going to go to a bad place if I do bad things. What if I tell you that I'll become a bag of Mars bars if I do good things, and then become a watermelon if I do bad things? YOU HAVE NO PROOF WHATSOEVER TO SAY I'M WRONG, OKAY? Come on why put all your eggs in one basket with the bible, I mean come on, do you have more proof Heaven and Hell exist than I do with my theory about Mars bars and Watermelons? What if I told you hell doesn't exist, I mean come on, Gods a forgiving guy. Tell me how forgiving he is before you tell me he would send me to hell if I killed someone. Oh wait damn it yeah, you don't know.
That's absolutely correct. It's called masking. Don't agree with something? No problem! Just make fun of it and it'll be all better! Where's the logic? Kind of like that thread below this one that screams OBAMA! I could make fun of Obama's name in order to make him sound like a terrorist to belittle him but it doesn't make him a terrorist. Apply that logic to you calling GOD something like jelly beans and you have no point. Doesn't make God sound silly, makes you sound silly because your argument goes nowhere except into the ground.
Now if I used your logic I'm afraid I'd be retarded. Lets apply my logic, sense. Here, let me explain it. You say God does all these very far fetched things like sending me to Heaven or Hell when I die, watching over me to give me guidance, started the whole world, and that nothing came before him. As soon as I apply those rules to Jelly Beans, HOLY SHIT I'M MASKING! Your logic takes it all like this, Obama is a terrorist! How silly would that be to say if you can prove otherwise. We know what Terrorists are, just like we know who Obama is. However we have exactly the same rules and beliefs about Jelly Beans and God, they just have different names. However, the god Jelly Beans doesn't exist because his name isn't God. I mean, does it sound silly to you or something? Now when we're talking about masking, don't try and change MY logic to yours to make it seem retarded, because you don't have logic that can be applied to the situation, which doesn't really surprise me.
Well, what was before the matter that clumped together to form a gigantic universe-forming explosion? Nothing, right? See, all theories of the universe have a halting problem. What was before that? I agree with you, but I think I know the answer. God. Nothing was before him, the one exception to the man-made-rules of physics. I don't think God has to fit himself in with the rules that we made ourselves.
Your such a dick. I've already said I think it all loops, that's all I believe it can do and there's some very good logic behind that. Something would have to cause these things to happen. What I would actually like to believe is that maybe, in a different world we could have rules that made sense, so we could explain these things, I really would. However, that's simply not possible. Prove me wrong. Your whole argument there is that these theories can't just have nothing before them, and I agree, but why is this God you speak of any different to that? How was it just there? Can you prove that? We may well have man-made-rules of physics, but guess what, they make a lot more sense than a man-made-story-book ever will. Please stop ignoring my arguments to try and make your points seem valid.
None of our minds can comprehend what else besides simple nature or an intelligent creator could create our universe.
That does not mean there is a God. That means I do not know how the world started. So guess what, I'm not going to try and make something up, I'm not going to chase a dead end. I only take to me what can be proven and although you may say it all has to start somehow, that has to start as well. The logic of God having no beginning is retarded I'm afraid, everything has to have a start, which is why nobody will ever prove how EVERYTHING started. Your bullshit about our minds not being able to compherend something, only makes your point weaker, much like every word you type.
So yeah, I think we've came to a pretty good conclusion about who's argument has the basis here, I think we can end this now.
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on December 27, 2008, 05:06:42 AM
So how many people have been converted by this thread?
lol...this is why the whole discussion is a fart in the wind.
The belief in god is completely based on the personal spiritual experience with ones self. The experience justifies the belief. Withouht such an experience, a belief is either blind faith that is "conditioned" by education, conformity, and the inability or prohibition of freedom of thought (religious fundamentalism) OR it leads to a completly cerebral logic that if it is not experienced or can be scientifically explained it cannot be spiritual (athiesm).
I certainly believe in god and christ, but think the Catholic church is evil (in the historicaly fucking humanity up sense of the word), and the protestant translation is equally messed up. So I can respect Athiests attacking these organizations and reminding us of how messed it up the whole bag of nonsense is. But where athiesm fails is making the presumption that just because some idiots believe in some nonsense...therefore EVERYONE that believes in god is an idiot. This is a generalisation, and is the same kind of arrogance that religious fundamentalist fall into. "I am right, you are wrong"
Kebab just joined Zed and Mic in the ranks of Awesome. Yay. Almost our whole Dev team is Awesome now.
QuoteOh no. They absolutely do not prove he does not exist. What's with people thinking that the big bang and such are theories to end all theories? No. There's something behind the big bang. It's much more foolish to believe a big bang happened from nothing than to believe there is a God behind the supposed big bang.
Ermm most retarded argument ever?
So it's "stupid" to believe the Big Bang (an explosion of energy) happened from nothing but to believe that some all-powerful being formed out of nothing is totally logical? Read what I said about looking at your own beliefs ;)
Quote
But where athiesm fails is making the presumption that just because some idiots believe in some nonsense...therefore EVERYONE that believes in god is an idiot. This is a generalisation, and is the same kind of arrogance that religious fundamentalist fall into. "I am right, you are wrong"
And where you fail is making the presumption that just because some idiots believe every religious person is stupid that every Athiest believes all religious people are stupid ;D
QuoteKebab just joined Zed and Mic in the ranks of Awesome. Yay. Almost our whole Dev team is Awesome now.
Ha, I didn't read the whole post but if that's just because they're religious then seriously, respect--
Quote from: frvge on December 27, 2008, 05:17:50 PM
Kebab just joined Zed and Mic in the ranks of Awesome. Yay. Almost our whole Dev team is Awesome now.
How am I not up there?
@KEBABQuoteThis is a generalisation
and what about this:
QuoteCatholic church is evil
Isn't that a generalisation ?
I mean, I keep meeting people who say that they believe in God but they don't go to church and basically hate it. That's totally stupid since the only way to
fully experience this religion is to do it with church's help. You say that you
believe in God and Christ so you probably know that it's not enough to just say "I believe" and that you must stay in solid contact with God. I wonder how you do that if you don't go to church.
Also, if you say you "believe", you must have some knowledge about the Christ and the whole religion, you obviously got this knowledge from church (or from your parents who got it from church). If the church is evil, how can you say that you believe in something that comes from it ?
Let me also say that people I meet usually use the "church is evil" argument to justify their laziness when they simply have "better things" to do than just go to church.
@ROBERTOQuotehey papaskull, how do u know hell exists?
Catholics believe in it. If a person says he knows something about the religion that hasn't been confirmed scientifically he means that his belief is strong enough to say he's sure of something.
Quotewho ever lived to tell about it. lol.
and guess what, the dude who painted those heaven and hell arts, was alive! so odds are that he hasnt been to any of those places.
Bible gives facts about hell or heaven and that's the source. Obviously none of these artists was able to see it before death but they painted as they imagine it basing on words about punishment or reward for good life. Isn't that pretty obvious ?
Quote from: neth on December 27, 2008, 09:38:52 PM
@KEBAB
QuoteThis is a generalisation
and what about this:
QuoteCatholic church is evil
Isn't that a generalisation ?
Isn't it (evil), though? Find me one that doesn't ask for money for God. I'm catholic btw, I just forget to go to the church.
EDIT: I'm not even gonna start about the priest orgies and everything else on the middle age that went directly against everything that they said - and still say.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on December 26, 2008, 04:07:26 PM
Found the original:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6114487
very funny parody of religion...
how cool would it be to know the truth tomorrow
and see how religious poeple from all different religions all over the world start flipping over and having some kind of catastrophic post-traumatic disorder and turn into zombies
and we atheists have to live the videogame story of left 4 dead !
or what if its the other way around! holy crap!
Neth:
Catholic church is a single entity...so to call it evil is not a generalisation. And to even say this would at one point in history would be enough to have me executed (just to point out how messed up it is).
Claiming that all christians, or catholic priests are evil IS a generalisation and would certainly be false.
Like i said, the belief in god is a personal experience, and any organisation, institution, or another individual has absolutely no authority over that experience.
Roberto,
The nature of fundamentalist belief is to adapt the belief, not to give it up. This has nothing to do with god btw. Scientists will also change their beliefs if their theories prove to be wrong.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on December 27, 2008, 10:00:08 PM
Find me one that doesn't ask for money for God.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103949 ;D
@Kebab
ok, so give me examples of this evil referring to the whole institution.
That's not that hard... Inquisition comes to mind.
Quote from: frvge on December 28, 2008, 12:43:51 PM
That's not that hard... Inquisition comes to mind.
Easier than farting.
QuoteClaiming that all christians, or catholic priests are evil IS a generalisation and would certainly be false.
These are all bundled up into the Catholic church. Therefore, saying that the Catholic church is evil is justifying that all that are involved are evil....which would be a generalization.
Quote from: frvge on December 28, 2008, 12:43:51 PM
That's not that hard... Inquisition comes to mind.
or everything any church has been about for the past...oh I don't know....since the beginning of church. It's a selfish ploy at obtaining power through the eyes of this invisible man I created.
I don't think we could ever consciously understand what life is all about. Only thing you can do is play it out and enjoy what you have.
Quote from: frvge on December 28, 2008, 12:43:51 PM
That's not that hard... Inquisition comes to mind.
or everything any church has been about for the past...oh I don't know....since the beginning of church. It's a selfish ploy at obtaining power through the eyes of this invisible man I created.
I don't think we could ever consciously understand what life is all about. Only thing you can do is play it out and enjoy what you have.
Smartest idea I've heard you say, Westfall. But sadly, it seems to conclude the thread.
Whether you believe in predestination, freewill, atheism, or anything else, it makes more sense to "play it out."
Agreed.
Quote from: Westfall on December 28, 2008, 09:33:31 PM
I don't think we could ever consciously understand what life is all about. Only thing you can do is play it out and enjoy what you have.
Quote from: frvge on December 28, 2008, 12:43:51 PM
That's not that hard... Inquisition comes to mind.
The Catholic church has said many times that they regret what was done by the inqusition, they are sorry about it etc. It seems to be an easy example of how church is evil but it was about 300 years ago and if people remember things like this and are unable to forgive them, how can they for example not hate all German nation for what was done during the war. Thing is, many people want to remember only things that are suitable with their outlook.
You say that Church is evil because they did bad things hundreds of years ago ? Hell, I say citizens of Holland and Austria should die because many of their ancestors collaborated with Hitler and killed hundred of thousands of jews. I bet people in Holland don't talk much about how eager some of them were to join the SS troops, hmm ?
Obviously you can't blame today's people for what was done so much time ago as well as you can't blame today's church for what was done even earlier.
More examples of how evil the church is, please.
Why?
God kills kittens when people ask stupid questions => Christians are evil??
More examples?
Basically banning condoms in HIV-infected African countries.
Westfall, the Catholic Church is an institution just as any government is. Criticizing a government is not criticizing the citizens.
About the Church:
Just recently, it was proven the Church was actively covering up Priest pedophiles. On top of that, the Pope said it was an American thing, when i have friends and family which were raised in european catholic schools that were molested or witnessed molestation by Priests. The differance between europe and USA is that europe is predominantly catholic, so attacking the church is far more difficult. This has been going on for hundreds of years.
There is more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Catholic_Church
but there is lot more then that -namely the involvements in various Wars.
Here is one about how the wartime Pope was supportive of Hitler.
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99oct/9910pope.htm
@ KEBABQuoteJust recently, it was proven the Church was actively covering up Priest pedophiles.
It is not an institutional problem but a problem of only a few people. Even if some of bishops were covering up these cases you can't say church is responsible for it as an institution because when you have as huge organisation as you have here you can't expect every single member of it to be saint.
Quotethe Catholic Church is an institution just as any government is.
It is an institution but not like any other government. They care mainly about the moral side of life, so they shouldn't be treated like ordinary governments.
@ FRVGEQuoteBasically banning condoms in HIV-infected African countries.
Answering such statements has no point because You, as an atheist, have different moral outlook and things you consider to be evil, may be considered good by me. That's why I can mainly discuss about accusations with Catholics here, cause I generally know what their moral values are. I still respect your point of view, though.
You think not helping to cure one of the most deadly viruses in the world is not evil? IMO, it's close to giving orders for mass-murder. And I don't know of any morality that would say that's good.
Not using condoms is catholically acceptible, if everything is fine with the health-care system and there are plenty of alternatives that work. In Africa, that situation unfortunately does not exist, so the rules for the Western world shouldn't apply to Africa.
QuoteWestfall, the Catholic Church is an institution just as any government is. Criticizing a government is not criticizing the citizens.
Funny that to this day there still has been no separation of church and state. Also, government is not belief or faith system. Pending the types of government, people are selected by the people or they gain power through their bloodline. Popes get appointed by a group of people too, but that is to find the leader who interprets what god is saying to us. Let's remember that church and state are supposed to be treated as 2 separate things now.
Quote
It is not an institutional problem but a problem of only a few people.
Seemed like a nice chunk more than a few people who were molesting little boys. But yea, they should be telling you the word of god.
QuoteIt is an institution but not like any other government. They care mainly about the moral side of life, so they shouldn't be treated like ordinary governments.
they shouldn't be treated like government at all...what is discussed in the church should have NO effect on how the government is run.
QuoteAnswering such statements has no point because You, as an atheist, have different moral outlook and things you consider to be evil, may be considered good by me.
So you're for the idea of no conception to fight disease? Because a book written by some guys should interpret your life for you? I hope you beat your women them and make them your slaves. OH OH, and when you have children, if one is a girl you can offer her to some of your guests because it was hospitable. But I, a non-athiest and non-jesus lover, must lack in my moral values.
I'm not trying to be rude, just showing you that things can get twisted on both sides.
Do any of you guys think church will fizzle out?
Neth, I beg to differ that that pedophilia in the church is only with a "few people" when there are hundreds of victims just in the America cases, and hundreds more if you consider globally....without mentioning the hundreds of years this has been going on.
That is reason enough to hold the church responsible, and should be good enough to condemn and to question other values of the church.
Sure Church and State are supposed to be seperate, but it does not remove the influence of church over state, or a devout and religious head of state.
When I was saying that the Church is like any other government, i was saying this merely to point out that criticizing the church is not stereotyping the millions of people that follow the church, just as criticizing a governement, is not criticizing the citizens.
Followers of a religion vary greatly in how serious they take their religion, and how much they let their religion control their life as opposed to guide their life.
But i dont see the point in holding back on judging anyone or institution that presumes to take moral athourity.
I think this thread deserves a paraphrase of some of the lines in a short story my good friend wrote in 8th grade (circa 1997):
"Dennis Rodman is God.
Dennis Rodman cross-dresses because God has no real gender.
Why do you think Rodman is the all-time rebound and defensive leader? That's because no one can match God's awesome powers.
Do you think it's a coincidence that both the Earth and a Basketball are round?
We all know that God likes to test people. Well, Dennis Rodman routinely talks trash on the courts, and even kicked a camera man in the nuts. He is always trying to test people."
Believe it.
QuoteBut i dont see the point in holding back on judging anyone or institution that presumes to take moral athourity.
When I took sociology in college, the going belief among them was that church was created solely to exercise moral authority beyond the law. Failing that, we have mental health institutions.
Where can I donate money for Dennis Rodman?
After all, all all-powerful (lots of all, lolz) gods need money to survive, and followers.
Come on. Most money goes to the church or charities. It's not going TO God, it's going toward what we think God wants it to go to. Give me a break frvge. BUT, I do agree that there are some "religions" (lol) out there that are just money hungry bastards trying to hypnotize. They definitely can give a bad name to the religions that only want to do good things.
Scientology ring a bell? Jehova's Witness? Sheesh.
i didnt know that church leaders banned condoms in africa.
its like banning life-vests in a childrens pool in some water-theme park
yeah. hopefully papaskull will not kill her daugther by throwing rocks at her when he finds out she isnt a virgin anymore.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 29, 2008, 10:19:22 PM
Come on. Most money goes to the church or charities. It's not going TO God, it's going toward what we think God wants it to go to. Give me a break frvge. BUT, I do agree that there are some "religions" (lol) out there that are just money hungry bastards trying to hypnotize. They definitely can give a bad name to the religions that only want to do good things.
Scientology ring a bell? Jehova's Witness? Sheesh.
Yes, because by the power of the priests, bishops, archbishops, and the pope....they speak FOR GOD and they know exactly where the money should go because he whispered in their ears. The money goes to keeping the church open and to pay your priests for his hard work in cleaning your soul of your sins in the booth you 2 go in...because god gave him the power.
However, some churches (Methodist rings a bell) use money to do outside programs and continue youth groups, donations, etc. The Catholic church wants your money because it is your duty on this planet to give the money to the church...cuz God said so....
so it goes towards what we think God wants it to alright...
To Papa Skull.
Previously said by you.
''He was trying to make me out to be an idiot, or someone who rejects scientific evidence. Quite the contrary. I can tell that THE God is not the God that Muslims or what have you will make you believe. Our God is not the -get on your knees and praise me 10x per day and kill yourself in my name- kind of god. I believe that's foolish and was just a man-made chunk of crap. Our God is beyond genius, forgiving, and wants you to value life (yours and others)... No wife beating allowed or encouraged by the Christian God. No virgins in heaven for you to bang when you kill yourself in the name of "the creator". The morals taught by God are the morals that our world strives to live by, but fails anyway. Everything just seems to add up. ''
First of all you can't say that THE god of the Christians is that much different OR better from The god of the Muslims. Christians also used to be ' GOD SAYS YOU NEED TO WORSHIP 10X TIMES A DAY OR YOU GO TO HELL' or ' Killing an infidel is not a sin , it is a path to heaven ' . The last one is actually a true saying during the 10th-13th centuries when Christians 'spread' ( ahem mostly in a very BLOODY way ) their believes . Christians did burn innocent people because they were 'witches' or 'warlocks' or 'magicians' etc.
Oh now you will try to say that it was a long time ago and that its not the God who ordered those bloody witch hunts and the infamous crusades and the Church said 'Come on guys , we are sorry!'. But then again , its not the god that orders Muslims to go kill 'infidels' and calls for a Jihad .As the Bible , the Koran is also a book which was written by mortal people so not in any way the actions of the current generation prove that THE MUSLIM GOD is not the 'right' God. Muslim might also say in the future ' Oh we are sorry for kinda killing you infidels , forgive us okay ?' But that won't change the fact that both Christianity and the Muslim religion were used to kill innocent people . Oh and by the way , crimes against humanity have no time frame( Its hard to say this in English. It means that it doesn't matter when it happened , you can still be charged and found guilty , depends on the evidence ) , so i would be happy if someone charges the 'church' with violations of human rights .
You know , actually the Muslim religion is more convincing to me than Christianity. Just think about it ? How many Christian interpretations of the holy Bible are there ? The old Testament , The new Testament , King Jameses Testament , Orthodox Bible(it is a bit different than the catholic one or the protestant one) , not to mention the 'crazy' new 'christian' churches which have appeared lately (around 1-90 years old) .
Compared to that , the Muslim religion has only 3 Koran interpretations . The Shiit Koran(The old Koran) , The Sunit Koran(The new Koran ) and the Vohabit Koran ( The terrorists Koran ). If i remember correctly Shiit is the old one and Sunit is the new one but i don't remember for sure , so i might be wrong on this .
So 3 interpretations against around 7 or more ( i really don't know all the wacky christian branches and their absurd bibles ) . I would say that Mr. Muslim doesn't change his views on his religion every 200 years or so which probably makes it more believable and the Muslim god a bit more better in a way compared to the Christian one .
Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 30, 2008, 08:01:10 AM
i didnt know that church leaders banned condoms in africa.
its like banning life-vests in a childrens pool in some water-theme park
Same differance, but Catholicism banns the use of condoms globally. The church believes it is unnatural, and therefore a sin. So if the pope says this, all the priests are required to say it as well. It has nothing do with Africa really. But there is a real motivation in this. Namely, for a religion to survive it needs to "breed".
But on that note, there are a number of barbaric practices in Africa based on superstitions. A big one is female circumcision.
Female Circumcision? Male circumcision is bad enough, holy fuck.
I love how condoms and gays are unnatural but they'd have no problem flying in an aircraft, breathing underwater with a scuba suit and humans ever colonised another planet you could bet your ass they would go out there to preach. The unnatural arguement is just rediculous, there is barely an ounce of "natural" left in our everyday lives.
it's not that they are unnatural, they're just mentally ill people that should be given help.
Quote from: neth
I mean, I keep meeting people who say that they believe in God but they don't go to church and basically hate it. That's totally stupid since the only way to fully experience this religion is to do it with church's help. You say that you believe in God and Christ so you probably know that it's not enough to just say "I believe" and that you must stay in solid contact with God. I wonder how you do that if you don't go to church.
If the only way to fully experience religion is to go to church, why is there Christians that have converted to other religions?
Quote from: neth
The Catholic church has said many times that they regret what was done by the inqusition, they are sorry about it etc. It seems to be an easy example of how church is evil but it was about 300 years ago and if people remember things like this and are unable to forgive them, how can they for example not hate all German nation for what was done during the war. Thing is, many people want to remember only things that are suitable with their outlook.
You say that Church is evil because they did bad things hundreds of years ago ? Hell, I say citizens of Holland and Austria should die because many of their ancestors collaborated with Hitler and killed hundred of thousands of jews. I bet people in Holland don't talk much about how eager some of them were to join the SS troops, hmm ?
Obviously you can't blame today's people for what was done so much time ago as well as you can't blame today's church for what was done even earlier.
The difference between the German nation and the Catholic church is that germany doesn't keep using the same ethics and moral codes that they used during the Holocaust. The Catholic church, on the other hand, is still using the Bible's morals, the same that were used during the inquisitions, the crusade, the countless executions of "witches" and "heretics," the list goes on.
Quote from: neth
it's not that they are unnatural, they're just mentally ill people that should be given help.
No, they're not. There's not a shred of scientific proof that being gay is an illness, it is only a lame excuse used by religious people who are so damned conservative that they're afraid of what they don't know.
Quote from: neth on December 31, 2008, 05:15:44 PM
it's not that they are unnatural, they're just mentally ill people that should be given help.
wow.....you're an idiot if that's in reference to homosexuals. In fact you're just one more cause to the problem.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 31, 2008, 05:37:58 PM
If the only way to fully experience religion is to go to church, why is there Christians that have converted to other religions?
what ?
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 31, 2008, 05:37:58 PM
The difference between the German nation and the Catholic church is that germany doesn't keep using the same ethics and moral codes that they used during the Holocaust. The Catholic church, on the other hand, is still using the Bible's morals, the same that were used during the inquisitions, the crusade, the countless executions of "witches" and "heretics," the list goes on.
So ? They don't murder people any more since 300 years, so saying it is the same church is simply stupid.
BTW in last elections German neonazistic party got over 10% to the local parliament in one of the lands.
Quote from: Cyntrox
No, they're not. There's not a shred of scientific proof that being gay is an illness, it is only a lame excuse used by religious people
Hold on pal, you can't say homosexuality is natural, You know why ? The main purpose of sex is reproduction. That's right, reproduction, not pleasure. It's natural for all mammals that 2 genders work together so they can start new life. Is is possible when two guys stick penises into each others asses ? No, it's not possible, it can bring them nothing but pleasure and that's why it is not natural, so please spare me this politically correct bullshit and face the truth. The FACT is, sex of the same genders is as much productive as sex with trees, children or dead bodies - absolutely non-productive and that's why there is no reason why not to call it perversion.
Here's my superb scientific proof. Now you try to prove me that homosexuality is something different to the above mentioned perversions.
------------
QuoteIn fact you're just one more cause to the problem.
hmm ?
Quote from: neth on December 31, 2008, 06:48:42 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 31, 2008, 05:37:58 PM
If the only way to fully experience religion is to go to church, why is there Christians that have converted to other religions?
what ?
If the church is the ultimate answer to getting a religious experience, how come some people have left the christianity for other religions?
Quote from: nethQuote from: Cyntrox on December 31, 2008, 05:37:58 PM
The difference between the German nation and the Catholic church is that germany doesn't keep using the same ethics and moral codes that they used during the Holocaust. The Catholic church, on the other hand, is still using the Bible's morals, the same that were used during the inquisitions, the crusade, the countless executions of "witches" and "heretics," the list goes on.
So ? They don't murder people any more since 300 years, so saying it is the same church is simply stupid.
BTW in last elections German neonazistic party got over 10% to the local parliament in one of the lands.
Yet you still hurt people through condemnation and self-denial (more about that below).
Quote from: nethHold on pal, you can't say homosexuality is natural, You know why ? The main purpose of sex is reproduction. That's right, reproduction, not pleasure. It's natural for all mammals that 2 genders work together so they can start new life. Is is possible when two guys stick penises into each others asses ? No, it's not possible, it can bring them nothing but pleasure and that's why it is not natural, so please spare me this politically correct bullshit and face the truth. The FACT is, sex of the same genders is as much productive as sex with trees, children or dead bodies - absolutely non-productive and that's why there is no reason why not to call it perversion.
Here's my superb scientific proof. Now you try to prove me that homosexuality is something different to the above mentioned perversions.
Superb scientific proof? Before you call it that, I'd like you to justify the assumption that there is such a thing as a purpose of sex. Political correctness has nothing to do with it, and while you may consider same-gender sex unproductive, so is for example prayer. Oh, and by the way, homosexuality is documented in other mammal species too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals).
You say homosexuality is an illness. Well, what's the definition of an illness? Assuming that an illness is something that affects you negatively, homosexuality is not an illness. However, many homosexuals have mental problems because of condemnation from large groups such as christians who somehow have decided that homosexuality is bad. Therefore homosexuality is not a disease, however christianity is a cancer to our society.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 31, 2008, 07:14:35 PM
If the church is the ultimate answer to getting a religious experience, how come some people have left the christianity for other religions?
I can't see any contradiction here. Fact that someone fully experienced some religion doesn't mean that he is strong enough to stay with it or not to be attracted by some other religion.
Quote from: Cyntrox
Oh, and by the way, homosexuality is documented in other mammal species too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals).
So what, it only proves that this disorder/illness is typical not only for humans.
Quote from: Cyntrox
You say homosexuality is an illness. Well, what's the definition of an illness? Assuming that an illness is something that affects you negatively, homosexuality is not an illness.
If you want the definition go search the WHO definition before 1990, when the homosexuality was erased from the illnesses list. Have you heard about reason why that happened ? some kind of breakthrough in medical research ?
Yes it has negative effects - it is a disorder that makes the procreation impossible from the psychological point of view, while it is still possible from the psychical point of view (which doesn't mean these people can't be cured through some kind of therapy).
Also, what about these guys who have sex with trees, excrements or dead bodies ? These guys feel great each time they do it and would surely deny if you asked them about the negative effects. Why don't we just erase these cases from disorders list, they don't hurt anyone!
Again, you're an idiot if you think that homosexuality is a disease. Its a way of life and no fucking book or cultist group could tell any gay or straight person how they are to live.
If your so in love with your God, don't you think he would treat everyone as equals? After all, weren't we created in the image of God? Does that mean that God is man and likes woman? Does that mean God is woman and likes man? It would never mean that man could like man or woman could like woman? Why? Did God say so...in the book that man wrote? So fucking naive. That's what happened when you get brainwashed.
You have absolutely no right to dub a gay person as "ill". In fact, the only person with the disorder is you, for being as close-minded as you are. Continue to be a jesus-lover, but stay the fuck away from me....I want absolutely nothing to do with your mindset. ESPECIALLY if this is your belief.
Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Actually, the way you answer is quite...disappointing, One could expect more from you.
QuoteIf your so in love with your God, don't you think he would treat everyone as equals? After all, weren't we created in the image of God? Does that mean that God is man and likes woman? Does that mean God is woman and likes man? It would never mean that man could like man or woman could like woman? Why? Did God say so...in the book that man wrote? So fucking naive. That's what happened when you get brainwashed.
You forgot something. Homosexuality is a mental disorder. It's funny how you dodge all my arguments showing their illness. You also keep talking about God you don't believe in constantly trying to insult my feelings but it only makes me smile. Religion has had completely no impact on my opinion about homosexuality. All my thoughts are logical while yours are based on emotions.
You still don't want to admit that gay behaviours are unnatural (yes, unnatural because they are against the NATURE, they bring nothing but pleasure to these people while they are socially non-productive) It's a pity I have to repeat myself but you seem to avoid answering some parts.
Please spare me that bullshit about equality and being close-minded and give me FACTS. I finally want to know what is the difference between homosexuals and guys "having sex" with trees, excrements or dead bodies etc. I finally want to know why the first ones are treated like they are completely ordinary and the others are considered to be perverts. Where is the difference between them, that nobody can see ?
Also, funny how tolerant person you are here and how "homophobic" you were when you called Kokafan - Cockfan or Yayzor - Gayzor on SCLamers. So, everything was ok there ? Does the word "tolerance" allows you to defend gays in public but to laugh at them when you're with your friends in much smaller community ? Oh wait, that's not tolerance, that's HYPOCRISY.
Now, come on, call me names, insult me more and remember, in your world the God doesn't exist, there are only the rights of nature.
You're dodging his other, more on-subject points.
Quote from: neth on December 31, 2008, 08:30:10 PM
I can't see any contradiction here. Fact that someone fully experienced some religion doesn't mean that he is strong enough to stay with it or not to be attracted by some other religion.
Duh, if there was a revelation to be had in the church alone, there wouldn't be need of any other religion than christianity. So my point is that your statement about the church being the only way to fully experience religion is false.
Quote from: Neth
So what, it only proves that this disorder/illness is typical not only for humans.
No, it proves that it's perfectly natural.
Quote from: Neth
If you want the definition go search the WHO definition before 1990, when the homosexuality was erased from the illnesses list. Have you heard about reason why that happened ? some kind of breakthrough in medical research ?
I know that it was considered an illness a long time ago, but I guess scientists realized that homosexuality is not an illness. That's pretty logical...
Quote from: NethYes it has negative effects - it is a disorder that makes the procreation impossible from the psychological point of view, while it is still possible from the psychical point of view (which doesn't mean these people can't be cured through some kind of therapy).
The world is overpopulated anyways. As long as homosexuals are a minority (which they are), it's not an issue.
Quote from: NethAlso, what about these guys who have sex with trees, excrements or dead bodies ? These guys feel great each time they do it and would surely deny if you asked them about the negative effects. Why don't we just erase these cases from disorders list, they don't hurt anyone!
Those are fetishes, not disorders. And apart from necrophilia, I agree. They don't hurt anyone, so just let them do their thing.
Quote from: neth on December 31, 2008, 05:15:44 PM
it's not that they are unnatural, they're just mentally ill people that should be given help.
u cant really turn a fag into a normal man.
what does your religion say if a woman wants an abortion because the child has down syndrome and she cant take care of him (no money, nor time)?
the priests say "no no he has the right to live dont kill him, help him!"
but when it comes to gays ('also mentally ill people'), god strikes them with flaming comets, and priests pray for their "cure" (equivalent to erradication).
religion is all bullshit.
In my opinion: Since homosexuality is not "normal" (it is below the avarage), and because there has to be a reason for its existance (according to my ideology); i believe that the source of this problem is located in the mind/brain of the homosexual patient; therefore making them psychologicaly/psychiatricaly different to us heterosexuals (exclusively in cases where the homosexual person has had that behavior since birth). i cant really say its an illness/disorder etc. because it dosent fall into those definitions. i think there is something wrong in their brains medically speaking though. i do not believe it is curable, and though i dont like to hang out with homosexual people. i let them be (i am indifferent), and i do not wish their death or the erradication of their kind.
and no i would not like to see my son grow up to be that way, but i guess id have to accept him as he is.
THIS GOES FOR ALL OF U USING WIKIPEDIA:
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A CREDIBLE SOURCE.yes, some things are true there but still; pleas use other sources.
Cyntrox: "Duh, if there was a revelation to be had in the church alone, there wouldn't be need of any other religion than christianity. So my point is that your statement about the church being the only way to fully experience religion is false."
NETH meant something else. he meant that the only way to experience the christian religion is to at least go to church once in a while. (towards all the self-proclaimed "christians" that never go to church.)
he didnt mean to say that "the christian church is the only way to fully experience RELIGION in general".
you misunderstood him.
Quote from: frvge on January 01, 2009, 12:47:04 AM
You're dodging his other, more on-subject points.
Thank you.
Quote from: neth on December 31, 2008, 10:29:52 PM
Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Actually, the way you answer is quite...disappointing, One could expect more from you.
Like Roberto said, Wikipedia is NOT a credible source for anything. It is a nice go to gadget, but doesn't count for shit in the real world.
QuoteYou forgot something. Homosexuality is a mental disorder. It's funny how you dodge all my arguments showing their illness. You also keep talking about God you don't believe in constantly trying to insult my feelings but it only makes me smile. Religion has had completely no impact on my opinion about homosexuality. All my thoughts are logical while yours are based on emotions.
Homosexuality is NOT a mental disorder. It's a mental disorder to those of you who don't understand that there is NO SUCH THING AS "NORMAL". I speak of
Quoteyour God
because its your faith. I'm under the impression that you're a Jesus-lover because of how you portray yourself. Your thoughts are not logical, rather they are bound to the impressions pressed upon you by your family, teachers, public officials, and your church or book from your church. You can put a brain monitor on someone and believe they have a mental disorder because the colors change, but how does that justify being a disorder if its not harmful to the person? Multiple personalities, bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, ADD (not convinced though - its bad parenting) are mental disorders. I agree someone hugging trees and fucking dead people are on the top of the list of psychological effects, but liking a counterpart of either gender is NOT a mental disorder. It is NOT an illness and could never be dubbed one. ANY sources you show me have zero credible evidence for homosexuality being a "disease".
Quote
You still don't want to admit that gay behaviours are unnatural (yes, unnatural because they are against the NATURE, they bring nothing but pleasure to these people while they are socially non-productive) It's a pity I have to repeat myself but you seem to avoid answering some parts.
Socially non-productive? Who the fuck are you to say what is and what isn't socially productive? They are socially productive in how they handle their freedom and how they handle themselves in society...they have jobs and fulfill the tax payer's priorities. As far as natural...pleasure is natural, but you're obviously so logical that you can't realize that. It's NATURAL that we as a human species don't overpopulate the planet...hey, guess what....one way is by being gay and NOT having children...or rather, adopting one so another child can have a better life. But this is too "far-out" for you, so close your mind again.
QuoteAlso, funny how tolerant person you are here and how "homophobic" you were when you called Kokafan - Cockfan or Yayzor - Gayzor on SCLamers. So, everything was ok there ? Does the word "tolerance" allows you to defend gays in public but to laugh at them when you're with your friends in much smaller community ? Oh wait, that's not tolerance, that's HYPOCRISY.
It's not homophobia...its a term that society has molded into being derogatory. It's a word you stupid fuck. I don't laugh at gay people, I laugh at the idea of a term dubbing someone something when it means happy. I laugh at the idea of people getting offended for something they aren't. They're human. Not gay, not straight, not bi...human. They aren't white, black, asian, indian...they are human. They aren't catholic, atheist, muslim, jewish...they're human. Keep throwing labels on people and you end up just that, a label. Why don't you separate yourself from society a little more and be better than people with "mental disorders"? Real winner over here.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, you are the homophobe...thinking that being homosexual is an illness...please. Pretty sure you have a mental disorder.
Quote
Now, come on, call me names, insult me more and remember, in your world the God doesn't exist, there are only the rights of nature.
Its not that God doesn't exist...but that you don't fucking know what does or does not exist. Having a set position on a deity or non deity is retarded. Knowing that there are greater things at work beyond our understanding would put you in a boat that actually floats.
Sorry for calling you names.
I don't usually do this but it looks like no-one else is going to:
Quote from: Rules of mass destruction
- please don't call eachother names.
- please minimize the use of expletives.
- for heated debates, when the previous points aren't met, please take it to a Private Message
All in all, please don't do stuff that might make visitors frown.
Just because YOU may think homosexuality is a disease, you shouldn't go around blabbing it about, not all visitors here are going to be heterosexuals and it won't make a very good first impression, now will it?
A discussion/debate like this is IMO fine, as long as controversial debates like this are only a very small minority in the bigger picture of all OT topics. I'm actually kinda surprised that it's still mostly friendly. Keep it up.
well if a homosexual male finds another mans penis attractive/sexualy arousing, unlike most of the rest of the human males. i think that there must be something different in that man's mind. maybe not a curable 'illness', but also not a competely functional one if u look at it from a evolutionary point of view where the objective of life is to reproduce for survival.
i d k a word that could replace 'illness' or 'disease' at the moment ill try and look for one.
Since when did religious people look at things from an evolutionary point of view?
Priests aren't allowed to reproduce AFAIK either. I could be wrong on that one, because I'm not that into it.
btw, would you classify being a lefty as an illness? 1/5th of the population is statistically gay, and 1/3rd is a leftie.
I think the whole thing is stupid, people who say it's an illness are right that there is somthing different in their minds but the point is the words "disease" or "illness" imply it is a bad thing, if they think that way then they should be asking themselves why they care about what other people do (mostly) behind closed doors.
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 01, 2009, 11:35:29 PM
I think the whole thing is stupid, people who say it's an illness are right that there is somthing different in their minds but the point is the words "disease" or "illness" imply it is a bad thing, if they think that way then they should be asking themselves why they care about what other people do (mostly) behind closed doors.
Its because it is psychological. As far as it being a disorder....that's really pushing it. Disorder is something we frown upon as a society, and needs a fix. It all goes along the lines of someone dubbing someone else as normal or abnormal. Again though, who are you/we/me to dub something normal.
One theory for homosexuality is that after a woman gives birth to her first son the womb contains less testosterone. But some people have been "turned" hetero via hypnotherapy and a suprising number just swap (it even happens the other way apparently!).
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 01, 2009, 11:25:07 PM
Since when did religious people look at things from an evolutionary point of view?
i dont know if you knew this but im not religious. im an atheist. i created the thread rofl.
Quote from: Westfall on December 30, 2008, 09:02:47 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 29, 2008, 10:19:22 PM
Come on. Most money goes to the church or charities. It's not going TO God, it's going toward what we think God wants it to go to. Give me a break frvge. BUT, I do agree that there are some "religions" (lol) out there that are just money hungry bastards trying to hypnotize. They definitely can give a bad name to the religions that only want to do good things.
Scientology ring a bell? Jehova's Witness? Sheesh.
Yes, because by the power of the priests, bishops, archbishops, and the pope....they speak FOR GOD and they know exactly where the money should go because he whispered in their ears. The money goes to keeping the church open and to pay your priests for his hard work in cleaning your soul of your sins in the booth you 2 go in...because god gave him the power.
However, some churches (Methodist rings a bell) use money to do outside programs and continue youth groups, donations, etc. The Catholic church wants your money because it is your duty on this planet to give the money to the church...cuz God said so....
so it goes towards what we think God wants it to alright...
Bullcrap. You know what I mean. Our best guess about where we think God would like the money to go to is where we will send possible donations. Not talking about Catholics specifically. Talking about Christian-ran charities. These people, the people of the church, want to do nothing but good - which is (duh) what we think God would want.
First friggin thing I find on Google (Christian charity organizations) - http://www.compassion.com/child_sponsorship_info_opt/christian_charity_organization.htm (http://www.compassion.com/child_sponsorship_info_opt/christian_charity_organization.htm)
The list is damned long. Don't deny this, bud. Christians are good people, in general. Yes, there are radicals that need to open their minds and think (people trying to ban condoms), but for the most part A LOT of the charities and donation organizations are Christian. If these organizations didn't ever exist the world would be even worse than it is, poverty wise and such. Respect that at least.
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 01, 2009, 11:25:07 PM
Since when did religious people look at things from an evolutionary point of view?
Have you read my posts? I certainly do think that evolution could have happened, however, no one knows. Does not at all disprove the existence of a superior being.
We 'evolved' to have sex with the opposite sex. Pretty damn simple. If there are a few people out there that are attracted to the same sex, why the hell should I care? I think it's disgusting, absolutely. I think it's wrong too. But that's their choice and there's no changing them. Homosexuals are people, obviously, so should get the same exact rights as straight people. When gays try to get EXTRA rights is where it really ticks me off. I don't believe that they should be able to marry but this does not contradict what I said earlier about rights. Marriage is not a right.
As for being born gay? No one is just born gay. Sure, they may be born with less/excess testosterone/estrogen, but that is nothing that cannot be fixed. The reason I say no one is born gay is because it defies the basic instincts of our species to not want to reproduce. Even gays nowadays are cheating and looking for ways to reproduce even without a mate of the opposite sex. No one is naturally born with the knowledge that you can still reproduce even if you are attracted to the same sex.
As with every species one of our MAIN instincts is to reproduce and to continue our species. If gays were naturally born gay then they'd be missing the instinct to reproduce because you are not able to with someone of the same sex. Does that mean there's something wrong with their brain when born? Not necessarily, but it shows that it's a choice.
If you just think about that then you'll see that homosexuality is a choice not a gene in our DNA.
Quote
Yes, there are radicals that need to open their minds and think (people trying to ban condoms),
Lol... I meant that the Pope said that. I agree he needs to think, but when you're so old, that's hard. xD
u cant really turn a fag into a normal man.
Quotewhat does your religion say if a woman wants an abortion because the child has down syndrome and she cant take care of him (no money, nor time)?
Adoption.
Quotethe priests say "no no he has the right to live dont kill him, help him!"
Adoption.
Quotebut when it comes to gays ('also mentally ill people'), god strikes them with flaming comets, and priests pray for their "cure" (equivalent to erradication).
There are extremes, and I never go there. I try to stay in the middle on every issue and take the things that make sense on both sides of the aisle. I am tolerant of gays, however, they should get nothing extra (as in rights) and should not be able to marry. Something that has been man/woman since the dawn of humanity. Politically correctness is starting to infringe on our rights to free speech, which sucks ass and everyone is going head over heels for it w/o realizing the problem.
Quote
religion is all bullshit.
What a wonderfully ignorant statement. A lot of it can be, won't argue with that. It's not all bullshit. It offers hope, new beginnings, and a lot of what I believe to be the truth to people. A lot of religions give, not take, though there are imposters.
QuoteIn my opinion: Since homosexuality is not "normal" (it is below the avarage), and because there has to be a reason for its existance (according to my ideology); i believe that the source of this problem is located in the mind/brain of the homosexual patient; therefore making them psychologicaly/psychiatricaly different to us heterosexuals (exclusively in cases where the homosexual person has had that behavior since birth). i cant really say its an illness/disorder etc. because it dosent fall into those definitions. i think there is something wrong in their brains medically speaking though. i do not believe it is curable, and though i dont like to hang out with homosexual people. i let them be (i am indifferent), and i do not wish their death or the erradication of their kind.
right with ya.
Quoteand no i would not like to see my son grow up to be that way, but i guess id have to accept him as he is.
I think that shows that in the human mind we look at homosexuality in a strange way. As in, not normal. As westfall said, it's hard to say who decides what is/isn't normal. However I have a feeling that humans in general think that it's out of the ordinary to be homosexual. We try to be compassionate and accepting but I think we all can admit that it's just at least a little bit funky. Defies basic instincts, defies evolutionary standards (can't think of a better phrase, let's just say we weren't created/evolved to be that way), it just doesn't seem right. All we can do is be as accepting as possible, there IS a line to be drawn however. We're starting to get to a phase where anything is acceptable. Cut off your penis? No problem, in fact, we got a special bed for ya right here! You've got a vagina but you call yourself Mike and shave your head and cut off your breasts? Take a seat right here, sir, maam, whatever you are.
Just be careful of that line that without a doubt exists.
Still, there are radicals who are strictly against condoms. They don't have to use condoms, I don't care. But, it doesn't mean that people aren't/shouldn't use contraception.
Here's another thing. You may ask why I'm against abortion but for contraception like birth control pills. Contraception may be strange and unnatural (especially the pill), but it prevents conception and doesn't terminate it. Terminating an already in-progress human being is vastly immoral in my opinion.
Again, there's another line we shouldn't cross here with what's the norm (meaning everything can be normal and acceptable). Not everything should be. Killing a baby in the whom for the sake of not having a baby, what the hell?
Ever since Roe v Wade (a supreme court case here in the states about abortion, from the 70's I think) there have been over 40,000,000 abortions. Just here in the U.S. Is that not a sickening number? Seriously.
No, it isn't. A fetus is not a baby. It can be technically described as a tumor. It is not a baby until it comes out of the womb. That is where I am right and you are wrong. Killing babies is wrong, sure. Killing fetuses(fetii?) isn't.
The condom thing is retarded. You should use whatever the hell you want. Use a condom until you want a baby that you will love and care for. Until then, get on anything and everything you want.
I don't agree with gay marriage, but then it doesn't actually exist in the UK, although that's the term thrown around it's actually called a 'Civil Partnership'. Marriage has always been opposite sex and the whole point of a Civil Partnership is to make the relationship "official", as though being together isn't enough. But Papa Skull you're mind is seriously fucked up if you don't think gay people should have the same rights as you, what someone finds arousing is not a way to class someone, if you let gays not be equal then maybe, women, blacks and children should all be below us aswell?
Everyone should have equal rights, if one person is allowed to do it, so should another, (excluding the obvious exceptions).
QuoteI don't agree with gay marriage, but then it doesn't actually exist in the UK, although that's the term thrown around it's actually called a 'Civil Partnership'. Marriage has always been opposite sex and the whole point of a Civil Partnership is to make the relationship "official", as though being together isn't enough. But Papa Skull you're mind is seriously fucked up if you don't think gay people should have the same rights as you, what someone finds arousing is not a way to class someone, if you let gays not be equal then maybe, women, blacks and children should all be below us aswell?
Everyone should have equal rights, if one person is allowed to do it, so should another, (excluding the obvious exceptions).
Tidenburg, did you even friggin read my post? Sheesh...
This ring a bell?
QuoteWe 'evolved' to have sex with the opposite sex. Pretty damn simple. If there are a few people out there that are attracted to the same sex, why the hell should I care? I think it's disgusting, absolutely. I think it's wrong too. But that's their choice and there's no changing them. Homosexuals are people, obviously, so should get the same exact rights as straight people. When gays try to get EXTRA rights is where it really ticks me off. I don't believe that they should be able to marry but this does not contradict what I said earlier about rights. Marriage is not a right.
Oh and I totally agree with you, just so ya know. ;)
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 02, 2009, 08:03:29 PM
No, it isn't. A fetus is not a baby. It can be technically described as a tumor. It is not a baby until it comes out of the womb. That is where I am right and you are wrong. Killing babies is wrong, sure. Killing fetuses(fetii?) isn't.
I'm surprised that you said "killing" the fetus is okay. Usually pro-choice people just use another "okay" word like "aborting" or "terminating". Using the real word, killing, usually makes their argument look bad. There's another flaw with your argument. What about partial-birth abortions? The fetus is technically born, so it's a baby, yet people (maybe you I don't know) still support terminating/killing that born baby/fetus (whatever you want to call that growing in-progress human being to make abortion sound more humane). And as far as I know most people have the same sort of general idea of abortion. It's gross, unnatural, and shouldn't be used unless absolutely necessary (mother's life in danger during birth, rape maybe, etc). From my observations most people I've heard from do not like to see it used as an everyday form of birth control, especially the mothers.
The condom thing is retarded. You should use whatever the hell you want. Use a condom until you want a baby that you will love and care for. Until then, get on anything and everything you want.
Sure. I don't care.
Marriage is like a subscription to a sucky time. If they want that, good for them. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is so 1900.
My views of acceptible abortion:
- early teenage pregnancies (think 14 years old... eww)
- rape /sexual offenses
- pregnacies where there are a lot of complications
- big physical/psychological problems, with mother/child.
(stuff like child misses limbs, or has serious brain damage (Bush-level), or... etc)
IMO not acceptible:
- because you forgot anticonception AND you can afford/properly take care of it. If you can't, adoption should be considered, but it's up to the mom.
- because the child has minor physical/psychological problems. Down's Syndrome is IMO a 50-50 case. Dunno about that one.
It's better to abort while in the womb, than to give birth to a sick, fucked up piece of human being, which can't stand on its own and will generally have a sucky life.
Have you noticed that everytime there is a discussion about religion, politics, or homosexuals, the conversation always drifts to one of the other topics?
It just always happens.
Oh, and about the Bush comment, no mentally challenged guy could dodge a 2 shoes in a row. ;)
People need to give Bush a break, seriously.
It's because those topics are always used as arguments in religious debates ^_^
QuoteOh, and about the Bush comment, no mentally challenged guy could dodge a 2 shoes in a row.
He just lost his balance and almost fell down. Twice xD Lucky him! He'll get his break, this month.
No, people are going to call the inevitable failures of the Obama presidency the "BUSH AFTERSHOCK!"
I really hope Obama does well, but, nothing will change really.
People also need to realize that a recession is not always the presidents fault. The failure to act on the recession is the president's fault, but Bush has acted on it. He has gone the way of socialism in this recession and I can't stand it. We need fiscal responsibility here in the states, Obama/Bush are not fiscally responsible from what I can see.
Papa Skull please stop ignoring me . Please read page 10 post 4 and you could also read my another post on page 6 . Looking forward to hearing from you.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 02, 2009, 11:14:03 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 02, 2009, 08:03:29 PM
No, it isn't. A fetus is not a baby. It can be technically described as a tumor. It is not a baby until it comes out of the womb. That is where I am right and you are wrong. Killing babies is wrong, sure. Killing fetuses(fetii?) isn't.
I'm surprised that you said "killing" the fetus is okay. Usually pro-choice people just use another "okay" word like "aborting" or "terminating". Using the real word, killing, usually makes their argument look bad. There's another flaw with your argument. What about partial-birth abortions? The fetus is technically born, so it's a baby, yet people (maybe you I don't know) still support terminating/killing that born baby/fetus (whatever you want to call that growing in-progress human being to make abortion sound more humane). And as far as I know most people have the same sort of general idea of abortion. It's gross, unnatural, and shouldn't be used unless absolutely necessary (mother's life in danger during birth, rape maybe, etc). From my observations most people I've heard from do not like to see it used as an everyday form of birth control, especially the mothers.
Sorry that I don't feel the need to make my argument look more friendly or nice. You can kill a tumor, remove a tumor, terminate a tumor, whatever you want. It is still the same thing.
Partial birth abortions... They are a silly case. Anyone who goes through the 9 months of not wanting a baby and then wants to kill it the day they are having it is odd. I believe it is usually for health reasons, which should be taken into account. That is a case by case decision. I can't say my accurate beliefs on those just because of the different reasons.
The condom thing is retarded. You should use whatever the hell you want. Use a condom until you want a baby that you will love and care for. Until then, get on anything and everything you want.
Sure. I don't care.
Quote from: Snakebit. on December 30, 2008, 11:14:24 PM
To Papa Skull.
Previously said by you.
''He was trying to make me out to be an idiot, or someone who rejects scientific evidence. Quite the contrary. I can tell that THE God is not the God that Muslims or what have you will make you believe. Our God is not the -get on your knees and praise me 10x per day and kill yourself in my name- kind of god. I believe that's foolish and was just a man-made chunk of crap. Our God is beyond genius, forgiving, and wants you to value life (yours and others)... No wife beating allowed or encouraged by the Christian God. No virgins in heaven for you to bang when you kill yourself in the name of "the creator". The morals taught by God are the morals that our world strives to live by, but fails anyway. Everything just seems to add up. ''
First of all you can't say that THE god of the Christians is that much different OR better from The god of the Muslims. Christians also used to be ' GOD SAYS YOU NEED TO WORSHIP 10X TIMES A DAY OR YOU GO TO HELL' or ' Killing an infidel is not a sin , it is a path to heaven ' . The last one is actually a true saying during the 10th-13th centuries when Christians 'spread' ( ahem mostly in a very BLOODY way ) their believes . Christians did burn innocent people because they were 'witches' or 'warlocks' or 'magicians' etc.
There are similarities, won't argue with that. But the values taught by Muslims don't hold a candle to the Christian ones in terms of common sense moral values. As for your examples of barbaric actions from Christians, what about em? Nowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill. Nowhere in the bible does it say that you NEED TO PRAY EVERY SINGLE DAY. We don't even have to go to church. What I'm saying is that the radical and horrible actions that have been done by Christians in the past were not actions that were encouraged by God or by the Bible. I can point out plenty of horrible things encouraged in the Quran though. We have a thing called free will, duh. What the followers of God decided to do with their time isn't a concern of mine and is something that God most likely had no control of. I'm betting that those that went about the crusades in a bloody manner were punished anyways. I don't know.
Oh now you will try to say that it was a long time ago and that its not the God who ordered those bloody witch hunts and the infamous crusades and the Church said 'Come on guys , we are sorry!'. But then again , its not the god that orders Muslims to go kill 'infidels' and calls for a Jihad .As the Bible , the Koran is also a book which was written by mortal people so not in any way the actions of the current generation prove that THE MUSLIM GOD is not the 'right' God. Muslim might also say in the future ' Oh we are sorry for kinda killing you infidels , forgive us okay ?' But that won't change the fact that both Christianity and the Muslim religion were used to kill innocent people . Oh and by the way , crimes against humanity have no time frame( Its hard to say this in English. It means that it doesn't matter when it happened , you can still be charged and found guilty , depends on the evidence ) , so i would be happy if someone charges the 'church' with violations of human rights .
Yeah I did say that. You fail to recognize the stark differences in moral values between the two. The Quran teaches things that are completely against what the western world pushes for. Things like: women are less than men. You can beat your wife. You can marry more than one wife.
Does sexism really sound like something that God would be for? Honestly? If there is a God, and I believe there is just stay with me here, do you REALLY believe that the completely perfect and neutral creator would allow for half of his creations being mere sex slaves? Gimme a break.
You know , actually the Muslim religion is more convincing to me than Christianity. Just think about it ? How many Christian interpretations of the holy Bible are there ? The old Testament , The new Testament , King Jameses Testament , Orthodox Bible(it is a bit different than the catholic one or the protestant one) , not to mention the 'crazy' new 'christian' churches which have appeared lately (around 1-90 years old) .
Lol. Just because there are some loons who believe they have found new things about Christianity you think that Christianity as a whole is unbelievable? Dude. No logic. Basic (and believable) story of Christianity is: There always has been a God. God was present in the nothingness before the "big bang". God designs the "big bang" to perfectly place our Earth in the universe. God initiates the creation of the universe using whatever method, we'll find out eventually (still, not rejecting the big bang theory on this one). God places life on Earth which he designs to eventually "evolve" into humans.
Scientific theories are theories that could very well be used in determining some of the methods used by God.
Compared to that , the Muslim religion has only 3 Koran interpretations . The Shiit Koran(The old Koran) , The Sunit Koran(The new Koran ) and the Vohabit Koran ( The terrorists Koran ). If i remember correctly Shiit is the old one and Sunit is the new one but i don't remember for sure , so i might be wrong on this .
So 3 interpretations against around 7 or more ( i really don't know all the wacky christian branches and their absurd bibles ) . I would say that Mr. Muslim doesn't change his views on his religion every 200 years or so which probably makes it more believable and the Muslim god a bit more better in a way compared to the Christian one .
I could go interperet the Quran right now. Add that one to the list. Your point is, snakebit? My point is that judging the believability of a religion by looking at the number of interperetations of its holy book of moral values is insane.
You're rejecting that there could be a God, and that an incredible preacher named Jesus could be his messenger, because there have been multiple interperetations of a book? It's pretty much a fact that Jesus did exist. It's just whether you trust his words or not and if you believe that our universe was intelligently designed or not. That's it.
QuoteThere are similarities, won't argue with that. But the values taught by Muslims don't hold a candle to the Christian ones in terms of common sense moral values. As for your examples of barbaric actions from Christians, what about em? Nowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill. Nowhere in the bible does it say that you NEED TO PRAY EVERY SINGLE DAY. We don't even have to go to church. What I'm saying is that the radical and horrible actions that have been done by Christians in the past were not actions that were encouraged by God or by the Bible. I can point out plenty of horrible things encouraged in the Quran though. We have a thing called free will, duh. What the followers of God decided to do with their time isn't a concern of mine and is something that God most likely had no control of. I'm betting that those that went about the crusades in a bloody manner were punished anyways. I don't know.
1st of all . Need to pray every single day doesn't really make any religion bad . Its just a way of worshiping their god. And actually the horrible actions in the past , like the crusades for example , were encouraged by the bible .' Its a trile given by god ' .Oh and the interpretation of the Bible is very important . How would you know anything about the GOD of the Christians without it ??
Without the Bible Christianity would not exist . Without it you wouldn't know what god stands for .
QuoteYeah I did say that. You fail to recognize the stark differences in moral values between the two. The Quran teaches things that are completely against what the western world pushes for. Things like: women are less than men. You can beat your wife. You can marry more than one wife.
Does sexism really sound like something that God would be for? Honestly? If there is a God, and I believe there is just stay with me here, do you REALLY believe that the completely perfect and neutral creator would allow for half of his creations being mere sex slaves? Gimme a break.
Since when is western culture = Christianity ? Do you even understand that Christianity appeared in the Middle East and it only spread to Europe and America after several hundred years of its establishment ? Oh and your god didn't give a damn about women before the middle of the 20th century . He didn't care that they had no rights , he didn't care about fixed marriages , he didn't care about slavery , he didn't care about women getting beat up if they disobeyed their parents , he didn't care about a lot of those witches during the middle ages didn't he ? ( Okay forget the witches this argument is old) . Christianity adapted with time to the western culture and hence it become what it is now . You don't worship 'moral values of god' you just worship 'moral values of the west' now . Would be fun to see in 50-100 years when Muslim countries will give rights to women , how will Koran adapt ? And don't give me that it won't . It somehow adapted to 'Terrorism' . Nowhere in the Koran it is said to go blow yourself up to kill several 'occupants' OR infidels for the matter .
QuoteLol. Just because there are some loons who believe they have found new things about Christianity you think that Christianity as a whole is unbelievable? Dude. No logic. Basic (and believable) story of Christianity is: There always has been a God. God was present in the nothingness before the "big bang". God designs the "big bang" to perfectly place our Earth in the universe. God initiates the creation of the universe using whatever method, we'll find out eventually (still, not rejecting the big bang theory on this one). God places life on Earth which he designs to eventually "evolve" into humans.
Scientific theories are theories that could very well be used in determining some of the methods used by God.
The logic is simple . Without the Bible you wouldn't know anything about God or Christianity . And since it has been rewritten a lot of times means it has changed a lot . People don't rewrite the same book several times unless there is something seriously wrong with it . During the last 2000 or morals have changed a lot but still are not that great . So your holy book 'The Bible' changed with them . I bet in 50 years condoms are also gonna be 'okay' and Jesus will tell us all a great reason for it .
As i said before about the Big Bang. Its a theory <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< means it has not been proven yet so you can't say anything based on it simply because IT MIGHT NOT HAVE HAPPENED .
You can't say god created the BIG BANG or it just Happened because it hasn't been proven yet that actually the BIG BANG created the universe.
Which brings me to a logical questions . If god created everything , then why are we carnivores ? Why do we eat other animals ? Isn't that 'immoral' to kill other 'gods creations ?' (Well living creations at the least ). We could just happily eat grass or berries or pop corn or whatever . I don't see any logic in his actions , do you ? Is this one more 'trile' given by the all mighty GOD which nobody notices ?
QuoteI could go interperet the Quran right now. Add that one to the list. Your point is, snakebit? My point is that judging the believability of a religion by looking at the number of interperetations of its holy book of moral values is insane.
You're rejecting that there could be a God, and that an incredible preacher named Jesus could be his messenger, because there have been multiple interperetations of a book? It's pretty much a fact that Jesus did exist. It's just whether you trust his words or not and if you believe that our universe was intelligently designed or not. That's it.
It doesn't matter if you go interpret it or not . But it matters if there are a lot interpretations of the bible and A LOT of people believe them . Which makes your interpretation of the bible the 'correct' one and the other ones the 'incorrect' ones ? You wouldn't know anything about your god without the BIBLE . So you can judge religion .
Oh and please name the 'moral values' which you worship in Christianity when you reply to this in the end.
Heh, just found this on evilbible.com ^_^
(Not all aimed at you Papa)
QuoteTop Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 05, 2009, 05:30:30 AMNowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill.
Oh, bullshit.
First google hit: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 07, 2009, 04:56:18 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 05, 2009, 05:30:30 AMNowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill.
Oh, bullshit.
First google hit: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
That is what i am saying . Its the way how people interpret this . For me this is just what have already happened and has no meaning in the present . The god might be a bit violent at times if you believe in him but surely he doesn't say ' YOU MAGGOTS GO KILL SOME PEOPLE ' . It is a description of the past and so is the Koran . There are places with similar things described in the Koran and nowhere in it it is said 'to go kill some infidels or occupants' . It is just the way you interpret it and usually people interpret it according to their needs.
For example . You want to prove your argument so you interpret such sayings in the bible as a thing that encourages to kill.
Or the terrorists in Iraq / Afganistan / South Arabia and many other Muslim countries are encouraged to go kill people in the same way . Just because 'some' guy in a Church says so . Priest are people who interpret the words of 'god' to us so a lot of people believe them .
The only big difference between the Muslim religion and Christianity is that Christians live mostly in Dc's (Developed Countries) or close to being a Dc . Well the bigger part of Christians does so our moral standards are a bit higher because we are a 'more' civilized . And Muslims live in countries with a lot of internal struggle , conflict , bloodshed and feel oppressed . ( Iraq / Iran / Afghanistan / Palestine / Pakistan / Bangladesh / Northern regions of India / all the small countries around Israel etc etc). So they didn't have time to think about their morals .......
In the last 100 years they were only trying to regain their freedom and independence while we 'exploited' them .
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 07, 2009, 07:11:03 PMIts the way how people interpret this .
Oh, I've found a few examples. How much room for interpretation does this really leave? These are not things that have happened in the past, these are laws that all christians are supposed to follow.
All from Exodus:
21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
(So selling your daughter is fine, according to the bible)
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
(And if you curse at your parents, that's reason enough for capital punishment)
21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
(If an ox that is known to be unruly attacks someone, the ox should get stoned and the owner killed. Did anyone say that there is no violence in the bible?)
I never said no violence.
I also looked into that source where it showed encouragement of killing infidels in the Quran. Seems legit. Plenty of examples (all real from my research) from the Quran which encourage beheadings, killings, and crucifictions of "Non-believers", kaffirs, infidels.
http://www.ropma.net/killing_by_beheading_is_islamic.htm (http://www.ropma.net/killing_by_beheading_is_islamic.htm)
You know, I try to be fair. I take the points from each side especially in heated topics such as this one. I will listen to your points and I hope you'll see mine.
About the "killing encouraged in the bible", doesn't this one override it completely?
"Thou Shalt Not Kill."
Seriously, anything else in the Bible that looks as though it encourages anyone to KILL, is obviously not as it seems because of that 1 commandment. Do. Not. Kill. Overidden. Right?
And what makes that commandment count for more than the countless places in the bible where killing is literally commanded? It's one of the many contradictions in the bible. How can follow a religion whos "holy book" tells you not to kill on one page and tells you to kill on the next? As for seeing both sides of the topic, I was raised a christian but due to things such as this don't consider myself one anymore.
Papa, have you even _read_ the bible? If you don't remember the blatently obvious ones then here is one every 1st grader would know, Because man was "evil" God sent a wave to kill all the animals, humans and (many) plants except the few gathered on a boat. Or do you only count _direct_ murder?
Heh, you have to be pretty blind not to see murder in the bible, most of the well known stories include it.
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 08, 2009, 07:17:19 PM
Papa, have you even _read_ the bible? If you don't remember the blatently obvious ones then here is one every 1st grader would know, Because man was "evil" God sent a wave to kill all the animals, humans and (many) plants except the few gathered on a boat. Or do you only count _direct_ murder?
Heh, you have to be pretty blind not to see murder in the bible, most of the well known stories include it.
DUDE. READ MY POST - I've told you this a few times before on this very thread. I never said there was no violence. Grim times call for grim measures and grim stories. Of course there was murder in the STORIES.
All those "commandings of murder", the ones you think are encouraged in the bible, simply are not. They obviously aren't trying to get you to kill because on the next page it tells you not to kill. This may seem like an obvious contradiction but I seriously doubt that the greatest book of all time, whoever the writer may be (matter of opinion), would be stupid enough to trip over his/her own feet so blatantly. There's something else. A message of morality in those words, the ones you think are telling you to stone your ox to death. Lol. Not meant literally. Not all of it in the bible is meant literally, of course.
As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 09, 2009, 12:31:40 AM
As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran
wiki isn't always a valid source. Ok this debate has gone for like 13 pages, can we just drop it?
if " insert name here " wants to be an atheist then let it be so.
sooner or later gods gunna cut you down -Johnny Cash
Quote from: AgentX_003 on January 09, 2009, 12:41:35 AM
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 09, 2009, 12:31:40 AM
As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran
wiki isn't always a valid source. Ok this debate has gone for like 13 pages, can we just drop it?
if " insert name here " wants to be an atheist then let it be so.
sooner or later gods gunna cut you down -Johnny Cash
There are copy pastes of surveys done by scientists . Well small parts of them .
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 09, 2009, 12:31:40 AM
As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran
Yes, because I don't think that the God like the one Islamic people worship could ever exist, so therefore it was written by men. I don't believe a sexist, murder-encouraging creator could exist. If there is a creator, stay with me, don't you believe that the God would stand up for equal rights and equal oppurtunity for all his creations? Not just the men? This goes back to when you said Islam was more believable the Christianity.
The other God, the RIGHTEOUS God, I believe exists.
There's an old saying. "For what I have seen has convinced me to trust the creator for the things I have not seen." It means that over the courses of our lives we will see amazing things (good or bad) happen. As we grow old we can't help but see that there is a spirtual side to our universe, one that cannot be explained by pure observable facts, though ironically we do technically observe them. I don't mean old like each day, but as our lives start to draw to an end a lot of us will realize that the world is not just skin and bones, data and spreadsheets, but something more. Sure, not all of us will see it by the end of our days. But this is the test, the test of faith. It makes sense to me. All seems to coincide perfectly.
Is it the Quran or the Koran? I've seen it spelled both ways but I've always thought it was with a Q.
Snakebit, what are you? Atheist? Agnostic?
Okay... maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't. A philosipher once said "imagine a group of people who have spent their entire lives living in a building with no windows, people who have never seen the outdoors. If a man would have run into the building and screamed "FIRE!" so that everybody would finally see what is behind the walls... would he be lying?" I think he had a good point, sure there was no fire... but does it matter? What matters is that the people who were in that cage, finally know the world behind it. BUT, christianity and every other ORGANIZED religion force you to believe in the fire, not to believe in things behind our own world. That's why all the little fucks who walk up to your door step and convince you that this man did this to make humanity into this could fornicate themselves with their very own bibles.
I'm not to into the whole organized religion thing either. I am technically a Christian (I believe in God, Jesus, try to live my life to the best of my ability with the 10 commandments in the back of my head) but I can't stand things like Christian music, I never go to church, etc. However I do respect those trying to spread the word of Jesus. A moral preacher with words ahead of his time. Words of advice, try to be nicer to those who walk up to your door. Wrong or not, they are trying (what they believe) to save your soul. What's wrong with that? Most of em aren't just "little fuckers", ya know? You'll occasionally get those imposters, who really belong to a cult and not a caring religion like Christianity, who want your money. Those are the little fuckers you speak of. lol
So, Blank Man, you're agnostic. I see that as a respectable stance. We can't really know for sure. Either way. It's all about the feelings we get. Is there more to life? Are we just a random result of the big bang? Who knows? I think there is more, a God, an afterlife (if you can call it that), Jesus is the messenger of God, for the rest I look at science. The more I look at science, the more that I see that there's more to our universe. The more I see things, the easier it is for me to believe that we aren't just a random result of an enormous explosion of matter. Many scientists realize this - believe it or not. Science and fact isn't the road to atheism like some would have you believe. Like Goodkebab put it so long ago, science's goal is not to disprove God but to show how he works.
QuoteI think there is more, a God, an afterlife (if you can call it that), Jesus is the messenger of God, for the rest I look at science. The more I look at science, the more that I see that there's more to our universe. The more I see things, the easier it is for me to believe that we aren't just a random result of an enormous explosion of matter. Many scientists realize this - believe it or not. Science and fact isn't the road to atheism like some would have you believe. Like Goodkebab put it so long ago, science's goal is not to disprove God but to show how he works.
Just out of curiosity...what is your god? You believe in an after life? Wouldn't that make this reality a program?
I'm happy that you're paying attention to the universe. As far as I'm concerned, the universe is god...think about it.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html
P.S. agnostics believe that there is "something more".
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 08, 2009, 09:31:01 PM
All those "commandings of murder", the ones you think are encouraged in the bible, simply are not. They obviously aren't trying to get you to kill because on the next page it tells you not to kill. This may seem like an obvious contradiction but I seriously doubt that the greatest book of all time, whoever the writer may be (matter of opinion), would be stupid enough to trip over his/her own feet so blatantly. There's something else. A message of morality in those words, the ones you think are telling you to stone your ox to death. Lol. Not meant literally. Not all of it in the bible is meant literally, of course.
It says many places that you are supposed to kill, and it says one place that you're not supposed to kill. Yet you believe the one place that it says you're not supposed to kill rather than all the other. Why is that? And "that's simply how it is" is not a valid explenation. Here's the thing: You think very highly of the bible and christianity, and thus you try to defend it instead of re evaluating your beliefs.
As for WHY the bible contradicts itself, it was written by many people, not one writer.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 09, 2009, 01:24:43 AM
Yes, because I don't think that the God like the one Islamic people worship could ever exist, so therefore it was written by men. I don't believe a sexist, murder-encouraging creator could exist. If there is a creator, stay with me, don't you believe that the God would stand up for equal rights and equal oppurtunity for all his creations? Not just the men? This goes back to when you said Islam was more believable the Christianity.
The other God, the RIGHTEOUS God, I believe exists.
I agree with you completely, and that's much of the reason why I left christianity: I don't believe that a sexist, murder-encouraging creator could exist. Refer to my last post, it showed both sexism and commands of capital punishment.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 09, 2009, 07:03:57 AM(...)afterlife(...)
Speaking of which, could you tell us what your idea of heaven and hell is? I'd like to hear.
Papaskull, No offense but it seems to me that your religion therefore results from a lack of understanding in the science behind the big bang. Saying that our existance is random is stupid, if I rolled a die 1 million times and got a six would you be suprised? Of course not. Of the millions upon millions of planets in our universe, it was inevitable that at least one would be able to support our kind of life (just like rolling a die enough times will normally get you the result you want). And in all probability the energy which created our universe wasn't random but it IS irrelevant.
You see, some think that our universe is not where it all ends, that might seem stupid, but lets also remember at one point it would have sounded stupid suggesting the Sun didn't infact, orbit the earth and that you don't drop off the end of the Horizon. Outside these universes our minds could not possibly fathom what it would be like, in other universes dimensions, time, matter EVERYTHING would not exist (in most) and would be completely different. Unfortunatly because our minds are soo tuned to certain stereotypes we can't imagine what it would be like (we can't even imagine where a fourth dimension would go).
Anyways, I digress, in these universes nothing would have a resemblance to ours, in fact, anything outside our universe is disregarded because the laws of physics would be so different or non-existant it's assumed they wouldn't effect us (and couldn't), when our universe was created is the official starting point for history (obviously not recorded) and time, we ignore all before, but what if somthing outside our universe caused it to start? Just like planets are constantly created, universes may be too. And therefore, over an infinite amount of time, and an infinite amount of space where universes are being made... well we're just back to the dice again aren't we? It would happen in the end.
Remember my world being flat example (which I know isn't _really_ what we thought) and the sun orbiting the earth example if you think that sounds farfetched because the theory behind it is pretty plausable (with evidence leading up to the big bang theory only, of course). It's hard to understand and I only even get the general gist of the theory, but it's much more "open-minded" than the theory of God and makes more sense, ironic as Atheists are often accused of being close-minded.
------------
For your statement about people knocking on my door. No. I will not respect them. If they want to go and believe in God, then that's they're own choice. But imposing their beliefs on me is just not on and rather disrespectfull to me and my views. If God is truely as awesome and powerful as Thiests believe, let him send a flood to kill us all or strike me down where I stand, instead of relying on some self indulged* "do gooders" perhaps he should believe that due to how much "sense" it makes that we will just believe him anyway.
*I say self-indulged because that's all religion is now-a-days, of course there is the occasional person who just wants to help, but for the most parts its to save your own ass from hell and live in eternal luxury in heaven, which is a pretty selfish, underlying motive if you ask me. What happened to a rich person not being able to get into heaven? What happened to what Jesus said about giving your money away and if someone asks for somthing you should give it to them without asking why they need it? I don't see that happening very often.
Here is a good book regarding Christianity. BTW i am Protestant.
http://www.josh.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=ddKDIMNtEqG&b=4366337&en=7pKHIOOmG3KELNOoFaKMI2MAIfIOIQNwElIWI6PMF&ProductID=604549
Imho God is a big egoist . Like a little baby if you believe in the Bible and Heaven and Hell concept . So if you do something that god doesn't approve of you go straight to hell . Its either his way or no way at all . Not to mention all of the atheists and blasphemers go strait to hell.
And please don't give me that good only stands for good . There are a lot of paragraphs in the bible that say REALLY BAD STUFF . Someone quoted them back on the 13th page i think(some of them) . Like that you could sell your daughter into slavery and beat her up if she disobeyed you.
If you believe the bible , god also should be put on trile for genocide . The great flood killed a lot of people which is not what a God should do . Isn't it even worse than Muslims god (From a point of view ) .
Christian god just butchered everybody who didn't believe in him and Muslim god kindly says 'I will kill you if you don't believe in me '. At the least Muslim god gives you a chance to survive .
The concept of 'god' judging you after you die is also egoistic . For example if you have lived in times of reformation , wouldn't that mean that all 'reformators of the church' would be judged evil and be sent to hell ? Which path of Christianity does god follow ? Catholic ? Protestant ? Orthodox ? Some stupid other path ? If he follows 1 of those than wouldn't that make other 2 paths 'blasphemy' and 'evil' ? Well at least during the old times because now God is for everybody . He happily adapted to current morals .
A lot of people like to say that 'god' stands for World Peace but does he ? He butchered a lot of people in Egypt. Killed a lot of Jews . Flooded the world and killed a lot of other people in general . Made a lot of disasters which probably ruined the life of many people(Consult page 13(Coincidence i guess) for more information ) . AND NOW PEOPLE STILL SAY HE IS FOR WORLD PEACE AFTER THAT ?
P.s By the way . I don't believe in god and Christianity but i DO support the Church thought . The Church did a lot of bad things in the past but now it transformed into something else . They try to help people now instead of killing them . Like 'God is for world peace ' and a lot of charity . Humanitarian support , etc etc etc . But the only bad thing is that they 'twist' the words of 'god' or what is written in the bible to serve their needs . They try to help people with that but i think it is still unacceptable .
They might be helping people now , but what will happen in the future nobody knows ? They might start using religion to kill people in the future ?
i agree with tindenburg.
many practices/ideals in religions are implemented by random unknown dudes who are just looking for a personal benifit. accumulate all of those crappy rules and practices and you have one big squetchy self-contradicting religion.
theres a video on youtube of two guys called "penn and teller: the bible is bullshit" you should check that out.
**those guys obviously dont cover everything on the topic, because its just a short show. if they did cover every topic, itd be a video as long as this thread.**
but u guys should watch it.
also watch "George Carlin - Religion is bullshit." in youtube. (comedy)
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 12, 2009, 11:09:53 AM
also watch "George Carlin - Religion is bullshit." in youtube. (comedy)
Watching movies is the worst way to form your opinion. Think for yourself a bit . If you watch a movie in a way it pushes its own opinion on you.
The bible is pro choice. BTW... Just letting you know.
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 10, 2009, 03:54:11 PM
Imho God is a big egoist . Like a little baby if you believe in the Bible and Heaven and Hell concept . So if you do something that god doesn't approve of you go straight to hell . Its either his way or no way at all . Not to mention all of the atheists and blasphemers go strait to hell.
And please don't give me that good only stands for good . There are a lot of paragraphs in the bible that say REALLY BAD STUFF . Someone quoted them back on the 13th page i think(some of them) . Like that you could sell your daughter into slavery and beat her up if she disobeyed you.
If you believe the bible , god also should be put on trile for genocide . The great flood killed a lot of people which is not what a God should do . Isn't it even worse than Muslims god (From a point of view ) .
Christian god just butchered everybody who didn't believe in him and Muslim god kindly says 'I will kill you if you don't believe in me '. At the least Muslim god gives you a chance to survive .
The concept of 'god' judging you after you die is also egoistic . For example if you have lived in times of reformation , wouldn't that mean that all 'reformators of the church' would be judged evil and be sent to hell ? Which path of Christianity does god follow ? Catholic ? Protestant ? Orthodox ? Some stupid other path ? If he follows 1 of those than wouldn't that make other 2 paths 'blasphemy' and 'evil' ? Well at least during the old times because now God is for everybody . He happily adapted to current morals .
A lot of people like to say that 'god' stands for World Peace but does he ? He butchered a lot of people in Egypt. Killed a lot of Jews . Flooded the world and killed a lot of other people in general . Made a lot of disasters which probably ruined the life of many people(Consult page 13(Coincidence i guess) for more information ) . AND NOW PEOPLE STILL SAY HE IS FOR WORLD PEACE AFTER THAT ?
P.s By the way . I don't believe in god and Christianity but i DO support the Church thought . The Church did a lot of bad things in the past but now it transformed into something else . They try to help people now instead of killing them . Like 'God is for world peace ' and a lot of charity . Humanitarian support , etc etc etc . But the only bad thing is that they 'twist' the words of 'god' or what is written in the bible to serve their needs . They try to help people with that but i think it is still unacceptable .
They might be helping people now , but what will happen in the future nobody knows ? They might start using religion to kill people in the future ?
Not true. We don't know exactly how God makes the decision. For example, I'm not particularly convinced that just because you aren't sure if you believe in God or not you go straight to hell (if that person was a good, morally driven person). God has compassion and can forgive. Remember the whole Jesus thing? Yeah, he wants to forgive you. He needs your help as well though.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2009, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 10, 2009, 03:54:11 PM
Imho God is a big egoist . Like a little baby if you believe in the Bible and Heaven and Hell concept . So if you do something that god doesn't approve of you go straight to hell . Its either his way or no way at all . Not to mention all of the atheists and blasphemers go strait to hell.
And please don't give me that good only stands for good . There are a lot of paragraphs in the bible that say REALLY BAD STUFF . Someone quoted them back on the 13th page i think(some of them) . Like that you could sell your daughter into slavery and beat her up if she disobeyed you.
If you believe the bible , god also should be put on trile for genocide . The great flood killed a lot of people which is not what a God should do . Isn't it even worse than Muslims god (From a point of view ) .
Christian god just butchered everybody who didn't believe in him and Muslim god kindly says 'I will kill you if you don't believe in me '. At the least Muslim god gives you a chance to survive .
The concept of 'god' judging you after you die is also egoistic . For example if you have lived in times of reformation , wouldn't that mean that all 'reformators of the church' would be judged evil and be sent to hell ? Which path of Christianity does god follow ? Catholic ? Protestant ? Orthodox ? Some stupid other path ? If he follows 1 of those than wouldn't that make other 2 paths 'blasphemy' and 'evil' ? Well at least during the old times because now God is for everybody . He happily adapted to current morals .
A lot of people like to say that 'god' stands for World Peace but does he ? He butchered a lot of people in Egypt. Killed a lot of Jews . Flooded the world and killed a lot of other people in general . Made a lot of disasters which probably ruined the life of many people(Consult page 13(Coincidence i guess) for more information ) . AND NOW PEOPLE STILL SAY HE IS FOR WORLD PEACE AFTER THAT ?
P.s By the way . I don't believe in god and Christianity but i DO support the Church thought . The Church did a lot of bad things in the past but now it transformed into something else . They try to help people now instead of killing them . Like 'God is for world peace ' and a lot of charity . Humanitarian support , etc etc etc . But the only bad thing is that they 'twist' the words of 'god' or what is written in the bible to serve their needs . They try to help people with that but i think it is still unacceptable .
They might be helping people now , but what will happen in the future nobody knows ? They might start using religion to kill people in the future ?
Not true. We don't know exactly how God makes the decision. For example, I'm not particularly convinced that just because you aren't sure if you believe in God or not you go straight to hell (if that person was a good, morally driven person). God has compassion and can forgive. Remember the whole Jesus thing? Yeah, he wants to forgive you. He needs your help as well though.
Say your prayers for the tournament >:D
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2009, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 10, 2009, 03:54:11 PM
Imho God is a big egoist . Like a little baby if you believe in the Bible and Heaven and Hell concept . So if you do something that god doesn't approve of you go straight to hell . Its either his way or no way at all . Not to mention all of the atheists and blasphemers go strait to hell.
And please don't give me that good only stands for good . There are a lot of paragraphs in the bible that say REALLY BAD STUFF . Someone quoted them back on the 13th page i think(some of them) . Like that you could sell your daughter into slavery and beat her up if she disobeyed you.
If you believe the bible , god also should be put on trile for genocide . The great flood killed a lot of people which is not what a God should do . Isn't it even worse than Muslims god (From a point of view ) .
Christian god just butchered everybody who didn't believe in him and Muslim god kindly says 'I will kill you if you don't believe in me '. At the least Muslim god gives you a chance to survive .
The concept of 'god' judging you after you die is also egoistic . For example if you have lived in times of reformation , wouldn't that mean that all 'reformators of the church' would be judged evil and be sent to hell ? Which path of Christianity does god follow ? Catholic ? Protestant ? Orthodox ? Some stupid other path ? If he follows 1 of those than wouldn't that make other 2 paths 'blasphemy' and 'evil' ? Well at least during the old times because now God is for everybody . He happily adapted to current morals .
A lot of people like to say that 'god' stands for World Peace but does he ? He butchered a lot of people in Egypt. Killed a lot of Jews . Flooded the world and killed a lot of other people in general . Made a lot of disasters which probably ruined the life of many people(Consult page 13(Coincidence i guess) for more information ) . AND NOW PEOPLE STILL SAY HE IS FOR WORLD PEACE AFTER THAT ?
P.s By the way . I don't believe in god and Christianity but i DO support the Church thought . The Church did a lot of bad things in the past but now it transformed into something else . They try to help people now instead of killing them . Like 'God is for world peace ' and a lot of charity . Humanitarian support , etc etc etc . But the only bad thing is that they 'twist' the words of 'god' or what is written in the bible to serve their needs . They try to help people with that but i think it is still unacceptable .
They might be helping people now , but what will happen in the future nobody knows ? They might start using religion to kill people in the future ?
Not true. We don't know exactly how God makes the decision. For example, I'm not particularly convinced that just because you aren't sure if you believe in God or not you go straight to hell (if that person was a good, morally driven person). God has compassion and can forgive. Remember the whole Jesus thing? Yeah, he wants to forgive you. He needs your help as well though.
The bible is a bit strange on this question . It doesn't give a correct answer but there are different chapters that suggest so but there are also very contradictory which makes it hard to understand.
I believe if God exists , atheist will probably go to hell .
'The wicked will be burned up like straw and become dust and ashes under the feet of the righteous'
(The beginning of Malachi ch 4)
The Bible says that doing good isn't the criterion for getting to heaven. Perhaps anyone who desires and strives for absolute purity could make it. But the biblical criterion is recognising that, perhaps despite the fact that we may think we've lived good lives, we're still sinners in need of a savior, and so we should accept that Jesus Christ allowed himself to be killed on a cross so he could take the punishment for our sins, and we should turn away from everything we know to be wrongdoing.
Some will find it very encouraging that the Bible teaches that getting to heaven doesn't just depend on how good we've been. If the criterion for getting to heaven was being good, then people who made a sincere commitment to Christ and to live as ethically as possible in obedience to him, which is part of the deal, and died soon afterwards, after having lived immoral lives, would find themselves going to hell despite their latter commitment to follow him and turn away from their sins, because the number of years they had spent sinning would far exceed the amount of time they later spent doing good. Or if they'd done one thing that was very bad but then spent years regretting it, it might still outweigh all the good they'd done and be enough to get them sent to hell, particularly since no one can be entirely good and everyone does things that aren't good throughout their lives. But the Bible says the love of Jesus extends to people who've spent years doing evil things, if they'll only sincerely accept him and turn away from them.
However, the Bible does say that there will be a time when it will be too late. In several places it says that on Judgment Day, people will be judged according to their actions, and those who have done good deeds will go to heaven, while people
who have rejected Christ and done evil will go to hell.
It also says that people who have relied on their own efforts to get to heaven and yet have rejected and scorned Christ, as the Pharisees did, will not get there. And it warns people who think they can rely on their own goodness to get to heaven while not admitting how sinful they really are, as many Pharisees of Jesus' time did, that in fact they are not pleasing God.Jesus said that when he returns and people are judged, people will be divided into those who have done good and those who haven't. The good will go to be with him and the rest will go off into punishment.(Matthew Ch 25)
The problem is that it doesn't say . What if we admitted our sins (Its not like most people nowadays don't understand that they do bad things also alongside good thing ) and do good but still don't believe in Christ . What will happen ? It doesn't give a clear answer .
P.s There is some information in the bible that say that Atheists might still go to heaven but still . It also depends a lot on heaven/hell concept.
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 12, 2009, 11:30:06 AM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 12, 2009, 11:09:53 AM
also watch "George Carlin - Religion is bullshit." in youtube. (comedy)
Watching movies is the worst way to form your opinion. Think for yourself a bit . If you watch a movie in a way it pushes its own opinion on you.
its not a movie its just stand up comedy on youtube.
but ok, u dont have to watch it if u think its gonna start controling your mind. xD
That's why I'm not totally convinced. My best guess is that it depends on the person. You don't reject Christ's teachings, do you? I mean, come on. There are people that don't believe in JESUS, but there aren't many people that wouldn't agree with what he taught.
It seems unclear because God's ultimate judgment isn't black and white. It's not
Believe in God-Heaven
Don't Believe in God-hell
It's not black and white and multiple things would factor into his decision of where your soul will spend eternity. How well have you lived your life? How much do you appreciate life? Do you try to be a good person just for the sake of doing good things? Etc...
But then again believing in his one and only son/messenger probably is a big deal. Jesus DID exist, and that is pretty widely accepted. So therefore it shouldn't be so hard to believe he existed. Believing in Jesus obviously isn't just believing in his physical being though. There's more. Believing in that other part of Jesus is important in God's decision I would say.
I'm just a mere human and this is just my mere guess, so take it for what it's worth.
Oh and Roberto, watching things like that will cement it into your brain. If you watch that, then watch the various Athiesm is Bullshit videos out there. As I've said countless times, get a good balance - THEN come up with an opinion. I can't stand it when people have an opinion beforehand, then watch ONLY things to back up their opinion. Narrowmindedness at its finest.
ive watched a bunch of religious videos, i was in a catholic school untill i got to college.
theres religious people in my family.
theres atheists in my family
believe me i have balance..
oh and the video i told u about called "penn and teller: the bible is bullshit" has oposing views on every argument. plz watch it and dont ignore it because of the title. lol.
i bet your gonna find it intresting.
Papa,
Multiple times the bible states that God picks and chooses who goes to heaven, not based on your faith. Are we predetermined to go to hell? Do we never get a chance? Or is religion the way to believe that when you die, something happens?
Religion was thought up when times were bad. They formed hope. Nothing else. Besides, how many stories about adam and eve could there really be?
1. Creates adam and eve at the same time. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
2. Creates Adam, from dust mind you, and Adam fucks around for a while. Then he takes a rib and makes Eve.
More odd shit...
Light was created BEFORE the sun existed. That just doesn't happen! Even then, plants were created before the sun, which leads to no photosynthesis.
Isiah 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?"
Exodus 31:17 "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
Hmm.... He is tired, but is never tired. Doesn't happen often.
If God is almighty, why does he not stop evil? If he can and won't, he is a douche bag. If he would but he can't, he is not omnipotent. If he can't do either, what qualifies him as a god?
If God is almighty, can he make something so heavy that even he can't lift? PLEASE ANSWER THIS.
Quote
If God is almighty, can he make something so heavy that even he can't lift? PLEASE ANSWER THIS.
The halting-problem is undecidable. Bit lame to ask, but it stays funny.
It proves my point just fine though. Omnipotence doesn't exist.
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 14, 2009, 04:45:52 AM
It proves my point just fine though. Omnipotence doesn't exist.
no, you just prove that an old man with beard in the clouds doesnt exist.
That metaphor doesnt exist in any religion, but people like to use it.
But then, what does a mango taste like if you have never tried it?
Just today I watched a documentary on Catholic run orphanages and womens shelters in Ireland.
They were really no different then Prisons without any kind of trial by the court. These people were physically and mentally abused as children and adults by the Nuns, brainwashed by Catholic Dogma, sexually abused by Priests, and forced to forfeit their newborn children. They committed no crime, but were forced into servitude without any option to escape.
Catholic church is evil, and anyone that associates with such an organization is turning a blind eye to the crimes the church has done in this very century.
I'm confused. OMNIPOTENCE of ANY FORM doesn't exists. Saying he is all powerful and the like basically means omnipotence. It can't happen.
It states numerous times that god can do whatever the hell he wants, whenever he wants. He can't do that, so he is not omnipotent. It also goes on and says he is not all powerful though, but that just proves the bible is a work of fiction and is meant to inspire hope. Which it does a good job at. Damn good.
Quote from: goodkebab on January 14, 2009, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 14, 2009, 04:45:52 AM
It proves my point just fine though. Omnipotence doesn't exist.
no, you just prove that an old man with beard in the clouds doesnt exist.
That metaphor doesnt exist in any religion, but people like to use it.
But then, what does a mango taste like if you have never tried it?
Just today I watched a documentary on Catholic run orphanages and womens shelters in Ireland.
They were really no different then Prisons without any kind of trial by the court. These people were physically and mentally abused as children and adults by the Nuns, brainwashed by Catholic Dogma, sexually abused by Priests, and forced to forfeit their newborn children. They committed no crime, but were forced into servitude without any option to escape.
Catholic church is evil, and anyone that associates with such an organization is turning a blind eye to the crimes the church has done in this very century.
Kebab . Because of actions of few , you can't say that the whole is evil , bad , etc . I really hate when people label 'everything' because of actions of few . It is saying the same as Every Muslim = Terrorist . Or Every Christian = Good Person . Its not that simple . Most of the people on this planet can think for themselves and if they belong to different race , religion , have different size of penis as you , etc , etc . THIS DOESN'T MAKE THEM A LOT DIFFERENT THAN YOU but if someone from that 'group' does something bad , all are labeled as bad guys .
The good example is 'Americans' . A lot of people call them Fat , Hamburger eating , brainwashed by movies , war waging assholes , but you should understand that it's not like that .(I know your from the UK if i am not mistaken) Not all people are FAT in America and not all people wanted war in Iraq . A lot of people (49.99%) voted against Bush but alas (50.01%) voted for him , so ALL are labeled as 'bad' or 'assholes'.
The Church does a LOT more good things to help people . So i support the church in what it does but i don't believe a fairytale with slices of horror about god.
As a majority I guess we are. We use that type of government, and that is our punishment...
Religion is the reason for huge amounts of deaths. ESPECIALLY if the bible is true.
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 14, 2009, 11:17:24 PM
I'm confused. OMNIPOTENCE of ANY FORM doesn't exists. Saying he is all powerful and the like basically means omnipotence. It can't happen.
It states numerous times that god can do whatever the hell he wants, whenever he wants. He can't do that, so he is not omnipotent. It also goes on and says he is not all powerful though, but that just proves the bible is a work of fiction and is meant to inspire hope. Which it does a good job at. Damn good.
The deal with omnipotence is balance. God can't create a rock that he can't lift because it would cause unbalance to all that he did create, which is this reality to you.
Omnipotent doesn't mean all powerful....it means unlimited authority/influence. You also have to remember that he is described as omniscient, which is possessing universal/complete knowledge. Again just reverting back to the balance scheme.
QuoteIt proves my point just fine though. Omnipotence doesn't exist.
I guess I can agree, but I will say that I do believe omniscience exists.
I guess it COULD exist. It is like infinity, you'll never get there, but it is known that it IS there.
Omnipotence on the other hand can't happen. Unlimited power is to broad, causing inconsistencies, like I have shown.
What do you mean it would create imbalance?
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 15, 2009, 03:28:54 AM
What do you mean it would create imbalance?
From what I can tell, everything is based off of balance. The reason I say it would be an imbalance is because of the inconsistency with the idea of big rock too heavy to lift for god. It is inconsistent which is not balanced with what's right in front of you (hence law, nature). To every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Ties in with karma, if you believe it, which I do because its ever so present.
This also means, if there is infinity...then there must be nothing-ness. Things can get infinitely big, then they can get infinitely small. Is there such a thing as "nothing"? There must be right? Wouldn't it be inconsistent? Or, do things get infinitely big to infinitely small with NO saturation points (always something/nothing)?
In some number-theories there is a difference between +0 and -0 IIRC. I didn't study that myself, so I might be wrong.
If you look at omnipotence as will power or ego in the sense of "I lift the rock" " I create the universe" or "I know everything" ....then yeah it doesnt.
But if you look at omnipotence as unfettered consciousness, where the collective minds of all of us on the planet form a few brain cells of bigger brain, or where the pulse of this consciousness vibrates between the very atoms of all matter and energy... then it omnipotence is concievable.
If such a thing is concievable, then it can be experienced....
I was thinking about it more, and the further I dive in the more and more I retract my statement of agreement that omnipotence doesn't exist. HOWEVER, we come to the phrase knowledge is power, therefore experiencing something omniscient would have to prove something to be omnipotent as well. While one can't be bigger than the other, they both go hand in hand.
QuoteBut if you look at omnipotence as unfettered consciousness
This is what I've been dealing with....I was thinking of authority as something concrete when it really isn't. It deals with law, and to perfect law (physics/quantum physics, chemistry) seems to be just one huge chunk of more that we don't know.
EDIT:
Check this out
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html
Quote from: frvge on January 14, 2009, 01:02:51 AM
Quote
If God is almighty, can he make something so heavy that even he can't lift? PLEASE ANSWER THIS.
You didn't word the question correctly. A philosopher said "If God can do anything, can he NOT lift a rock bigger than himself?" If you answer yes, he can lift a rock bigger than himself, then he is not almighty because he can't NOT lift a rock bigger than himself. But if you answer no, he can't lift a rock bigger than himself, then he is still not capable of anything because then he can't lift a rock bigger than himself. It is sort of just a play on words, but at the same time, it could mean something.
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 14, 2009, 12:53:25 AM
Light was created BEFORE the sun existed. That just doesn't happen! Even then, plants were created before the sun, which leads to no photosynthesis.
Stop trying to disprove everything with science. Isn't it true that everything of entity has matter? Yet black holes are known as nothing. They are matter that collapsed upon itself. Explain that with science. I don't think that EVERYTHING has little scientific strings attached to it, some things just aren't explainable.
Of course everything has scientific strings attached to it you fool. If we discovered god was real, or that random lollipops float through space science would still be attached to it because science is essentially the general study of how our universe is built up. A black hole is matter collapsed in on itself onto its own source of gravity, the 'mystical' thing is what happens when you go inside it. As we already know the further away from gravity you are, the slower time progresses, so theoretically you would reach a point where for the person inside the hole, time would appear frozen. My guess is that you are then just crushes into the tiniest measurement possible (exaggeration here, of course), but of course then there's the question of where it all goes.
While we're on the topic of gravity. Who likes the idea that gravity bends space itself rather than pulling objects directly in?
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 14, 2009, 12:53:25 AM
Papa,
Multiple times the bible states that God picks and chooses who goes to heaven, not based on your faith. Are we predetermined to go to hell? Do we never get a chance? Or is religion the way to believe that when you die, something happens?
No, we are not predetermined. FREE WILL. We have it, we can do whatever we wish. It's what we do with that free will that ultimately God will use to make the decision. I don't think that you HAVE to be a follower of the church to get into heaven, and I also don't believe that if you are a follower of the church then you WILL get into heaven. It's all based on our actions. If you were raised atheist, agnostic, islamic, whatever - I'm sure God has sympathy and will judge you not by your faith or lack thereof but by how you lived your life. Say you grew up in Africa, or an island, somewhere where you will never hear of Christianity, it does not mean you go to hell. Goes back to what I just said.
Religion was thought up when times were bad. They formed hope. Nothing else. Besides, how many stories about adam and eve could there really be?
Depends on interpertations. Adam/Eve could be anything. Not just a true story of the origin of man, but a story to inspire morals.
1. Creates adam and eve at the same time. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
2. Creates Adam, from dust mind you, and Adam fucks around for a while. Then he takes a rib and makes Eve.
I'm guessing you watched the penn and teller thing. The Bible is not a history book and cannot be used as one simply because of the multiple interperetations. It's more of a symbol. There are various truths and things found in the bible that have but one interpertation, these things I believe to have more truth than others found in it. Such as, the story of Jesus. Think of this. Suppose there is a God, is it hard to believe that this God had sent a messenger at one point? A messenger he called his son? A messenger to do his best to spread the word of this God and to bring hope/morality to a troubled world? This is why I stick mostly to God and Jesus for truth, and most of the rest are exaggerated truths with various interpertations, but bring about the same message and morals whatever way you interperet those stories. I think this is how it was intended to be.
More odd shit...
Light was created BEFORE the sun existed. That just doesn't happen! Even then, plants were created before the sun, which leads to no photosynthesis.
Remember that God has no care of time or petty human physics. Because of this, the seven days he created our universe could mean any amount of time and not 7 days of 24 hours. 7 days of a billion years maybe, who knows? God was before humans, so would not use the precise human measurement of a day to record how long it took. We aren't in the position to know how he created things completely. How odd would it be if God created "nature"? What if God took 7 "days" to design the creation of the universe? Say God was the one that clumped all this matter together and placed everything so perfectly that the Big Bang resulted in us and countless other beauties. Say God was the one who designed and intended evolution to happen "naturally" to eventually result in humans when the time was right? Who can really say what is natural? Who can really say how exactly God created us? Who can really say that God would not use methods that are (what we percieve as) just natural phenomenon? We can only imagine at this point.
Isiah 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?"
Exodus 31:17 "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
Hmm.... He is tired, but is never tired. Doesn't happen often.
If God is almighty, why does he not stop evil? If he can and won't, he is a douche bag. If he would but he can't, he is not omnipotent. If he can't do either, what qualifies him as a god?
God is a douche bag because he gives humans (and all other animals for that matter) free will? Not his fault that people decide to do evil things. If God stopped evil, we'd practically already be in heaven. Evil will be eventually dealt with in the right way and the righteous will as well.
If God is almighty, can he make something so heavy that even he can't lift? PLEASE ANSWER THIS.
My guess to this attempted trap of a question is that no, he cannot. He could make something infinitely big, or infinitely small, but the size won't matter.
And Ion, God isn't just a strong brute in the clouds lifting billion lb. weights until all his creations are dead. A spirtual being. A designer.
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 16, 2009, 12:32:40 AM
Of course everything has scientific strings attached to it you fool. If we discovered god was real, or that random lollipops float through space science would still be attached to it because science is essentially the general study of how our universe is built up. A black hole is matter collapsed in on itself onto its own source of gravity, the 'mystical' thing is what happens when you go inside it. As we already know the further away from gravity you are, the slower time progresses, so theoretically you would reach a point where for the person inside the hole, time would appear frozen. My guess is that you are then just crushes into the tiniest measurement possible (exaggeration here, of course), but of course then there's the question of where it all goes.
While we're on the topic of gravity. Who likes the idea that gravity bends space itself rather than pulling objects directly in?
Explain to me what lies behind the "never ending" universe then, my all knowing smart fuck.
FFS, let this topic rest already. It's going nowhere and never will be somewhere, it's like dicussions about wheter abortion is right or not, it depends on the people and their way of thinking.
Let everyone believe what he wants to and life your live.
END
Life your live?
lol
And my post didn't get registered I was trying to tell Blank Man to cool his jets.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 16, 2009, 03:37:27 PM
FFS, let this topic rest already. It's going nowhere and never will be somewhere, it's like dicussions about wheter abortion is right or not, it depends on the people and their way of thinking.
Let everyone believe what he wants to and life your live.
END
That's the point of this section of the forum, to talk about stuff. If you can't handle it, simply walk away. This has been a good discussionso far with many viewpoints. I say, keep it coming.
We're not finished untill Tidenburg explains his answer to my question in a way that makes sense. And sinse he can't... fin
Err, just because we don't understand it or can't grasp it in our minds it doesn't mean it doesn't have 'scientific strings attached'. The reality is we'll never know what's out there because it's constantly expanding, but either way, whatever is past the boundaries of our universe must still have a scientific explanation. ;)
ie just because you can't explain it it doesn't mean it's not scientific because if it wasn't science wouldn't try to investigate into it.
QuoteThe reality is we'll never know what's out there because it's constantly expanding, but either way, whatever is past the boundaries of our universe must still have a scientific explanation.
This right here. This is flawed. We only know the scientific laws of OUR universe. Anything beyond that is up to the imagination. I personally believe, beyond our universe, is the domain of OUR universe's designer. But that's just my speculation and it's what I believe to be true, I can't prove that to you though. You cannot tell me definitively that OUR science works even past our universe, you can't prove it anyway.
And who said that our universe is God? Westfall? Anyway, interesting. What if that were swopped and God were the universe and all actions (such as nature or laws of physics) stemmed from him. What if God created the universe, and took up a consiousness inside of all of it? Thus giving him all power and knowledge.
In response to Papa's response to my post:
In reality, I watched it a long ass time ago. Back when I was a Christian. I thought it was ridiculous. But, as I questioned more and more, I found the Skeptics Annotated Bible. It is nice :P. I have the bible on my Itouch for me to read through when I am bored, so it isn't like I just search around for this stuff.
The fact that a good majority of the world lives their entire lives based on a book is bad enough. Let alone that the book has a huge amount of contradictions.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
What a cock! Why would he do such a thing? To test us? Can we be blamed for believing such a strong delusion? Especially when god sent it! If we don't follow this delusion, maybe we aren't smart enough to go to heaven.
Loopholes in the bible: I am an atheist. Should you: Kill me, shun me, or love me? All three are in the bible. Love thy neighbor. Since I am your neighbor, but an atheist, should I be loved or killed?
Ephesians 1 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"
Hmm, I'm sure that says that we are predestined.
Anyway, God is omniscient...right? That means God is lacking in the free will area. He can see the future, meaning he can't choose it. It has been predestined for him to be able to even see it, meaning that there is no way he can choose anything differently. Either way, God shouldn't have free will. he should always choose the most moral and good choice, correct? Well, what about stopping war? What makes it right for millions of families, Christian families, to have to suffer?! Is it serving a greater cause? To populate heaven maybe?
Why do we have free will? The future has no been planned, there is no god, and we can choose to do whatever the hell we want.
In the Bible, God kills so many people, and for what reason? Because they didn't do as he told. At one point he even wipes out a third of the world. Like holy cow man! Even Hitler didn't accomplish that!
Papa, quite the contrary, I believe OUR science is non-existant outside our universe, I believe there are other universes past our boundaries with completely different laws, (I would say laws of physics but even that wouldn't exist).
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 17, 2009, 04:10:17 PM
Papa, quite the contrary, I believe OUR science is non-existant outside our universe, I believe there are other universes past our boundaries with completely different laws, (I would say laws of physics but even that wouldn't exist).
Do you think there are laws undiscovered in this universe? Do you think these other universes have yet to discover our laws? Do you think other universes are beyond us with more complex laws?
Our planet will melt due to global warming before we find anything.
Our planet is not going to melt....we've used too much of our earth's resources and emitted too much into the atmosphere. It's happened before, and a super volcano was the cause. Takes everything in the earth and shoots it out, creating a cloud around the earth causing an ice age. When the cloud settles, the earth can do what its supposed to and restore itself...until something new comes a long and starts eating at it.
I will say it's too late to change what the past generations have done to our planet. Get ready for the ride. If you're on the coast...move to higher locations or inland...Personally, I live on the east coast of the U.S....not looking forward to what's to come if we don't think of something.
Quote from: FR33M4N on January 17, 2009, 06:28:48 PM
Our planet will melt due to global warming before we find anything.
your dumb freeman, the planet wont Melt, the ice caps however are melting as we speak and that = Global flooding =/
Dr.Evil is a prophecy, He predicted this in the movie GoldMember:
"The Tractor beam code name preparation H , powerful enough to pull the meteor Midas 22 to the earths atmosphere ,the hot ball of magma will strike and melt the polar ice caps causing a global flood "
which is kinda the effect global warming is doing at the moment .
QuoteDo you think there are laws undiscovered in this universe? Do you think these other universes have yet to discover our laws? Do you think other universes are beyond us with more complex laws?
Nothing from another universe could pass into ours unless they had the EXACT same laws as us. Q2: Irrelevant, other universes could never cross into ours because they'd be built up of completely different shit to us. And when I say built up they may not even be that, as i've said before you can't even imagine it because the first thing you imagine will probably consist of either matter or other stereotypes your mind is bound to from living in our universe soo long.
1&3: Err, impossible for me too say as there are soo many things in this universe we have not discovered, also 'complex' is pretty subjective to the person who's using it. Also as I said it's irrelevant because we could never understand/find out what the other rules of other universes consist of.
This leads to the awesome questions of "what happens when a universe expands into another?", "do universes expand into each other", "are all universes expanding" and "what is at the edge of our universe."
Quote from: Westfall on January 16, 2009, 07:01:20 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 16, 2009, 03:37:27 PM
FFS, let this topic rest already. It's going nowhere and never will be somewhere, it's like dicussions about wheter abortion is right or not, it depends on the people and their way of thinking.
Let everyone believe what he wants to and life your live.
END
That's the point of this section of the forum, to talk about stuff. If you can't handle it, simply walk away. This has been a good discussionso far with many viewpoints. I say, keep it coming.
i agree with westfall, this is good for when we get bored or whatever :P.
Quote from: FR33M4N on January 17, 2009, 06:28:48 PM
Our planet will melt due to global warming before we find anything.
he didnt mean melt literally. omg guys...
(to agent and westfall)
Most scientists don't look at the world and see how it couldn't of happened by chance. Because they are educated in other theories most realise its completely within reason to expect our universe to be created as it is. What you said about them is complete 100% bullshit because most physicists are completely against the idea of God, infact, most their theories go DIRECTLY AGAINST what you believe in.
Religion is a belief built on the fact that pre 0BC humans looked into the sky and wondered. They wanted to know how things work, why we're here and how we came into existence, stories myths and explanations were drawn up based off no scientific fact. Since then it has been abused to control citizens like flocks of sheep, "god told me to bomb whereever" and the thing is, even in our educated day in age, people like you still buy it. The bible and beliefs you follow are soo primitive, and have been changed so much, that if the prophets did know the rules god gave us, they wouldn't be anything like the ones you know now. So you're pretty much going to hell either way.
We live in a rational world full of irrational people.
yay for happy ending for the atheist side :P
we win :P lol jk but not really.
QuoteReligion is a belief built on the fact that pre 0BC humans looked into the sky and wondered. They wanted to know how things work, why we're here and how we came into existence, stories myths and explanations were drawn up based off no scientific fact.
The only science they had was in the sky...aka the stars, which made up many of the myths we see today. Religion is a power hungry sect, but still does not drop off the ideas of an ultimate start. What's next? What is time? What does magnetism have to do with it? What is dark matter and why can't we see it even though it takes up more than matter?
Quote
This leads to the awesome questions of "what happens when a universe expands into another?", "do universes expand into each other", "are all universes expanding" and "what is at the edge of our universe."
How do we know there are other universes? We know there are different galaxies and solar systems. We can't make it to the edge of our universe. What's at the edge you ask? Darkness, until the light can hit it. Light is still traveling and will continue to until random photon time, which we won't experience as long as we are here. Again though, is it one universe? We can see galaxies, but not universes. In fact, you will never see that word plural. Its universe, because different laws can exist in our universe in different areas given the spread of space.
Sorry it took me a while to comment, getting back into the college scene. Thoughts?
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 27, 2009, 05:14:57 AM
yay for happy ending for the atheist side :P
we win :P lol jk but not really.
I'm glad you started the conversation again.
Quote from: Westfall on January 27, 2009, 06:03:26 AM
How do we know there are other universes? We know there are different galaxies and solar systems. We can't make it to the edge of our universe. What's at the edge you ask? Darkness, until the light can hit it. Light is still traveling and will continue to until random photon time, which we won't experience as long as we are here. Again though, is it one universe? We can see galaxies, but not universes. In fact, you will never see that word plural. Its universe, because different laws can exist in our universe in different areas given the spread of space.
There is no edge. The extreme gravity of the entire universe bends space time so it forms a sphere. As for different universes, there's no way to access them, and they don't affect our world in any way, so they are irrelevant.
As for God, here's my problem with him. He is all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful. Meaning that he knows past, present, and future. If that is true then for him, it's irrelevant to have you live because he knows if you will be good or evil. Making our whole existence irrelevant. And then there's the argument, why doesn't he save starving African kids? They were just born, surely they committed no sin.
How do you know that God doesn't save starving African kids? Or any child killed before his/her first step? The funny thing is that even those that don't impact our world directly still have a purpose. Does God not "save" these people in our world to show an example of how frail and bad life can actually be? To spread appreciation throughout the people who do have running water and food on their plate? I think so.
Those people that don't get to experience life only get to experience an afterlife sooner. God has sympathy, and those that are seemingly robbed of a chance I think are rewarded greatly in heaven.
Speaking of an afterlife, I think it's much different than how we think of it as. Sure, there are Pearly Gates, but what's beyond that? Clouds? I think not. Spirits floating around? Who knows for sure? I think of hell as an eternal blackness, worse than getting burned by flames 24/7. Heaven is much more amazing than we can imagine, and hell is worse than imaginable.
So I hear the Big Bang theory is basically out the window. Now it's the theory of expansion, right? Still doesn't answer how this universe started expanding, does it? Or why. Or how there was anything to expand to begin with. There's that halting problem.
Here's what I think. To begin, there was nothing. Nothing at all. Over infinite periods of time, a consciousness formed in this nothingness. Slowly but surely, a designer came from nothingness. He's the one exception to the rule that something can't come from nothing because that rule did not exist yet, there was no universe. This designer, what we call God, created the laws of physics, created time, created the chemistry of life so that evolution on our planet would result in human beings, designed the eventual "expansion", and initiated the creation of our universe with everything perfectly in place to affect our lives. God is omniscient because he designed the creation of the universe, and so knows what will affect what at what time.
I'm more than likely completely wrong but it's how I see that a God came from nothing. Maybe God always was like the Bible says? But then again, if time doesn't exist, and eventually God came to be in a timeless nothingness, does that mean he always was? Totally boggling. I'm going to bed lol...
Quote from: Kubanator on February 01, 2009, 06:14:50 AM
Quote from: Westfall on January 27, 2009, 06:03:26 AM
How do we know there are other universes? We know there are different galaxies and solar systems. We can't make it to the edge of our universe. What's at the edge you ask? Darkness, until the light can hit it. Light is still traveling and will continue to until random photon time, which we won't experience as long as we are here. Again though, is it one universe? We can see galaxies, but not universes. In fact, you will never see that word plural. Its universe, because different laws can exist in our universe in different areas given the spread of space.
There is no edge. The extreme gravity of the entire universe bends space time so it forms a sphere. As for different universes, there's no way to access them, and they don't affect our world in any way, so they are irrelevant.
As for God, here's my problem with him. He is all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful. Meaning that he knows past, present, and future. If that is true then for him, it's irrelevant to have you live because he knows if you will be good or evil. Making our whole existence irrelevant. And then there's the argument, why doesn't he save starving African kids? They were just born, surely they committed no sin.
Can I get an article for this sphere theory? I think Black Holes have plenty to do with beginnings and endings.
So God should dub light as "good" and dark as "evil". This brings up ideas surrounding matter and dark-matter.
About the sphere theory, if it were an ever-expanding sphere, wouldn't it have edges if it had a shape? If there are no edges, there is no shape.
Quote
If there are no edges, there is no shape.
Why? Planes are square, but also infinite.
QuoteI think Black Holes have plenty to do with beginnings and endings.
Black holes are hardly the thing to end all. They emit energy in the form of heat and blast matter which would obliterate you in an instant from the center up and downward.
--
Also, I feel I should mention that in college last week I met this couple who were religious (guy & girl) and they completely believed that gravity, DNA and the fact that the earth is rounded are lies. Incredible.
Quote from: frvge on February 01, 2009, 08:11:40 PM
Quote
If there are no edges, there is no shape.
Why? Planes are square, but also infinite.
Our idea of a plane is square. But hell, if a plane went on and on forever, with no edges in sight, it could end up being a friggin trapezoid or octagon until edges were formed. An ever expanding plane with no clear edges could be any shape eventually. Speaking hypothetically of course.
What I am saying is that there is really no way we can tell which shape our universe is or will become (sphere, square, whatever) since it is "ever-expanding" and there are no edges.
On the line X = 2 the gradient is infinite, so we know infinite exists. Just because your mind cannot handle the concept (our minds are held back with stereotypes we pick up from living in our universe soo long) it doesn't mean it cannot be a single infinite plane.
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 01, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
QuoteI think Black Holes have plenty to do with beginnings and endings.
Black holes are hardly the thing to end all. They emit energy in the form of heat and blast matter which would obliterate you in an instant from the center up and downward.
lol...you need to check out a little more about black holes. They are infinitely sucking shit into them and breaking down the matter these things are made of. They do not give off energy due to their constant taking in of energy.
HOWEVER, if they were to ever EMIT energy...then they would emit energy in such a way to cause a MASSIVE explosion. Imagine a black hole releasing as opposed to sucking. whoa.
Black Holes are constantly destroying matter that comes near it. In fact, black holes are one of the main causes behind the theory that everything is holographic.
Black Holes have plenty to do with beginnings and endings...what if a black hole could place you...lets say, outside of the box?????
Quote from: Westfall on February 03, 2009, 06:11:38 AM
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 01, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
QuoteI think Black Holes have plenty to do with beginnings and endings.
Black holes are hardly the thing to end all. They emit energy in the form of heat and blast matter which would obliterate you in an instant from the center up and downward.
lol...you need to check out a little more about black holes. They are infinitely sucking shit into them and breaking down the matter these things are made of. They do not give off energy due to their constant taking in of energy.
Oh-so-very wrong. YOU look up black holes. They emit matter BECAUSE of their massive gravitational pull.
So they pull and then push? Uh? I'm with Westfall. They are black because not even light can get out. How would they emit something else? Their presence is merely deducted from the absence of other radiation or curvatures.
I thought the whole point of black holes was that nothing got out.
How are black holes connected to someone being an atheist ? ???
frvge, they don't push. But they emit energy for sure. There are places on the internet you can read this stuff and i'm not sarcastic enough to post a "let me google that for you" link. :)
Edit:
Found - http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970630e.html
there are quite alot of things like these if you look.
Nice article. Notice how he says in one instance that the form of energy emitted gets destroyed instantly, then later states that the form of matter can maintain itself near the hole. The energy emitted doesn't last, and if it does it's a form of matter.
Quote from: Westfall on February 03, 2009, 10:25:40 PM
Nice article. Notice how he says in one instance that the form of energy emitted gets destroyed instantly, then later states that the form of matter can maintain itself near the hole. The energy emitted doesn't last, and if it does it's a form of matter.
He says that the energy is canceled out by the opposing particle. Anti-matter and matter.
He later states that the matter can maintain itself near a black hole because it's counter part releases a lot of energy getting sucked into a black hole, and the only way to maintain unity is to throw the other one in the opposite direction.
Funny how it reverts back to balance
Quote from: Westfall on February 04, 2009, 02:45:06 AM
Funny how it reverts back to balance
Uh how? Everything is based off of balance....
Quote from: Kubanator on February 04, 2009, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: Westfall on February 03, 2009, 10:25:40 PM
Nice article. Notice how he says in one instance that the form of energy emitted gets destroyed instantly, then later states that the form of matter can maintain itself near the hole. The energy emitted doesn't last, and if it does it's a form of matter.
He says that the energy is canceled out by the opposing particle. Anti-matter and matter.
He later states that the matter can maintain itself near a black hole because it's counter part releases a lot of energy getting sucked into a black hole, and the only way to maintain unity is to throw the other one in the opposite direction.
This seems like a whole lot of balance then yes? Piece of matter and its COUNTER PART. This is balance.
Black holes suck :(
so how long will the human era last? will we be establishing in other planets by then? what do u guys think.
or will be die like the dinosaurs lol.
also, another thing; increase in body size is an evolutionary trend. how big will humans get after many years of evolution?
will we turn into giants haha?
thats how dinosaurs started and look at their size before becoming extict lol.
Everything in the universe has a beginning and has an end. Stars , planets , solar systems . They all die eventually and so the humanity will also die one day or the other . The question is how long will we live ?
10 years more 100 years more 1000 years more 100000000 years more ????
I don't see us making it to the year 3,000.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on February 05, 2009, 05:43:31 AM
Black holes suck :(
so how long will the human era last? will we be establishing in other planets by then? what do u guys think.
or will be die like the dinosaurs lol.
also, another thing; increase in body size is an evolutionary trend. how big will humans get after many years of evolution?
will we turn into giants haha?
thats how dinosaurs started and look at their size before becoming extict lol.
For an evolutionary standpoint, there is no advantage to growing larger if you are already at the top. It just increases your metabolism, forcing you to eat more, and making African kids even more hungry.
Quote from: Snakebit. on February 05, 2009, 02:48:07 PM
Everything in the universe has a beginning and has an end. Stars , planets , solar systems . They all die eventually and so the humanity will also die one day or the other . The question is how long will we live ?
10 years more 100 years more 1000 years more 100000000 years more ????
Actually, the universe doesn't need a beginning. It could have always existed. As for how long we will live, likely, it won't be long before humanity is wiped out. Its possible to live long, but not likely.
The universe always has been? Eh, I don't think so. It's quite possible that, if you believe in intelligent design, that time was created after the universe. Who knows for sure? If that's so, then technically the universe always existed. O.o crazy huh? This goes back to what I was saying about the origin of God himself. Since time did not exist when he came to be, maybe that's why in the Bible it says that God always existed? I guess what I'm wondering about here is that back when time did not exist, if something else had existed, does that mean it always was there?
*sigh*
The universe has been here since the beginning of time because as far as we know time doesn't exist outside this universe and was created when it was. Hence why only things since the Big Bang are relevant to us.
Also PapaSkull, you seem to think that the people who wrote the bible had pretty advanced concepts of time and science for people who lived in mudhuts and believed in a man in the sky. :)
The big bang theory can be disproven by the planets/stars that are older than we predict the universe to be. These stars/ planets that are older are scattered as though they existed prior to the big bang. There is no proof as to if the univere has always been around, or just started. Time seems to coincide with photons, and when time expires, these photons will be completely at random.
However, it still seems there are greater energies at work.
Papa, your god doesn't dig being given a label of "he". Also, how does time just start if there is no constant, in this case...the universe. So, god made everything...then pressed play? That's either really deep, or nonsensical. I belive the latter. Let me ask you this: Did God always exist...being created by whom, or did the vast darkness exist finally sparking consciousness?
Talking about the "first thing" is so 2008. I believe we'll either have an answer to it in 2010-2011 because of the LHC, or never.
Because it's Darwin year, what about talking about evolution or the creationists view about that?
What about evolution. Everybody knows it exists but nobody can tell for sure how it works.
^Hehe, some loons wouldn't agree. ;D
Quote from: Westfall on February 07, 2009, 07:13:46 AM
The big bang theory can be disproven by the planets/stars that are older than we predict the universe to be. These stars/ planets that are older are scattered as though they existed prior to the big bang. There is no proof as to if the univere has always been around, or just started. Time seems to coincide with photons, and when time expires, these photons will be completely at random.
However, it still seems there are greater energies at work.
Papa, your god doesn't dig being given a label of "he". Also, how does time just start if there is no constant, in this case...the universe. So, god made everything...then pressed play? That's either really deep, or nonsensical. I belive the latter. Let me ask you this: Did God always exist...being created by whom, or did the vast darkness exist finally sparking consciousness?
No, what I think is this. God designed the creation of the universe. The Big Bang, the expansion, whatever it may actually be. Through this the universe was created. God didn't just plop things out from the sky like a puppet show. So, yes, you could say he was responsible for our universe/the creation of it. Did God always exist? I could not possibly know that. What I was proposing, that since it says God always existed in the Bible, if God came to be in a timeless nothingness does that mean he always existed since there is nothing to measure when he came to be? I don't know, I wasn't saying that this is the way it happened, just saying maybe so.
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 07, 2009, 01:54:35 AM
*sigh*
The universe has been here since the beginning of time because as far as we know time doesn't exist outside this universe and was created when it was. Hence why only things since the Big Bang are relevant to us.
Also PapaSkull, you seem to think that the people who wrote the bible had pretty advanced concepts of time and science for people who lived in mudhuts and believed in a man in the sky. :)
Not at all. I think that the people who wrote the Bible got a basic message from God, or a message from the people who got a message from God, I'm not anyone to say for sure. I think this because each of the stories that are being investigated in the bible are found to be partially/mostly true, with some exaggeration or they are found to have been badly translated throughout the years. Noahs' ark for example was found to be true, just on a smaller scale. A smaller flood, a smaller ark, and less species to unload and repopulate a certain area. Still true, just a bit exaggerated. Or Soddom and Gomorrah. "Fire and Brimstone rained from the sky", but it was really fallout from a giant comet that landed hundreds of miles away. There was no way for people back then to describe exactly what happened. Nowadays we'd think it's impossible for fire to just "rain from the sky" in a non-volcanic area, right? A lack of scientific understanding and multiple translations and such just caused the Bible to appear less of a scientific book or history book, and it's too bad. There is a lot of truth to be found in these words (although I think a lot of it is just to teach us lessons as well). Could this have been intended by God to have the Bible a bit less believable as the years go by? Yet another thing planned by God just to increase the test of faith? Who knows?
These inconsistencies in the stories are not at all surprising with human error and the few translations throughout the road. People that we never thought to exist, at all, are later found to exist. THERE IS truth in the Bible, and there are some exaggerations, but the meat and bones of the stories are true. That's reason enough for me to believe in it, more or less. This is what I recommend. Read it, process the stories, realize that through human error there have been a few changes in the actual text, but a lot of it isn't fictional like you think.
QuoteTHERE IS truth in the Bible, and there are some exaggerations, but the meat and bones of the stories are true. That's reason enough for me to believe in it, more or less. This is what I recommend. Read it, process the stories, realize that through human error there have been a few changes in the actual text, but a lot of it isn't fictional like you think.
The meat and bones are true stories.....I don't even have to say anything here.
This book was written as a moral guideline, with fables upon fables that land us to "and the moral of the story is....". I do not deny that Jesus was a real person who knew how to live and what was morally sound. He was able to make it to a state of nirvana, just like Buddha thought him to have achieved...same thing with Mohamed. Getting rid of want, desire, greed, need, envy....the 7 deadly sins for instance...those are the keys to living a good life. The problem is, with us evolving and growing smarter, we've seen "need" come into play more an more. We're raised on the material factor, which sucks because it's a conditioning that is quite tough to overturn.
One problem I see more than often is "judgment". This is one of the greatest sins you could commit, yet I rarely hear about it.
Quote from: Westfall on February 10, 2009, 04:49:13 AM
QuoteTHERE IS truth in the Bible, and there are some exaggerations, but the meat and bones of the stories are true. That's reason enough for me to believe in it, more or less. This is what I recommend. Read it, process the stories, realize that through human error there have been a few changes in the actual text, but a lot of it isn't fictional like you think.
The meat and bones are true stories.....I don't even have to say anything here.
This book was written as a moral guideline, with fables upon fables that land us to "and the moral of the story is....". I do not deny that Jesus was a real person who knew how to live and what was morally sound. He was able to make it to a state of nirvana, just like Buddha thought him to have achieved...same thing with Mohamed. Getting rid of want, desire, greed, need, envy....the 7 deadly sins for instance...those are the keys to living a good life. The problem is, with us evolving and growing smarter, we've seen "need" come into play more an more. We're raised on the material factor, which sucks because it's a conditioning that is quite tough to overturn.
One problem I see more than often is "judgment". This is one of the greatest sins you could commit, yet I rarely hear about it.
You deny that the meat and bones of the stories in the Bible are true, then you go on to say that you don't doubt the basic story of Jesus? That's like the biggest story, even. Fables upon fables? Fables are written from scratch, nothing true at all - not even the characters in it. Not the Bible.
There are things that are true in the Bible. There are people that have certainly existed in the Bible. There are a lot of things we doubted, then researched, then went "wait a minute, maybe it IS kind of true" or maybe "This person DID exist..." It includes facts. Facts in the stories.
I won't argue with you, however, that a good amount of the Bible is laced with some exaggerations and plain ole moral stories. But this is expected through hundreds of years of retelling and translating. I'm not saying take it word for word. I'm saying: look and read the stories, accept that they could have happened albeit on smaller scales, or maybe they are completely true, or maybe they are just stories intended to teach moral values. DO NOT just say well pfff it's all fiction there's no way God created the Earth in 7 days - that's a terrible mistake. The Bible offers many clues to what happened in those times, many factual clues.
I agree with you on most of the rest.
Do you agree that God did not create the world in 7 days?
Also, while I said I believe in there being a person named Jesus, I did not say I believed in the stories people wrote about him. He seems to have been quite a good person and lived well, but most of the stories are stretched.
Plus the only record from a living source at the time about one of his miracles was proven fake. You'd have thought someone would have wrote about it? 50 or so years is a long game of chinease whispers so to have a book written THAT long after it happened makes it likely the stories were stretched.
Quote from: Westfall on February 10, 2009, 05:13:08 PM
Do you agree that God did not create the world in 7 days?
I don't know. 7 days, could be 7 days of millions of years. 7 days is just a symbol, maybe for 7 different key stages. Maybe the creation of Earth was designed in 7 "days", then he created it.
Also, while I said I believe in there being a person named Jesus, I did not say I believed in the stories people wrote about him. He seems to have been quite a good person and lived well, but most of the stories are stretched.
How are we to know what is stretched or not? How are we to know what is fact or not? This is all that I'm saying. Don't simply think it's all fiction but at the same time say that maybe there is some truth in there. There are some stretches, maybe some exaggerations, but there is truth. We may never know which is which but that's why we can't afford to just simply throw it in the trash.
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 10, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
Plus the only record from a living source at the time about one of his miracles was proven fake. You'd have thought someone would have wrote about it? 50 or so years is a long game of chinease whispers so to have a book written THAT long after it happened makes it likely the stories were stretched.
Yup. The ark wasn't as big as it was stated, but there was an ark, the flood wasn't worldwide, but there was a flood. The parting of the "red sea" might not have been the parting of the ACTUAL RED SEA, but a smaller body of water that was somewhat parted during low tide by a large sand bar. There are exaggerations, but the basic story remains, and it's all that is really needed to teach lessons. It's all that God really cares about remaining. This is simply human error, and to deny everything in the book because of basic human error is foolish.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 10, 2009, 07:24:10 AM
Quote from: Westfall on February 10, 2009, 04:49:13 AM
QuoteTHERE IS truth in the Bible, and there are some exaggerations, but the meat and bones of the stories are true. That's reason enough for me to believe in it, more or less. This is what I recommend. Read it, process the stories, realize that through human error there have been a few changes in the actual text, but a lot of it isn't fictional like you think.
The meat and bones are true stories.....I don't even have to say anything here.
This book was written as a moral guideline, with fables upon fables that land us to "and the moral of the story is....". I do not deny that Jesus was a real person who knew how to live and what was morally sound. He was able to make it to a state of nirvana, just like Buddha thought him to have achieved...same thing with Mohamed. Getting rid of want, desire, greed, need, envy....the 7 deadly sins for instance...those are the keys to living a good life. The problem is, with us evolving and growing smarter, we've seen "need" come into play more an more. We're raised on the material factor, which sucks because it's a conditioning that is quite tough to overturn.
One problem I see more than often is "judgment". This is one of the greatest sins you could commit, yet I rarely hear about it.
You deny that the meat and bones of the stories in the Bible are true, then you go on to say that you don't doubt the basic story of Jesus? That's like the biggest story, even. Fables upon fables? Fables are written from scratch, nothing true at all - not even the characters in it. Not the Bible.
There are things that are true in the Bible. There are people that have certainly existed in the Bible. There are a lot of things we doubted, then researched, then went "wait a minute, maybe it IS kind of true" or maybe "This person DID exist..." It includes facts. Facts in the stories.
I won't argue with you, however, that a good amount of the Bible is laced with some exaggerations and plain ole moral stories. But this is expected through hundreds of years of retelling and translating. I'm not saying take it word for word. I'm saying: look and read the stories, accept that they could have happened albeit on smaller scales, or maybe they are completely true, or maybe they are just stories intended to teach moral values. DO NOT just say well pfff it's all fiction there's no way God created the Earth in 7 days - that's a terrible mistake. The Bible offers many clues to what happened in those times, many factual clues.
I agree with you on most of the rest.
Many actuall facts how god created earth in 7 days ? Thats nice , last time i checked i didn't find any. Not to mention that some of those 'facts' don't actually fit in modern science.(Guess they will need to correct it in the soon coming 100 years, need to keep the bible up with modern science. The church doesn't like a lot of scientists because some of their inventions 'disprove' the existance of god. Makes some thing in the bible sound like utter crap) If you can even call them facts. All that is written , how god created the earth , might be called a theory . If it had some facts ,it would have been proved by now and all the scientists would shut up about the Big Bang theory and other theories.
But really , right now , there is a big contradiction between how god created earth in 7 days and modern science.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 11, 2009, 12:58:05 AM
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 10, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
Plus the only record from a living source at the time about one of his miracles was proven fake. You'd have thought someone would have wrote about it? 50 or so years is a long game of chinease whispers so to have a book written THAT long after it happened makes it likely the stories were stretched.
Yup. The ark wasn't as big as it was stated, but there was an ark, the flood wasn't worldwide, but there was a flood. The parting of the "red sea" might not have been the parting of the ACTUAL RED SEA, but a smaller body of water that was somewhat parted during low tide by a large sand bar. There are exaggerations, but the basic story remains, and it's all that is really needed to teach lessons. It's all that God really cares about remaining. This is simply human error, and to deny everything in the book because of basic human error is foolish.
The flood was a continental devastation. Do you even know how the flood happened? I can't wait for that answer. I assume you think it rained for 40 days/40 nights. Get ready for the idea that rain and weather had nothing to do with it. Also, I assume you believe that Noah....took 2 of every animal/insect in the wooooorld. Such good credibility there.
Smaller body of water...how about a shallow lake. The translation is sea of reeds. The Reed Sea is a shallow lake, but if in fact it is talking about the "Sea of Reeds", do you know what a Reed is? How about somewhere equivocal to grain or wheat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/canarywu/1934275905/
Denying what the book says due to human error is not foolish, and such a statement is arrogant. A book was created out of power-mongering. It has some truth, but so much is stretched to catch the innocent, ignorant minds of humans that you can't even see the bigger picture. I would take experience of a life through good morals, than experience of a life through a book's guidelines of good morals. ESPECIALLY when those morals are not always good (i.e. beating wives, selling wives, whoring wives/daughters, no such thing as homosexuality, thoughts of homosexuality being a disease, etc.). The only thing the Bible has going for it is the powerful thought of someone as pure as Jesus, which can still be compared to that of Buddha and Mohamed.
Quote from: Westfall on February 11, 2009, 10:36:27 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 11, 2009, 12:58:05 AM
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 10, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
Plus the only record from a living source at the time about one of his miracles was proven fake. You'd have thought someone would have wrote about it? 50 or so years is a long game of chinease whispers so to have a book written THAT long after it happened makes it likely the stories were stretched.
Yup. The ark wasn't as big as it was stated, but there was an ark, the flood wasn't worldwide, but there was a flood. The parting of the "red sea" might not have been the parting of the ACTUAL RED SEA, but a smaller body of water that was somewhat parted during low tide by a large sand bar. There are exaggerations, but the basic story remains, and it's all that is really needed to teach lessons. It's all that God really cares about remaining. This is simply human error, and to deny everything in the book because of basic human error is foolish.
The flood was a continental devastation. Do you even know how the flood happened? I can't wait for that answer. I assume you think it rained for 40 days/40 nights. Get ready for the idea that rain and weather had nothing to do with it. Also, I assume you believe that Noah....took 2 of every animal/insect in the wooooorld. Such good credibility there.
No. Quit assuming. I'm quite open to logic and reason.
Smaller body of water...how about a shallow lake. The translation is sea of reeds. The Reed Sea is a shallow lake, but if in fact it is talking about the "Sea of Reeds", do you know what a Reed is? How about somewhere equivocal to grain or wheat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/canarywu/1934275905/
Yeah, this is where I agreed with you. Where is the indiff smiley when we need one? Just because there were some exaggerations in the Bible is no reason to not believe that a parting of some body of water parted allowing them to walk through it. Is it? That's what I'm saying.
Denying what the book says due to human error is not foolish, and such a statement is arrogant. A book was created out of power-mongering. It has some truth, but so much is stretched to catch the innocent, ignorant minds of humans that you can't even see the bigger picture. I would take experience of a life through good morals, than experience of a life through a book's guidelines of good morals. ESPECIALLY when those morals are not always good (i.e. beating wives, selling wives, whoring wives/daughters, no such thing as homosexuality, thoughts of homosexuality being a disease, etc.). The only thing the Bible has going for it is the powerful thought of someone as pure as Jesus, which can still be compared to that of Buddha and Mohamed.
Denying everything in it is very foolish. Some of the stories were exaggerated, sure, but this does not mean the basic story is untrue. Maybe due to those people not seeing anything like this before they wrote about it in amazing esteem. A simple parting of a sea of reeds boggled the minds of those who got the message, and so was exaggerated through the generations. This is no reason to take these stories w/o 1 grain of salt. Can't we both agree to this somewhat?
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2009, 03:48:40 AM
I'm quite open to logic and reason.
I wonder if anyone else on this forum would agree.
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on February 12, 2009, 04:37:12 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2009, 03:48:40 AM
I'm quite open to logic and reason.
I wonder if anyone else on this forum would agree.
Papa you are open to logic but you are not open to reason . It seems that you have never ever attempted to think that you might be wrong sometimes.
You remind me of ego-centric 9-13 year old children when i read your posts in some threads....
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on February 12, 2009, 04:37:12 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2009, 03:48:40 AM
I'm quite open to logic and reason.
I wonder if anyone else on this forum would agree.
Just because I'm open to reasoning doesn't mean I'm going to agree with a lot of the bullshit I read on this forum. I'd bet you money that a lot of people wouldn't even take the conversation this far. "Oh, you don't fully trust the Bible 100%? Then I'm OUTIE!" I'm not like that. Absolutely not. Tell me your reasons behind your beliefs, I'll try to argue if I disagree.
Quote from: Snakebit. on February 12, 2009, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on February 12, 2009, 04:37:12 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2009, 03:48:40 AM
I'm quite open to logic and reason.
I wonder if anyone else on this forum would agree.
Papa you are open to logic but you are not open to reason . It seems that you have never ever attempted to think that you might be wrong sometimes.
You remind me of ego-centric 9-13 year old children when i read your posts in some threads....
Open to logic, but not to reason? That's a really stretched attempt at, well, something. I hope you use logic in your reasoning because they aren't really separate things. I definitely think I could be wrong. You could apply the same accusation of me not thinking I could be wrong to ANYBODY here that argues with me. Could I not ever be right? You're all always right, I'm always wrong? I'm not accusing anyone here of that I'm just saying that maybe you should think about why you're accusing me of this. For arguing with people to express my opinion? Take a look in the mirror or take that ridiculous comment back.
Like, what do you want from me? Lol to renounce my faith? Then you'll look at me in a different light? In this thread, we've had more conversations than arguments. More "get to the bottom of this" conversations than "F YOU YOU'RE WRONG" moments, agree? It's been much more constructive than destructive, and very interesting. Don't you think that because I find a lot of the theories here interesting, then I must be open to ideas? I'm not set in stone, no one should be.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 13, 2009, 06:12:02 AM
Just because I'm open to reasoning doesn't mean I'm going to agree with a lot of the bullshit I read on this forum.
Bullshit like anything which suggests that you could be wrong?
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 13, 2009, 06:12:02 AM
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on February 12, 2009, 04:37:12 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2009, 03:48:40 AM
I'm quite open to logic and reason.
I wonder if anyone else on this forum would agree.
Just because I'm open to reasoning doesn't mean I'm going to agree with a lot of the bullshit I read on this forum. I'd bet you money that a lot of people wouldn't even take the conversation this far. "Oh, you don't fully trust the Bible 100%? Then I'm OUTIE!" I'm not like that. Absolutely not. Tell me your reasons behind your beliefs, I'll try to argue if I disagree.
Quote from: Snakebit. on February 12, 2009, 07:32:25 PM
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on February 12, 2009, 04:37:12 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2009, 03:48:40 AM
I'm quite open to logic and reason.
I wonder if anyone else on this forum would agree.
Papa you are open to logic but you are not open to reason . It seems that you have never ever attempted to think that you might be wrong sometimes.
You remind me of ego-centric 9-13 year old children when i read your posts in some threads....
Open to logic, but not to reason? That's a really stretched attempt at, well, something. I hope you use logic in your reasoning because they aren't really separate things. I definitely think I could be wrong. You could apply the same accusation of me not thinking I could be wrong to ANYBODY here that argues with me. Could I not ever be right? You're all always right, I'm always wrong? I'm not accusing anyone here of that I'm just saying that maybe you should think about why you're accusing me of this. For arguing with people to express my opinion? Take a look in the mirror or take that ridiculous comment back.
Like, what do you want from me? Lol to renounce my faith? Then you'll look at me in a different light? In this thread, we've had more conversations than arguments. More "get to the bottom of this" conversations than "F YOU YOU'RE WRONG" moments, agree? It's been much more constructive than destructive, and very interesting. Don't you think that because I find a lot of the theories here interesting, then I must be open to ideas? I'm not set in stone, no one should be.
Logic and reason are not the same thing. I won't explain it to you , it is complicated. Read the book ' The development of logic. by William Kneale and Martha Kneale . Pages 1-96. Actually you can read the whole book if you really want to . But it is pretty complicated.
Plato logic , Aristotles logic and Megarian schools logic of the Antient Greeks . Reason is a part of logic but its not one and the same.
Even the Greeks discovered that there are flaws in logic or so to speak in their logic.For example.
Aristotles sylogisms.
This is a pen . This is blue . Therefore this is a blue pen. This seems logical and true.
That dog is a father . That dog is his . There dog is his father . That seems logical but its not true.
One of the big problems of logic during the Greek times was that you could disprove most of the Eristic logic(1st one) with Sophistic logic.(2nd one)
Which you tried to do by the way. In logic there must be connection between things with reason or reasoning or definitions or defining which is described on those pages to some extent.
Quote from: HYPER STAG BEETLE on February 13, 2009, 08:51:20 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 13, 2009, 06:12:02 AM
Just because I'm open to reasoning doesn't mean I'm going to agree with a lot of the bullshit I read on this forum.
Bullshit like anything which suggests that you could be wrong?
No. Bullshit like anything that is bullshit. Like saying that the Bible is a complete work of fiction, while disregarding the numerous truths found inside it.
it seems like you're still missing the bigger picture papa. Take your head away from the man-made book. It clogs your mind with stories to make you worship the church and throw them more cash, which in turn gives them a grip on your sack.
I personally haven't paid a cent to any organized religion in my lifetime. I have no doubt that the Bible was man-made but it's a matter of faith of whether you believe the Bible was inspired by messages from God or not. That's a personal decision and only experiences in your life can lead you to ACTUALLY believe that there is a deity, intelligent designer, a universal and all knowing consiousness, or God, whatever you wish to call it. I've seen what the Bible can do for people, I've seen what Jesus can do for people, and it's quite amazing. There is just a feeling you get. You must combine your feelings with logic and reasoning to deduct what you really believe. All the pieces just seem to add up for me. Who knows? Over time you may see that a God is very possible, a lot of people do.
Over time, most of us have found that god is impossible...
People tend to exaggurate the positive sides and ignore the negative sides.
In religion it's like:
"OMG God answer my prayer of last week, so he must exist"
While what's not said is:
"... the other 52 weeks he didn't answer my prayers..."
See my point?
A christian will always see 1% of prayers answered as definate proof there is God, even though the other 99%+ are ignored.
99% of what people want is never what they really need. You atheists, for whatever reason, just love to talk about the unanswered prayers. And why? It's like if I pray for a power rangers action figure to show up in my arms when I wake up the next day, and it doesn't, then God doesn't exist? Come on. I believe everything, well most things, happen for a reason. And those humble people that pray for a loaf of bread so they can feed their children the next day will either get what they need in our world or be looked on with amazing sympathy on judgment day.
As I've said before, those without anything, those who may not even take a first step, serve a big purpose in the overall feeling of appreciation in our world. That's a bigger purpose than you or I will ever serve, and we've taken many steps in our lives. ;)
When I pray, I don't pray a whole lot, I let God know how I'm feeling. I ask him to watch over my family, keep us safe, bless us as much as needed with health, wealth, and happiness.
So far about 99% have been answered, so, yeah. If one day my mom or dad suddenly dies of a heart attack then I'm not going to say that there's no way God exists because my prayers were not answered. There's a reason for it whatever it may be.
I don't think my petty pleas have any effect on God or jerk at his heart, because all our mortal affairs are moot in the long run anyways, but I think the real importance of praying is just letting God know that you trust in him and how he designed the universe to operate.
I guarantee you god has not answered 99% of your prayers. In fact, he hasn't answered any of them. If he did, what would be the point of free will? This is all an experiment based primarily on emotion. The only thing that god would interject with are what tests and trials we go through everyday. Believe it or not, you are recording constantly. All of your thoughts could relate to praying.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2009, 07:13:33 AM
99% of what people want is never what they really need.
Haha, What about people with Cancer, well wishers and the like? ALOT more than 1% of prayers are selfless.
QuoteYou atheists, for whatever reason, just love to talk about the unanswered prayers. And why? It's like if I pray for a power rangers action figure to show up in my arms when I wake up the next day, and it doesn't, then God doesn't exist? Come on.
Retarded, "You athiests" is massively stereotypical for a start, not all athiests even give two shits what crazy shit you believe in. I'm not talking about selfish wishes like those. MOST prayers from cancer patients families go un-noticed, you can't say God is real for the ones who survive becauses it's such a small amount and there is also the probability that it will just happen anyway.
QuoteI believe everything, well most things, happen for a reason. And those humble people that pray for a loaf of bread so they can feed their children the next day will either get what they need in our world or be looked on with amazing sympathy on judgment day.
Unless judgement day is within their lifetime, they won't appreiciate this. If they are at heavens door i'm pretty sure they will still be mad at the suffering God has put them through.
Quote
As I've said before, those without anything, those who may not even take a first step, serve a big purpose in the overall feeling of appreciation in our world. That's a bigger purpose than you or I will ever serve, and we've taken many steps in our lives. ;)
I won't even touch that, you sound like a philosophical hippy.
Quote
When I pray, I don't pray a whole lot, I let God know how I'm feeling. I ask him to watch over my family, keep us safe, bless us as much as needed with health, wealth, and happiness.
Wealth? That's a pretty selfish thing to hope for, most people (and the common pairing) is that of health and happiness.
Quote
So far about 99% have been answered, so, yeah. If one day my mom or dad suddenly dies of a heart attack then I'm not going to say that there's no way God exists because my prayers were not answered. There's a reason for it whatever it may be.
Bullshit, that's completely skewing the facts. If I preyed to God everynight that when I wake up the earth will still be here for 100 nights, I could come away and say my prayers have a 100% success rate. The odds of your mother being hit by a car are VERY low. This is the same for many things. My family is quite wealthy, no-one has been sick for ages and we're all very happy (happy athiest? GASP), I don't account this to god, I account it to the fact that the probability of my Dad losing his job, someone getting a severe illness and therefore us being despressed is relatively low.
Quote
I don't think my petty pleas have any effect on God or jerk at his heart, because all our mortal affairs are moot in the long run anyways, but I think the real importance of praying is just letting God know that you trust in him and how he designed the universe to operate.
In otherwords, wishing for somthing -when it already has a high probability of it happening regardless - is no proof whatsoever that your prayer was answered.
In the bible Jesus says that if I ask for a mountain to be moved then it will happen, why would I ever want to do that? Nowhere does the bible say God only answers selfless prayers. So who is a liar? Jesus or the Bible? (I guess both.)
Cute. It never ceases to amaze me at how niave and ignorant some religious people can be. God's universe is SHIT, there are soo many flaws in the humans design for starters (implying God must be imperfect if we were made in his own image) let alone the universe; and don't throw your "you're so ungrateful" shit at me either, because as far as i'm concerned the universe was created via means we don't fully understand and not some sort of 'being', therefore I have no-one to be grateful to eitherway.
I'll say this: If god is real, he's shit at what he does, he's an utter asswipe and can burn in the imaginary depths of hell for all I care.
Blasphemy, Blasphemy, Blasphemy, Blasphemy. Jesus fucking Christ incest fucking mary.
When I get struck down for saying things like that (which I should be if the bible is to be believed) then maybe i'll listen to you a bit more. ;)
Also on answering your prayers, if you say God is the reason that anything happens if you prey for it then you're throwing logic and probability out of the window. If I prey for a heads on a coin (don't quote God doesn't play dice or I may have to hunt you down ;D ) and it is a heads, then you say God did it, what about probability? There was a 50/50 chance of that anyway!
Arguing with papa is useless . He is a Christian who is for torture without a reason . He is also for the war in Iraq . Oh yeah i almost forgot that he is for christian morals but also against them when needed. Who cares about the people if there is democracy and 1.5 million have died in Iraq Duh.
Who cares that the bible says that One should not kill and things like that.......
None of you obviously even read my whole post.
Westfall. Check out my last sentence. You try to make a point that God doesn't answer my prayers and then you ignore my sentence that says that God probably doesn't answer prayers. Wtf.
Tidenburg. You try to make a point about people who pray to survive, then ignore what I said about people who PRAY TO SURVIVE. Wtf.
Snakebit. Torture without reason? Dude, you are stupid. Simply put. I have no time for your shit anymore.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2009, 10:54:11 PM
None of you obviously even read my whole post.
Westfall. Check out my last sentence. You try to make a point that God doesn't answer my prayers and then you ignore my sentence that says that God probably doesn't answer prayers. Wtf.
Tidenburg. You try to make a point about people who pray to survive, then ignore what I said about people who PRAY TO SURVIVE. Wtf.
Snakebit. Torture without reason? Dude, you are stupid. Simply put. I have no time for your shit anymore.
Problem is that i don't think that 'suspecting' someone is a reason to torture. But you do.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2009, 10:54:11 PM
None of you obviously even read my whole post.
Westfall. Check out my last sentence. You try to make a point that God doesn't answer my prayers and then you ignore my sentence that says that God probably doesn't answer prayers. Wtf.
Then what's the point of you praying aside from your hopes that someone is listening?
Bible is to conservatism is to republican is to torture is to bible is to denying toture is to contradicting ideals is to religion is to moral values is to killing gay people is to nonsense is to thinking that america has been castrated.
i didnt put all of it in the optimal order, but yeah, it pretty much sums papaskull up imo.
Real mature and sensical, roberto. Don't expect much else though.
QuoteProblem is that i don't think that 'suspecting' someone is a reason to torture. But you do.
No.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi243.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff206%2FMisterRobbie%2F16x16_smiley-indifferent-1.gif&hash=8cbf9d666ae3b694231ed7990fec51a59d8a91e1)
Reason to torture is saving innocent lives.
lol2
x( x| x[ :( :| :[ x( x| x[ :( :| :[ x(
Killing gay people? You obviously have no idea what I'm about, so shut it. Not funny, totally ridiculous, as of now your opinion of me is moot and I couldn't care less what you think.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 17, 2009, 07:09:01 AM
Killing gay people? You obviously have no idea what I'm about, so shut it. Not funny, totally ridiculous, as of now your opinion of me is moot and I couldn't care less what you think.
Calm down papa , he was just being sarcastic .
So, anyone else agree that Papa's open to reason? Please speak up if you do.
Well, snakebit said I was open to logic. Which is umm, a part of reasoning, but, umm, I'm not open to reason? Does that make sense? No. This was just his attempt at saying, well, you have your points, but they aren't in complete accordance with my points, so I'll just say you aren't open to reason but you are open to logic. wtf...
And what a garbage question this is Beetle. Say I got a bunch of people who agreed with me. Then say we all took a poll and asked if you were an idiot or not. We'd all say yes, but it doesn't mean you are, it just means we don't completely agree on much. Good try though, real manly. Rather get your buddies than talk it out. Won't act like this unless you got people behind you, I can guarantee you that. I could do without your snide comments and your attitude like you think you know it all, but good news, it's the internet! You can do that on the internet! Lucky you. Grow up.
Answer my question plz.
Quote from: Westfall on February 17, 2009, 04:14:21 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2009, 10:54:11 PM
None of you obviously even read my whole post.
Westfall. Check out my last sentence. You try to make a point that God doesn't answer my prayers and then you ignore my sentence that says that God probably doesn't answer prayers. Wtf.
Then what's the point of you praying aside from your hopes that someone is listening?
I said what I think the importance of praying is in that one post that I said you didn't fully read, surprise surprise. I think it's just that letting God know that you trust in Him, or Her, or whatever God really is. Sometimes your prayers may be answered, most of the time, not. But if your prayers were answered 100% of the time, or even half the time, the test of faith would not be a test at all. If we all had obvious evidence then there would be no point for us to be here.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2009, 01:07:47 AM
Well, snakebit said I was open to logic. Which is umm, a part of reasoning, but, umm, I'm not open to reason? Does that make sense? No. This was just his attempt at saying, well, you have your points, but they aren't in complete accordance with my points, so I'll just say you aren't open to reason but you are open to logic. wtf...
And what a garbage question this is Beetle. Say I got a bunch of people who agreed with me. Then say we all took a poll and asked if you were an idiot or not. We'd all say yes, but it doesn't mean you are, it just means we don't completely agree on much. Good try though, real manly. Rather get your buddies than talk it out. Won't act like this unless you got people behind you, I can guarantee you that. I could do without your snide comments and your attitude like you think you know it all, but good news, it's the internet! You can do that on the internet! Lucky you. Grow up.
Have you ever thought that you might be wrong ? In all your 2800 posts have you ever changed your opinion when you are disputing with someone ? . (P.s. Don't bring the flamethrower topic in here , it was retarded and i think you actually changed your opinion in the end in there )
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2009, 01:07:47 AM
And what a garbage question this is Beetle. Say I got a bunch of people who agreed with me. Then say we all took a poll and asked if you were an idiot or not. We'd all say yes, but it doesn't mean you are, it just means we don't completely agree on much.
But this isn't me getting a bunch of people who agree with me, this is me asking a random selection of people. I have absolutely no control over who posts here, or what they say. Nobody seems to think that you can be swayed by reason, though, I wonder why that is?
I dunno, let's just stick with the idea that I'm some sort of grand manipulator that's turned the forum against you. That's much easier than contemplating the idea that you might be imperfect, isn't it?
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2009, 07:13:52 AM
Quote from: Westfall on February 17, 2009, 04:14:21 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2009, 10:54:11 PM
None of you obviously even read my whole post.
Westfall. Check out my last sentence. You try to make a point that God doesn't answer my prayers and then you ignore my sentence that says that God probably doesn't answer prayers. Wtf.
Then what's the point of you praying aside from your hopes that someone is listening?
I said what I think the importance of praying is in that one post that I said you didn't fully read, surprise surprise. I think it's just that letting God know that you trust in Him, or Her, or whatever God really is. Sometimes your prayers may be answered, most of the time, not. But if your prayers were answered 100% of the time, or even half the time, the test of faith would not be a test at all. If we all had obvious evidence then there would be no point for us to be here.
Its still not an answer to my question....surprise surprise. The only close thing is your babble about "test of faith". I asked what the point of praying was aside from your hopes of someone listening? I don't want the same answer again that "well, if god is listening then blah blah". I want to know why YOU pray. You don't pray to show trust in anything. That's not a very good way of being trustworthy, hiding your thoughts in your head.
Also, if we had obvious evidence, then there would be more incentive to be here. Seems like you're a big faith person Papa. Hope it works for you.
just to heaten up the discussion: i have this theory that having a critical mind is reciprocally proportional to believing in bullshit like the concept of god...
Do you really had to call it 'bullshit'? ... kinda low debating skills.
Heating up an already flaming subject isnt really ... useful.
I'm mostly keeping aside, as by the wish of the community to have a fairly unmoderated Off-Topic-section.
You might as well lock this one up too. I'm done with the hypocritical nonsense, and the topic starter is pretty much done here too. We don't need this topic anymore.
:( my thread ?!?! noooooo! :'(
Come on its like 30 more posts and its gonna be the largest topic in the whole forum.
HAHAHAHA....seems like its losing its flare though.
sweeet!
is which thread has the record right now?
is it the "prone-crawling" thread by Qlemont?
About the mercs rifle topic or something like that. Has the record of 340 posts this has 324 or 325 right now.
i bet this one wins in word count though, theres really really looooonng posts xD.
Quote from: Westfall on February 18, 2009, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2009, 07:13:52 AM
Quote from: Westfall on February 17, 2009, 04:14:21 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2009, 10:54:11 PM
None of you obviously even read my whole post.
Westfall. Check out my last sentence. You try to make a point that God doesn't answer my prayers and then you ignore my sentence that says that God probably doesn't answer prayers. Wtf.
Then what's the point of you praying aside from your hopes that someone is listening?
I said what I think the importance of praying is in that one post that I said you didn't fully read, surprise surprise. I think it's just that letting God know that you trust in Him, or Her, or whatever God really is. Sometimes your prayers may be answered, most of the time, not. But if your prayers were answered 100% of the time, or even half the time, the test of faith would not be a test at all. If we all had obvious evidence then there would be no point for us to be here.
Its still not an answer to my question....surprise surprise. The only close thing is your babble about "test of faith". I asked what the point of praying was aside from your hopes of someone listening? I don't want the same answer again that "well, if god is listening then blah blah". I want to know why YOU pray. You don't pray to show trust in anything. That's not a very good way of being trustworthy, hiding your thoughts in your head.
Also, if we had obvious evidence, then there would be more incentive to be here. Seems like you're a big faith person Papa. Hope it works for you.
I told you why I pray. I don't give a rat's ass about your approval for my reasons. "You don't pray to show trust in anything." Dude, who do you think you are? "hiding your thoughts in your head." How am I hiding my thoughts in my head by letting God know the thoughts in my head? Ummm, makes 0 sense.
And the bolded part. You're just flat out wrong on this one. If we saw God in the sky and he yelled at us when we were wrong, then we wouldn't be here for anything. All we'd do is stay inside and pray to God and worship him or we'd go to hell. That's not what God wants. He put us here to test our faith in him. W/ cold hard undeniable evidence that God exists, ala giant eyeballs in the sky, we'd be petty ants with no reason to live and experience life. God does not want us to be homebodies. It's like cheating on a test. If you have all the answers, what's the point of the test?
A man of faith? I am to a certain extent. It's better than being a man of numbers/spreadsheets - or in other words a piece of meat. You could say I'm in the middle of the spectrum.
Meat------------------Me---------------Ignorant to any facts
Faith increases>>>>>>>>>
Quote from: Rambo on February 18, 2009, 04:15:44 PM
just to heaten up the discussion: i have this theory that having a critical mind is reciprocally proportional to believing in bullshit like the concept of god...
Even the concept of a God is bullshit? How about the concept of the universe randomly creating itself, from stuff that shouldn't have existed yet, but somehow clumped itself together, then somehow exploded or just started to expand?
You can't know there isn't a God, and you can't know that there is. No one really does. Leave it to an atheist to tell everyone that he
does know, somehow.
you're all stupid.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 23, 2009, 06:18:44 AM
Quote from: Rambo on February 18, 2009, 04:15:44 PM
just to heaten up the discussion: i have this theory that having a critical mind is reciprocally proportional to believing in bullshit like the concept of god...
Even the concept of a God is bullshit? How about the concept of the universe randomly creating itself, from stuff that shouldn't have existed yet, but somehow clumped itself together, then somehow exploded or just started to expand?
You can't know there isn't a God, and you can't know that there is. No one really does. Leave it to an atheist to tell everyone that he does know, somehow.
We just don't know the answer to that right now. But we will have it probably in a good 200-300 years. Then a religious person would say some other thing which wasn't discovered yet.
Its like oh look its raining and there is lightning. The god must be in a bad mood and he is also crying but we now know it is not like that.
What proves to you for atleast 80% percent that god exists tell me ? And lets look at everything as facts , percent wise , for example one might say that i prayed for rain and it started to rain but the percent of it is actually high during different times of the year and things like that.
I will respond to you later this evening Papa. For clarification before I do, with reference to your "piece of meat statement...I hope that wasn't in reference to me.
Quote from: Nosis on February 23, 2009, 06:50:18 AM
you're all stupid.
dont enlighten us please, for our reason of existance is pointless if we cheat the ultimate test of faith!
fuck u nosis xD
To Papaskull.
Meat------------------Me(PapaSkull)---------------Ignorant to any facts
Faith increases>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<Intelligence increases
u cant that my "Intelligence:faith ratio table" which is a ripped off and modded version of your "faith-o-meter"
is incorrect because you wrote "ignorant to any facts" on the right side.
so yeah. now you can easily/realistically see where u are in the "spectrum".
;)
i think you mean enlighten.
Quote from: Nosis on February 24, 2009, 12:41:07 AM
i think you mean enlighten.
i meant illustrate xD
but yea enlighten is better lol
Quote
I told you why I pray. I don't give a rat's ass about your approval for my reasons. "You don't pray to show trust in anything." Dude, who do you think you are? "hiding your thoughts in your head." How am I hiding my thoughts in my head by letting God know the thoughts in my head? Ummm, makes 0 sense.
How are you hiding your thoughts in your head by letting God know the thoughts in your head? Here's a clue smartass...you're CONSTANTLY thinking. Thought IS prayer, therefore you are always praying....or thinking. You think while you ANYTHING, whether it be focusing or wandering off in your mind. It gets recorded. THEREFORE, if you are going off and praying, it wouldn't matter b/c God would always know what you were thinking or what your thoughts were. Praying is thinking, but keep telling yourself otherwise.
QuoteAnd the bolded part. You're just flat out wrong on this one. If we saw God in the sky and he yelled at us when we were wrong, then we wouldn't be here for anything. All we'd do is stay inside and pray to God and worship him or we'd go to hell. That's not what God wants. He put us here to test our faith in him. W/ cold hard undeniable evidence that God exists, ala giant eyeballs in the sky, we'd be petty ants with no reason to live and experience life. God does not want us to be homebodies. It's like cheating on a test. If you have all the answers, what's the point of the test?
I'm only going to say free will to this one. Even if you knew there was a set of eye-balls in the sky you would still act under free will and try to be a good person right? So why act any different if you don't know there is a huge set of eyeballs in the sky? That's not a test of faith, its a test of life. Can you live? Can you live with a morally sound life so your soul isn't taxed? The only thing you should have faith in is your "SELF", for you can do plenty under the spectrum of free will...which god supposedly gave you. If you knew god existed it should make you act no differently than not knowing if god exists. It is life, and you should enjoy it without living in fear of what your church says is right...because a majority of the time they have been wrong. If you have all of the answers to your test, then cruise through it. Its not cheating if you have KNOWLEDGE of it. Maybe you don't have a reason to live....well, you do, so keep moving. The test that you speak of is life; this time; this moment; this hologram; your emotions.
QuoteA man of faith? I am to a certain extent. It's better than being a man of numbers/spreadsheets - or in other words a piece of meat. You could say I'm in the middle of the spectrum.
Meat------------------Me---------------Ignorant to any facts
Faith increases>>>>>>>>>
So what your grid shows is you increasingly becoming ignorant to any facts because your faith increases? Maybe you should look more closely into math as opposed to sounding like a meathead and making a spectrum without knowing how to make the proper spectrum you're trying to convey.
And you are not in the middle of the spectrum:
[Christian, Muslim, Jewish] [Buddhism, Hinduism, Agnostic] [Athiest]
Believes in diety + book---Believes in something greater after this--Believes that death is the final chapter
(You) (Me, Spekkio) (Roberto)
THAT is a spectrum.
Westfall, I think you're confused regarding the definition of someone who is agnostic.
Agnostic, when referring to religion, simply means the person believes it cannot be proven at this point whether or not God exists. It does not mean that the person believes in a "greater power," so categorizing it with Buddhism is a fallacy. Moreover, the very fact that you're participating in this silly debate makes you something other than agnostic, since you're trying to convince someone that your viewpoints are correct.
By contrast, an atheist is someone who is convinced that it is a fact that God does not exist, and will actively attempt to convince others of the same.
If you are someone who believes in a Christian version of God without all the other Christian stuff, the word you're looking for is Deist.
Quote from: Nosis on February 23, 2009, 06:50:18 AM
you're all stupid.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 24, 2009, 04:57:02 AM
Westfall, I think you're confused regarding the definition of someone who is agnostic.
Agnostic, when referring to religion, simply means the person believes it cannot be proven at this point whether or not God exists. It does not mean that the person believes in a "greater power," so categorizing it with Buddhism is a fallacy. Moreover, the very fact that you're participating in this silly debate makes you something other than agnostic, since you're trying to convince someone that your viewpoints are correct.
By contrast, an atheist is someone who is convinced that it is a fact that God does not exist, and will actively attempt to convince others of the same.
If you are someone who believes in a Christian version of God without all the other Christian stuff, the word you're looking for is Deist.
Here's the thing Spek, I do not believe in God, but I do believe that there is something that happens after my death. So no, diest would not classify as what I am. Athiests don't believe in anything after death. They also do not believe in a god. Agnostics do not KNOW the answers as to if something does or doesn't exist and do not go around preaching about 100% knowing what the deal is surrounding life. Agnostics also accept that after death there is something that happens. Agnostics can be both tied to athiests and theists. Its unfortunate, because I believe that there is something after I die, but I don't believe its a guy in the clouds. It would be so unfathomable and unknowing that we wouldn't be able to comprehend it in the reality. I don't have a term for it, but agnostic came the closest...because I don't know what the deal is with the universe....I'm a mere spec...the earth is a mere spec.
I'm not trying to convince ANYONE that my viewpoints are correct. I am letting my viewpoints be heard as well as discussing the "god concept".
Being agnostic doesn't classify you under a religion, but if I were to follow one, it would be Buddhism, which isn't a religion but is a way of living. Hence why they were tied together.
Quote from: Westfall on February 24, 2009, 06:14:32 AMBuddhism, which isn't a religion but is a way of living.
dont let the dalai lama find out, dude will be
so pissed.
Quote...but I do believe that there is something that happens after my death.
Still, the fact that you can assert any sort of belief about the afterlife makes you something other than Agnostic.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 23, 2009, 06:18:44 AM
Quote from: Rambo on February 18, 2009, 04:15:44 PM
just to heaten up the discussion: i have this theory that having a critical mind is reciprocally proportional to believing in bullshit like the concept of god...
Even the concept of a God is bullshit? How about the concept of the universe randomly creating itself, from stuff that shouldn't have existed yet, but somehow clumped itself together, then somehow exploded or just started to expand?
You can't know there isn't a God, and you can't know that there is. No one really does. Leave it to an atheist to tell everyone that he does know, somehow.
Proof by no contradictary evidence is not proof.
If I said there was a green alien living in my house, invisible to all forms of detection, you couldn't disprove nor prove he was there. Religion is this concept on a mass scale.
A man of facts and numbers is not a piece of meat, a man of faith is no better. A man of faith doesn't automatically imply religion either, religion (the supression of knowledge) is imo somthing that makes you a piece of meat. Turning down evidence with a few holes for some story that your parents forced upon you, where the only proof is that there is no proof against it, doesn't make you a man, it makes you a follower. (Hehe, I could soo quote bioshock here).
Also, JUST to get rid of this freaking retarded religious thing. Papaskull, go on being religious but you don't realise how retarded you sound to say "it's crazy to say the universe came from nothing".
A: just because you can't grasp the concept because our minds are limited, doesn't mean it can't be so.
B: Why the fuck is it ok for an omnipotent being to magically create itself but not our universe?
This is the worst possible thing for a religious person to state, it shows just how blind they are and don't consider what they're actually believing in.
Quote
How about the concept of the universe randomly creating itself, from stuff that shouldn't have existed yet, but somehow clumped itself together, then somehow exploded or just started to expand?
If that's the version of the big-bang that your batshit crazy god teachers told you, then no wonder you chose religion. Alot of scientists doubt the existance of "nothing", therefore this would imply that the matter created itself from somthing else.
Quote from: Spekkio
By contrast, an atheist is someone who is convinced that it is a fact that God does not exist, and will actively attempt to convince others of the same.
Most of your post is right, but athiests don't definitively attempt to convince other of the same. I believe that if someone starts preaching crap, I have the right to put forward the facts they're ignoring.
Me and my friend were on the bus discussing evolution (we cover a wide variety of topics) and my friend said how much it annoys him when religious people act like they are schooled in the subject of Evolution and Big-Bang Theory, from Papa's posts, we can clearly see he is an example. One common thing for religious people to say is "there are many whole in the evolution theory", but now-a-days, there is not. We know that us, (Homo-Sapien-Sapiens) evolved from a common anscestor to the other 'great apes' and all that's really missing is the link between the tree-bound and non tree-bound (sorry to put it in laymans terms :3). Big Bang has alot of proof behind it (backed up by the Doppler effect and such) and although there are MANY holes in how the process started, it's certainly much more definate than religion.
People like papa haven't been taught the full fact, and it's a shame he continues to argue without realising this.
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 24, 2009, 06:55:53 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 23, 2009, 06:18:44 AM
Quote from: Rambo on February 18, 2009, 04:15:44 PM
just to heaten up the discussion: i have this theory that having a critical mind is reciprocally proportional to believing in bullshit like the concept of god...
Even the concept of a God is bullshit? How about the concept of the universe randomly creating itself, from stuff that shouldn't have existed yet, but somehow clumped itself together, then somehow exploded or just started to expand?
You can't know there isn't a God, and you can't know that there is. No one really does. Leave it to an atheist to tell everyone that he does know, somehow.
Proof by no contradictary evidence is not proof.
If I said there was a green alien living in my house, invisible to all forms of detection, you couldn't disprove nor prove he was there. Religion is this concept on a mass scale.
A man of facts and numbers is not a piece of meat, a man of faith is no better. A man of faith doesn't automatically imply religion either, religion (the supression of knowledge) is imo somthing that makes you a piece of meat. Turning down evidence with a few holes for some story that your parents forced upon you, where the only proof is that there is no proof against it, doesn't make you a man, it makes you a follower. (Hehe, I could soo quote bioshock here).
Also, JUST to get rid of this freaking retarded religious thing. Papaskull, go on being religious but you don't realise how retarded you sound to say "it's crazy to say the universe came from nothing".
A: just because you can't grasp the concept because our minds are limited, doesn't mean it can't be so.
B: Why the fuck is it ok for an omnipotent being to magically create itself but not our universe?
This is the worst possible thing for a religious person to state, it shows just how blind they are and don't consider what they're actually believing in.
Quote
How about the concept of the universe randomly creating itself, from stuff that shouldn't have existed yet, but somehow clumped itself together, then somehow exploded or just started to expand?
If that's the version of the big-bang that your batshit crazy god teachers told you, then no wonder you chose religion. Alot of scientists doubt the existance of "nothing", therefore this would imply that the matter created itself from somthing else.
Quote from: Spekkio
By contrast, an atheist is someone who is convinced that it is a fact that God does not exist, and will actively attempt to convince others of the same.
Most of your post is right, but athiests don't definitively attempt to convince other of the same. I believe that if someone starts preaching crap, I have the right to put forward the facts they're ignoring.
Me and my friend were on the bus discussing evolution (we cover a wide variety of topics) and my friend said how much it annoys him when religious people act like they are schooled in the subject of Evolution and Big-Bang Theory, from Papa's posts, we can clearly see he is an example. One common thing for religious people to say is "there are many whole in the evolution theory", but now-a-days, there is not. We know that us, (Homo-Sapien-Sapiens) evolved from a common anscestor to the other 'great apes' and all that's really missing is the link between the tree-bound and non tree-bound (sorry to put it in laymans terms :3). Big Bang has alot of proof behind it (backed up by the Doppler effect and such) and although there are MANY holes in how the process started, it's certainly much more definate than religion.
People like papa haven't been taught the full fact, and it's a shame he continues to argue without realising this.
Ignorance is a bliss a lot of the time . Saves a lot of your nerves . What will happen if a 100% percent religious person suddenly understand that there is no god ? What will he do next ? If he lived like 20 years or 30 believing in something that doesn't exist ?
We don't need more crazy people in this world for sure.....
You'll have to excuse the typo's in that post. I'd just got back from college and was crazy tired. :/
belief that believing in any god is crazy is crazier then believing in jesus.
You don't believe in Jesus Nosis, or the ideas that swell Jesus' appearance?
I believe Jesus existed and lived his life very well. However, I don't know if I buy his magic, lol. Jesus was probably a great person, whom both Buddha and Mohamed looked to, but the stories are good enough for the scifi channel.
...and only recorded in text over 50 years later, passed on by general hear-say and chinease whisper. This is why the bible is SUCH a reliable source. :)
Quote from: Nosis on February 24, 2009, 08:31:10 PM
belief that believing in any god is crazy is crazier then believing in jesus.
if u dont care about this topic then dont post in it. period. create a new thread or whatever...
what ever gave you that idea? i just find the content in this thread so uninspiring, i can't bring myself to write up a fleshed out reply to it. too many regurgitated concepts and not enough genuine thought.
me? i'm an existentialist pseudo-agnostic anarcho-nihilist humanist subjectivist post-modern gnostic narcissistic pagan with satanic leanings.
hail satan and praise odin.
Yes, b/c there's plenty of genuine thought coming from you Gnosis.
If you can't write a fleshed out reply, then don't respond. Sounds too easy I know.
I have no idea which cartoon it came from (pretty sure it was a cartoon though :S) but I totally agree with it. The bible was written as a story for a man's wife, over time pages got lost, including the page with the authors name. Truth is, what matters most, is belief. Belief so strong can make anything possible, even if others do not see this. Belief is what makes people happy, and belief is what I believe in. If enough people believed in something so strongly, then it must be true right, at least for the believers. I do not believe in god in the slightest, but I believe that there is a force of naturalistic proportions at work, and it is watching over us, or not.
I can't say what category I would put myself in, I have not been brought up to be racist, malicious, envious, religious, atheist etc, so I try not to think of categories. But, if I had to, I would be a "loner". Against the world and it against me. Just the way I like to be.
P.S. Sorry for the over use of the word belief, and sorry for the complete randomness. I am simply put, bored.
Do you not believe that everyone is connected one way or another? I don't know if this idea of "loner" should last....that would make you "better" than everyone else on some level....b/c you didn't follow what they did. This in turn would make you arrogant, which you don't seem to be, but being a loner means you follow your way and no other way always.
I believe in everything being connected in some way. However, I would not say Iam alone...at least I hope I'm not.
Well the funny thing is, I am extremely arrogant, and I do believe I am better than everyone else. It's what makes me, me. I prefer to be alone because then there is less possibilities of me depending on others. I have so called friends, they love me, I'm not sure why, I wouldn't go out of my way to help them though, then I have "close" friends who I adore so much and would die for. My cat, for instance, is my best friend, and I would jump in front of a car for him. This may come across as a bit odd, but if you had the same mind set as me then I'm sure you would understand.
I'm arrogant enough to say I'm glad I don't have your mindset. I'm sure you do just fine and all, but being humble about yourself seems to make you better off. While I understand you don't want to depend on pol, you will hate being alone all of the time. This holds true on your deathbed.
How many non-friends do you have to every cat?
I'm not sure I quite understand that question. You will have to forgive me, for I have not been blessed with intelligence. :-\
LOL I was asking the ratio of "friends" to friends.
Wow, I can't believe that I am stumped by such a simple question. I know it's simple but I just can't answer that. :S
Haha, (fake friends):(real friends)
Ah ha! Now we are getting somewhere, Mostly fake.
This thread is on the verge of going full retard.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 28, 2009, 12:39:33 AM
This thread is on the verge of going full retard.
As everyone should know, never go full retard.
to westfall.
yes, i do believe that death is the final chapter.
but i believe that there is indeed something left of me after i die, and that is my genetic information which in my descendence. and in a way, that is me.
think about it. are you like your father or mother in your behavior or way of thinking? (not only in physical appearance).
Therefore you do not believe that death is the end Roberto.
@ Spekkio: How? Because your input is limited due to your set thoughts of not knowing? Enlighten me with the agnosticism knowledge. Who are you to judge if you have no set thought? You don't know, therefjore judging is hypocritical.
I can't compete with your superior intellect and critical thinking skills.
I am with Roberto in the way of you are always in existance through your offspring. Not in the living, thinking sense, as in; your mark has been put on earth and stays there are long as your family tree continues. Even 1000 years in the future, where you will have very little resemblance to the current generation, the father wouldn't be like he is if not for his father, who wouldn't be like he is if not for his, and that continues all the way back to you and beyond. THAT is the mark I believe you leave.
As for heaven or an afterlife, no. I don't believe such a thing exists, just like roberto says (again), death is the final chapter. No re-do's, no sequals. You're dead. Stop living for heaven and start living for living's sake.
If there is some sort of spirtual energy left, I'd have to say I don't know. I want them to be real (just because it would be a marvel or nature and could potentially lead to millions of new areas of science) and believe i've experience encounter before. But i'm also aware that for starter I couldn't even begin to say what would explain it, and that I do think alot of it is pshycological.
Spekkio, believing/hoping for something after death doesn't make you agnostic (which is defined purely by a belief in a higher being). You may think that some like ghosts is a natural occurance which we haven't discovered/explained yet or the like. We know soo little in the grand scale of things. :)
Quote from: Westfall on February 28, 2009, 07:49:28 AM
Enlighten me with the agnosticism knowledge.
AGNOSTIC MEANS UNDECIDED
hail satan!
Quote from: Nosis on February 28, 2009, 07:50:14 PM
Quote from: Westfall on February 28, 2009, 07:49:28 AM
Enlighten me with the agnosticism knowledge.
AGNOSTIC MEANS UNDECIDED
Glad you can define.
@Spek - Then why bother responding?
I believe in genetic memory also. How is it that animals know what they know? Take a kitten away from it's mother and it still knows how to hunt and so on. How is it that we have deja vu, convinced that we have done something before, yet, we have not? I also believe in reincarnation. I don't need to explain why I do, I just do because I want to. It's gives me hope, which makes me happy to die..... eventually, not yet, I have things to do.... speaking of which, I am hungry.
Hehe, break out the Animus. ;D
Quote from: Spekkio on February 28, 2009, 12:39:33 AM
This thread is on the verge of going full retard.
This thread has gone full retard since the 2nd post in this thread.
Thanks...
HAIL SATAN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36uAoe8e2dY
D:
Would be quite sad/funny to see a christain realise this.
I just found a nice satire on papa :D . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P47OC439x88&feature=channel
Edward Current is a genius. :p
Quote from: Tidenburg on March 01, 2009, 07:29:35 PM
Edward Current is a genius. :p
Some of those satiric arguments really are Papa's arguments.... Well some are not :-) .
Quote from: Westfall on February 28, 2009, 10:22:07 PM@Spek - Then why bother responding?
It's fun to stir the pot, and retarded people are hilarious to watch.
Takes one to know one correct?
@ Snake: What was your input to the topic again?
Quote from: Westfall on March 02, 2009, 05:36:14 AM
Takes one to know one correct?
@ Snake: What was your input to the topic again?
Just some funny videos. I just don't get it.This topic is called 'i am an atheist' so basicly the author hoped only atheists would post here but we get theists and agnostics here + some weird stuff = this topic has gone offtopic long time ago :P
P.s. Some even tried to convert atheists to theism but failed.
Quote from: Nosis on February 28, 2009, 07:50:14 PM
Quote from: Westfall on February 28, 2009, 07:49:28 AM
Enlighten me with the agnosticism knowledge.
AGNOSTIC MEANS UNDECIDED
nominaly it means "unknowing/not knowing" i think.
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 28, 2009, 05:47:09 PM
I am with Roberto in the way of you are always in existance through your offspring. Not in the living, thinking sense, as in; your mark has been put on earth and stays there are long as your family tree continues. Even 1000 years in the future, where you will have very little resemblance to the current generation, the father wouldn't be like he is if not for his father, who wouldn't be like he is if not for his, and that continues all the way back to you and beyond. THAT is the mark I believe you leave.
As for heaven or an afterlife, no. I don't believe such a thing exists, just like roberto says (again), death is the final chapter. No re-do's, no sequals. You're dead. Stop living for heaven and start living for living's sake.
If there is some sort of spirtual energy left, I'd have to say I don't know. I want them to be real (just because it would be a marvel or nature and could potentially lead to millions of new areas of science) and believe i've experience encounter before. But i'm also aware that for starter I couldn't even begin to say what would explain it, and that I do think alot of it is pshycological.
Spekkio, believing/hoping for something after death doesn't make you agnostic (which is defined purely by a belief in a higher being). You may think that some like ghosts is a natural occurance which we haven't discovered/explained yet or the like. We know soo little in the grand scale of things. :)
im glad to hear that we think alike :P
@ westfall: what tidenburg wrote is what i would have written as a response to your "so you actually dont think death is the final chapter" reply
atheist means without god, coming from the word theist which is to believe in a deity.
agnostic means without knowledge, coming from the word gnosis, greek for knowledge, but in a broader sense refers to theistic or spiritual knowledge as a whole.
the point of saying that an agnostic is undecided was to show how stupid westfall asking for "agnostic knowledge" really was.
that's like asking agent for tips on left 4 dead.
Quote from: Nosis on March 03, 2009, 04:11:38 PM
the point of saying that an agnostic is undecided was to show how stupid westfall asking for "agnostic knowledge" really was.
Hence why I asked for it, because agnosticism is not knowing something. So his answer would have to be......"I don't know." Therefore I was looking for Spekkio's knowledge, but only expecting a "duuuuuuuuhh..I don't know," which is such valuable input to me. Sorry if your brain didn't wrap around that one fast enough Nosis.
no i figured as much, it's just a worthless way to make a worthless point. the origin of agnostic might directly translate to "without knowledge" but taking that direct translation to mean agnostics have no opinion on the matter of god is, well, stupid.
you're basically either saying A) as an agnostic one isn't entitled to an opinion or B) genuinely asking for 'agnostic enlightenment'
both of which are basically taking the term one of 2 wrong ways.
if we're going to take the definitions so literal, then atheist basically means someone who refuses to acknowledge god, even if god was to part the clouds and wave at everybody, an atheist would look away and put plugs in his ears.
Which is pretty much what atheists do.....
You still need to actually look up more info on agnosticism. It's not directly not knowing something. It's having no real answer yet acknowledging the possibilities. I also never stated or implied either of your examples. You're trying to prove no point here. You also haven't contributed to this thread at all. If you want to yank your twig and make span, sit in sclamers. Otherwise, enlighten me oh wise nosis, for right now you can't day shit since you have yet to contribute.
the only point i'm making is you're taking the definitions of broad terms too literally. i think you need to look up more about agnosticism, but try reading more then the wiki article.
agnosticism as a broad term means what you just said, but you've been up and down about it. your posts are back and forth. that's pretty much all i'm saying too, is stop throwing around these terms incorrectly.
it's hard to contribute to a thread full of misguided diatribe, without trying to correct some of the confusion.
QuoteWhich is pretty much what atheists do.....
Bullshit. When has God ever come out of the clouds or shown any real proof of existance?
Your last 4 posts have been pure shit-stirring.
Can't everyone just let this thread die? The only way we will agree with one another is when the aliens come down and try to kill us all.
Quote from: Nosis on March 03, 2009, 06:57:47 PM
the only point i'm making is you're taking the definitions of broad terms too literally. i think you need to look up more about agnosticism, but try reading more then the wiki article.
agnosticism as a broad term means what you just said, but you've been up and down about it. your posts are back and forth. that's pretty much all i'm saying too, is stop throwing around these terms incorrectly.
it's hard to contribute to a thread full of misguided diatribe, without trying to correct some of the confusion.
If you can check out wiki, why can't I? I'm also not tossing around the definition at all. I threw around the term incorrectly in the post with the scale, in which Spekkio corrected me. I do have a good grasp on what I'm talking about knowing a little bit more about agnosticism. The rest of the thread has NOTHING that's misguided, aside from biblical lovings.
Maybe you shouldn't attempt to be "correction" artist and actually drop some knowledge here. In lamens terms, quit beating around the fucking bush and post something worth reading, ABOUT the topic. One term has had a small edit, thanks to Spekkio showing me the light on it, you're just continually going off on the tangent of trying to correct the term even more, which is beating a dead horse. Post something about the thread, or shut the fuck up. Simple.....
Quote from: Tidenburg on March 03, 2009, 06:59:24 PM
QuoteWhich is pretty much what atheists do.....
Bullshit. When has God ever come out of the clouds or shown any real proof of existance?
Your last 4 posts have been pure shit-stirring.
My last 4 posts have been just a continuation of the bullshit that this thread is going towards. In fact, they haven't even been focused on the topic, rather a beating-a-dead-horse definition scuffle with Nosis. Pages before when I was bringing up other questions to you guys, no one was saying shit. I'm not going back to repeat myself. Now we're just trying to make this the largest thread here.
Tiden, I didn't say that God ever poked his head out of the clouds. I agreed with Nosis in saying that athiests probably wouldn't believe in God if they saw one to be true. Why? Science. It's unexplainable for a diety to exist. ATHIESTS have a set view of no god no matter what...forever. If this doesn't hold true to your beliefs, then you aren't an athiest. Ya dig?
HENCE why making the bold assumption of no god or god is a ridiculous mind set, because you HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE.
Quote from: Kiory on March 03, 2009, 07:48:35 PM
Can't everyone just let this thread die? The only way we will agree with one another is when the aliens come down and try to kill us all.
Can't wait.
Quote from: Nosis on March 03, 2009, 04:11:38 PM
that's like asking agent for tips on left 4 dead.
well i wouldnt say that thats a bad thing to do cause that guy has no life, so he has pretty much been left for dead by his family.
maybe his family dosent know his cyclops ass is living in the basement !!
x(
somebody start thinking of another controversial topic before this one kicks it!
basically the reason i'm agnostic is because i see a lot of consistency in the world, usually that consistency is irony, but such prevalent patterns tell me there's a deeper tapestry or connection that we can't see. i highly doubt it comes down to an individual, more likely just a force, or an endless fractal that makes up all existence - and it most certainly has a scientific origin and explanation.
but it's also very likely that scientific origin and explanation is so far outside of what we know as possible, it would look like magic or mysticism or archaic power to our really young, naive human eyes.
i guess what i'm saying is the science to the universe, the ironies of life and the commonality of humanity, all of that is god - or gods, or science, or science is god. there is much we don't understand, and at the point in which technology surpasses understanding, technology appears to be magic. there is without a doubt a science and origin to any god that does exist, and it is without a doubt not mystic but just a deeper more complex technology that we can't understand yet.
but when it gets to that point, there really is no difference between 'god' and 'knowledge'. so that's basically what i believe, math and gears and shapes and patterns, all of that is 'god' and it's perfectly mundane and normal, we're just too stupid to really get it all yet.
Was that so hard?
I agree with some of your point, mostly going back to the things our human mind could not fathom. Here's a loaded question, what happens when you die?
let go of the idea that i havn't contributed anything to this thread, spiritual ideals are hearsay, i contributed as much as you by reading and posting. this is a thread about loose idealism and leanings, there's no way one can solidly 'contribute' where another can't. as if i'm not entitled to have an opinion if i don't post my own views anyways.
basically what i'm saying is get your head out of your ass.
also, i don't care what happens when i die. either i'll be aware of it or i won't. if i am, that's all well and good, if i'm not, well it's all the same to me isn't it.
Man is god. End of discussion.
Quote from: Nosis on March 04, 2009, 03:50:35 PM
let go of the idea that i havn't contributed anything to this thread, spiritual ideals are hearsay, i contributed as much as you by reading and posting. this is a thread about loose idealism and leanings, there's no way one can solidly 'contribute' where another can't. as if i'm not entitled to have an opinion if i don't post my own views anyways.
basically what i'm saying is get your head out of your ass.
also, i don't care what happens when i die. either i'll be aware of it or i won't. if i am, that's all well and good, if i'm not, well it's all the same to me isn't it.
I didn't warrant you telling me to get my head out of my ass. But I guess a cunt like you is always on the defensive. That's what happens with insecurity. I was inquiring your opinion, but you just proved to me more as to what a waste of space you are. Cool though...thanks for shedding the light a little more.
you've been touting superiority and claiming i havn't 'contributed' anything since your first response to me. your posts reek of condescension, and everything you say is 'defensive' .
i don't want to turn this thread into a troll fight, so i'll try not to tell you to pull your head out of your ass again,
shit. i tried.
EDIT: second response, not first. your first one was about jesus, lol.
For lame bickering, go to SCL please.
Hooray, Nosis is STILL a bickering fool. Keep adding only goodness. I'm sorry if my superiority doesn't match what normal humans see as insight or analysis. Keep on going though, you're too smart and superior to the rest, like a self-absorbed person would be.
I think you have condescending and confidence mixed up there chief. Sorry if you can't keep up.
Talk about wasting time.
you can't accuse someone of bickering in the same post laden with petty attacks and insults.
Quote from: Westfall on March 04, 2009, 10:29:47 PM
I think you have condescending and confidence mixed up there chief. Sorry if you can't keep up.
lol.
sorry frvge, wasn't my intent.
Westfall, you are in no way superior or in any way, more intelligent than anyone. To be blessed with such titles would mean you having to do something that benefits human kind, not necessarily make things easier. How have you exactly contributed to human kind?
Quote from: Kiory on March 04, 2009, 11:04:27 PM
Westfall, you are in no way superior or in any way, more intelligent than anyone. To be blessed with such titles would mean you having to do something that benefits human kind, not necessarily make things easier. How have you exactly contributed to human kind?
What the fuck is wrong with you people. Where do I say that I am superior to anyone else? NO WHERE. Please read everything before you try to accuse someone of something. In speaking to Nosis it was obviously a sarcastic reference to what insight or analysis would be.
As for your silly question, I'm working on my contributing factors. I need to get my education so I can get an income and give donations and have free time to volunteer. I contribute everyday by dealing with the stupid ignorant well-off folks whose mommies and daddies give them everything, so life is sooo hard. Dealing with people is a chore unto itself.
I try to benefit humankind with my politeness as well as good manners and thoughtful deeds, though being attacked on a forum doesn't warrant any respect. You give me respect and I'll give it right back. Act like a douche, then I'll treat you like what you are.
@Nosis, it was meant in general.
Could the slow-chat between 2-3 people please be done in PM or at SCL?
I'd prefer to have some actual content here, instead of discussing definitions and ones errors in those which were set straight or w/e.
It's that you wanted me not to interfere easily in OT. I'm currently still thinking of lockage.
frvge, this thread won't get back OT until you remove several posts from the last few pages of this thread.
Wow! You are so fucking naive if you think you have a hard life, at least you have the opportunity for an education. All I know, I had to learn by myself. I had a shitty time at school forcing me to leave early, and life outside wasn't particularly favorable neither. Try living with drug addicts and people with mental issues for 2 years, all whilst in a place that I could not call my own home. It's not a sob story, I don't give two shits if this gets inside your thick head. Just trying to get across that you sir, are a bum wit.
Oh, and I wouldn't of posted if I didn't think you said that you were superior.
Quote from: Westfall on March 04, 2009, 10:29:47 PM
Hooray, Nosis is STILL a bickering fool. Keep adding only goodness. I'm sorry if my superiority doesn't match what normal humans see as insight or analysis. Keep on going though, you're too smart and superior to the rest, like a self-absorbed person would be.
I think you have condescending and confidence mixed up there chief. Sorry if you can't keep up.
Talk about wasting time.
Sorry frvge, rant over. :P
Quote from: Kiory on March 04, 2009, 11:41:34 PM
Wow! You are so fucking naive if you think you have a hard life, at least you have the opportunity for an education. All I know, I had to learn by myself. I had a shitty time at school forcing me to leave early, and life outside wasn't particularly favorable neither. Try living with drug addicts and people with mental issues for 2 years, all whilst in a place that I could not call my own home. It's not a sob story, I don't give two shits if this gets inside your thick head. Just trying to get across that you sir, are a bum wit.
Oh, and I wouldn't of posted if I didn't think you said that you were superior.
Quote from: Westfall on March 04, 2009, 10:29:47 PM
Hooray, Nosis is STILL a bickering fool. Keep adding only goodness. I'm sorry if my superiority doesn't match what normal humans see as insight or analysis. Keep on going though, you're too smart and superior to the rest, like a self-absorbed person would be.
I think you have condescending and confidence mixed up there chief. Sorry if you can't keep up.
Talk about wasting time.
Sorry frvge, rant over. :P
To straighten this next attack out, again, the superiority comment was sarcasm. I do take blame for not making that more clear in my post, but realize it was only sarcasm, which the internet has a great way of showing.
ALSO, show me where I said my life was easy or hard? I never said I have a hard life, in fact I am overbearingly grateful for everything that has come across my path given the opportunities and such. However, I can say there has been plenty of hard work that got me to where I am. I was saying how I hope to give back when the time calls. For now, I can only act the part and live my life in a well-mannered and morally sound manner.
Sorry to hear that you've had a difficult life. While many things are easier said than done, I can only tell you to keep on livin and be grateful for anything/everything.
While I will apologize for my crude words, I'm not sorry for trying to get the topic back on topic and then having to counter the attacks that keep coming. No one seems to want to talk about this topic anymore. I would say it's cashed.
in my opinion
nosis started being the asshole first towards westfall.
but karma is a bitch.
if u look back at when westfall came into this thread against me, you can see he did exactly the same thing lol!!
i remember when westfall came into this thread saying "i think atheists and religious pleople are both stupid"
and now if u u look at nosis first entry u see "everybody here is stupid"
which means that u both were assholes in at one point thinking that u both are the smartest shit around. even though u say that you dont think that. (which is exactly what pisses people off)
so just cut the crap both of u lol. only women and fags say no when they mean yes and yes when they mean no.
and @ nosis, since westfall wasnt being an ass anymore since a while back
id say chill the fuck out ass!
Getting back on topic really. Are there many atheists in the Us ? I don't mean the polls and thing like that, i mean you all speak to different people and are they all 'religious' like the polls say ( Heard that there are like 90% Theists in america) ? Is it true , cause in Europe we got a bit of a different picture . Specially in my country , only like 30% are theists and around 40% atheists , rest are 'undecided' (well agnostic probably)
i came into the thread very sarcastic, no doubt. the thing is though, i didn't and don't attack individuals (except agent), just ideas or the content of your post. westfall has the bad habit of filling his counter points with insults which usually just makes me roll my eyes, but definitely puts me on the attack.
the stats are pretty similar all over the world, with older generations holding onto religions and younger generations being majorly atheist or some variant of agnostic or polytheist. religion is dying, but spirituality isn't - as a result, the pagan gods are seeing a huge resurgence lol.
praise odin!
Quote from: Nosis on March 05, 2009, 09:07:02 PM
i came into the thread very sarcastic, no doubt. the thing is though, i didn't and don't attack individuals (except agent), just ideas or the content of your post. westfall has the bad habit of filling his counter points with insults which usually just makes me roll my eyes, but definitely puts me on the attack.
the stats are pretty similar all over the world, with older generations holding onto religions and younger generations being majorly atheist or some variant of agnostic or polytheist. religion is dying, but spirituality isn't - as a result, the pagan gods are seeing a huge resurgence lol.
praise odin!
Hows is pagan gods better than 'jesus' ? They are not that much different........ And don't call me a blasphemer for that please papa...
well for one most of them are a few thousand years older then christ.
I definitely feel that religion is dying quicker in Europe than the U.S. While I would never follow what a poll says, since so many people probably never took a poll, I would say that the Southern U.S. is more religiously influenced than the Northern U.S. It seems like people are still stuck in the past. Don't get me wrong though, if a god or gods works for you and makes you live your life well, then prosper, but if you're going to try and condemn people for separate beliefs....mmmmm....really stretching it.
Just going to ignore Nosis' first statements.
Quote from: Snakebit. on March 05, 2009, 01:04:54 PM
Getting back on topic really. Are there many atheists in the Us ? I don't mean the polls and thing like that, i mean you all speak to different people and are they all 'religious' like the polls say ( Heard that there are like 90% Theists in america) ? Is it true , cause in Europe we got a bit of a different picture . Specially in my country , only like 30% are theists and around 40% atheists , rest are 'undecided' (well agnostic probably)
the thing is that a lot of people is just say they are religious when the truth is they dont even know what their religion is about, that happens because of family traditions etc.
but yea i would say polls are incorrect when the results come out as "america is a christian country"
yes i agree with all who think that religion is dying out.
i myself am an example/proof of how religion is dying out; (most of my family is religious), and all my friends who claim to be religious hardly ever go to church etc. so yep i agree with that.
This, for the most part, is an interesting discussion. For myself, I'm definitely a God-fearing individual though in recent years, say the last 2, I've really begun to (not sure if 'question' is the most accurate word) think more deeply and analytically about my beliefs, the ones I was raised with. I certainly believe there's a God but the exact details of such I'm perhaps not taking quite as literally as I once did.
Maybe the best way to describe me is having an increasing open and tolerant mind towards other ideas and beliefs instead of a strict interpretation of the 'good book'.
Sorry if that's confusing.
Regarding religion dying out: I certainly think America is still a majority Christian country, albeit maybe only barely. Whereas in past decades it was maybe as high as 60-80% Christian or simply religious in general, I definitely agree with the sentiment that things and people are becoming increasingly non-religious.
Myself, I see that as a reaction of TPTB (the powers that be) influencing an increasingly out of control world. The more things deteriorate, the more control governments will have to exert in order to maintain that 'image', if you will, of control. But it's like holding tighter and tighter onto sand. The harder you grab for control, the more you lose.
I'm of the belief that eventually organized religion in general will be officially turned on by world goverments and banned because it incites too much chaos and violence, whether the Jews and Muslims will admit it or not.
i was watching a film called 'Munich' the other day; it was the first time i ever saw the film. i fell asleep in a few parts, but i do know that the film is about the constant war between muslims and jews. i think it was a good film, but it makes jews look like victims.
i think that jews always want to be the victims and that they should accept the fact that they kill muslims too lol.
and yes i agree with lochang, religions stimulate war lol.
As far as the Jew/Arab thing goes, you should ask yourself:
If the Arabs had a small fraction of land and were surrounded by 400 million Jews, do you think the Jews would be blowing themselves up in buses and pizza kitchens?
I realize that's an extremely oversimplified breakdown of a hundreds of years-old battle, but honestly, do you see that as being realistic?
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=AXKCXJSN
Religulous. Basically pointing out holes in religion and how it's used to manipulate people today. Great doc/film. (The awkward silences kill me) ;D
Dying to see that movie...can't wait...
LoChang, are you under the belief of no such thing as free will or do you believe free will exists but that we always end up where we're supposed to be (aka fate)? Just curious, b/c you're saying the powers that be have weened the human mind away from religion altogether. Don't you think it is deserved due to the controlling nature of some religions?
Quote from: LoChang on March 09, 2009, 05:31:46 AMI realize that's an extremely oversimplified breakdown of a hundreds of years-old battle, but honestly, do you see that as being realistic?
Considering that suicide is considered one of the worst sins a Jew can commit...nope.
religion causes way more problems than it solves..
@ Westfall: I am of the belief that one chooses to believe in what they wish. Whether that means a belief in a higher power, God, or in science or mathematics, that's up to each individual. However, I'm also of the belief that, as I said earlier, the global society as a whole is getting increasingly more and more out of control and chaotic, and religion is seen as the cause, or at the very least, a primary contributor. Therefore, I think that a lot of powerful people, politicians, CEO's of news media, etc, are quietly trying to wean people into a more secular state by subtle means and influences. Not some grand organized conspiracy, but just feeling simply if religion weren't a part of society, society would be a good deal more stable. I'm inclined to agree with them.
And really, who's being controlling? Religions, most of them, simply have a different set of morals and values from each other, and a different set from someone who was NOT religious. But are THEY holding YOU to account of them? Or are you living your life controlling yourself (or confining) to said belief system? In my view, religions simply lay out a set of guidelines they think is a good thing to follow. If you feel it's controlling, either leave that organization or give up religion in general. People who claim to be religious usually don't view their own views as confining or controlling, they do it to have a sense of structure in their lives. Again though, if you DO think it's controlling you, then it probably isn't for you.
@ Spekkio: As I've known very few Jewish people, and none of them well, I wasn't aware that was specifically the case, though I've always assumed it to be. It's also my understanding that the same holds true with Muslims, therefore the conundrum of suicide bombings.
Quote from: LoChang on March 10, 2009, 06:57:11 PM
@ Westfall: I am of the belief that one chooses to believe in what they wish. Whether that means a belief in a higher power, God, or in science or mathematics, that's up to each individual. However, I'm also of the belief that, as I said earlier, the global society as a whole is getting increasingly more and more out of control and chaotic, and religion is seen as the cause, or at the very least, a primary contributor. Therefore, I think that a lot of powerful people, politicians, CEO's of news media, etc, are quietly trying to wean people into a more secular state by subtle means and influences. Not some grand organized conspiracy, but just feeling simply if religion weren't a part of society, society would be a good deal more stable. I'm inclined to agree with them.
Well put, but do you believe in free will or fate?
QuoteAnd really, who's being controlling? Religions, most of them, simply have a different set of morals and values from each other, and a different set from someone who was NOT religious. But are THEY holding YOU to account of them? Or are you living your life controlling yourself (or confining) to said belief system? In my view, religions simply lay out a set of guidelines they think is a good thing to follow. If you feel it's controlling, either leave that organization or give up religion in general. People who claim to be religious usually don't view their own views as confining or controlling, they do it to have a sense of structure in their lives. Again though, if you DO think it's controlling you, then it probably isn't for you
Well, the reason religions tend to be controlling is because you HAVE to follow these rules or else you are disobeying the religion. This goes for most religions: Catholic, Jewish, Muslim...to name a few. Granted, there are relaxed versions of each. Also, many ppl follow there texts too literally, which is what the church/temple conveys. This seems to pollute the minds of humans for generations on generations. I agree that society is becoming chaotic, but I think that's do to the realization that religion is very controlling. While I don't disagree with a book of morals, I do not agree with manipulation of minds...this is what religion is excellent at.
Guess I was a bit too long winded, I believe in free will. To me, 'fate' implies that everything is mapped out already and you really don't have a choice where you end up. In a way, I feel like that's a cop-out arguement, almost like proving something doesn't exist, like God. No matter what you do, someone can say it was 'fate', just like someone can argue God doesn't exists to someone who believes hard evidence isn't what you need to believe but 'faith' is. You can't rely on that fallacious reasoning.
I agree with your second point too, I was only trying to convey that if someone feels that what they themselves believe is too controlling or restrictive for how they want to live their life, then go believe in something that will allow you to do just that. Have a backbone, stand up for what you believe in and want, don't let others dictate to you what you don't feel is right.
Myself, I believe in the religious things I was taught, though as stated earlier, I've recently thought more deeply and analytically about them and have perhaps started off on a different path. I'm not sure what I'll end up doing regarding my own belief system. It's too early to tell.
I actually believe heavily in free will, yet I also believe that I end up in certain places for a reason, as though it was the path I was supposed to be on. Sometimes I even feel that when I have deja vu, I'm on the correct path that I should be. Just a mind game though. Still, I do believe in fate to an extent, mostly because of the synchronicity that I've noticed with what I'm doing.
I was actually raised a Catholic, but once I headed out of high school I went towards Methodism. Now, completely rejecting religion. I do however believe in something after my death. I couldn't tell you what it was though, since my brain couldn't comprehend it. I wish I could use more than 10% of my brain.
Try OOBE. You'll wtf the first time :P
There are several methods I'm sure.
Yup. And different 'planes' etc. Eg. I recently ended up inside a poster i have in my room lol
Quote from: Inferno on March 11, 2009, 03:34:07 PM
Yup. And different 'planes' etc. Eg. I recently ended up inside a poster i have in my room lol
With hot naked females? Sounds good to me.
Quote from: Inferno on March 11, 2009, 03:34:07 PM
Yup. And different 'planes' etc. Eg. I recently ended up inside a poster i have in my room lol
Fungi ftw
Does anyone in here believe in ghosts ??? Have anyone in here seen any ? If yes , then can you tell how they looked ?
I definitely believe in ghosts though I have never personally witnessed one. I'm dying to actually catch a glimpse to I can begin to analyze what the hell it was and why it does exist. I don't think you can analyze until you've actually seen one. They definitely are around and are quite the conundrum.
I also believe in ETs though I have never seen one.
Just waiting...
Quote from: frvge on March 11, 2009, 04:09:30 PM
Quote from: Inferno on March 11, 2009, 03:34:07 PM
Yup. And different 'planes' etc. Eg. I recently ended up inside a poster i have in my room lol
With hot naked females? Sounds good to me.
It's a picture of a jungle, lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hornet_(CV-12)
I don't know why the link doesn't appear properly here, but in order to view the page correctly you need to add the missing bracket to the URL.
"Her impressive record did not come without cost. An aircraft carrier, in times of war or peace, is a dangerous place. Sailors have walked into aircraft's spinning props, been sucked into their air intakes, and blown off deck by their exhaust. Dropped ordnance has exploded, burning and maiming sailors. Snapping flight arrest cables are known to have decapitated at least three men on the USS Hornet. All told, in her 27 years of active service, more than 300 people lost their lives aboard ship. The majority claimed during combat, others from these horrendous shipboard accidents, still others from suicide. The USS Hornet has the dubious honor for having the highest suicide rate in the Navy."
So you think it is 'strange' that one of the ships has the baddest record ? Come on , there is always gonna be a ship with the worst record and the best record so it is just a normality.
People like strange sounding stuff like that because it's a break from the monotony. On monday when I was walking home from school we saw 3 mini coopers of all different colours and then 2 sets of 2 of the same car directly after those (this was all in a line). We didn't start going to wiki and posting conspiracy theories about it.
A side of our Bureau of Central Statistics was a perfect smiley-face. I think it's some practical joke. Building is like 15 stories high. They used the anti-sun things to block the windows. Non-covered ones where the eyes/mouth/shape. Pretty funny.
Okay seriously this thread is dead , close it.
Or you could just let it die.....
I just read through all 29 pages of this thread (yeah I was bored) and it was pretty damn entertaining and for the most part, civilized. In an attempt to get it going again, here are my opinions on a few of the topics brought up. Reply if you want, if not... I guess let the thread die then.
Is there a God?
Fuck if I know. Science can't prove there isn't one, just like men of faith can't prove there is one. Guess that one is going to stay at a stand still for a while.
On Homosexuality
I don't think homosexuality is an illness or a choice. In my mind people can be born with a variety of sexual preferences, just like people can be born with a variety of different heights, skin tone, eye color, hair length etc. Also, how can people say homosexuality is a choice? I didn't choose to be straight, so how could someone choose to be gay?
On The Universe and ETs
Whoever said that the big bang theory can be disproved because there are planets and other elements out there that are supposedly older then the universe needs to show some data. The universe is estimated to be about 14 Billion years old, I've never seen any article stating there is anything IN the universe that is older. Even if that was true, that doesn't disprove the Big Bang Theory, it just disproves our estimated age of the Universe.
As for ETs, I doubt any of the so called UFO sightings are real. However I do believe there is ET life out there somewhere. There are literally billions of stars in our galaxy alone... and there are Billions of galaxies in the visible universe. How can there Not be another world out there with life on it? It happened once, which means it could happen again.
Do Ghosts exist?
No, only overactive imaginations and fear.
That's all I really care about typing right now.
I agree with all your points except homosexuality one.
Homosexuality I believe is sometimes nothing but a bad decision made in a bad situation for some people (not all). For example; your at a party, you are super drunk and some sketchy bisexual guy starts joking around with you then starts feeling you up and you fucking push him over and call him a fag, but then suppose he has some drug on him and he puts it in your drink and ends up screwing you from behind and you never even knew until you hear the rumors.
It ruins your life and sometimes causes you to question your sexual preferences, and the victim might end up doing it again.
Almost like when a person tries out a drug for the first time, it is weird the first time, but once you do it you start feeling indifferent towards that experience you once thought of as a bad one before doing it.
Who is to say (straight guys) that putting your penis in a girlââ,¬â,,¢s rectum dosent feel the same as in maleââ,¬â,,¢s ass. It is just the mental picture of the same sex physiology and the act against societyââ,¬â,,¢s norm that repulses other men from men and women from other women when straight. But when some make the decision (read "drunken individual" example above) to break norm to find out that they can achieve sexual pleasures with same sex too, they go gay.
Itââ,¬â,,¢s like when a "good" kid steals something from some gas station store because his friends did it too. Even though he had to overcome his consciousness' ethical rational, he found out it was really easy to do it without getting caught. So now, he thinks of it as something he can do any day if he needs some snack for free.
Gayness as choice (not all cases) can also be related to losing virginity (as straight guy) with a girl. First it is kind of weird because you think of pussy as something awesome when you havenââ,¬â,,¢t had it. then once you have it you realize that it feels good but that itââ,¬â,,¢s not as big of a deal as you pictured it was; in addition, this experience helps you acknowledge the ease of getting laid sometimes because you realize that many girls are down to fuck with no real commitment even if you ask them for sex straight up.
Therefore the only real thing preventing you from losing your virginity was a fear not really anything to do with girls being hard to get (some are but u should go for easier ones imo lol.. (Unless ur super pro pimp))
So yeah idk if I sidetracked too much or if i was able to illustrate my point, but to sum it up I say this
*Gayness does exist by choice (psychological issues like undergoing rape or past experiences one actually enjoyed), as well as by genetical disorder (idk how that would work, but usually when you see kids that dress like girls at young age that is the case). I wouldnââ,¬â,,¢t go as far as to say homosexuality is normal and completely sane at its source. Just because gay people can live healthy happy lives doesnââ,¬â,,¢t make homosexuality a healthy psyche. (I am not an activist against gay rights Iââ,¬â,,¢m just saying gayness is not normal at its source (either mentally or genetically)).
Donââ,¬â,,¢t say "whereââ,¬â,,¢s the research that proves your point?" because there is none. Doing research on that kind of stuff gains no money to scientists and provokes gay groups to go on a grief riot. Scientists have nothing but loses if they spend time researching that.
Gay, Bi, Straight, what the hell does it matter? Everyone is unique in his own person, you shouldn't need a reason whether or not you feel attracted to a person.
Genesis 1:1 ââ,¬Å"In the beginning Godââ,¬Â¦Ã¢â,¬Â
Atheist: ââ,¬Å"Evolution is true.ââ,¬Â
God Believer: ââ,¬Å"Prove it.ââ,¬Â
Atheist: ââ,¬Å"I canââ,¬â,,¢t. Prove to me that there is a God.ââ,¬Â
God Believer: ââ,¬Å"I canââ,¬â,,¢t.ââ,¬Â
Genesis 1:1 ââ,¬Å"In the beginning God createdââ,¬Â¦Ã¢â,¬Â
God Believer: ââ,¬Å"But I believe there is a God.ââ,¬Â
Atheist: ââ,¬Å"I believe there is no God.ââ,¬Â
God Believer: ââ,¬Å"Ok, great. We have common ground. We both believe, and we are both here, right? Give me a nudge to make sure. (Reality Check) I believe that we were created by a good and great God; you believe that we happened.
Atheist: ââ,¬Å"But if there is a God, he cannot be good and great at the same time. If he is good, he is not great (or powerful) enough to do anything to change the world we are living in. If he is great, then he is not good because we have a lot of problems here on earth that he is ignoring.ââ,¬Â
When you get right down to it, this is the fundamental difference between Atheists and God believers. One of the major problems is that people try to use science to prove and disprove what it was not invented to do. Ideas of the origin of the world and its governance are completely beyond the boundaries. These can only be explained through religious views and faith. Scienceââ,¬â,,¢s main focus is the properties, process, histories, and some purposes of the universe. It is used to further our knowledge. So what do I believe? I believe what the Bible says. Some would call me a ââ,¬Å"Christian,ââ,¬Â but the term does not mean anything what it used to mean, and there are many people who claim to be Christians but they really are not. Therefore, I just like to call myself a Bible Believer. Why? If you look at the entire book, you can see that all prophesies spoken by the prophets through God have been fulfilled from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Jesus Christ came to die for our sins in order for us to become healed. It is for us to decide whether to accept or reject. He wants us to make the choice to love him back rather than just get rid of all sin because it shows our true belief and trust in him. God has revealed himself to us, and he is a personal God (even still today). And also, you can see how the world is moving exactly toward the direction of the end times as seen in Revelation. We are not there yet, but it is coming.
It is quite interesting to even look at the history of the United States. We were founded on ââ,¬Å"Christianââ,¬Â principles with God (The God proclaimed throughout the Bible) as the supreme ruler of the country. And how did we gain prosperity and eventually become the most powerful nation in the world? -by obeying God and trusting in him to provide for our needs. He blessed America. Now, we are falling away from these principles quite obviously, and I believe this is the reason we are declining as a nation.
QuoteWe were founded on ââ,¬Å"Christianââ,¬Â principles with God (The God proclaimed throughout the Bible) as the supreme ruler of the country.
Assholes like you really piss me off. The US was founded on the basis of freedom, it just so happened that a lot of those people were Christian.
QuoteAnd how did we gain prosperity and eventually become the most powerful nation in the world? -by obeying God and trusting in him to provide for our needs.
False, we worked and set certain systems and structures in place to help guarantee that position. If I wanted God to provide for my needs I would sit at home on my butt all day and let him generate money for me. No, that doesn't work. I work and get stuff done for my own good. God simply gives hope that when someone dies they aren't gone forever.
QuoteHe blessed America. Now, we are falling away from these principles quite obviously, and I believe this is the reason we are declining as a nation.
What are we doing that would be falling away from those principles? I am an atheist but your statements are not even logical. Obama is Christian and the day we get an atheist president I'm sure we will all die huh?
I would take the time to show you a youtube video of comparisons to countries with a higher percentage of Theists to countries with more Atheists, but I am far to lazy. Summary: IQ is generally linked to Theism in a reverse way (Atheist = Higher IQ)
Obama claims to be a Christian. He also went to a church whose pastor(the wrong Rev. Jeremiah Wright) asked God to damn America.
I think it's just a show for most polititians. They claim to be Christians, but they don't walk the walk very much.
Anyways, happy Easter to all the athiests out there! :-)
Zed, I had read about objects in the universe being older than the big bang. Turns out it falls in the margin if error so it's not really thought about anymore. At the same time, we'll never really know. You know, with the universe being big and all (multiple solar systems, galaxies, universes, dimensions(?), etc.)
QuoteHow can the oldest stars in the Universe be older than the Universe?
Of course the Universe has to be older than the oldest stars in it. So this question basically asks: which estimate is wrong -
The age of the Universe
The age of the oldest stars
Both
The age of the Universe is determined from its expansion rate: the Hubble constant, which is the ratio of the radial velocity of a distant galaxy to its distance. The radial velocity is easy to measure, but the distances are not. Thus there is currently a 11% uncertainty in the value of the Hubble constant measured directly by the Hubble Space Telescope. John Huchra gives a good discussion of the historical uncertainties in the Hubble constant since even before Hubble's work. There is now a more precise but more indirect determination from WMAP observations of the CMB anisotropy, and a more accurate direct measurement from Riess et al..
The estimated age of the Universe has been increased by the observations of an accelerated expansion of the Universe. The current best value is 13.7 +/- 0.2 billion years from WMAP.
Determining the age of the oldest stars requires a knowledge of their luminosity, which depends on their distance. This leads to a 15% uncertainty in the ages of the oldest stars due to the difficulty in determining distances.
Thus the discrepancy between the age of the oldest things in the Universe and the age inferred from the expansion rate was always within the margin of error. In fact, in 1997 improved distances from the HIPPARCOS satellite suggested that the oldest stars were younger, and the WMAP results in 2003 suggest that the Universe is older, so the discrepancy has disappeared.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHiuaGJ46zo
There is no christianity, no islam, no budhism. There is only faith in 1 God with different faces and his son with questionable looks.
Once every faith sees that and merge together, the world will be a better place.
If I could, a large portion of America would be lined up and shot. Your country is so backward it hurts. I feel for the people with genuine 21st century mindsets who are trapped over there.
Also, whoever the idiot who thinks America was founded under God was, America was strictly secular, mixing religion and politics was highly frowned upon. Look at the biased shithole that is your media and the things people take into account (religion, race, sexuality) when voting. It's sick.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 28, 2010, 07:01:57 AM
QuoteWe were founded on ââ,¬Å"Christianââ,¬Â principles with God (The God proclaimed throughout the Bible) as the supreme ruler of the country.
Assholes like you really piss me off. The US was founded on the basis of freedom, it just so happened that a lot of those people were Christian.
QuoteAnd how did we gain prosperity and eventually become the most powerful nation in the world? -by obeying God and trusting in him to provide for our needs.
False, we worked and set certain systems and structures in place to help guarantee that position. If I wanted God to provide for my needs I would sit at home on my butt all day and let him generate money for me. No, that doesn't work. I work and get stuff done for my own good. God simply gives hope that when someone dies they aren't gone forever.
QuoteHe blessed America. Now, we are falling away from these principles quite obviously, and I believe this is the reason we are declining as a nation.
What are we doing that would be falling away from those principles? I am an atheist but your statements are not even logical. Obama is Christian and the day we get an atheist president I'm sure we will all die huh?
I would take the time to show you a youtube video of comparisons to countries with a higher percentage of Theists to countries with more Atheists, but I am far to lazy. Summary: IQ is generally linked to Theism in a reverse way (Atheist = Higher IQ)
Ion, if you want to continue this conversation, I would be glad to. However, for anything to get accomplished we need to respect each other. Email me if you want to keep going with this...otherwise, we would just be wasting our time yelling at each other with no real good reason.
No offence, but if you believe something when no evidence, that theory does not deserve respect. The theory of evolution has proof but christians always use the "it's a theory" card. What they completely miss is that theory means something entirely different than a mathematical theory (normally known in science as a hypothesis), a theory in science has to have actual established evidence.
When you're taught science you don't shout "oh but it's only the THEORY of relativity!", it's accepted as though fact until debunked.
Also, as well as having gay marriage over here. The UK recently introduced a new law! Homophobic abuse / hatred is now just as illegal (prison time and all) as racial hate. :)
I lol'd that you think America became powerful because of God, like religion enables technology. Remember that little thing called the Dark Ages? Yeah.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2Fnbra08.jpg&hash=fce923148238e95b2c58adc4075787c7f05fe7f2)
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Just some nice informationals for you. ;)
The one who posts the most funny quote/anecdote/picture in a religious debate WINS.
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oLAWDS, I wanna win.
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Do I win at the internet yet?
Your spam made my picture gone unnoticed, therefore I shall put it again!
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Quote from: Tidenburg on March 28, 2010, 09:18:37 PM
oLAWDS, I wanna win.
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NOTHIDINGANYPICTURESHERE
Your actions remind me of my picture.
You remind me of ivory tower complex. :)
Everybody has their own beliefs. If you don't agree, who gives a shit?
Sure thing tigaer, in a perfect world. But in crazy places like the middle-east and America, things with actual evidence behind them are not being taught in schools, people aren't given equal rights because of what's "against god" and people can't run for positions of power because some morons use a book from two millennia ago to build their social values.
If people's beliefs are running a so-called "free country" or impede other's rights. Then I give a shit.
Secularism forever. I hate to sound patriotic (I'm not, my country's crap in so many ways) but in the UK, religion is not even taken into account while voting; I can't say I even know what faith any of the people running are. Gay marriage (civil partnership) is legal here and has exactly the same rights as a straight partnering and we teach evolution as fact until another theory is proposed. We're not completely secular, we all have a built in bias so that must go for those who make the laws, but we're hell of a way more there than america.
We're also over-run with muslims. >_>
Just to point something out in one of your pics: Catholics are the ones that believe in original sin. Not all Christianity believes in it.
QuoteJust to point something out in one of your pics: Catholics are the ones that believe in original sin. Not all Christianity believes in it.
See? You already are proving the point that religion is bullshit. You don't believe the same as other people, yet you believe in the same book and same things. Doesn't make sense.
Evolution is taught in America. In my school it is taught and taught well, with the teachers not sounding doubtful or saying "theory" or anything. It is called the theory of evolution, but theory is defined clearly in our books. If I didn't know politics is all bullshit and requires politically advantageous campaigns to win any election, I would love to run for office. Laws that need to be passed in every state:
1) Gay Marriage is alright
2) Universal Healthcare in its raw, correct form
3) When running for office, certain things should not be released to the public, like religion. The public should vote purely based on political views. When trying out for our state orchestra, the contestants are placed in a room with the judges, behind a curtain. That leaves a fair tryout, where only the sound matters. I can only imagine how much better a system of government would run like that.
Atheism is the most underrepresented religion in the US politically if I remember my stats correctly. They also have, on average, a higher IQ. Religion has no basis in government. I hate life.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 01:21:25 AM
1) Gay Marriage is alright
The problem with gay marriage isn't so much that gay marry, it's also because "marriage" is known for quite long as a lifelong commitment between a woman and a male. I personally don't like the term "gay marriage", although if they would name it differently then that is fine.
3) When running for office, certain things should not be released to the public, like religion. The public should vote purely based on political views. When trying out for our state orchestra, the contestants are placed in a room with the judges, behind a curtain. That leaves a fair tryout, where only the sound matters. I can only imagine how much better a system of government would run like that.
If a candidate doesn't tell me wether or not he is believing in any of the many religions how would I know for sure to vote on him? Even if he has a perfectly fine campaign he might still be a christian for example thus chances are big that when he is selected he will come up with religious based ideas. Say I don't want religious based ideals I would like to know in advance if he has any form of religion.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 28, 2010, 04:56:48 AM
It is quite interesting to even look at the history of the United States. We were founded on ââ,¬Å"Christianââ,¬Â principles with God (The God proclaimed throughout the Bible) as the supreme ruler of the country. And how did we gain prosperity and eventually become the most powerful nation in the world? -by obeying God and trusting in him to provide for our needs. He blessed America. Now, we are falling away from these principles quite obviously, and I believe this is the reason we are declining as a nation.
I LOL'ed
Also, good pictures they are funny as well!
i saved those for future lol'ing xD
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on March 29, 2010, 02:26:55 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 01:21:25 AM
1) Gay Marriage is alright
The problem with gay marriage isn't so much that gay marry, it's also because "marriage" is known for quite long as a lifelong commitment between a woman and a male. I personally don't like the term "gay marriage", although if they would name it differently then that is fine.
3) When running for office, certain things should not be released to the public, like religion. The public should vote purely based on political views. When trying out for our state orchestra, the contestants are placed in a room with the judges, behind a curtain. That leaves a fair tryout, where only the sound matters. I can only imagine how much better a system of government would run like that.
If a candidate doesn't tell me wether or not he is believing in any of the many religions how would I know for sure to vote on him? Even if he has a perfectly fine campaign he might still be a christian for example thus chances are big that when he is selected he will come up with religious based ideas. Say I don't want religious based ideals I would like to know in advance if he has any form of religion.
I semi-agree with you here. I don't agree with "gay marriage" as such. Christianity may be stupid, but you still gotta let them have their club. Let them be civil-partners, let them CALL it gay marriage, have a ceremony (could even be at a church) and let them have the same rights as a married couple - it's essentially the same thing. No need to storm in on the loonies and force them to change their rules, kinda defeats the purpose. Why would any gay want to be married before God anyway? The bible is quite clear about being anti-gay... then I suppose why would black people marry before him either... or women... or any non-white male.
Why do atheists complain about Christians trying to force religion when they do the same thing?
Atheist: "So you're a Christian?"
Christian: "Yes."
Atheist: "Why? God doesn't exist, you'd be so much happier without religion man."
Christian: "God does exist, and you'd be so much happier with him."
Blah blah blah.
This happens all the time, I have tons of atheist and christian friends that do it. It's contradicting and annoying that atheists complain about forcing religion when they do the exact same thing to religious people.
Just a random thought. That is all.
i watched the zeigheist video you posted
i was intrigued, how it said all the astrology stuff about the christian bible and believed it 90% cause it makes sense, but idk i got a feeling these zeigheist dudes might be a bunch of assholes making shit up
the second part of the video regarding 911 being a conspiracy is kinda harder for me to get convinced on, im very unsure about that...
good video very interesting. so now the question this video raises is:
Did jesus christ exist according to these zeigheist dudes?
Im guessing that a jesus christ impostor did exist indeed and that he was nothing but a poor bum/hippie. and that romans killed him for that reason.
also check this video out its pretty funny, I must admit this rocker guy is kinda good at filtering his mouth at times i think he was just putting on a show at times.
This is a good example of the kind of people who claim they are a god lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OzPfYcpe8c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OzPfYcpe8c)
theres 2 parts watch em both for the lolz both are funny
Well the "jezus" figure could have been true very likely in one way or another. But it's all due to interpretation that people make stuff out that make no sense.
People back then were stupid, they had no education. The only thing they knew is what their parents and surrounding told them when they grew up.
So basicly if a whole group was gasping at something they didn't understand, 1 person yelling it's done by the hands of god it would make perfectly sense to them. As they lacked the ability to think otherwise. (because for example someone with good intentions was killed and it started to rain, they would think the ky was weeping because of this infortune but maybe it was just about to rain?)
Quote from: tigaer on March 29, 2010, 05:40:46 AM
Why do atheists complain about Christians trying to force religion when they do the same thing?
Atheist: "So you're a Christian?"
Christian: "Yes."
Atheist: "Why? God doesn't exist, you'd be so much happier without religion man."
Christian: "God does exist, and you'd be so much happier with him."
Blah blah blah.
This happens all the time, I have tons of atheist and christian friends that do it. It's contradicting and annoying that atheists complain about forcing religion when they do the exact same thing to religious people.
Just a random thought. That is all.
Firstly, I'm not an athiest because it makes me happy, surely deluding myself would do that better. I'm an athiest because even a first grader can point out fundamental flaws in religion. It has no evidence and is just passed down. If you were raised here, where it's not taught as fact - or were not brought up by your parents that way - you'd be athiest too.
Secondly, I hope you're not serious. When I want to discuss religion, I will. I'm not going to force it down your throat, but I feel that anything should allowed to be discussed, if you're going to get offended about freedom of speech then that's your problem, not mine. People who force each other's views down other's throats are annoying. People who cry when valid opinions are exchanged about religion can QQ.
If you'd actually read what I said, I was posting POLITICAL forcing. As in, law. Not something I can just walk away from or not partake in (you know, like a conversation). Laws in America are horrifically biased and set up to enable Christianity, tax benefits, etc. Law should not back any religion. It's in your bloody constitution, why am I, a foreigner, reminding you of this?
Calm down. That wasn't directed at you. It was a generalized statement.
Christian = someone who believes in god.
Athiest = someone who doesn't believe in god.
Making others believe in a god is bad.
Making others believe to not believe in a god because you don't like christians to tell you to believe in a god is being a hypocrit.
And tidenburg you keep saying how you find it annoying to put a religion down someone's throat but the only thing you seem to do in your posts is tactical nuke your views down religious' throats.
Start making sense.
Well my image posts were for the trulz but no-one raged so I stopped. I've not told anyone to not believe in God... my only problem is that it's prominent in their laws.
Tigaer, I said nothing offensive or harsh in that post, no need to calm down. As I said IN the post, taking something badly because it's about religion and someone actually bashing it are two entirely different things. Also, you were stereotyping - so it is aimed at me.
White_dwarf, discussions don't need a narrator. My posts all contain valid points with, yeah, maybe just some sting in the tone. Regardless, just because they can't apparently be answered to, doesn't make the question/point bad.
Maybe just respond to some points in my posts instead of just interjecting with random whines? It's not like I'm arguing in a foul way. How about a discourse instead of just picking apart stuff in my post style that has nothing to do with its actual content?
Quote from: Tidenburg on March 29, 2010, 07:49:05 PM
White_dwarf, discussions don't need a narrator. My posts all contain valid points with, yeah, maybe just some sting in the tone. Regardless, just because they can't apparently be answered to, doesn't make the question/point bad.
Maybe just respond to some points in my posts instead of just interjecting with random whines? It's not like I'm arguing in a foul way. How about a discourse instead of just picking apart stuff in my post style that has nothing to do with its actual content?
Funny you mention ,as this was a respond to the general picture I get when reading your posts. In most post you have excellent points just the way they are worded makes you look arrogant and somewhat drawing the attention away from your initial meaning.
To this point we can all pretty much agree you are an athiest and do not like religion. You made your point. Though you still keep bringing up you're an athiest that leads to a more aggresive way of replying.
Perhaps if you left your athiesm aside and speak of what you think based on your thoughts your posts might actually make sense, without drawing the attention away from your initial meaning.
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
It's not about winning or losing a discussion. If that is your entire aim, then you are missing the point of it all. The point is to have an open talk with another person and have mutual interest in each other's views so that you can accomplish something. This is done with respect- not a battle that you are fighting to win. Present your views, listen to the other, and then calmly talk about your similarities and differences. If you influence the other person, so be it. And the only way you can impact another person is by taking this approach. I'm praying for you brother...
Curdy, don't ever say you're praying for someone if they're not part of your religion. It makes you sound like a condescending prick. As much as I like discussion, there is a battle going on.
Religion has been utilised or behind almost all major conflicts. Whether it was full-fledged religious crusades, slaughtering countless people, or just a president saying that they have God's backing. It's a people-controller and it's dangerous. Otherwise rational people fail to see that if they were born elsewhere they'd believe something entirely different just as adamantly as they do their own. People are still stoned to death for being gay or expressing themselves or choosing not to believe in some places. People kill thousands in the name of a God they have no reason to believe in.
And don't you dare say Christianity isn't one of those religions. Its history is appalling.
Quote from: Tidenburg on March 29, 2010, 11:33:59 PM
Curdy, don't ever say you're praying for someone if they're not part of your religion. It makes you sound like a condescending prick. As much as I like discussion, there is a battle going on.
Religion has been utilised or behind almost all major conflicts. Whether it was full-fledged religious crusades, slaughtering countless people, or just a president saying that they have God's backing. It's a people-controller and it's dangerous. Otherwise rational people fail to see that if they were born elsewhere they'd believe something entirely different just as adamantly as they do their own. People are still stoned to death for being gay or expressing themselves or choosing not to believe in some places. People kill thousands in the name of a God they have no reason to believe in.
And don't you dare say Christianity isn't one of those religions. Its history is appalling.
Athiest kill people too, expell gay from their community, also fight pointless wars. Don't forget that.
Just by having everyone becoming an athiest won't solve it just like that.
It's a human shortcoming, we do "evil" things because deep inside us we are all selfish beings. Look at animals, they expell the weak or even kill them. Do the others mourn their losses? Perhaps. Do they care in the end? Hell no.
There is no right or wrong it's what YOU think is right or wrong. Religion is just a tool to make it more transparant for you to know the difference, so individuals do not have to think about it for themselfs. They get it served on a shiny plate with a pat on their backs.
Haha, don't make me laugh, Athiests don't kill people because they HAVE religion. It probably has happened for a few insane people but it's not like there was every some non-god guided empire killing off believers. Puhlease.
I was clearly talking about religious agenda here, as in - killing in the name of God. Not just random murders.
Quote from: Tidenburg on March 30, 2010, 12:16:05 AM
Haha, don't make me laugh, Athiests don't kill people because they HAVE religion. It probably has happened for a few insane people but it's not like there was every some non-god guided empire killing off believers. Puhlease.
I was clearly talking about religious agenda here, as in - killing in the name of God. Not just random murders.
And what exactly is the difference between killing in the name of god or for your own benefit?
I'm hoping you'll look at what you just said and realise how stupid a question it was.
Are you just dumb?
Your problem is that people have fought war in the name of God, yet they could have fought the same war on different terms.
Let's say there is a holy land somewhere. The same land is also very resourcefullness.
If another land has interrest in it and wants to claim it by any means neccessary they could either tell their people:
A) We will rage war upon this country because the land is holy to us.
B) We will rage war upon this country because it's very resourcefull to us.
From the above example you could say that for A) you use religion as a tool to get what you want. As people within the same religion share your ideas and values they will support you.
Now for example B) there is no religion involved, it's purely out of interrest of the resources.
Wars will be fought wether it's because of religion or resources.
Go figure it out smartass.
Quotebecause it's very resourcefull to us.
You are now aware of the difference.
Congrats.
Killing someone for a god that MIGHT exist is taking a life for an unsure purpose. Killing for resources is an actual gain. It's a magical thing called reality vs possibility.
War would be fought. But if you'd actually take a look back in time not so far (I mean OUTSIDE of american history), most wars are for PURELY religious reasons. Back before the resource race was on.
QuoteGo figure it out smartass.
Really? ...I don't even know how to respond to that.
Quote from: Tidenburg on March 30, 2010, 02:36:55 AM
Quotebecause it's very resourcefull to us.
You are now aware of the difference.
Congrats.
Killing someone because for a god that MIGHT exist is taking a life for an unsure purpose. Killing for resources is an actual gain. It's a magical thing called reality and possibility.
Still, you need to understand that ANY thing used as an excuse to fight a war over is as bad. It doesn't matter of it's because of religious views or what a country can gain. It is bad.
And to get back at my previous post. Even if everyone on earth is an athiest, they WILL find a reason to fight for just not because of religion. Also, it is proven over and over again that people abused their power over the people by bending rules so it is okay in "god's" eyes. We know religion is bad but most religious wars could have been fought over something totally not related to a god. And using that as a tool AKA excuse.
Religion is not the problem, humans are.
True but for more valid reasons. The earth is purging humans out and we're going to have to start fighting each-other for resources pretty soon if it all goes tits up.
There are valid reasons for war. There are good and bad reasons to kill people. A might-be God is part of the latter.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
My belief is that when atheists, or at least some athesists, realize that there might be more to life than science, atheists will be less unbearable.
my name's rob and i like cheese and puddles hehe.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 29, 2010, 11:24:16 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
It's not about winning or losing a discussion. If that is your entire aim, then you are missing the point of it all. The point is to have an open talk with another person and have mutual interest in each other's views so that you can accomplish something. This is done with respect- not a battle that you are fighting to win. Present your views, listen to the other, and then calmly talk about your similarities and differences. If you influence the other person, so be it. And the only way you can impact another person is by taking this approach. I'm praying for you brother...
I agree, I have to admit "im praying for you brother" made me smile, hehe
I imagined jesus with a piece of bread on one hand and wine on the other xD
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 30, 2010, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
My belief is that when atheists, or at least some athesists, realize that there might be more to life than science, atheists will be less unbearable.
You are right, we are the unbearable ones. Basing everything we do on science and not waiting for a mystical being to help us through our times. Get stuff done in the real world don't ask a magical wizard to do it.
I think farley was missing this from his post:
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.tinypic.com%2F28ujinq.jpg&hash=4a179e365853b171e29fdea3f7cc012583b4d901)
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 30, 2010, 11:09:49 PM
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 30, 2010, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
My belief is that when atheists, or at least some athesists, realize that there might be more to life than science, atheists will be less unbearable.
You are right, we are the unbearable ones. Basing everything we do on science and not waiting for a mystical being to help us through our times. Get stuff done in the real world don't ask a magical wizard to do it.
You are right, we people who believe in some sort of higher power reject all forms of science in hopes that it will one day get us in big with the thing upstairs. And you are also right. I don't work for anything I ask my magical fairy god to grant my wishes.
My neighbors' (pastor and wife) son who is 19 is going to be a father. They simply say that god will provide and everything will be okay. Why don't they make that kid get his GED and try and land a decent job so he will be able to provide for his future family?
lulz at priest kid xD
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 31, 2010, 05:56:06 AM
My neighbors' (pastor and wife) son who is 19 is going to be a father. They simply say that god will provide and everything will be okay. Why don't they make that kid get his GED and try and land a decent job so he will be able to provide for his future family?
You can't possibly be saying that all Christians believe that God will provide everything for them in their life because your neighbor is an example of someone who does. I'd say most don't.
I'd say that is has a certain mental place in all Christians, like praying. Anything you pray for that betters your life or someone else's could be accomplished by other means. If you friend is in the hospital, don't pray that he will get better, pay. If you don't have the money then get a job. I think that simply hoping and passing it off as working because you said words at night is pointless and gets nothing done.
God grant me strength so that I can talk some sense into Ion.
I still think Farley is trulzing. Ion, you know the concepts but you're shit at explaining them.
/thread
Quote from: FarleyFan on April 01, 2010, 02:43:48 AM
God grant me strength so that I can talk some sense into Ion.
This is probably the first post you've made that I've liked.
Quote from: Tidenburg on April 01, 2010, 06:57:28 PM
I still think Farley is trulzing. Ion, you know the concepts but you're shit at explaining them.
/thread
I was responding to what I deemed a troll post.
First of all, there are no concepts. I don't believe in god, and if there were concepts, that would be the religion of no god. You are shit at living so try and get better.
Religion as a basis is the thought of having something after you die, that you don't just end. Praying for something to happen doesn't get anything done. That is my point.
I wish I was christian, because then I could say go to fucking hell. But since I can't, I will just say go die in a hole.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_pDYpkU_h5UE%2FRi_XbIzKczI%2FAAAAAAAAB2g%2FK-uGhaI4CDU%2Fs400%2Fretard.jpg&hash=34dcb1f7558ae542d7b5f61dfd8bb726d387797f)
Now, in an effort to avoid having this thread closed, let's get back on topic and end the personal insults and retardedness.
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 01, 2010, 11:10:14 PM
First of all, there are no concepts. I don't believe in god, and if there were concepts, that would be the religion of no god. You are shit at living so try and get better.
The one good thing that comes from atheists is that they don't believe in an afterlife, so they preach that people live better lives. You would make a good preacher, Ion.
Religion as a basis is the thought of having something after you die, that you don't just end. Praying for something to happen doesn't get anything done. That is my point.
I've heard your point. What are you getting at? We all, more or less, know these things.
I wish I was christian, because then I could say go to fucking hell. But since I can't, I will just say go die in a hole.
What is it? Die in a hole or try to live a better life? I'm confused.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_pDYpkU_h5UE%2FRi_XbIzKczI%2FAAAAAAAAB2g%2FK-uGhaI4CDU%2Fs400%2Fretard.jpg&hash=34dcb1f7558ae542d7b5f61dfd8bb726d387797f)
Now, in an effort to avoid having this thread closed, let's get back on topic and end the personal insults and retardedness.
So, you post a picture that says "YOU'RE A RETARD!" and then immediately after that, you say to get back on topic and end the personal insults. I think you maybe missed a step or ten.
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on April 01, 2010, 08:17:51 PM
Quote from: FarleyFan on April 01, 2010, 02:43:48 AM
God grant me strength so that I can talk some sense into Ion.
This is probably the first post you've made that I've liked.
:(
I thought you would like this one.
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 30, 2010, 07:30:45 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 27, 2010, 04:57:41 PM
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 27, 2010, 08:26:06 AM
Quote from: monterto on March 27, 2010, 06:02:25 AM
Mark + execute
that is all
test test test
No No No. Mark and execute is one of the biggest downfalls in Splinter Cell Conviction. It makes the gameplay feel automated without feeling any glory for your actions. All you do is put a mark on the guy and then press a button whenever you want and it just kills him. No real skill or fun involved. It should be a free game without the computer itself doing the work for you because a lot of doors of opportunity are closed with this.
Curdy, he was joking. No one likes M+E.
But maybe we should test to double check.
This thread isn't really still going. Let it die already.
Quote from: Westfall on April 02, 2010, 03:14:45 PM
This thread isn't really still going. Let it die already.
Will it go to heaven?
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 02, 2010, 08:42:25 PM
Quote from: Westfall on April 02, 2010, 03:14:45 PM
This thread isn't really still going. Let it die already.
Will it go to heaven?
Why do you say you don't care about other peoples beliefs, but then you go and mock them? Do you lose sleep at night knowing everybody isn't an atheist like you? Does it piss you off that some people believe in a God and afterlife? I don't understand.
Tigaer's got it. The seemingly arrogant atheists abroad will never admit that they *might* be wrong. Not only that, as if feeling like you know the answers isn't enough, you must insult everyone who does think you might be wrong.
Now I know I was generalizing, so don't crucify me.
Tigaer, Ion's response will be something like "It pisses me off that religion holds back humanity!" or something of that nature. What he fails to see is that religion advanced our humanity to a certain, important, degree.
I made a joke about dying. Get over it. I didn't take into account any mocking or political views; this thread is about religion, comment was posted about thread dying, boom.
Was I pissed about the joke? You need to get over yourself. Boom.
Quote from: FarleyFan on April 02, 2010, 11:37:09 PM
Was I pissed about the joke? You need to get over yourself. Boom.
Two posts were made about one line of a joke. So yes, you seemed to respond to it.
Farley, either you're a win troll or a complete moron. Ethics and morals existed FAR before the bible. Religion helped literise Britain was probably the only recently usefull thing it does. It also happens to scare people into doing things that if they were truely self-less they'd be doing anyway. Oh wait, it's also caused *DIRECTLY* the deaths of millions and causes irrational hate throughout the world.
I also laughed (and only suspect troll because of) you calling athiests ignorant. Firstly, go fuck yourself if you're going to stereotype like that. Second, I question what I believe all the time, including my lack of religious views. The difference between me and you is, when I do this I weigh up the probability of either side based on actual evidence, whereas (if YOU ever actually even considered you're wrong) you'd just use the "I've always believed this" as a huge way in favour OF religion. Don't say athiests are unquestioning when most athiests in America aren't raised that way - they get there THROUGH questioning their beliefs, religious nads are some of the most adamant delusionals you'll come across.
Religion is not another word for christianity only. What about muslims? Currently they are far more fucked up then christianity is at the moment, except the catholic church little boy affair.
So far I rather see them being nuked into oblivion then every religion together.
Yes but the only reason they're religion is more fucked up is because more of them take it seriously. Most Christians don't really follow the Bible's more extremist doctrines and go off murdering homosexuals and atheists. It's all due to education and secularism and the Middle East needs a shitload of both.
Muslim's expand far further then the middle-easts alone. Fucked up Azian muslims are more extreme in their manners.
Quote from: Tidenburg on April 03, 2010, 09:35:32 AM
Farley, either you're a win troll or a complete moron. Ethics and morals existed FAR before the bible. Religion helped literise Britain was probably the only recently usefull thing it does. It also happens to scare people into doing things that if they were truely self-less they'd be doing anyway. Oh wait, it's also caused *DIRECTLY* the deaths of millions and causes irrational hate throughout the world.
I'm a thousand percent sure I said religion helped advance humanity, not THE BIBLE. Religion was around long before the Bible. I mean, come on. You call me ignorant in the next paragraph and say here that this is the only good thing religion does? Really?
I also laughed (and only suspect troll because of) you calling athiests ignorant. Firstly, go fuck yourself if you're going to stereotype like that.
I'm a thousand percent sure that I said I was generalizing. And I'm a thousand percent sure I said arrogant, not ignorant (though that can be true). Your comprehension is shitty, why should I be the one fucking myself?
Second, I question what I believe all the time, including my lack of religious views. The difference between me and you is, when I do this I weigh up the probability of either side based on actual evidence, whereas (if YOU ever actually even considered you're wrong) you'd just use the "I've always believed this" as a huge way in favour OF religion. Don't say athiests are unquestioning when most athiests in America aren't raised that way - they get there THROUGH questioning their beliefs, religious nads are some of the most adamant delusionals you'll come across.
Well I'm glad you, like me, aren't so overly confident about your views like many other atheists and even Christians/Muslims etc... Sometimes evidence isn't enough. You could have all the "evidence" in the world and still not be convinced either way. Don't say I ignore the evidence as this assumption is based on nothing but bias. The difference is the way people think. Some people just don't see a single way God can exist and some people don't see a way that God can't exist, and I pity those people.
I don't think that just because once you have questioned your beliefs in the past and changed your thinking that it gives you the right to be an asshole and act like your point of view is the end-all-be-all way of thinking. Even once a former religious man renounces his religious beliefs, should he cease to question his new beliefs? It's like a person believing he's reached the pinnacle of his mental evolution, arrogance at its finest. (This goes vice versa for religious people ofc)
Quote from: FarleyFan on April 04, 2010, 01:36:08 AM
Quote from: Tidenburg on April 03, 2010, 09:35:32 AM
Farley, either you're a win troll or a complete moron. Ethics and morals existed FAR before the bible. Religion helped literise Britain was probably the only recently usefull thing it does. It also happens to scare people into doing things that if they were truely self-less they'd be doing anyway. Oh wait, it's also caused *DIRECTLY* the deaths of millions and causes irrational hate throughout the world.
I'm a thousand percent sure I said religion helped advance humanity, not THE BIBLE. Religion was around long before the Bible. I mean, come on. You call me ignorant in the next paragraph and say here that this is the only good thing religion does? Really?
If you study history, you will understand that religion was more of a hindrance than a help. Ancient cultures would spend months preparing to bury someone. They would put extremely valuable stones and sculptures in with the bodies so they could cross the border into a better life. Not good.
I also laughed (and only suspect troll because of) you calling athiests ignorant. Firstly, go fuck yourself if you're going to stereotype like that.
I'm a thousand percent sure that I said I was generalizing. And I'm a thousand percent sure I said arrogant, not ignorant (though that can be true). Your comprehension is shitty, why should I be the one fucking myself?
Generalizing = stereotyping in this sense.
Second, I question what I believe all the time, including my lack of religious views. The difference between me and you is, when I do this I weigh up the probability of either side based on actual evidence, whereas (if YOU ever actually even considered you're wrong) you'd just use the "I've always believed this" as a huge way in favour OF religion. Don't say athiests are unquestioning when most athiests in America aren't raised that way - they get there THROUGH questioning their beliefs, religious nads are some of the most adamant delusionals you'll come across.
Well I'm glad you, like me, aren't so overly confident about your views like many other atheists and even Christians/Muslims etc... Sometimes evidence isn't enough. You could have all the "evidence" in the world and still not be convinced either way. Don't say I ignore the evidence as this assumption is based on nothing but bias. The difference is the way people think. Some people just don't see a single way God can exist and some people don't see a way that God can't exist, and I pity those people.
Science > faith. Faith does nothing for society besides tell people not to kill people. But, guess what, basic human logic says not to kill people. Religion is a poor mans way of teaching their kids to be good or something terrible will happen.
I don't think that just because once you have questioned your beliefs in the past and changed your thinking that it gives you the right to be an asshole and act like your point of view is the end-all-be-all way of thinking. Even once a former religious man renounces his religious beliefs, should he cease to question his new beliefs? It's like a person believing he's reached the pinnacle of his mental evolution, arrogance at its finest. (This goes vice versa for religious people ofc)
Are you free from this? You say you question, yet you still pull evidence as a sign of a God, since "evidence isn't enough." What else is there besides evidence? Christians site the bible as evidence, and I will site Harry Potter and thousands of other books containing things Christians can't account for, since it will be book against book in that sense.
My head is starting to hurt.
Quote from: Savior20061 on April 04, 2010, 05:20:04 AM
My head is starting to hurt.
I wonder how many different colors that quote will end up getting lol
Ion, you think that faith does not have answers to questions and that science and faith can't coexist...BUT THEY DO. It is something you need to realize. You act like people can only choose faith or science, but I prefer both because the way I see it they can agree completely. :o
QuoteIf you study history, you will understand that religion was more of a hindrance than a help. Ancient cultures would spend months preparing to bury someone. They would put extremely valuable stones and sculptures in with the bodies so they could cross the border into a better life. Not good.
Your example was a terrible example of this. Sure, there are instances of it being a "hindrance", but lengthly burial rituals? Seriously?
QuoteGeneralizing = stereotyping in this sense.
No shit. I said that I knew I was generalizing. I said forgive me - "don't crucify me". And if you think that you haven't stereotyped within your last few posts then you are undeniably high.
QuoteScience > faith. Faith does nothing for society besides tell people not to kill people. But, guess what, basic human logic says not to kill people. Religion is a poor mans way of teaching their kids to be good or something terrible will happen.
You must have a lot of faith in science to believe that's all there is. Ironic? What I highlighted in bold is ridiculous. Ignorant? Religion can help rescue drug/alcohol addicts, give heaps to charity, charity organizations are typically founded by religious people, inspire hope, promote morality, etc... Of course it has its negative aspects but that doesn't mean that the world would be better off without it - and that goes for just about everything. Basic human logic says not to kill people? You can't be serious. I won't even argue with this secondary point because it goes with the stupid bold statement.
Get real dude. It's like you guys are blocking out every single thing that is positive that comes from religion and highlight anything that you deem negative. Why? So you can feel righteous "knowing" that you advanced humanity from what you personally percieve as blindness? It's why I said you seem arrogant.
QuoteAre you free from this? You say you question, yet you still pull evidence as a sign of a God, since "evidence isn't enough." What else is there besides evidence? Christians site the bible as evidence, and I will site Harry Potter and thousands of other books containing things Christians can't account for, since it will be book against book in that sense
I said I see some pieces of evidence that suggest some higher power, and some pieces of evidence that suggest that a "scientific" origin. I believe in evolution, and in God. Imagine that! Is it really that hard to think that science and faith can coexist?
As for the Bible, I believe the basic stories took place. After the countless translations there are bound to be a few holes and exaggerations. Usually the basic stories remain the same and some details are shaky. Big deal. It's about the stories and messages. Not all of the Bible is meant to be taken 100% literally, and that is something that atheists and Christians alike fail to understand. There, I found something in common.
Quote from: FarleyFan on April 04, 2010, 06:24:22 AM
As for the Bible, I believe the basic stories took place. After the countless translations there are bound to be a few holes and exaggerations. Usually the basic stories remain the same and some details are shaky. Big deal. It's about the stories and messages. Not all of the Bible is meant to be taken 100% literally, and that is something that atheists and Christians alike fail to understand. There, I found something in common.
My 2 cents involve this ^^
Religions to me are just a nice way to instill morals on a general populous. On top of that though, it's food for thought for things we don't know for sure. Science hasn't proven everything, and religion gives a 2nd story to it all.
I agree with Farley when it comes to the bible. The stories aren't supposed to be taken literally, but instead teach morals that you will undoubtedly learn within the course of your own life. Be good, and good things will happen. Be Bad, and bad things will happen. The only person giving more meaning or significance to the stories is the readers themselves.
The Bible in this case is just a book of stories created by man. Used to unite people under a similar belief as a way to make order out of chaos. To give a purpose for the things we do, rather than it just being here a long time until the end of life. To prepare people for the betterment of their life. To have answers that are just placeholders till proven different.
We are the only beings that can take something so innocent, blow it up to unreasonable proportions, then shatter it by using it for unjust means. (War, Sacrifice, Prayer, Recruitment, ETC)
I believe Religion is wrong. Not for the values it teaches, but rather what it has and is used for.
Yeah I agree Cronky. However, when stories have been looked at from a scientific stance, a lot of the stories have been proven true - or at least kind of true.
For example, the world wide flood that was talked about in the Bible may have just been a large flood that happened in the middle east. Like a 400 square mile flood. Noah didn't save all animals from the whole world and repopulate the whole world, but he did save some species from that area in an arc that probably was not as big as it says.
But you see as the centuries go by the stories get larger. Maybe so that the messages behind the stories ring a little louder.
QuoteYour example was a terrible example of this. Sure, there are instances of it being a "hindrance", but lengthly burial rituals? Seriously?
They would take extremely valuable items and stones and use them in burials. Imagine better uses for items like this, and imagine what it would equate to if this happened today. The reason I used this example is because I can tell you stories of death and destruction, but that is all too common in arguments like this. An example of a common practice that isn't talked about much felt appropriate.
QuoteNo shit. I said that I knew I was generalizing. I said forgive me - "don't crucify me". And if you think that you haven't stereotyped within your last few posts then you are undeniably high.
Just because you said you are generalizing doesn't make it okay. I have generalized, and it may not be right.
QuoteYou must have a lot of faith in science to believe that's all there is. Ironic? What I highlighted in bold is ridiculous. Ignorant? Religion can help rescue drug/alcohol addicts, give heaps to charity, charity organizations are typically founded by religious people, inspire hope, promote morality, etc... Of course it has its negative aspects but that doesn't mean that the world would be better off without it - and that goes for just about everything.
You don't have faith in something that is undeniably true and has been proven multiple times to be true. Gravity is true. IT HAPPENS. No faith involved. I don't have faith in science because science is a proven fact of life. I can prove gravity exists in anything I do. I don't float up. Proven. I can prove that electricity powers my computer because it has been proven true over multiple tests and conclusions. You can not prove there is a god (any god for that matter) because there is simply no evidence. No one has ever proved something doesn't exist because that isn't how it works. Let's take for example extraterrestrial life:
I believe that there are other forms of life in this universe that we haven't discovered. You can make points that life needs water and sunlight, and most planets don't offer that. I will say that these forms of life may NOT need that. I completely believe that there is life somewhere. What I will not do, however, is ask someone to prove that there isn't something out there. You simply can't do it. There are infinite ways to prove something is wrong, and to completely prove it, you must name all infinite numbers of them. I can come up with a way that your reasoning is wrong in every example you give me. BUT, until someone finds life or can prove UNDENIABLY that something is out there, it is not true and is purely hypothesis. Therefor, I am wrong until proven right, not the other way around.
Back to what you said, in particular "Ignorant? Religion can help rescue drug/alcohol addicts, give heaps to charity, charity organizations are typically founded by religious people, inspire hope, promote morality, etc... " All of those things can be accomplished through other means. Drug/Alcohol addicts = counseling, multiple programs, monitors for such things, etc... None of those involve religion.
Your charity statement really bugs me, since I donated to Haiti and multiple other organizations. You are semi right though: when people give money at church, which they normally do, it can go to a good cause. The reason people donate at church and no where else is because they have been trained to donate at church. I don't go to church, or donate at church, but I can guarantee you that my family has donated more to charity than you are worth. We aren't religious. Church is a means of donation, and it definitely helps. My point is that you don't have to be religious to donate.
Inspiring hope and promoting morality...you are 100% right. Hope for an afterlife makes people happy I assume. I don't have it and don't need it though. Morality is accomplished by religion in a sinister way though: Be good or burn in a fire for all eternity. I prefer my way: make the right choices and be rewarded by feeling good and reaping other benefits. Religion is needed in that sense either, although it does help people.
QuoteBasic human logic says not to kill people? You can't be serious. I won't even argue with this secondary point because it goes with the stupid bold statement.
Argue it. I don't kill people, therefor I just proved it true. I may not do it because of laws, sure. But I would still not do it. I don't even believe capital punishment is right. Law != Religion. A lot of times species work together and don't attack each other. They don't have religion.
QuoteGet real dude. It's like you guys are blocking out every single thing that is positive that comes from religion and highlight anything that you deem negative. Why? So you can feel righteous "knowing" that you advanced humanity from what you personally percieve as blindness? It's why I said you seem arrogant.
I don't understand what you don't get? Most scientists are atheist, purely because of the field they are in. They do a variety of things; make life saving medicines, make huge leaps and bounds in the technological world, make the food you ate for breakfast safe, etc... Most of them are atheists. Not saying they can't be religious but a good percentage are atheists. I know you will go find a poll somewhere, because I sure found one that said more believe in god. Then I found another 10 polls that said the opposite. I am sure you can agree with me though, in the sense that MOST SCIENTISTS ARE ATHEIST.
QuoteI said I see some pieces of evidence that suggest some higher power, and some pieces of evidence that suggest that a "scientific" origin. I believe in evolution, and in God. Imagine that! Is it really that hard to think that science and faith can coexist?
It is hard when your bible CLEARLY states how life started, in what order, who created it, who was first alive, and so on. It doesn't even get its story straight, so how could anyone follow it? Different stories of the same thing? No, you don't screw up major details (what came first, how Eve was made) and say it is the same story. I am glad you believe in evolution, because it is a scientific theory/fact (theory = To scientists, a theory provides a coherent explanation that holds true for a large number of facts and observations about the natural world. Theory = Fact). Faith can not be explained, mainly because there is not a single piece of evidence supporting it.
QuoteAs for the Bible, I believe the basic stories took place. After the countless translations there are bound to be a few holes and exaggerations. Usually the basic stories remain the same and some details are shaky. Big deal. It's about the stories and messages. Not all of the Bible is meant to be taken 100% literally, and that is something that atheists and Christians alike fail to understand. There, I found something in common.
Christians are supposed to base their life and everything they do on the bible. How can you do that when you even admit it is wrong? The messages are great, but the messages in ancient Greek mythology could be deemed better. Should I go and believe in Zeus and Poseidon?
QuoteReligions to me are just a nice way to instill morals on a general populous. On top of that though, it's food for thought for things we don't know for sure. Science hasn't proven everything, and religion gives a 2nd story to it all.
That is the best thing about religion. It does. But that is only because kids are brought up from birth like that. I know that kids who aren't raised religiously aren't terrible kids, they still have morals.
QuoteI agree with Farley when it comes to the bible. The stories aren't supposed to be taken literally, but instead teach morals that you will undoubtedly learn within the course of your own life. Be good, and good things will happen. Be Bad, and bad things will happen. The only person giving more meaning or significance to the stories is the readers themselves.
Agreement. Besides the fact that people DO take them literally (6000 year old Earth).
QuoteFor example, the world wide flood that was talked about in the Bible may have just been a large flood that happened in the middle east. Like a 400 square mile flood. Noah didn't save all animals from the whole world and repopulate the whole world, but he did save some species from that area in an arc that probably was not as big as it says.
Yes. This is also mentioned in many other religions. It could have just been a flood. The Midwest is having a pretty big flood right now. No biblical proportions, but a nice one. You realize that because people wrote about a flood in a book, added a savior character, and printed this book doesn't mean there is a god? I am sure there are many stories that are semi true (floods, artifacts, statues, etc..) but that doesn't mean they are from God, they could have been made by the very people who wrote about them.
Quote from: FarleyFan on April 04, 2010, 07:52:18 PM
Yeah I agree Cronky. However, when stories have been looked at from a scientific stance, a lot of the stories have been proven true - or at least kind of true.
For example, the world wide flood that was talked about in the Bible may have just been a large flood that happened in the middle east. Like a 400 square mile flood. Noah didn't save all animals from the whole world and repopulate the whole world, but he did save some species from that area in an arc that probably was not as big as it says.
But you see as the centuries go by the stories get larger. Maybe so that the messages behind the stories ring a little louder.
That's the problem I have with them. The stories haven't modernized to make the message more relate-able, rather they have become more exaggerated. That if a person can't see the underlying message behind the simple origin of the story, then the people should change. Not the story.
Noah may have done what you said, but to throw the story of it to such a higher standing just to emphasize your point... isn't that against some kind of general message that is supposed to be given within the book.
Like if I was to bring donuts into work one morning, but I told the story that I saved the entire office from starvation. Redeeming them in the eyes of a greater being that is called their stomach.
Though I understand the stories were made a long time ago. Life in and of itself was a mystery. No theory was proven, nor is there to a 100% evident means today. People want to believe that there was a rhyme and a reason to why they are here, how they came to be, and what they should do. The stories residing with each religion are good place holders, but to take any of them in a literal and/or end all of sense just makes little sense to me.
All in all I still stand in the same place as mentioned before. Religion is a good base. Use outside of Moral Values and "Answers" to questions that have yet to be answered just strikes me as odd. Even simple things like Praying come off as weird to me. An all knowing, seeing, and able being does... Something one day and creates us. Now he wants penance for doing it?
It's like me setting up a Sea Monkey kit and demanding that they build a statue of me lest I flush them down the toilet.
Of course that's not to say that all religious people hold religion to that extent, just the people who do are the ones I'm pointing confused fingers at.
Two things:
1. Two Jews have taken a tour through Vatican. They walk around, amazed by the splendour and wealth. Then one of them says: "They're amazing, they started with just a barn".
2. Religion = BS, personal truths = awesome. Just think about it. If I can feel something, doesn't this mean that it exists? It does exist, but in my personal "internal" world.
That's why some people are going to church, imo. They allow others to affect they own "inside" and they end up picking up beliefs that are not very positive
Another thing to note is that every person has an internal "compass" that keeps them from wrongdoing. However, by breaking it with some competition (eg school), insecurity and moronic beliefs (go confess your sins, and you are forgiven [WTF? REALLY?]) you get some really nice people who would kill you (or worse) for a beer (yes I did exaggerate here, but you get the idea).
Oh and also: did you notice that high-ranked religious "VIPs" promote war and suffering?
eg. Vatican was blessing Hitlers cannons and weaponry.
eg. Vatican didn't approve use of condoms in third-world countries.
Now tell me that the Church does something good.
Oh and don't forget who is the actual sponsor of wars and manslaughters ;)
(no I don't mean only the Vatican)
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 04, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
They would take extremely valuable items and stones and use them in burials. Imagine better uses for items like this, and imagine what it would equate to if this happened today.
no dude
not the valuable stones
nooooooooooooooo
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on April 04, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 04, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
They would take extremely valuable items and stones and use them in burials. Imagine better uses for items like this, and imagine what it would equate to if this happened today.
no dude
not the valuable stones
nooooooooooooooo
No! The Black Rock of Doom! It must not fall into their hands! I must retrieve it, I will need a party.
*looks around*
*looks at Minsc*
*approaches Minsc*
*Boo hides under Minsc's vest*
"Yo Minsc how abouts ya come wit meh and grab that artifact? Ya cant? Fer a woman?
She pretty? Yea lets go grab her and then we move on for the rock, rite?"
*they move out*
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on April 04, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 04, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
They would take extremely valuable items and stones and use them in burials. Imagine better uses for items like this, and imagine what it would equate to if this happened today.
no dude
not the valuable stones
nooooooooooooooo
How about I take your house and everything you have and say I am going to take it and you will never see it again because someone died and this will help them?
but my house isn't made of valuable stones ???
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on April 05, 2010, 01:34:16 AM
but my house isn't made of valuable stones ???
Your mother's vagina is
MOTHER OF PEARL!!!
Clever
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 29, 2010, 10:54:25 PM
Since you guys are arguing over nothing right now I am just gonna talk...
I never try and bring up religion because I am heavily outnumbered, but if it is brought up, I will force my point upon people. If they want to talk about it then I will almost assuredly win the discussion.
My belief is that when people, or at least most people, realize that science > religion, the world will be a better place.
I have a question for you. What is the source and meaning of human personality? Can you think of a way of deriving personality from non-personal sources? The impersonal view throws this up by chance out of time sequence. This may be veiled by connotation words, but it makes no difference. The secular shift from mass to energy or motion- all eventually come back to the impersonal, plus time, plus chance. If this is really the only answer to manââ,¬â,,¢s personality, then personality is no more than an illusion, a kind of sick joke which no amount of semantic juggling will alter. Only some form of mystical jump will allow us to accept that personality comes from impersonality. The answer is only a mystical answer of words from metaphysical magicians. No one has presented an idea, let alone demonstrated it to be feasible, to explain how the impersonal beginning, plus time, plus chance, can give personality. Personality has appeared out of the hat? Either the thinker must say man is dead, because personality is a mirage, or else he must hang his reason on a hook outside the door. If man has been kicked up by chance out of what is only impersonal, then those things that make him man- hope of purpose and significance, love, motions of morality and rationality, beauty and verbal communication- are ultimately unfillable and are thus meaningless. Hmmmmmââ,¬Â¦Ã¢â,¬Â¦..
Is that taken from somewhere?
Sound way too... Good. To be made up on the spot ;)
Can almost swear that I've heard it before...
Yeah I wrote that.
I didn't try and read it sorz
Quote from: Cronky on April 05, 2010, 05:02:25 AM
Is that taken from somewhere?
Sound way too... Good. To be made up on the spot ;)
Can almost swear that I've heard it before...
Yes, I took it from somewhere. Actually, I was reading the book where it was from, and I combined a few sections into one thought. I figured I would not say where it was from because nobody would care anyway, but I'm glad you asked :P. It is from Francis Schaeffer's book called
A God Who Is There. You can buy it here: http://www.amazon.com/Francis-Schaeffer-Trilogy-Three-Essential/dp/0891075615 (http://www.amazon.com/Francis-Schaeffer-Trilogy-Three-Essential/dp/0891075615) I highly recommend this book, but I would suggest reading CS Lewis's
Mere Christianity first. http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652926 (http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652926) Now, before anyone grows in skepticism to this, let me just say that they are good reads for anyone. They incur profound thought in the reader by starting with the simplest things and slowing expanding. Now, you might just say that I have been brainwashed by this. However, I have read sections from books of all standpoints even if I do not initially agree with their views because I want to see the thinking process of various people and how they develop their ideas. It is quite interesting, and it really helps a person identify what they truly believe by investigating all aspects.
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 06:58:05 AM
I didn't try and read it sorz
Didn't try to read it? Hmmm...You have read every other thing I post but for some reason you have not read this one? This seems quite odd...I guess this must just be a coincidence huh?
I didn't want to take the time to try and understand 3/4 of those words. I doubt you even know what it means. Maybe even separate it into separate thoughts? Then I will try.
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 05:27:52 PM
I didn't want to take the time to try and understand 3/4 of those words. I doubt you even know what it means. Maybe even separate it into separate thoughts? Then I will try.
The only words I couldn't understand were connotation and metaphysical. Everything else is just basic vocab. How old are you?
Quote from: tigaer on April 05, 2010, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 05:27:52 PM
I didn't want to take the time to try and understand 3/4 of those words. I doubt you even know what it means. Maybe even separate it into separate thoughts? Then I will try.
The only words I couldn't understand were connotation and metaphysical. Everything else is just basic vocab. How old are you?
Let me rephrase: He copied that from a book that was in different parts. The idea doesn't make sense. I don't know what it is asking when it talks about deriving personality form non-personal sources. Sorry for not comprehending.
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
Quote from: tigaer on April 05, 2010, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 05:27:52 PM
I didn't want to take the time to try and understand 3/4 of those words. I doubt you even know what it means. Maybe even separate it into separate thoughts? Then I will try.
The only words I couldn't understand were connotation and metaphysical. Everything else is just basic vocab. How old are you?
Let me rephrase: He copied that from a book that was in different parts. The idea doesn't make sense. I don't know what it is asking when it talks about deriving personality form non-personal sources. Sorry for not comprehending.
What I got out of it is that our personalities aren't explained by science. Why we are what we are. Why we do what we do aside from acts of basic instincts. That there is no chemical formula that makes someone an asshole, or a nice guy. So to that extent you have to open your mind to less rational answers. If we were indeed made by a "Higher Being" then it would make sense of this discrepancy in our own selves. Though that is still a big IF, which just simply has yet to be explained in all our years of living.
An "Answer" to the question first stated. Placeholder for the real answer, or not. It is still an answer to some.
Some dogs are nice. Some are mean. Some like people. Some hate people. That all happens within the same breed of dog.... wouldn't that be the same thing?
Quote from: Opioid on April 04, 2010, 10:52:52 PM
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on April 04, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 04, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
They would take extremely valuable items and stones and use them in burials. Imagine better uses for items like this, and imagine what it would equate to if this happened today.
no dude
not the valuable stones
nooooooooooooooo
No! The Black Rock of Doom! It must not fall into their hands! I must retrieve it, I will need a party.
*looks around*
*looks at Minsc*
*approaches Minsc*
*Boo hides under Minsc's vest*
"Yo Minsc how abouts ya come wit meh and grab that artifact? Ya cant? Fer a woman?
She pretty? Yea lets go grab her and then we move on for the rock, rite?"
*they move out*
OMG! Why does have to be a BLACK rock? Racist......
But seriously, I don't think any of this is necessary. People are becoming increasingly secular or atheistic and soon the Christian right culture warriors will have something real to bitch about. Christianity, Judaism Islam will be considered with the same credibility as Zeus and Minerva coming out of his head. And the best part is, us atheists don't have to do a damn thing. Just let the Jesusfreak fundies scare more children from their church.
In the meantime, just let people believe what they want. As long as they don't hurt anybody, who gives a shit?
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
Quote from: tigaer on April 05, 2010, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 05:27:52 PM
I didn't want to take the time to try and understand 3/4 of those words. I doubt you even know what it means. Maybe even separate it into separate thoughts? Then I will try.
The only words I couldn't understand were connotation and metaphysical. Everything else is just basic vocab. How old are you?
Let me rephrase: He copied that from a book that was in different parts. The idea doesn't make sense. I don't know what it is asking when it talks about deriving personality form non-personal sources. Sorry for not comprehending.
If I can remember right from a few pages back, you said that you had a high IQ, so I thought you would be able to comprehend the semi-complex writing...But anyway...Yes, Cronky has the gist of the idea. If one claims that man has happened out of basically nothing along with time and chance (which are impersonal things), how has man developed the qualities that make him man such as various personalities, feelings, and character traits that make him unique? If it true that man has come from the impersonal, then personality is merely and illusion and therefore dead and meaningless.
Maybe part of the reason your posts don't make sense is that your sentences are grammatically incorrect and feature numerous errors? I already explained my thoughts on the topic regardless of your ability of typing.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on April 06, 2010, 01:15:05 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
Quote from: tigaer on April 05, 2010, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 05, 2010, 05:27:52 PM
I didn't want to take the time to try and understand 3/4 of those words. I doubt you even know what it means. Maybe even separate it into separate thoughts? Then I will try.
The only words I couldn't understand were connotation and metaphysical. Everything else is just basic vocab. How old are you?
Let me rephrase: He copied that from a book that was in different parts. The idea doesn't make sense. I don't know what it is asking when it talks about deriving personality form non-personal sources. Sorry for not comprehending.
If I can remember right from a few pages back, you said that you had a high IQ, so I thought you would be able to comprehend the semi-complex writing...But anyway...Yes, Cronky has the gist of the idea. If one claims that man has happened out of basically nothing along with time and chance (which are impersonal things), how has man developed the qualities that make him man such as various personalities, feelings, and character traits that make him unique? If it true that man has come from the impersonal, then personality is merely and illusion and therefore dead and meaningless.
I don't know how you arrive with that conclusion. Why would an impersonal origin negate the apparent differences in people's personalities. Why would it become "dead" (nonexistent?) and "meaningless" (unconsequental?). I have to ask because I've debated many creationists/Jesusfreaks/Biblehumpers, not saying you are one. But you all seem to have the same mindset. That if there wasn't a Creator, then nothing ever matters and there is no meaning. Why does everyone always have to look for a fucking all-in-one meaning? Why can't people just live out their lives and scratch together some meaning as they go along?
Quote from: CurdyMilk on April 06, 2010, 01:15:05 AM
If I can remember right from a few pages back, you said that you had a high IQ, so I thought you would be able to comprehend the semi-complex writing...But anyway...Yes, Cronky has the gist of the idea. If one claims that man has happened out of basically nothing along with time and chance (which are impersonal things), how has man developed the qualities that make him man such as various personalities, feelings, and character traits that make him unique? If it true that man has come from the impersonal, then personality is merely and illusion and therefore dead and meaningless.
wow
and i thought cronky's posts were terrible
i mean wow
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on April 06, 2010, 07:09:15 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on April 06, 2010, 01:15:05 AM
If I can remember right from a few pages back, you said that you had a high IQ, so I thought you would be able to comprehend the semi-complex writing...But anyway...Yes, Cronky has the gist of the idea. If one claims that man has happened out of basically nothing along with time and chance (which are impersonal things), how has man developed the qualities that make him man such as various personalities, feelings, and character traits that make him unique? If it true that man has come from the impersonal, then personality is merely and illusion and therefore dead and meaningless.
wow
and i thought cronky's posts were terrible
i mean wow
Aggreed. Haven't seen so messed up wrinting in... 2-3 years?
Of course excluding this Soldium guy, but he didn't try to discuss anything ::)
Awww you guys. I know you all love me, but you don't need to state it so blatantly.
:-*
Now get back on topic, because your posts are supposed to contain something about the subject at hand. Not what makes me so great!
No we're in the offtopic section.
Now this thread is about ubersoldats.
but but... I was having so much fun with that topic!
Just 10 more posts on topic... pleasepleasepleasepleasePLEEEEEASE!
Then I'll get back to my chores.
Quote from: Opioid on April 06, 2010, 10:52:10 AM
No we're in the offtopic section.
Now this thread is about ubersoldats.
Going off-topic in an off-topic thread is still not allowed. Nice try!
Quote from: frvge on April 06, 2010, 02:03:20 PM
Quote from: Opioid on April 06, 2010, 10:52:10 AM
No we're in the offtopic section.
Now this thread is about ubersoldats.
Going off-topic in an off-topic thread is still not allowed. Nice try!
I'm not going off-topic. I'm staying on-topic while the topic changes.
See? Pretty easy.
lets talk about japanese fart porn!!!!!!!! oh how i love south park
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 06, 2010, 01:27:32 AM
Maybe part of the reason your posts don't make sense is that your sentences are grammatically incorrect and feature numerous errors? I already explained my thoughts on the topic regardless of your ability of typing.
Sorry, but I can't really understand what this means because it has some grammatical errors. "Ability of typing" is one of the parts I just can't figure out. Does it mean the typing has ability or is it
my ability to type? Maybe if I could comprehend this then I would be able to respond.
Quote from: frvge on April 06, 2010, 02:03:20 PM
Going off-topic in an off-topic thread is still not allowed. Nice try!
But what if the thread is the shittiest thread ever and is only gonna get worse if someone doesn't stop it?
I mean it's basically our moral duty to stop this shit right?
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg31.imageshack.us%2Fimg31%2F6872%2F1220559797695.png&hash=0f26bd5c2e85bbb7925b0e8ebb1005474f21dba2)
Wait wait...so illusion means dead.............we're all dead then. Everything around you is dead...your personality is dead...ouch, that's a mean way to put it.
Quote from: Westfall on April 07, 2010, 12:13:42 AM
Wait wait...so illusion means dead.............we're all dead then. Everything around you is dead...your personality is dead...ouch, that's a mean way to put it.
Why? The fact doesn't change anything, life goes on you know? ::)
Quote from: Ignas on April 07, 2010, 12:51:20 AM
Quote from: Westfall on April 07, 2010, 12:13:42 AM
Wait wait...so illusion means dead.............we're all dead then. Everything around you is dead...your personality is dead...ouch, that's a mean way to put it.
Why? The fact doesn't change anything, life goes on you know? ::)
how can life go on if you're dead?
QuoteThey would take extremely valuable items and stones and use them in burials. Imagine better uses for items like this, and imagine what it would equate to if this happened today. The reason I used this example is because I can tell you stories of death and destruction, but that is all too common in arguments like this. An example of a common practice that isn't talked about much felt appropriate
.
Sure it's "appropriate" in this sense, but who cares? It's not like if they didn't bury their valuable items then Hitler wouldn't have existed and you would be ruler of the world. I guess what I'm wondering is who exactly this is hurting?
QuoteJust because you said you are generalizing doesn't make it okay. I have generalized, and it may not be right.
If I knew that I was generalizing then obviously I knew that it doesn't apply to everything and everyone. Chill. You have generalized, but I forgive you. And I will not call you out on this especially knowing that I have done it as well. Der.
QuoteYou don't have faith in something that is undeniably true and has been proven multiple times to be true. Gravity is true. IT HAPPENS. No faith involved. I don't have faith in science because science is a proven fact of life. I can prove gravity exists in anything I do. I don't float up. Proven. I can prove that electricity powers my computer because it has been proven true over multiple tests and conclusions. You can not prove there is a god (any god for that matter) because there is simply no evidence. No one has ever proved something doesn't exist because that isn't how it works. Let's take for example extraterrestrial life:
I'm not arguing that scientific theories are false. Well, other than the Big Bang theory, but in my opinion that's less of a scientific theory and more of a guess. There's little to back that up and supposedly it's currently being replaced with a universal expansion theory, which is still just a guess. Even if they do hold water, I still doubt that they just happened. If it's so hard for you to believe that there was always a God, why is it so easy for you to believe these theories which state that there always was matter??
QuoteI believe that there are other forms of life in this universe that we haven't discovered. You can make points that life needs water and sunlight, and most planets don't offer that. I will say that these forms of life may NOT need that. I completely believe that there is life somewhere. What I will not do, however, is ask someone to prove that there isn't something out there. You simply can't do it. There are infinite ways to prove something is wrong, and to completely prove it, you must name all infinite numbers of them. I can come up with a way that your reasoning is wrong in every example you give me. BUT, until someone finds life or can prove UNDENIABLY that something is out there, it is not true and is purely hypothesis. Therefor, I am wrong until proven right, not the other way around.
I think there probably is life out there as well. It does not mean I am wrong, it does not mean I am right, it means I believe what I believe based on my feelings, thoughts, and logic. Coincedentally, some of the greatest scientific discoveries are made based on a hunch and a personal belief despite a lack of "evidence".
On a side note, you're probably thinking "flying spaghetti monster" right about now and I've seen that joke thrown around here a few times. People want to take their cues from South Park but it's funny that if you watch the next episode it talks about the possibility of God being real.
QuoteBack to what you said, in particular "Ignorant? Religion can help rescue drug/alcohol addicts, give heaps to charity, charity organizations are typically founded by religious people, inspire hope, promote morality, etc... " All of those things can be accomplished through other means. Drug/Alcohol addicts = counseling, multiple programs, monitors for such things, etc... None of those involve religion.
They can be accomplished but probably at a lower rate. Some of those that can't just be swayed by just counseling can be inspired by religion. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, and even Islam can inspire people to reclaim their life when presented with the idea of a higher power.
QuoteYour charity statement really bugs me, since I donated to Haiti and multiple other organizations. You are semi right though: when people give money at church, which they normally do, it can go to a good cause. The reason people donate at church and no where else is because they have been trained to donate at church. I don't go to church, or donate at church, but I can guarantee you that my family has donated more to charity than you are worth. We aren't religious. Church is a means of donation, and it definitely helps. My point is that you don't have to be religious to donate.
I don't go to church or donate to church either. And who do you think these charities are mostly run by? I get your point though.
QuoteInspiring hope and promoting morality...you are 100% right. Hope for an afterlife makes people happy I assume. I don't have it and don't need it though. Morality is accomplished by religion in a sinister way though: Be good or burn in a fire for all eternity. I prefer my way: make the right choices and be rewarded by feeling good and reaping other benefits. Religion is needed in that sense either, although it does help people.
You said I was at least semi-right about all the things I listed. Religion is complementary to these things. Of course. I wasn't saying they were benefits only from religion. I said that religion can help boost these means of helping people. A lot of people need this boost.
QuoteBasic human logic says not to kill people? You can't be serious. I won't even argue with this secondary point because it goes with the stupid bold statement.
QuoteArgue it. I don't kill people, therefor I just proved it true. I may not do it because of laws, sure. But I would still not do it. I don't even believe capital punishment is right. Law != Religion. A lot of times species work together and don't attack each other. They don't have religion.
You just talked about how hard it is to prove something. Then you cite yourself and declare it the truth. How did we even start talking about this? It just seems irrelevant.
QuoteI don't understand what you don't get? Most scientists are atheist, purely because of the field they are in. They do a variety of things; make life saving medicines, make huge leaps and bounds in the technological world, make the food you ate for breakfast safe, etc... Most of them are atheists. Not saying they can't be religious but a good percentage are atheists. I know you will go find a poll somewhere, because I sure found one that said more believe in god. Then I found another 10 polls that said the opposite. I am sure you can agree with me though, in the sense that MOST SCIENTISTS ARE ATHEIST.
Sure, most are atheist, but some are not. This goes back to what I said not too long ago. Sometimes the so called "evidence" isn't enough to form your opinions on the origin of the universe. I think that they were atheists before becoming scientists, rather than becoming atheist after becoming scientist. It seems obvious that they would be more interested in the field of science. That's the way the world is though. I'm certainly interested in science as you know, but a lot of religious people aren't to the extent of atheists. And that's too bad because science certainly hasn't shaken my belief in a God and in some cases supported it.
QuoteIt is hard when your bible CLEARLY states how life started, in what order, who created it, who was first alive, and so on. It doesn't even get its story straight, so how could anyone follow it? Different stories of the same thing? No, you don't screw up major details (what came first, how Eve was made) and say it is the same story. I am glad you believe in evolution, because it is a scientific theory/fact (theory = To scientists, a theory provides a coherent explanation that holds true for a large number of facts and observations about the natural world. Theory = Fact). Faith can not be explained, mainly because there is not a single piece of evidence supporting it.
There clearly were not these kinds of mistakes in the first iteration of the Bible. Whoever made the stories, God or not, was no slouch when it came to writing stories and getting them straight. The Adam and Eve flaw which is brought up so many times is just a simple translation error. Can it be more obvious? You can observe evolution and you would be a fool not to realize that it happens even if you did not believe that it was the origin of ALL species. Would you consider the possibility of God using evolution as a tool to create these species? What I believe is that the God initiated the "Big bang" or the "Big expansion" or whatever you want to call it. The first universal matter didn't come from nowhere. Essentially he had created man by initiating the events that would lead to man's existence. He didn't individually plop each animal on the Earth and in the Bible man's creation is just symbolic.
QuoteChristians are supposed to base their life and everything they do on the bible. How can you do that when you even admit it is wrong? The messages are great, but the messages in ancient Greek mythology could be deemed better. Should I go and believe in Zeus and Poseidon?
Not every single little word. People have such a problem understanding this. Why? Live your life based on the messages that you just mentioned. I don't understand why you would have to live your life based on the meaningless details. What do you mean exactly?
QuoteThat is the best thing about religion. It does. But that is only because kids are brought up from birth like that. I know that kids who aren't raised religiously aren't terrible kids, they still have morals.
Like I said, it just complements what is already there. It helps to solidify. You are doing a better job promoting religion than I am.
QuoteAgreement. Besides the fact that people DO take them literally (6000 year old Earth).
Yes, like you for example. I don't know what's worse. People that believe it down the last letter or the people that criticize it down to the last letter. You know, the letters form something that is more important than the background details.
QuoteYes. This is also mentioned in many other religions. It could have just been a flood. The Midwest is having a pretty big flood right now. No biblical proportions, but a nice one. You realize that because people wrote about a flood in a book, added a savior character, and printed this book doesn't mean there is a god? I am sure there are many stories that are semi true (floods, artifacts, statues, etc..) but that doesn't mean they are from God, they could have been made by the very people who wrote about them.
You realize that because people wrote about a flood in a book, added a savior character, and printed this book doesn't mean that the flood and character weren't real? This is my problem. The Bible has gone through countless iterations and translations. There are bound to be a few mistakes. The messages remain in tact and people like you are worried about how big the flood was. I'm saying the so called errors in the stories do not mean that whoever made these stories was a liar or did not exist. The Bible doesn't prove or disprove God's existence, it merely conveys his messages.
By the way, it's really late, I'm really tired, and this was a really long post. Forgive the typos or incomplete sentences that may be in here. I pasted this into a word document and it was something like 4-5 pages. :o
Quote from: Westfall on April 07, 2010, 06:00:50 AM
Quote from: Ignas on April 07, 2010, 12:51:20 AM
Quote from: Westfall on April 07, 2010, 12:13:42 AM
Wait wait...so illusion means dead.............we're all dead then. Everything around you is dead...your personality is dead...ouch, that's a mean way to put it.
Why? The fact doesn't change anything, life goes on you know? ::)
how can life go on if you're dead?
If everything is dead then there is no life or death, therefore the terms are interchangeable because neither of them apply.
That's how.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on April 06, 2010, 07:19:17 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on April 06, 2010, 01:27:32 AM
Maybe part of the reason your posts don't make sense is that your sentences are grammatically incorrect and feature numerous errors? I already explained my thoughts on the topic regardless of your ability of typing.
Sorry, but I can't really understand what this means because it has some grammatical errors. "Ability of typing" is one of the parts I just can't figure out. Does it mean the typing has ability or is it my ability to type? Maybe if I could comprehend this then I would be able to respond.
Your ability of typing coherent sentences. I am pretty sure it works either way. Regardless, everyone agreed that your writing was absolutely horrendous.
Quote from: Ignas on April 07, 2010, 01:51:05 PM
Quote from: Westfall on April 07, 2010, 06:00:50 AM
Quote from: Ignas on April 07, 2010, 12:51:20 AM
Quote from: Westfall on April 07, 2010, 12:13:42 AM
Wait wait...so illusion means dead.............we're all dead then. Everything around you is dead...your personality is dead...ouch, that's a mean way to put it.
Why? The fact doesn't change anything, life goes on you know? ::)
how can life go on if you're dead?
If everything is dead then there is no life or death, therefore the terms are interchangeable because neither of them apply.
That's how.
You make absolutely no sense. Nice try though. Glad you make sense in your own head.
QuoteI have to ask because I've debated many creationists/Jesusfreaks/Biblehumpers, not saying you are one. But you all seem to have the same mindset. That if there wasn't a Creator, then nothing ever matters and there is no meaning. Why does everyone always have to look for a fucking all-in-one meaning? Why can't people just live out their lives and scratch together some meaning as they go along?
No. If all this happened by chance then it is still amazing. Maybe not equally amazing but I'd say I'm pretty damn lucky to be alive and I'd try to enjoy what time I have left. I believe there is a God and I intend to live my life to the fullest despite my belief in some form of an afterlife.
From everything i've read on this topic, the only thing i can determine about this conversation is that this is a massive assault on religion. Also same in almost every single forum you run into, it is always the religious person on the defense. Not to mention the total amount of people that are against the one or two religious people. This is no mere debate, this is more of a everyone gang up on this person and throw all of the shots and don't give them any shots to question your motives.
But i will say that Farleyfan has done an amazing job at defending so i applaud him for sticking in it.
:D
Quote from: :D on April 18, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
From everything i've read on this topic, the only thing i can determine about this conversation is that this is a massive assault on religion. Also same in almost every single forum you run into, it is always the religious person on the defense. Not to mention the total amount of people that are against the one or two religious people. This is no mere debate, this is more of a everyone gang up on this person and throw all of the shots and don't give them any shots to question your motives.
Religion can cry me a river. The vast majority of the time, it's just a way to preserve a social hierarchy, with the elite benefitting the most and making all the rules.
Quote from: Savior20061 on April 22, 2010, 07:29:57 PM
Quote from: :D on April 18, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
From everything i've read on this topic, the only thing i can determine about this conversation is that this is a massive assault on religion. Also same in almost every single forum you run into, it is always the religious person on the defense. Not to mention the total amount of people that are against the one or two religious people. This is no mere debate, this is more of a everyone gang up on this person and throw all of the shots and don't give them any shots to question your motives.
Religion can cry me a river. The vast majority of the time, it's just a way to preserve a social hierarchy, with the elite benefitting the most and making all the rules.
there it is....
Quote from: Savior20061 on April 22, 2010, 07:29:57 PM
Quote from: :D on April 18, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
From everything i've read on this topic, the only thing i can determine about this conversation is that this is a massive assault on religion. Also same in almost every single forum you run into, it is always the religious person on the defense. Not to mention the total amount of people that are against the one or two religious people. This is no mere debate, this is more of a everyone gang up on this person and throw all of the shots and don't give them any shots to question your motives.
Religion can cry me a river. The vast majority of the time, it's just a way to preserve a social hierarchy, with the elite benefitting the most and making all the rules.
Umm, this would be irrelevant to his point. Cry ME a river, build a bridge, cross the bridge, and take your crying to the "elites". I wouldn't be one of those "elites" that chaps your ass.
I see your point on that. ;D
Quote from: Savior20061 on April 22, 2010, 07:29:57 PM
Quote from: :D on April 18, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
From everything i've read on this topic, the only thing i can determine about this conversation is that this is a massive assault on religion. Also same in almost every single forum you run into, it is always the religious person on the defense. Not to mention the total amount of people that are against the one or two religious people. This is no mere debate, this is more of a everyone gang up on this person and throw all of the shots and don't give them any shots to question your motives.
Religion can cry me a river. The vast majority of the time, it's just a way to preserve a social hierarchy, with the elite benefitting the most and making all the rules.
I am sorry for you that you have grown up around religions where this ^ happens, but truthfully you are just stereotyping because not all religions are like that.
Quote from: :D on April 25, 2010, 10:46:09 PM
I am sorry for you that you have grown up around religions where this ^ happens, but truthfully you are just stereotyping because not all religions are like that.
Name an actual religion where it doesn't happen.
Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Jehovah Witness', and 99% of the messianic current in religion are against what you're saying.
All I can see to prove your point is Buddhism and most of the old Pagan beliefs (all this New Age crap is... well, crap).
Pastafarianism!
Quote from: Ignas on April 25, 2010, 11:51:55 PM
Quote from: :D on April 25, 2010, 10:46:09 PM
I am sorry for you that you have grown up around religions where this ^ happens, but truthfully you are just stereotyping because not all religions are like that.
Name an actual religion where it doesn't happen.
Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Jehovah Witness', and 99% of the messianic current in religion are against what you're saying.
All I can see to prove your point is Buddhism and most of the old Pagan beliefs (all this New Age crap is... well, crap).
Not all Christianity does, Most types of Baptist, and some Lutheran and Methodist or at least at one point they were not. To be honest, yes most religions it is like that almost like a pyramid, but not all. So in that sense you can not hate all on all religions for being like this.
Thank god I'm an athiest.
I like the Hindu religion...
Yes they have their own pantheon of gods, but they also believe in - and can actively worship the gods of the other religions! . this includes God/Jehova/Allah (whatever you call him!), Buddah, and the various flavous of pagan gods if they so wish!
Basically thier ethos is that anyone can worship whoever they want and be respected - nobody is wrong in thier beliefs!
Perhaps if all religions were like this then we wouldn't have zealous nutcases blowing themselves to kingdom come (I guess they would take that remark literally!), trying to enforce thier beliefs on people who dont want them!
A good work friend of mine is hindu, he is just so relaxed and chilled about his religion, at christmas he will sing carols and go to church then go home and worship the hindu gods... how cool is that!
He must literally get presents 3 times a year! Eid, Hannukah, and Christmas! Sweet
I believe anyone can worship whoever they want.
And nowadays the people blowing themselves up aren't trying to force their beliefs. They are merely doing this in order to get in with the big man upstairs, selfish reasons.
Fuck em.
Quote from: FarleyFan on May 03, 2010, 12:05:24 AM
I believe anyone can worship whoever they want.
And nowadays the people blowing themselves up aren't trying to force their beliefs. They are merely doing this in order to get in with the big man upstairs, selfish reasons.
Fuck em.
Amen ;)
No fuck you
Quote from: Ion.67 on May 03, 2010, 02:17:51 AM
No fuck you
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy211%2Fandystaats%2FIndifferent_Smiley.png&hash=fedf3fba32876549be5a00c721cbdde5220ee536)
TOPIC REBOOT!!
I simply cannot let this thread die. It is too entertaining no matter what happens or what is said. Look in the post above. I still like the discussion.
I'll restart the discussion by saying it is not religion that creates religious wars or crusades, it is human pride. Pride that each group's way of thinking is the pinnacle, and everyone else's is mere crap.
Think of it this way. Take away religion, you still have ridiculous pride and arrogance in humanity. Take away ridiculous pride and arrogance and you have religion. In which scenario of removing a certain trait from humanity do you think would have the most wars?
The one where humanity keeps religion or the one where humanity keeps its arrogance? Which one would have more wars and animosity?
Don't you think people would find reasons to be superior to one another without religion? It's not like removing religion takes away arrogance because I have certainly seen arrogance and overly proud atheists as well as religious people.
It's a human nature thing. So long as there are men, there will be wars - right?
I worship the almighty CPU!
And you know what? Compared to other religions... My lord always does what I ask of it!
Quote from: MulleDK19 on July 31, 2010, 01:47:21 PM
I worship the almighty CPU!
And you know what? Compared to other religions... My lord always does what I ask of it!
And I bet there would be people out there willing go to war against people who did not worship the mighty CPU.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on July 31, 2010, 12:52:45 PM
TOPIC REBOOT!!
I simply cannot let this thread die. It is too entertaining no matter what happens or what is said. Look in the post above. I still like the discussion.
I'll restart the discussion by saying it is not religion that creates religious wars or crusades, it is human pride. Pride that each group's way of thinking is the pinnacle, and everyone else's is mere crap.
Think of it this way. Take away religion, you still have ridiculous pride and arrogance in humanity. Take away ridiculous pride and arrogance and you have religion. In which scenario of removing a certain trait from humanity do you think would have the most wars?
The one where humanity keeps religion or the one where humanity keeps its arrogance? Which one would have more wars and animosity?
Don't you think people would find reasons to be superior to one another without religion? It's not like removing religion takes away arrogance because I have certainly seen arrogance and overly proud atheists as well as religious people.
It's a human nature thing. So long as there are men, there will be wars - right?
Be religious if you want. But know you're basing it on absolutely no evidence and we therefore don't have to respect or obide by your "beliefs".
Blah blah blah, insert shit about religion dividing people. Blah, blah, you can't know humans would fight without religion, you're just projecting, blah blah.
Now retort with tired philosophy or non-points to defend religion.
*insert same old song and dance*
/thread
Quote from: Tidenburg on July 31, 2010, 02:55:26 PM
Be religious if you want. But know you're basing it on absolutely no evidence.
/thread
Not even evidence? It went from no proof to no evidence? Not even
EVIDENCE? I mean...wow.
What is interesting is that individuals can have deeply profound experiences that are both emotional and physical enough to be considered evidence for themselves.
I have had such experiences with meditation, where the body enters a suspended state and the mental process is altered in such a way that I have the proof that I need to believe in what some people call "god"
Ironically, scientifically it is impossible to prove the existence of the "mind"...but we know it exists. My father in-law whom is a neuro-scientist is currently researching the Vedas (5000 yr. old books) to scientifically explain the mind.
Quote from: goodkebab on July 31, 2010, 10:27:59 PM
What is interesting is that individuals can have deeply profound experiences that are both emotional and physical enough to be considered evidence for themselves.
I have had such experiences with meditation, where the body enters a suspended state and the mental process is altered in such a way that I have the proof that I need to believe in what some people call "god"
Ironically, scientifically it is impossible to prove the existence of the "mind"...but we know it exists. My father in-law whom is a neuro-scientist is currently researching the Vedas (5000 yr. old books) to scientifically explain the mind.
I don't think something that's mind altering requires God at all. The mind itself, like the universe, the eye and everything complex, is just an example of emergence.
I think humans just look for meaning where there is none. It hurts to think it all means nothing and you'll lose it all and be forgotten when you die.
Throughout history it is evident that when people lack understanding they turn to supernatural forces for explanations. Show a caveman a computer and to him you are God.
Quote from: Tidenburg on July 31, 2010, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on July 31, 2010, 12:52:45 PM
TOPIC REBOOT!!
I simply cannot let this thread die. It is too entertaining no matter what happens or what is said. Look in the post above. I still like the discussion.
I'll restart the discussion by saying it is not religion that creates religious wars or crusades, it is human pride. Pride that each group's way of thinking is the pinnacle, and everyone else's is mere crap.
Think of it this way. Take away religion, you still have ridiculous pride and arrogance in humanity. Take away ridiculous pride and arrogance and you have religion. In which scenario of removing a certain trait from humanity do you think would have the most wars?
The one where humanity keeps religion or the one where humanity keeps its arrogance? Which one would have more wars and animosity?
Don't you think people would find reasons to be superior to one another without religion? It's not like removing religion takes away arrogance because I have certainly seen arrogance and overly proud atheists as well as religious people.
It's a human nature thing. So long as there are men, there will be wars - right?
Be religious if you want. But know you're basing it on absolutely no evidence and we therefore don't have to respect or obide by your "beliefs".
Blah blah blah, insert shit about religion dividing people. Blah, blah, you can't know humans would fight without religion, you're just projecting, blah blah.
Now retort with tired philosophy or non-points to defend religion.
*insert same old song and dance*
/thread
You seem to be an example of someone who merely sees with his eyes. Your eyes just don't happen to show you that there is plenty of evidence of God. The evidence doesn't take you the same way it takes me. Don't act like I'm ignorant of the evidence.
And how was I saying you should obide by my beliefs? I was merely asking if you think humans would find other reasons to fight each other. To me it seems obvious they would, and yet people still blame religion for the cause of deaths of many people. From my perspective it's not religion's fault, it's the people's fault and they used religion to justify their actions - therefore giving religion a bad rap.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 01, 2010, 02:10:43 AM
You seem to be an example of someone who merely sees with his eyes. Your eyes just don't happen to show you that there is plenty of evidence of God. The evidence doesn't take you the same way it takes me. Don't act like I'm ignorant of the evidence.
And how was I saying you should obide by my beliefs? I was merely asking if you think humans would find other reasons to fight each other. To me it seems obvious they would, and yet people still blame religion for the cause of deaths of many people. From my perspective it's not religion's fault, it's the people's fault and they used religion to justify their actions - therefore giving religion a bad rap.
Sounds like your failing to sound deep? I dunno. But in case you didn't know, it's not evidence unless it can be observed/tested. So yes, seeing with eyes does sound good. Logically God doesn't make sense either, and I'm pretty sure my eyes aren't involved there.
I'm nihilistic (the proper, non-depressing kind) and philosophical so don't be so presumptuous and condescending as though believing in stuff without evidence gives you some kind of clairvoyance. I love thinking about shit larger than I can comprehend, it's what makes the universe so amazing, how we're so shit tiny and meaningless and yet we create our own meaning within societies, I just don't run my life by stuff like this.
Also, I don't care if religion is just one thing we vent our violence through, it's a well-used excuse. If it was something else instead, I'd just be targeting that as well. Are you saying we should just accept we're violent and not try to move on? All the religious wars were perfectly fine because they, or similar, would have happened anyway? Yeah, I'm not buying it.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 04:43:31 AM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 01, 2010, 02:10:43 AM
You seem to be an example of someone who merely sees with his eyes. Your eyes just don't happen to show you that there is plenty of evidence of God. The evidence doesn't take you the same way it takes me. Don't act like I'm ignorant of the evidence.
And how was I saying you should obide by my beliefs? I was merely asking if you think humans would find other reasons to fight each other. To me it seems obvious they would, and yet people still blame religion for the cause of deaths of many people. From my perspective it's not religion's fault, it's the people's fault and they used religion to justify their actions - therefore giving religion a bad rap.
Sounds like your failing to sound deep? I dunno. But in case you didn't know, it's not evidence unless it can be observed/tested. So yes, seeing with eyes does sound good. Logically God doesn't make sense either, and I'm pretty sure my eyes aren't involved there.
I'm nihilistic (the proper, non-depressing kind) and philosophical so don't be so presumptuous and condescending as though believing in stuff without evidence gives you some kind of clairvoyance. I love thinking about shit larger than I can comprehend, it's what makes the universe so amazing, how we're so shit tiny and meaningless and yet we create our own meaning within societies, I just don't run my life by stuff like this.
I said I see something different when I see the evidence than you do. I don't know if that sounds clairvoyant to me.
Also, I don't care if religion is just one thing we vent our violence through, it's a well-used excuse. If it was something else instead, I'd just be targeting that as well. Are you saying we should just accept we're violent and not try to move on? All the religious wars were perfectly fine because they, or similar, would have happened anyway? Yeah, I'm not buying it.
I'm not saying that we should accept we're violent. You just need to understand this. It's almost futile to try to suppress our bloodthirst urges unless we medicate/genetically engineer every human in the next generation to make us domestic animals.
It's useless to target the things we use as our excuses for war for 2 reason: It's futile to do that, and even it wasn't futile it would would have no effect on the amount of wars our world has. Eliminate religion, eliminate oil, eliminate boundaries between countries, eliminate all the things we use as excuses and...holy shit you have a collapse in civilization. Seems stupid to go down the list and take out each one if the list is as long as well... infinity?
People were going to war before religion, they still are going to war, and they will go to war after religion. The South park atheism episode comes to mind actually lmao
You don't think that if Hitler were an atheist there would have never been a WW2 do you?
Everything must have an opposite.
Up\down
Light\Dark
War\Peace
More that just being part of human nature, war is and will always be part of the universal balance.
QuotePeople were going to war before religion, they still are going to war, and they will go to war after religion. The South park atheism episode comes to mind actually lmao
You have no reason to think this. When humans didn't have religion, I highly doubt there was war, we wouldn't have been advanced enough to organise ourselves. As long as we have had written history, there's been religion, so you have no proof here at all.
That said, we WOULD fight over territory. That's just because humans are pretty much fucked anyway, when some places start becoming uninhabitable and shit starts getting scarce, obviously we're gonna fight. That's just survival though, not like all the past wars we've had. There would have been war, but no where near as much. Are you even aware how many wars were caused by religion at their roots?
Quote
You don't think that if Hitler were an atheist there would have never been a WW2 do you?
I think if religion didn't exist then a large portion of people wouldn't have been exterminated during that war. Religion divides people like that and if religion didn't exist he would certainly NOT have just randomly wiped out another group of people, and probably wouldn't have experimented on homo's as well because society would have advanced and accepted people faster if religion didn't exist.
Quote from: Jazz_117 on August 01, 2010, 02:30:23 PM
Everything must have an opposite.
Up\down
Light\Dark
War\Peace
More that just being part of human nature, war is and will always be part of the universal balance.
>>implying humans have any affect on the universe.
Yeah, war is a concept the living made, don't try and make out the universe has anything to do with something we made up. It doesn't. If all life died, the universe would be plenty fine without all the wars. And that "everything must have an opposite" is shit philosophy created by humans too.
The point I want you to actually respond to though (the war thing is getting tiresome):
My philosophy is that if there is a supreme creator of the universe, then he would not care about humans. We're soo small in comparison to the universe, it's silly to think the whole universe was made for us. If he DOES then I still think it's stupid to think he'd want us to worship him and that he'd care when we slept with people and who did it with, as long as I lived a generally good life and didn't negatively affect others, I'd be fine.
Then, that's assuming he actually made us an afterlife, I think he'd actually be quite pissed if he saw the way people limit their experiences in what could be their only life. Religion can be so restrictive, especially on stuff like sex, when really you should just have sex when you're ready and not make such a big deal out of it, enjoy life while you can. O_O Plus God created ALL the universe apparently, so why would he be so bound by HUMAN-created morals?
I live as though there is no God, I do what I enjoy and I want to get the most out of my life. No way in hell I'm risking doing shit all just for a potential next life. Besides, I live by what's acceptable to society but that's only coincidental. I mostly just make sure I'm not being especially detrimental to other people because they should get to enjoy their lives too.
If I get to heaven and God's like "oh you didn't obide by these specific rules", then fuck him. He's not worth of being called a God.
tldr: If there is a God AND an afterlife, then he's probably not like the one our religions imagine.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 03:36:41 PM
>>implying humans have any affect on the universe.
fuck are you embarrassing
Jazz to Tidenburg
God can't have created the universe because he's in it. That would be kinda like creating ones self.
The universe is the perfect definition of the word infinite: it does not have a middle, an edge, a beginning, or an end. If you give it just one of these things then it must have all of them and if it does then it can not be.
Something else interesting, time is existence, so the opposite of time is pure nothingness.
War is not something created by humans. Conflict is a part of any life. Look at Africa: Lions, Deer .ect
Your immune system fighting a sickness. It is all conflict.
The only difference between a lion and a man is they usually kill for different reasons, but they still kill. Human intelligence, or the lack there of, causes group A to want to destroy\dominate group B. Religion can (and often is) the course of this but if there was no such thing as religion men would find something else to kill himself over.
Maybe it's back to old good and evil. Another pair of opposites that has and will always be.
Without evil you cannot have good. There would be nothing to define right if there was no wrong, there simply must be both.
Life exists inside the universe so it must abide by the rules, take gravity and time for example, they effect everything, well conflict affects everything too, even rocks if you want to look at it that way. Anyways, the point is that every living thing everywhere in the Universe will have conflict. So yes, it IS a universal rule.
And if you think that humans are the only life in the universe then you're more naive then a virgin nun.
There is obviously someone out there, once upon a time, that created the human race, theoretically in his\their own image. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. Life didn't just happen, evolution is just another religion, albeit a crappy one.
Example: How did the first winged creature develop wings?
According to evolution, if a creatures has something on it\apart of it that doesn't help it then it's gotten rid of.
The first developments of limbs, wings, eyes, ears, fingers, tail .ect would have been completely useless and according to evolution the creature would loose these useless appendages.
In a round about way, evolution proves itself wrong.
This is of course only worth taking into consideration if it were at all possible for the chemical soup to ever accidentally create life anyway.
The only logical conclusion is that there is\was in fact a god\gods.
So you said that I thought humans have an effect on the universe. Well no, quite the opposite actually. The universe and time are like inseparable brothers (if you want to use an analogy) and time is essentially existence, and conflict is a part of life existing.
Also, look at a sunset or a beautiful woman (or man, whatever turns you on) and tell me that they're not perfectly designed pieces of art.
These are just my thoughts on the subject, no need to get bent out of shape over any of it, I'm not trying to tell you what to think.
Peace
Jazz, you clearly don't understand evolution or the development of the eyes and wings. It's not a religion you dolt, we have evidence and no supernatural leader.
In fact, I don't think you even properly understand most of the science you talk about. Good and evil are both perspectives, so saying that sounds like you're reading some kind of child's book for reference. Nothing is inherently wrong or right, only shit that humans deem wrong or right.
I never said anywhere humans are the only life so I don't know where you pulled that wonder out your ass from. That's a something normally reserved for religious people.
So, because you're so badly misinformed. Please go look up the evolution of the eye, EACH stage of its development has been found so far, each having their own use. Same for wings, which weren't used for flying just FYI until quite a bit later in development.
You have no proof of a creator. Evolution is accepted even by the Vatican. If we NEED a creator because we're so complex, then any creator of the universe will be even MORE complex than us so therefore he also requires something even more complex to create him. It's completely recursive.Please don't post any further if you're going to debate evolution though, I prefer religion debate in general. Most people who argue against evolution fail to ignore it's almost universally accepted amongst scientists and are awfully misinformed, just as you've shown.
Quote from: B-3A Misty Lady on August 01, 2010, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 03:36:41 PM
>>implying humans have any affect on the universe.
fuck are you embarrassing
You're a retard if you think the universe has any kind of bias to make war happen. It just exists. It's so big that we have no affect on it. We barely even affect our planet (the worst we'll do is make in uninhabitable), let alone the whole universe. Life makes war, and also I don't count a conflict as a war. They're different things. Conflict is inevitable, war isn't.
Evolutionists, Baptists, your all the same, you all think that you're right. And I'm not saying to listen to me, I'm 'suggesting' that you turn your brain on and think for yourself.
Good and evil is not a matter of prospective.
Thinking that it is a matter of prospective is the only thing that humans have thought up.
And this is so they can do whatever they please without having to account for it.
Think of your conscience. Everyone is programed with the basics of right and wrong from birth, we can just choose to ignore this and do what we want because we have a free will, or it may be because of how we were brought up. But look at history, many times men have changed their ways because they knew what they were doing was wrong.
You believe in evolution and then call me misinformed, LMAO. Charles Darwin decided not to publish his book because he knew that it was wrong. There is much truth in the idea, but the way it is perceived is incorrect.
And you don't need a supreme creator for your beliefs to be classed as a religion. All it takes is faith, and presto, you have a religion. And it must take faith to believe evolution without any proof that the big bang even happened... and if there's a hole somewhere there's a whole somewhere else.
Also, check this out: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090213161043.htm
...How dtf did that "just happen."
P.S. That Vatican are also led by a pedophile. So what they condone doesn't mean shit to me.
I certainly believe evolution happens, and that it did happen, but I have trouble believing that it began on its own.
QuotePlease don't post any further if you're going to debate evolution though, I prefer religion debate in general. Most people who argue against evolution fail to ignore it's almost universally accepted amongst scientists and are awfully misinformed, just as you've shown
Oh boy a concept universally accepted by scientists. How many million times have we had that happen? Studying evolution is like sliding down a slippery slide into a brick wall. It made so much sense so fast and then, bang, it didn't.
It's a feeling of mine that science is not all there is.
Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang. Adaption of life vs the beginning of life. The two are different concepts in science. Whereas in the Christian religion, the two concepts are merged to one, namely God creating everything and all of the versions of the species afterwards.
Well I was actually separating the two concepts. I was saying that adaption of life makes 100% sense, but the beginning does not.
Some of you say that all I'm doing is filling the unknown with God but I feel like I'm attempting to solve my own puzzle. Trying to give credit where I believe it is due.
Jazz_117, Darwin actually waited to publish his ideas for a different reason. At least from what I've read, he hesitated in fear of getting chastised/prosecuted for his unusual ideas. He only published them because someone was about to publish a theory similar to his, and he wanted all of his rightful glory. So now, he gets it.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 05:57:18 PM
You're a retard if you think the universe has any kind of bias to make war happen.
you're a retard if you use months old /v/ memes here
and you just did so i guess that means you're a retard then
fuckin' embarrassing
Quote from: B-3A Misty Lady on August 01, 2010, 11:22:54 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 05:57:18 PM
You're a retard if you think the universe has any kind of bias to make war happen.
you're a retard if you use months old /v/ memes here
and you just did so i guess that means you're a retard then
fuckin' embarrassing
Apart from the fact that it's not just limited to that board or even site any more. AND the fact you regularly see people do it in steampowered's and other forums.
Anywho, I thought you were actually responding to something than mattered, rather than getting your lil' panties hung up about fuck all.
Thread, continue.
oh good. you're not a retard from /v/ who keeps spouting memes months after they stopped being interesting, you're just someone who saw other retards do it so now you want to be like them.
wait that's not good at all that's actually worse
hey hey hey i know i'll be cool too
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mfw tidenburg is as dumb as fucking cronky
THERE I'M AS COOL AS 4CHAN YAYYYY
If you're saying I'm David Tennant, then that's all good with me. :)
The only retarded thing around here is people thinking they know everything.
I'll be completely honest and say that I don't know everything, I just find what makes sense to me and work from that.
One must think outside of the box. If you think inside the box then all you'll see are the big walls with writing on them, telling you what to think.
You can find concrete evidence to support any theory on the internet. Especially two theories that conflict with each other.
Anyways, at peace my friends, I'm not participating in this pointless debate any longer.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 05:57:18 PM
Most people who argue against evolution fail to ignore it's almost universally accepted amongst scientists and are awfully misinformed, just as you've shown.
I'm sorry Mr. Tidenburg, but you have been heavily misinformed. There are thousands, maybe even a million scientists who do not believe in evolution as the origin of life...and they have reasons for believing what they do. In fact, there are many scientists who switch from believing in evolution to a Creator. Now, I am not saying that there are more scientists who believe in creation than evolution, but there are plenty. Don't act as if it is universally accepted. Either way, I would not want to rely on scientists to try to explain things to me about how things happened. They really don't have much more knowledge than us other than looking at a rock and saying it is a billion years old. I truly believe the universe is less than 20,000 years old, there is no reason for me to think otherwise. Look at everything for yourself rather than trusting some geniuses with theories. If you come up with the conclusion that everything just happened from nothing, then fine.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 01, 2010, 03:56:32 PM
I live as though there is no God, I do what I enjoy and I want to get the most out of my life. No way in hell I'm risking doing shit all just for a potential next life. Besides, I live by what's acceptable to society but that's only coincidental. I mostly just make sure I'm not being especially detrimental to other people because they should get to enjoy their lives too.
If I get to heaven and God's like "oh you didn't obide by these specific rules", then fuck him. He's not worth of being called a God.
tldr: If there is a God AND an afterlife, then he's probably not like the one our religions imagine.
Getting the most out of your life means living as though there is no God? Hmm... So if you believe in God then your life can't be any fun?
Quoteof your life means living as though there is no God? Hmm... So if you believe in God then your life can't be any fun?
Nope, just saying. It would make no difference if I believe in him or not. Most religions' rules don't make sense for a universal creator to want us to follow. In other words, if I believed in him or not, the way I live my life wouldn't change. I live and do what makes me happy while trying not to hurt other people while doing so, so even if a God did exist I'd hope he'd see that I'm still a good person and not actually get hung up on me having sex before marriage, not going to worship him, etc.
I have no quarrel with people like one of my friends who believes in a God but follow "him" in his own way.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 02, 2010, 05:57:46 AM
maybe even a million scientists who do not believe in evolution as the origin of life...
maybe because nobody claims it's the origin of life? D'oh. TWO concepts. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis (origin of life) vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution (evolution)
Quote from: frvge on August 02, 2010, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 02, 2010, 05:57:46 AM
maybe even a million scientists who do not believe in evolution as the origin of life...
maybe because nobody claims it's the origin of life? D'oh. TWO concepts. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis (origin of life) vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution (evolution)
Oops sorry perhaps I should have read my quote more carefully. Yes, they are two different concepts that I mixed up in the wrong spot. My head hurts really bad after reading the abiogenesis page because I cannot keep all of the hypothesis straight anymore. I guess it is considered a study, so it makes some sense that they have a lot of ideas because there isn't any real answer found.
It is still interesting to see what people think though.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 02, 2010, 06:23:12 AM
Quoteof your life means living as though there is no God? Hmm... So if you believe in God then your life can't be any fun?
Nope, just saying. It would make no difference if I believe in him or not. Most religions' rules don't make sense for a universal creator to want us to follow. In other words, if I believed in him or not, the way I live my life wouldn't change. I live and do what makes me happy while trying not to hurt other people while doing so, so even if a God did exist I'd hope he'd see that I'm still a good person and not actually get hung up on me having sex before marriage, not going to worship him, etc.
I have no quarrel with people like one of my friends who believes in a God but follow "him" in his own way.
Obviously these "rules" were made to be broken, because Christianity is mostly a religion about self redemption and forgiveness. The God I believe in is very forgiving but only if you genuinely regret your actions.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 02, 2010, 05:57:46 AM
maybe even a million scientists who do not believe in evolution as the origin of life...
What a random number you pulled out of your ass. Evolution is acknowledged as fact by pretty much all Biologists... which is the scientific field that matters.
Anyway, I still don't see why Evolution and the belief in God has to be mutually exclusive. Science could be the language of god. When I think of an all perfect being with a 'plan.' I don't think of someone who just magically made us appear 10,000 years ago. I think of someone who creates a universe with laws, laws that work by themselves to, over billions of years, craft a reality that has structure and that could be understood by those willing to learn his 'language'.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 03, 2010, 09:43:48 PM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 02, 2010, 05:57:46 AM
maybe even a million scientists who do not believe in evolution as the origin of life...
What a random number you pulled out of your ass. Evolution is acknowledged as fact by pretty much all Biologists... which is the scientific field that matters.
Anyway, I still don't see why Evolution and the belief in God has to be mutually exclusive. Science could be the language of god. When I think of an all perfect being with a 'plan.' I don't think of someone who just magically made us appear 10,000 years ago. I think of someone who creates a universe with laws, laws that work by themselves to, over billions of years, craft a reality that has structure and that could be understood by those willing to learn his 'language'.
Exactly. God wouldn't work with magic dust and form us from clay especially if he was actually trying to test our faith in him. God would have to leave evidence of a completely "natural" creation of humans in order to create conflict.
It's my belief that God initiated the creation of the universe and before doing this he applied laws. God used evolution to slowly create humans. He probably pities that we try to deduce our origins through our petty ways of science.
The Big Bang? Think of that as the initiation, the sudden creation. God made the meatloaf, and stuck a grenade inside - which made a big meaty mess we call the universe. :D
Quote from: Zedblade on August 03, 2010, 09:43:48 PM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 02, 2010, 05:57:46 AM
maybe even a million scientists who do not believe in evolution as the origin of life...
What a random number you pulled out of your ass. Evolution is acknowledged as fact by pretty much all Biologists... which is the scientific field that matters.
Anyway, I still don't see why Evolution and the belief in God has to be mutually exclusive. Science could be the language of god. When I think of an all perfect being with a 'plan.' I don't think of someone who just magically made us appear 10,000 years ago. I think of someone who creates a universe with laws, laws that work by themselves to, over billions of years, craft a reality that has order and that could be understood by those willing to learn his 'language'.
Ok Ok ok. So it is an exaggeration. And I used to word "maybe" to indicate that I wasn't confident in the statement, it was more of a number to emphasize something. Relax. But the point is- there are plenty of scientists who believe in creation. And as I said before, there are more who believe in evolution than creation. So in a sense, I am in agreement, just not to the same extent. Why does everybody have to go on an attacking spree?
Quote from: Zedblade on August 03, 2010, 09:43:48 PM
Anyway, I still don't see why Evolution and the belief in God has to be mutually exclusive.
You are right here. For instance, if someone were to believe in God, most would agree that he did not create every kind of bird, dog, cat, etc. Species arise through alterations. And laws are also an innate part of our universe that work by themselves, I just don't believes that the laws themselves worked over time to create our universe. There we have similiarities.
In order for any people to have discussions with topics such as this, they have to first understand exactly what each other is thinking so they are on the same page. ;) Then work from there.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 03, 2010, 10:12:19 PM
The Big Bang? Think of that as the initiation, the sudden creation. God made the meatloaf, and stuck a grenade inside - which made a big meaty mess we call the universe. :D
Haha
I'm not attacking you curdy, but pulling numbers out of thin air isn't an effective way to debate.
I would know.
I'm a masterdebater
...wow that was lame...
Quote from: Zedblade on August 03, 2010, 10:31:44 PM
I'm not attacking you curdy, but pulling numbers out of thin air isn't an effective way to debate.
I would know.
I'm a masterdebater
...wow that was lame...
;D I understand this. Rather than getting numbers out of the air, I could find at least 1,000 scientists in a list for you if you wanted. But I won't worry about it anymore. And it was not part of a debate, it was more of a statement so people realize that there are indeed scientists who differ on things.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 03, 2010, 10:45:02 PM
Quote from: Zedblade on August 03, 2010, 10:31:44 PM
I'm not attacking you curdy, but pulling numbers out of thin air isn't an effective way to debate.
I would know.
I'm a masterdebater
...wow that was lame...
;D I understand this. Rather than getting numbers out of the air, I could find at least 1,000 scientists in a list for you if you wanted. But I won't worry about it anymore. And it was not part of a debate, it was more of a statement so people realize that there are indeed scientists who differ on things.
A thousand is nothing compared to the amount of biologists there probably are. :/
Also, why not the big bang? It sounds like the last bastion for religion really. The universe is too complex to have just spontaneously been created, right? But any being that created it would have to be more complex than the universe and therefore also requires a creator (from your previous logic). It's recursive.
The big bang is what I'm going with now but I'm not really versed on the subject, I just know it's what's agreed upon by scientists and I know that if they're wrong, they will admit it and change the theory. Unlike the other option I could choose, if scientists found out (somehow) that there was undoubtedly a God, they would accept the fact that the other side is right.
To paraphrase Bones (a show apparently only I watch), even if I cannot see the cause for an effect, I can take comfort in the fact that all around me I see evidence that for every effect there is a rational cause and explanation; So even if the cause is something I cannot see, everything I can all leads me to believe that it will be rational when we find it. Faith in the facts ;D
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 04, 2010, 12:22:28 AM
Also, why not the big bang? It sounds like the last bastion for religion really. The universe is too complex to have just spontaneously been created, right? But any being that created it would have to be more complex than the universe and therefore also requires a creator (from your previous logic). It's recursive.
The big bang is what I'm going with now but I'm not really versed on the subject, I just know it's what's agreed upon by scientists and I know that if they're wrong, they will admit it and change the theory. Unlike the other option I could choose, if scientists found out (somehow) that there was undoubtedly a God, they would accept the fact that the other side is right.
To paraphrase Bones (a show apparently only I watch), even if I cannot see the cause for an effect, I can take comfort in the fact that all around me I see evidence that for every effect there is a rational cause and explanation; So even if the cause is something I cannot see, everything I can all leads me to believe that it will be rational when we find it. Faith in the facts ;D
Well, here is my response- It is difficult for me to give an exact answer to this. The best thing I can give you is a lengthy article written by a physicist Steven Ball, P.h.D. Before you grow in skepticism, let me explain the article. A "Christian" physicist takes the big bang theory along with modern science and compares it with the biblical account of creation. Chapter 1 deals with the big bang controversy in general. In chapter 2, he explains the growing support and evidence for the big bang theory due to modern scientific discoveries. Chapter 3 deals with potential problems with the theory, and how they have been resolved. The final chapter points out the biblical basis for the big bang and how they could possibly agree. He is very balanced in his approach to the situation. As far as I can tell, he believes in both. I know it is a very long piece that you probably would not want to read entirely. But if you have curiosity, I would highly recommend it.
http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/lattery/id/_docs/BigBang.pdf (http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/lattery/id/_docs/BigBang.pdf)
@Curdy, yeah. I get how they could co-incide.
My point being, once we know how it begun, it's kind of pointless to add something which we DON'T know how it was created (or whether it even exists) into the equation, God.
Sure, they might match up, but there is no science in the bible, there's a division of nearly two thousand years between modern science and the bible being written. Saying God did it would be fine, but there would be absolutely no evidence. I'd hope this would make religion become more of a personal thing, the debates would surely be cut down.
My point still is though, a being that created something like our universe would not be one who cares greatly about all the little rules some religions have. Even if he was proven to exist, my lifestyle would not change.
Can't disprove Big Bang or God creating the universe. Both options are viable. What comes after that is more interesting.
Quote from: frvge on August 04, 2010, 07:48:24 PM
Can't disprove Big Bang or God creating the universe. Both options are viable. What comes after that is more interesting.
Lmao that sounded like Mordin from Mass effect 2. ;D
I'm a brilliant scientist too. A bit less on the Spec-Ops tho :(
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Quote from: Tidenburg on August 04, 2010, 06:31:27 PM
Sure, they might match up, but there is no science in the bible
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)
Some interesting points in that link Curdy.
Science has actually wound up proving many Biblical events. Ironically, many scientific studies show that the Bible is surprisingly reliable as a record of historical events. The more they prove these stories true, the more it makes sense. There have been people described in the Bible that historians widely agreed to be non existent, and later found out to be real after all.
The most interesting study to me has to be the one of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible described the destroyer of the city as "a pillar of fire". It was recently proved to be a huge meteor that came crashing right into where the city supposedly was. A meteor crashing into your city would probably look something like a pillar of fire, right?
Now I know that just because science has proved some of these stories to be true, or at least semi-true, it doesn't mean that they were on the ridiculously epic scale that the current Bible has ultimately described them in. It doesn't mean that everything described in the Bible is completely true either. After countless translations and iterations there are bound to be many exaggerations or even possibly some errors found in the text.
But in the end everything I just said is unimportant because that's not what the Bible is about. It's interesting to say the least but I don't think we should be picking apart the Bible word for word letter for letter because that would be missing the point. The Bible isn't supposed to be a history book, despite the surprising accuracy.
There are plenty of inaccuracies and contradictions in the bible, an there are quite a few things proven to be wrong in the bible by science. Most of the things listed in that link Curdy posted can be interpreted to mean any number of things, in fact most of those things are basic observations anyone back then could come up with. Some historical events are even wrong, which you would think would be the easiest part to get right.
http://www.coppit.org/god/contradictions.php
http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/minor-inaccuracies-and-contradictions-within-the-holy-bible/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1zKesU
If the bible was the true work of a true god, it would be written in a way that was impossible to be misinterpreted, it would get everything perfectly right in a clear language and wouldn't cause a division that spawns thousands of different sub-religions.
Just for fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qmcOG-na4E&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y&feature=related
@Zed, you seem to be missing the point. 10 billion prayers ignored and one apparently answered is all the proof a lot of people need. Sure SOME things may be wrong, BUT LOOK! THIS THING HERE WAS RIGHT! (If you look at it a certain way, wearing this certain thing on this day of the week)
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 10:00:23 AM
The most interesting study to me has to be the one of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible described the destroyer of the city as "a pillar of fire". It was recently proved to be a huge meteor that came crashing right into where the city supposedly was. A meteor crashing into your city would probably look something like a pillar of fire, right?
I saw that one on the science channel. They also had one about the parting of the red sea. Cool stuff.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
There are plenty of inaccuracies and contradictions in the bible, an there are quite a few things proven to be wrong in the bible by science. Most of the things listed in that link Curdy posted can be interpreted to mean any number of things, in fact most of those things are basic observations anyone back then could come up with. Some historical events are even wrong, which you would think would be the easiest part to get right.
http://www.coppit.org/god/contradictions.php
http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/minor-inaccuracies-and-contradictions-within-the-holy-bible/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1zKesU
If the bible was the true work of a true god, it would be written in a way that was impossible to be misinterpreted, it would get everything perfectly right in a clear language and wouldn't cause a division that spawns thousands of different sub-religions.
I appreciate this post. I will have my response by the end of the day- I have to work and then go buy some more supplies for fixing the red ring of death first. ;) Check back later.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 05, 2010, 06:56:18 PM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 10:00:23 AM
The most interesting study to me has to be the one of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible described the destroyer of the city as "a pillar of fire". It was recently proved to be a huge meteor that came crashing right into where the city supposedly was. A meteor crashing into your city would probably look something like a pillar of fire, right?
I saw that one on the science channel. They also had one about the parting of the red sea. Cool stuff.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
There are plenty of inaccuracies and contradictions in the bible, an there are quite a few things proven to be wrong in the bible by science. Most of the things listed in that link Curdy posted can be interpreted to mean any number of things, in fact most of those things are basic observations anyone back then could come up with. Some historical events are even wrong, which you would think would be the easiest part to get right.
http://www.coppit.org/god/contradictions.php
http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/minor-inaccuracies-and-contradictions-within-the-holy-bible/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1zKesU
If the bible was the true work of a true god, it would be written in a way that was impossible to be misinterpreted, it would get everything perfectly right in a clear language and wouldn't cause a division that spawns thousands of different sub-religions.
I appreciate this post. I will have my response by the end of the day- I have to work and then go buy some more supplies for fixing the red ring of death first. ;) Check back later.
Make sure you watch all of the videos. :D I'm curious of your reaction to them.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
@Zed, you seem to be missing the point. 10 billion prayers ignored and one apparently answered is all the proof a lot of people need. Sure SOME things may be wrong, BUT LOOK! THIS THING HERE WAS RIGHT! (If you look at it a certain way, wearing this certain thing on this day of the week)
What is it with people getting hung up on the whole prayers thing? It just seems to be a non point.
My point was that there is a lot of truth in the Bible. Some people get too worked up over some innacuracies or interpretations that they disregard the book as a whole. And that to me is a shame.
If God did create the Bible, I don't see why it would have to impossible to be misinterpreted. Like I've been saying, if God made a science book and said here's all the facts I am God believe me because I just proved it to you, where's the FAITH in that exactly? God would want more than people believing in him just because it's a proven fact and you'd be an idiot to believe that God did not exist. He wants people to see him without their eyes, so to speak.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
10 billion prayers ignored and one apparently answered
Just because they are not always a "yes" does not mean they aren't answered...
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
There are plenty of inaccuracies and contradictions in the bible. Most of the things listed in that link Curdy posted can be interpreted to mean any number of things. Some historical events are even wrong, which you would think would be the easiest part to get right.
I don't understand your logic here. First off, you say that the things in my link can be interpreted to mean any number of things. Then, you turn right back around and say the bible has clear contradictions. I don't get it. You can't try to use the same tool against something else and then use the opposite idea to support your own.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
an there are quite a few things proven to be wrong in the bible by science
Such as?
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
http://www.coppit.org/god/contradictions.php
Internal Contradiction Responses:
1.http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/why-are-there-different-genealogies-jesus-matthew-1-and-luke-3 (http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/why-are-there-different-genealogies-jesus-matthew-1-and-luke-3)
2.Acts 1:18 describes what occurred after Judas hanged himself in Matthew 27:5. His body began to decay as it hung from the rope. Eventually, his corpse fell, and ââ,¬Å"burst asunderââ,¬Â when it hit the groundââ,¬â€he literally burst apart.
3.http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/who-incited-david-count-fighting-men-israel-god-or-satan (http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/who-incited-david-count-fighting-men-israel-god-or-satan)
4.This deals with the topic of capital punishment. http://www.tektonics.org/af/cappun.html (http://www.tektonics.org/af/cappun.html)
5.http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/566 (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/566)
6.http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17 (http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17) click the link near the 5th bullet point from the bottom
7.finish the second quote (1 Corinthians 4:5)ââ,¬Â¦but not before the appointed time
8.Are there 250 officers, or 550, per 2 Chr. 8:10? A reasonable solution that is suggested by the fact that the totals of men coincide at 3850 is that the 550 "elite" foremen in 1 Kings 9:23 include the 250 "elite" foremen of 2 Chr 8:10. This is essentially the thesis advanced by Keil and Delitzsch. OR There may have been a copying error at some point with regard to this text. We do not affirm the infallibility of all manuscripts and copies of the biblical documents, but only of the originals.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/minor-inaccuracies-and-contradictions-within-the-holy-bible/
1. Does God tempt man? http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/d02contradictions/james1v13genesis22v1.html (http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/d02contradictions/james1v13genesis22v1.html)
ââ,¬Â¦I could keep going if you would like, but you get the ideaââ,¬Â¦
You have to look at the entire context of verses rather than just poking out one line here and there.
I will look at the videos some other day...I need a break :)
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 10:38:28 PM
If God did create the Bible, I don't see why it would have to impossible to be misinterpreted. Like I've been saying, if God made a science book and said here's all the facts I am God believe me because I just proved it to you, where's the FAITH in that exactly? God would want more than people believing in him just because it's a proven fact and you'd be an idiot to believe that God did not exist. He wants people to see him without their eyes, so to speak.
:)
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 10:38:28 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
@Zed, you seem to be missing the point. 10 billion prayers ignored and one apparently answered is all the proof a lot of people need. Sure SOME things may be wrong, BUT LOOK! THIS THING HERE WAS RIGHT! (If you look at it a certain way, wearing this certain thing on this day of the week)
What is it with people getting hung up on the whole prayers thing? It just seems to be a non point.
How is the one and only way to talk to your god a non point? Prayer is one of the foundations of most religions, it's extremely important and should be discussed.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
My point was that there is a lot of truth in the Bible. Some people get too worked up over some innacuracies or interpretations that they disregard the book as a whole. And that to me is a shame.
There are truths in the bible, I don't deny that, but there are just as much contradictions and inaccuracies. Not to mention the bible is a morally horrible book, consistently demanding the death of people for petty, illogical reasons and condoning things like slavery and the oppression of women. My question is why do you ignore the awful, repulsive things the bible says, the inaccuracies and contradictions, but latch onto the rest? You are doing the exact thing you are accusing others of doing, just the other way around.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
If God did create the Bible, I don't see why it would have to impossible to be misinterpreted. Like I've been saying, if God made a science book and said here's all the facts I am God believe me because I just proved it to you, where's the FAITH in that exactly? God would want more than people believing in him just because it's a proven fact and you'd be an idiot to believe that God did not exist. He wants people to see him without their eyes, so to speak.
The bible doesn't need to prove god exists, but you would think if god wanted the bible to be the one and only way to learn about him, to gain faith in him through the words he has written, he would plan out a way that would not allow men to pervert it and bring shame to his name.
There are several occasions in the bible where God as proven that he exists to hundreds of people, such as Jesus proving his resurrection. Why was it okay then, but not now to prove his existence? I've heard some people say god proving himself would remove free will. If god is real and the bible is literally correct, I'm sorry, we do not have free will. God's idea of free will is actually more like an ultimatum. Believe in me or spend eternity in hell.
Even if I knew without a doubt God existed, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll worship him by default. I've actually read the bible (unlike a lot of Christians, which is weird) and it' doesn't describe an all loving, forgiving and caring god. It describes and angry, unjust, egotistical tyrant who lies, murders people by the millions and sends people to infinite suffering and pain for a finite life of unbelieving.
Fuck that.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 05, 2010, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
10 billion prayers ignored and one apparently answered
Just because they are not always a "yes" does not mean they aren't answered...
If god truly answered prayers on a regular basis for his believers like the bible explicitly says he would, there would be clear statistical evidence. However, studies have show that praying to god or to allah, zeus, or any number of gods shows the same results across the board for all of those religions, meaning the same amount of answered and unanswered prayers are more or less the same for all of them.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 05, 2010, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
There are plenty of inaccuracies and contradictions in the bible. Most of the things listed in that link Curdy posted can be interpreted to mean any number of things. Some historical events are even wrong, which you would think would be the easiest part to get right.
I don't understand your logic here. First off, you say that the things in my link can be interpreted to mean any number of things. Then, you turn right back around and say the bible has clear contradictions. I don't get it. You can't try to use the same tool against something else and then use the opposite idea to support your own.
You're right, however In this case I was specifically referring to the science in the bible link you posted. Most of the passages there could be interpreted to mean anything. For example.
Quote
The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
The original meaning could have been to convey that the earth was flat... like a circle. It clearly says circle, why would you think it meant sphere? Oh because we know it's a sphere now, so lets just retrofit the verse to fit our current way of thinking.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 05, 2010, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
an there are quite a few things proven to be wrong in the bible by science
Such as?
I've provided links already, but an example is that the bible says disease is caused by demons, that the earth is a flat circle and that it is unmoving and has 'corners.'
Sure any of this stuff could be changed due to interpretation... but how can people cherry pick what to interpret to fit current views and what to take literally. "Oh yes the bible meant the earth was round, not a circle. But I hate homos and the bible says they are an abomination, so fucking kill them!" WTF.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 05, 2010, 10:53:40 PM
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
http://www.coppit.org/god/contradictions.php
Internal Contradiction Responses:
1.http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/why-are-there-different-genealogies-jesus-matthew-1-and-luke-3 (http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/why-are-there-different-genealogies-jesus-matthew-1-and-luke-3)
2.Acts 1:18 describes what occurred after Judas hanged himself in Matthew 27:5. His body began to decay as it hung from the rope. Eventually, his corpse fell, and ââ,¬Å"burst asunderââ,¬Â when it hit the groundââ,¬â€he literally burst apart.
3.http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/who-incited-david-count-fighting-men-israel-god-or-satan (http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/who-incited-david-count-fighting-men-israel-god-or-satan)
4.This deals with the topic of capital punishment. http://www.tektonics.org/af/cappun.html (http://www.tektonics.org/af/cappun.html)
5.http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/566 (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/566)
6.http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17 (http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17) click the link near the 5th bullet point from the bottom
7.finish the second quote (1 Corinthians 4:5)ââ,¬Â¦but not before the appointed time
8.Are there 250 officers, or 550, per 2 Chr. 8:10? A reasonable solution that is suggested by the fact that the totals of men coincide at 3850 is that the 550 "elite" foremen in 1 Kings 9:23 include the 250 "elite" foremen of 2 Chr 8:10. This is essentially the thesis advanced by Keil and Delitzsch. OR There may have been a copying error at some point with regard to this text. We do not affirm the infallibility of all manuscripts and copies of the biblical documents, but only of the originals.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
http://davidgmcafee.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/minor-inaccuracies-and-contradictions-within-the-holy-bible/
1. Does God tempt man? http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/d02contradictions/james1v13genesis22v1.html (http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/d02contradictions/james1v13genesis22v1.html)
ââ,¬Â¦I could keep going if you would like, but you get the ideaââ,¬Â¦
You have to look at the entire context of verses rather than just poking out one line here and there.
I will look at the videos some other day...I need a break :)
Maybe you are right about those things. But It's depends on how you interpret them :P
However the biggest contradiction is still true and it can't be misinterpreted or mistranslated. God says many times and even writes on tablets that thou shall not kill, that you should forgive and do unto others as you want them to do unto you... yet throughout the bible he kills and destroys entire cities, calls for the death of people just because they worked on the sabbath, are gay, had sex before marriage etc. That my friend is the biggest contradiction of them all.
Faith/belief is a lack of certainty and scientifically-valid evidence in a subject.
Either you 'know' there's a God, or you don't. But you don't have 'faith', because that has an element of doubt in it.
I know fairies exist vs I belief in fairies. What sounds more... certain? IMO the former.
Now you can say: "I know God exists", which leads back to the question of why religion is then commonly called "faith" and where the proof is of your "knowing". Knowing doesn't exist without proof that's at least verifiable (repeatable would be even better).
Also, the fact that your demographics dictate the religion makes the whole religion thing less ... uh... universal. From the nature gods to Hindu and Buddhists to the sungods (among others Christian, Islamic and Jewish and Egyptian), and from there to Greek/Latin/Nordic gods. Literally tens of thousands of gods. You'd say there'd be an earthquake or big flood everyday... all those earth/water gods are getting bored.
Aka, while it's possible, it's so highly unlikely, that I have concluded that there's no God, and thus no God created the 'Big Bang' or w/e. What created that? I don't know. I don't have evidence and neither does any religion (just because it's written doesn't make it true).
I've gotta say, keeping track of prayers answered in a scientific test is one of the dumbest things I've heard of. So, did all the subjects of the test ask God for 20 bucks and a 6 pack and if they didn't get it on their doorstep the next morning it means that God doesn't answer their prayers?
I just don't see any possible way to test it.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 06, 2010, 12:35:52 AM
I've gotta say, keeping track of prayers answered in a scientific test is one of the dumbest things I've heard of. So, did all the subjects of the test ask God for 20 bucks and a 6 pack and if they didn't get it on their doorstep the next morning it means that God doesn't answer their prayers?
I just don't see any possible way to test it.
Oh so because you can't see any possible way to test it, there must not be any possible way at all.
Even if there was no way whatsoever to 'test' it in some sort of study, that still doesn't negate why there is no religious group with obvious and unmistakable accounts of more prayers answered. After all, the bible says that god WILL answer our prayers.
I said I don't see any possible way to test it, but I would be interested if you could think of a way.
How many prayers do you think God would answer knowing it's for a test? Even if you don't believe in God, do you really think God would like being tested by his own creations? I just don't see it happening.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 06, 2010, 12:49:47 AM
I said I don't see any possible way to test it, but I would be interested if you could think of a way.
How many prayers do you think God would answer knowing it's for a test? Even if you don't believe in God, do you really think God would like being tested by his own creations? I just don't see it happening.
Here is a way I thought of that removes the 'God saying no because it's a test' variable and is something I thought of in like 5 seconds.
Ask a group of 500 christions their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 muslims their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 athiests their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 mormans their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 _______ their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Compare. Like I've said many times, because the bible specifically states that God PROMISED to answer our prayers, Christians should have clear and unmistakable higher percentage of answered prayers.
"rate of answered and unanswered prayers"
I don't really think you understand how praying works (no offense intended). Prayer is a way to personally connect with God. God doesn't have a predefined rate to auto-grant everyone's wishes like on Bruce Almighty or something. God's not a fairy godfather that goes around granting everyone's wishes. To try and find an exact rate of answered prayers is just a waste of time because the very definition of "answered prayers" varies. It varies a lot. Not only does that vary, but what people pray for varies. That also varies a ton.
With all this variation it's literally impossible to get a good read unless you ask people what to pray for and what to believe is an answered prayer. That would bring back that variable of "God saying no" as you put it. Not to mention, all of this completely misses the point of praying.
*4000 posts - guess you guys will finally think i'm koo. I worked my ass off to get Rambo's approval and I may finally get it (crosses fingers)*
:D
It still doesn't look like you understand my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying, I guess I'm not articulate enough to explain it any better, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I still would like to hear some of your thoughts about my post from the last page, which was a direct response to you.
You would think with the thousands if not millions of prayers going out each day that they would make a difference, right? Oh snap.
If God has a divine plan, prayers cannot possibly work.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 06, 2010, 12:57:25 AM
Here is a way I thought of that removes the 'God saying no because it's a test' variable and is something I thought of in like 5 seconds.
Ask a group of 500 christions their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 muslims their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 athiests their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 mormans their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Ask a group of 500 _______ their rate of answered and unanswered prayers,
Compare. Like I've said many times, because the bible specifically states that God PROMISED to answer our prayers, Christians should have clear and unmistakable higher percentage of answered prayers.
Answer is the key word. Answers can mean yes, no, or wait.
Hey FarleyFan I have an idea here. Let's make our own religion called the toilet religion. Then we are going to pray to the almighty toilet before we poop that we won't leave any skid marks around the bowl after we flush. Then, we will see if our prayers are answered or not. So far my prayers have been answered for a few days. Let's report our information to further this study so people will realize the toilet religion has the most answered prayers.
Seriously, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my entire life. I don't even think I have to explain why.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 06, 2010, 12:06:51 AM
Quote
The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
The original meaning could have been to convey that the earth was flat... like a circle. It clearly says circle, why would you think it meant sphere? Oh because we know it's a sphere now, so lets just retrofit the verse to fit our current way of thinking.
I've provided links already, but an example is that the bible says disease is caused by demons, that the earth is a flat circle and that it is unmoving and has 'corners.'
Sure any of this stuff could be changed due to interpretation... but how can people cherry pick what to interpret to fit current views and what to take literally.
There are many ways in which God could have said corner. Any of the following Hebrew words could have been used:
Pinoh is used in reference to the cornerstone.
Paioh means ââ,¬Å"a geometric cornerââ,¬Â
Ziovyoh means ââ,¬Å"right angleââ,¬Â or ââ,¬Å"cornerââ,¬Â
Krnouth refers to a projecting corner.
Paamouth - If the Lord wanted to convey the idea of a square, four-cornered earth, the Hebrew word paamouth could have been used. Paamouth means square.
Instead, God selected the word kanaph, conveying the idea of extremity.
It is doubtful that any religious Jew would ever misunderstand the true meaning of kanaph.
You need to realize this was originally written in Hebrew, not English. Either way, the passage still makes sense if you are in the correct frame of reference.
For the demons, hopefully I am thinking about the same topic you are here.
http://www.tbm.org/role_of_demons_and_sickness_by_t.htm (http://www.tbm.org/role_of_demons_and_sickness_by_t.htm)
You say all of this can be changed due to interpretation and cherry picking to fit our views, but it seems more like you are the one trying to cherry pick so it goes against our view because it is not scientific. Give me a break.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 06, 2010, 12:06:51 AM
However the biggest contradiction is still true and it can't be misinterpreted or mistranslated. God says many times and even writes on tablets that thou shall not kill, that you should forgive and do unto others as you want them to do unto you... yet throughout the bible he kills and destroys. That my friend is the biggest contradiction of them all.
Now this, THIS, my friend, is actually something worth talking about. :) More later today before I leave! (I will be gone this whole weekend for a family reunion, and my grandparents don't have a router :()
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 06, 2010, 01:47:53 PM
If God has a divine plan, prayers cannot possibly work.
You are missing the point. The goal is not: "Oh, I have this need (or want) so I think I will just shout out a prayer to God and hope it works.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 06, 2010, 06:56:58 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 06, 2010, 01:47:53 PM
If God has a divine plan, prayers cannot possibly work.
You are missing the point. The goal is not: "Oh, I have this need (or want) so I think I will just shout out a prayer to God and hope it works.
According to Jesus it is, and I think I'll take his word other yours and whoever keeps changing the religions to fit new discovery. :3
Quote from: Zedblade on August 06, 2010, 12:06:51 AM
However the biggest contradiction is still true and it can't be misinterpreted or mistranslated. God says many times and even writes on tablets that thou shall not kill, that you should forgive and do unto others as you want them to do unto you... yet throughout the bible he kills and destroys. That my friend is the biggest contradiction of them all.
First, here is a reply to the video about the amputees. It also applies to some of the others because it is the exact same concept. Please read the entire thing. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/01/30/feedback-god-heal-amputees (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/01/30/feedback-god-heal-amputees)
Now, on to the next topic. This one deals with the wrath of God. And, well, quite frankly, it is a touchy subject most Christians donââ,¬â,,¢t like to talk about- some donââ,¬â,,¢t even want to admit. But the fact of the matter is that itââ,¬â,,¢s true. God gets angry, and sometimes He even kills. Not only has He killed a person, or a family, but an entire city. I have no problem admitting this.
However, most of the controversy results as a misunderstanding of who God actually is. It can get rather lengthy, so here is a link to help me explain. Please read it. (I know it can get long). http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/45-9.htm (http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/45-9.htm)
One final note:
I am not here to try to force you into certain beliefs. Nor do I have any disrespect for atheists. Itââ,¬â,,¢s your choice. While I may disagree on certain things, I truly do respect all of you guys. I really do. And, I have not even posed any of my real questions about your beliefs, but instead I have been trying to answer yours (which is not a problem). All I ask is for respect in return, and I am not saying you havenââ,¬â,,¢t been respectful. But so many times in our world differences result in bitter endings on both sides, and it is really sad because it only widens the gap. Both sides are to blame.
Anyway, hopefully our discussion has been useful to some extent. Peace.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 06, 2010, 10:20:58 PM
Peace.
I have nothing to add to this topic, but I found the contrast of what your whole post was rationalizing versus this one ending word kinda funny. ;D
I'm sure I'm the only one.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on August 06, 2010, 01:12:52 PM
You would think with the thousands if not millions of prayers going out each day that they would make a difference, right? Oh snap.
Who says it doesn't? Just because you pray for world peace doesn't mean it's going to happen, though, but it also doesn't mean you shouldn't pray for peace at all.
This reminds me of Ion (I think) when he said that some Christians believe if they just pray for success and material items then everything will be okay and granted - but that's not necessarily true. He said his neighbor prayed to God that he would get a certain job or be successful or something but I can't quite remember. It's just naive.
God wants you to love him, but have the will power and determination to accomplish things on your own. I believe the best way to pray is to ask God for the strength to accomplish something on your own, not praying that God do all the accomplishing for you. Seems obvious but some Christians don't see that.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 06, 2010, 12:52:13 PM
It still doesn't look like you understand my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying, I guess I'm not articulate enough to explain it any better, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I still would like to hear some of your thoughts about my post from the last page, which was a direct response to you.
Maybe I don't understand but I thought it was pretty simple.
I didn't see a post you directed at me on the last page but I'll find it and respond to it later if I feel the need ;) Lol I will
One last comment. With God being omniscent, he knows who will pray for what and when. If he has a master plan, then why couldn't the master plan include "answering" those prayers? And the term "master plan" is a bit up to debate on how intricate the master plan actually is. Is it just the basic end of the world events? Is it every single event in the entire universe?
I personally believe it's the former. God wouldn't have trouble answering prayers if he has a master plan as long as the prayer isn't something like "Please don't let the Antichrist be born" or "Please God I don't want to see Armageddon"...
Farley Fan, let me ask you, if god is omniscent, do we humans have free will?
That's an interesting topic for sure and I've had this debate quite a few times. It's a mindfuck but yes, humans do have free will even with God knowing ahead of time. Someone once told me that we have already made our decisions. The key word being "WE". The whole point of life is to figure out why we made those decisions and become better people. It's almost a paradox that makes sense for 5 seconds and then doesn't and then makes sense again for another 5 seconds, you know?
The thing is, we don't have to understand it. It's hard for humans to conceptualize a lot of things but it doesn't mean that things don't work that way.
It's funny because your last sentence is most of the reason religious people think Big Bang and Evolution don't work.
Hur hur.
Hur hur same thing with atheists and God existing before the big bang. Evolution isn't hard to understand. For some people, it's just hard to come to grips with - and that's unforunate.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 07, 2010, 01:53:03 AM
Hur hur same thing with atheists and God existing before the big bang. Evolution isn't hard to understand. For some people, it's just hard to come to grips with - and that's unforunate.
Assuming your referring to the Christian god, then 'he' would tell you that the evidence behind Evolution is false, given that it leads us millions of years into the past, as opposed to thousands. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to force my beliefs upon anybody, but there's some glaringly obvious flaws in the logic of religion that are very hard to ignore.
The "logic" of religion doesn't say that the Earth is thousands of years old. That's not even what the Bible says.
Do you know where the whole "thousands of years" thing came from?
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 06, 2010, 11:04:11 PM
That's an interesting topic for sure and I've had this debate quite a few times. It's a mindfuck but yes, humans do have free will even with God knowing ahead of time. Someone once told me that we have already made our decisions. The key word being "WE". The whole point of life is to figure out why we made those decisions and become better people. It's almost a paradox that makes sense for 5 seconds and then doesn't and then makes sense again for another 5 seconds, you know?
The thing is, we don't have to understand it. It's hard for humans to conceptualize a lot of things but it doesn't mean that things don't work that way.
Except, we fully understand the idea. It's the fact that we understand it to be impossible, because if something knows the future, it is predetermined, and we do not have free will. On the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.
Edit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth#History
You kind of helped my argument.
QuoteOn the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.
When you say "cannot be predicted", it just means you don't understand how it could possibly be "predicted". We cannot comprehend this because WE PERCIEVE it to be impossible.
QuoteEdit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.
It does not say this in the Bible, obviously, and that's what I was getting at. These are just interpretations made about Biblical terms with human terms. I wonder if they actually added 7 days to the end of their guesses to be super exact hahah
Quote from: VenomousNinja on August 07, 2010, 08:35:22 AM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 06, 2010, 11:04:11 PM
That's an interesting topic for sure and I've had this debate quite a few times. It's a mindfuck but yes, humans do have free will even with God knowing ahead of time. Someone once told me that we have already made our decisions. The key word being "WE". The whole point of life is to figure out why we made those decisions and become better people. It's almost a paradox that makes sense for 5 seconds and then doesn't and then makes sense again for another 5 seconds, you know?
The thing is, we don't have to understand it. It's hard for humans to conceptualize a lot of things but it doesn't mean that things don't work that way.
Except, we fully understand the idea. It's the fact that we understand it to be impossible, because if something knows the future, it is predetermined, and we do not have free will. On the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.
Edit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth#History
That's because we're 3-Dimensional beings who perceive a cross section of time, (we see it slice by slice) so we can't know what's coming or see what's happened. Much like a being entirely 2D would only see one slice of the 3D world. An all powerful God would probably exist on a higher level and be able to see the whole of time stretched before him.
Just a theory. Read up flatlanders. It does have support (but yeah, psuedo-science regardless)
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 07, 2010, 05:09:43 AM
The "logic" of religion doesn't say that the Earth is thousands of years old. That's not even what the Bible says.
Do you know where the whole "thousands of years" thing came from?
Tell that to the countless number of biblical scholars who will use the 'thousands of years' argument to negate evolution.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 07, 2010, 10:29:13 AM
QuoteOn the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.
When you say "cannot be predicted", it just means you don't understand how it could possibly be "predicted". We cannot comprehend this because WE PERCIEVE it to be impossible.
No, I mean 'cannot be predicted'. Because again, if the future can be accurately predicted, then it is set in stone, and there are no decisions to be made.
Quote
QuoteEdit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.
It does not say this in the Bible, obviously, and that's what I was getting at. These are just interpretations made about Biblical terms with human terms. I wonder if they actually added 7 days to the end of their guesses to be super exact hahah
Actually, it does. Like I said, it's just an alternate interpretation.
QuoteNo, I mean 'cannot be predicted'. Because again, if the future can be accurately predicted, then it is set in stone, and there are no decisions to be made.
Not true, if you stood back and viewed time as a whole, you'd see everything that's ever happened. Just because you can see it all at once doesn't mean no decisions were made, nothing is truely random - you make all your choices because of the way you're conditioned, even the ones you think are random. Your life and the future is set in stone. (and I'm not even religious)
QuoteActually, it does. Like I said, it's just an alternate interpretation.
Actually it does not. As you said, it's a human interpretation.
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 08, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
QuoteNo, I mean 'cannot be predicted'. Because again, if the future can be accurately predicted, then it is set in stone, and there are no decisions to be made.
Not true, if you stood back and viewed time as a whole, you'd see everything that's ever happened. Just because you can see it all at once doesn't mean no decisions were made, nothing is truely random - you make all your choices because of the way you're conditioned, even the ones you think are random. Your life and the future is set in stone. (and I'm not even religious)
Hey buddy, I know you love looking just so smart on this forum, but next time, take my damn quotes in context.
QuoteActually it does not. As you said, it's a human interpretation.
So I assume your interpretation is not human, that yours is the ultimate and correct, and you have proof to back that up? Please, present it.
QuoteSo I assume your interpretation is not human, that yours is the ultimate and correct, and you have proof to back that up? Please, present it.
I don't have an interpretation of the Earth's age based on the Bible, mainly because it's not described in the Bible. It's like putting together a puzzle with pieces that aren't realy there or are from a different puzzle.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 09, 2010, 01:39:38 AM
QuoteSo I assume your interpretation is not human, that yours is the ultimate and correct, and you have proof to back that up? Please, present it.
I don't have an interpretation of the Earth's age based on the Bible, mainly because it's not described in the Bible. It's like putting together a puzzle with pieces that aren't realy there or are from a different puzzle.
But you obviously have an interpretation of the bible as a whole, and obviously you must have a reason to believe in this particular interpretation, instead of many others. Since you also seem to dismiss any human interpretation as faulty, then you must have one of divine inspiration, and should have proof that your way of thinking is correct above all others.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHNVw8.jpg&hash=32d3d3a6ba6803a173d29e84514e839d877cfab6)
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on August 07, 2010, 03:31:16 PM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 07, 2010, 05:09:43 AM
The "logic" of religion doesn't say that the Earth is thousands of years old. That's not even what the Bible says.
Do you know where the whole "thousands of years" thing came from?
Tell that to the countless number of biblical scholars who will use the 'thousands of years' argument to negate evolution.
Like how you skip over that ;)
Quote from: Cronky on August 06, 2010, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 06, 2010, 10:20:58 PM
Peace.
I have nothing to add to this topic, but I found the contrast of what your whole post was rationalizing versus this one ending word kinda funny. ;D
I'm sure I'm the only one.
Yeah I know, it is funny once I look at it. But if Zedblade asks, I must answer :). He hasn't responded since this, so either he accepted the peace or rejected the offer. I'm hoping the former. I think he has because he seems a little more easy to talk to than some of the others on here. ;D
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 09, 2010, 05:20:56 AM
Quote from: Cronky on August 06, 2010, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on August 06, 2010, 10:20:58 PM
Peace.
I have nothing to add to this topic, but I found the contrast of what your whole post was rationalizing versus this one ending word kinda funny. ;D
I'm sure I'm the only one.
Yeah I know, it is funny once I look at it. But if Zedblade asks, I must answer :). He hasn't responded since this, so either he accepted the peace or rejected the offer. I'm hoping the former. I think he has because he seems a little more easy to talk to than some of the others on here. ;D
Hey, if we're not in a religion debate, I'm completely fine with religious people who are the non-judgemental, non-missionary types. ;D
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 06, 2010, 10:39:02 PM
I didn't see a post you directed at me on the last page but I'll find it and respond to it later if I feel the need ;) Lol I will
Here it is again, it was the very last post on page 42 I think. I've missed the last post on a thread before as well, especially when you come back and there are already a couple posts on the next page. It's easy to overlook.
Quote from: Zedblade on August 05, 2010, 11:13:12 PM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 10:38:28 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
@Zed, you seem to be missing the point. 10 billion prayers ignored and one apparently answered is all the proof a lot of people need. Sure SOME things may be wrong, BUT LOOK! THIS THING HERE WAS RIGHT! (If you look at it a certain way, wearing this certain thing on this day of the week)
What is it with people getting hung up on the whole prayers thing? It just seems to be a non point.
How is the one and only way to talk to your god a non point? Prayer is one of the foundations of most religions, it's extremely important and should be discussed.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
My point was that there is a lot of truth in the Bible. Some people get too worked up over some innacuracies or interpretations that they disregard the book as a whole. And that to me is a shame.
There are truths in the bible, I don't deny that, but there are just as much contradictions and inaccuracies. Not to mention the bible is a morally horrible book, consistently demanding the death of people for petty, illogical reasons and condoning things like slavery and the oppression of women. My question is why do you ignore the awful, repulsive things the bible says, the inaccuracies and contradictions, but latch onto the rest? You are doing the exact thing you are accusing others of doing, just the other way around.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 05, 2010, 04:09:43 PM
If God did create the Bible, I don't see why it would have to impossible to be misinterpreted. Like I've been saying, if God made a science book and said here's all the facts I am God believe me because I just proved it to you, where's the FAITH in that exactly? God would want more than people believing in him just because it's a proven fact and you'd be an idiot to believe that God did not exist. He wants people to see him without their eyes, so to speak.
The bible doesn't need to prove god exists, but you would think if god wanted the bible to be the one and only way to learn about him, to gain faith in him through the words he has written, he would plan out a way that would not allow men to pervert it and bring shame to his name.
There are several occasions in the bible where God as proven that he exists to hundreds of people, such as Jesus proving his resurrection. Why was it okay then, but not now to prove his existence? I've heard some people say god proving himself would remove free will. If god is real and the bible is literally correct, I'm sorry, we do not have free will. God's idea of free will is actually more like an ultimatum. Believe in me or spend eternity in hell.
Even if I knew without a doubt God existed, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll worship him by default. I've actually read the bible (unlike a lot of Christians, which is weird) and it' doesn't describe an all loving, forgiving and caring god. It describes and angry, unjust, egotistical tyrant who lies, murders people by the millions and sends people to infinite suffering and pain for a finite life of unbelieving.
Fuck that.
Uhh, Zed. Why am I quoted as the person who said all of those arguments FOR religion, in your post?
IM BEING FRAMED! >:(
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 09, 2010, 06:51:44 AM
Uhh, Zed. Why am I quoted as the person who said all of those arguments FOR religion, in your post?
IM BEING FRAMED! >:(
I must have grabbed the wrong quote line when I was originally making my reply. Never noticed it. Sorry. Maybe that's why farly fan couldn't find it, it was labeled wrong.
Wow I failed hard.
Quote
There are truths in the bible, I don't deny that, but there are just as much contradictions and inaccuracies. Not to mention the bible is a morally horrible book, consistently demanding the death of people for petty, illogical reasons and condoning things like slavery and the oppression of women. My question is why do you ignore the awful, repulsive things the bible says, the inaccuracies and contradictions, but latch onto the rest? You are doing the exact thing you are accusing others of doing, just the other way around.
I personally believe that the contradictions and innacuracies are caused by translation errors, exaggerations, or even people making changes themselves. I don't ignore the things that you say are horrible. I think some of them were put in the text by man to further some of their personal agendas. This is also a shame because, like I said, there is a lot of truth in the Bible. There are some innacuracies, exaggerations, and even imprints of man in the book and it causes a lot of people to disregard it as a whole in a somewhat understandabe way. I can see why, but it's kind of dissapointing. If God didn't allow the text to change, if God put in all the answers to life (such as the age of the universe), didn't allow the book to become tainted by man, didn't allow exaggerations or translation errors, no one would be asking these questions or denying his existence. I try look at the Bible objectively.
QuoteThe bible doesn't need to prove god exists, but you would think if god wanted the bible to be the one and only way to learn about him, to gain faith in him through the words he has written, he would plan out a way that would not allow men to pervert it and bring shame to his name.
Not so sure about that. It's tricky to think about how God should do things or question why he did some things, because in the end we're just human beings. Maybe in the end we really cannot comprehend his actions. This seems like a cop out to say "God works in mysterious ways" but I don't mean to say it as a Get outta Jail Free Card, I'm saying it as a point. A flawless book with perfect "scientific" facts without any perversion from the hands of humans throughout thousands of years would not only be detrimental to his idea of testing the faith of humans, it could not be done without removing free will. How would God prevent perversion to the Bible without removing free will from the people who intended to do so? Here I am doing exactly what I just said is tricky to do. It's a tricky thing to think about and an even trickier thing to debate.
QuoteThere are several occasions in the bible where God as proven that he exists to hundreds of people, such as Jesus proving his resurrection. Why was it okay then, but not now to prove his existence? I've heard some people say god proving himself would remove free will. If god is real and the bible is literally correct, I'm sorry, we do not have free will. God's idea of free will is actually more like an ultimatum. Believe in me or spend eternity in hell.
This is a good point. Something I've wondered as well. I do not know. Maybe he needed these people to spread the word of God. Revealing himself to people periodically could spur enough interest. I'm wondering how a God would inspire people to believe in him without actually showing a few people first. For example, when God revealed himself to Moses and told him the Commandments, he was using Moses as a tool of inspiration. But here I am wondering how a God would do "bla bla bla". Might as well stick my head in the microwave.
QuoteEven if I knew without a doubt God existed, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll worship him by default. I've actually read the bible (unlike a lot of Christians, which is weird) and it' doesn't describe an all loving, forgiving and caring god. It describes and angry, unjust, egotistical tyrant who lies, murders people by the millions and sends people to infinite suffering and pain for a finite life of unbelieving.
Fuck that.
So, you're saying that even if you knew God existed, you'd still have free will (to an extent). Well that's definitely interesting. That's just a whole other level of "free will" and it's called defiance (thinking Clash of the Titans here haha). There's free will to believe or to not believe, and then there's free will to worship or not. I guess it's a 2 part test. Once you know God exists, though, that first part is out the window and non existent.
The people who believe he exists can worship him for 1 of 2 reasons. They worship him so that they do not go to hell or they worship him because they love God. You can worship God for selfish reasons or for unselfish reasons. Just because you worship God doesn't mean you automatically go to heaven upon death. It seems obvious that God would favor the latter.
Also Zed, your post was #666 on this thread. :o
I should have never responded man now im so fucked! :D
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on August 09, 2010, 04:01:00 AM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on August 07, 2010, 03:31:16 PM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on August 07, 2010, 05:09:43 AM
The "logic" of religion doesn't say that the Earth is thousands of years old. That's not even what the Bible says.
Do you know where the whole "thousands of years" thing came from?
Tell that to the countless number of biblical scholars who will use the 'thousands of years' argument to negate evolution.
Like how you skip over that ;)
I didn't mean to skip over this. I'm like 1 of 2 guys on this "side" of the debate, and it's hard to keep up with every individual topic. And besides, this is kind of a redundant statement and I agree with you. I'm not going to tell you that there aren't people who do this, if that's what you wanted.
Ehm, sorry but I didn't manage to read all 45 PAGES(my god!). But did anyone mentioned here what's the true meaning of word atheist? Atheist is a person who believes that there is a god, but he won't worship him. Was just wondering if you guys realise that.
PS: Same thing with satan believers. People who are eating cats, dressing up dark and doing otehr stuff that they thing is "satanic"(or somthing like that) have nothing to do with satan! That doesn't show anything! People who believe in satan know deffinetly one rule. If someone comes into your way, you are suppose to tell him that he is a problem for you then if he won't listen you are allowed to have revenge on him.
Quote from: puuusianka on August 15, 2010, 08:28:59 PM
Ehm, sorry but I didn't manage to read all 45 PAGES(my god!). But did anyone mentioned here what's the true meaning of word atheist? Atheist is a person who believes that there is a god, but he won't worship him. Was just wondering if you guys realise that.
PS: Same thing with satan believers. People who are eating cats, dressing up dark and doing otehr stuff that they thing is "satanic"(or somthing like that) have nothing to do with satan! That doesn't show anything! People who believe in satan know deffinetly one rule. If someone comes into your way, you are suppose to tell him that he is a problem for you then if he won't listen you are allowed to have revenge on him.
Retard manual:
a - meaning without.
poly - many
gnosis - knowing
thiest - believer in god
athiest - without god.
agnostic - not knowing.
polythiest - believes in many gods.
Regardless, I desperately pray this is a troll post.
NOW FOR FUN ETYMOLOGY TIME!
hyste basically means womb (as in, hysterectomy (ectomy meaning removed), "to remove the womb") so when you're saying someone is acting hysterical, you're actually saying that they're acting like they've got a womb (overemotional).
YEY! ACCEPTABLE SEXISM! :D
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 15, 2010, 08:46:32 PM
gnosis - knowledge
theist - a person of god
atheist - a person of no god
agnostic - one who does not have/seek knowledge
polytheist - one who acknowledges many gods
Where'd you learn your greek?
Fuckin' hippies.
So speaking of Greek.
Why did everyone just kind of drop off the whole... Zeus and his many accomplices? Nordic Gods? Is there still someone screaming to the heavens trying to have Odin grant him strength in times of trouble?
While joking here mostly. I seriously do wonder how people just kinda... stopped mentioning those religions.
Anyone here got some explanations for me?
The Dark Ages. That's all.
Also, I do sometimes "pray" to different gods, depending on the subject.
It's just a silent whisper in my mind, but it helps me, even if it's just placebo.
Quote from: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on August 15, 2010, 10:06:12 PM
The Dark Ages. That's all.
You're no fun ::)
I'm gonna go back to pretending that there are groups of people still calling upon all these gods. The image is funnier looking.
No I aint no fun holmes, just take a sip and drown.
Watson. That is all.
On Topic:
So how about that Religion? It's got some pretty good moves, right?
You mean "that" religion?
Oh yeah, they do great business.
Two jew friends go on a trip to Vatican.
They walk around, admiring the wealth, and then one says:
"Can you imagine, they started from a single shed?"
A guy walks into a post.
A bunch of people nail him to it...
His name was Jesus...
...I'm not good with jokes :-\
Pope the Polack puts on civilian clothes so that he can walk around the streets without being recognized. While he is out walking, a woman comes up to him and says, "Want a blow job?"
The pope says, "A blow job? What's that?"
The woman replies, "Ten dollars."
The pope is mystified, but he continues his walk through the streets. Everywhere he goes, he is met by women saying, "Blow job, blow job!" all day long.
Finally, when he returns to the Vatican and the papal palace, he sees one of the nuns.
"Tell me, sister," asks Pope the Polack, "what's a blow job?"
The nun replies, "Ten dollars."
Quote from: Tidenburg on August 15, 2010, 08:46:32 PM
Quote from: puuusianka on August 15, 2010, 08:28:59 PM
Ehm, sorry but I didn't manage to read all 45 PAGES(my god!). But did anyone mentioned here what's the true meaning of word atheist? Atheist is a person who believes that there is a god, but he won't worship him. Was just wondering if you guys realise that.
PS: Same thing with satan believers. People who are eating cats, dressing up dark and doing otehr stuff that they thing is "satanic"(or somthing like that) have nothing to do with satan! That doesn't show anything! People who believe in satan know deffinetly one rule. If someone comes into your way, you are suppose to tell him that he is a problem for you then if he won't listen you are allowed to have revenge on him.
Retard manual:
a - meaning without.
poly - many
gnosis - knowing
thiest - believer in god
athiest - without god.
agnostic - not knowing.
polythiest - believes in many gods.
Regardless, I desperately pray this is a troll post.
NOW FOR FUN ETYMOLOGY TIME!
hyste basically means womb (as in, hysterectomy (ectomy meaning removed), "to remove the womb") so when you're saying someone is acting hysterical, you're actually saying that they're acting like they've got a womb (overemotional).
YEY! ACCEPTABLE SEXISM! :D
Read your retard manual twice and then ask yourself if I could have been right after all... gosh some people seem to have problems with reading...
I'm an athiest. I believe there is no god. If I thought there was and that he wanted me to worship him, I would.
Go jump off the nearest cliff please and learn2read urself. :)
(though it would probably be difficult to do it in that order.)
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fatheists.png&hash=ada4d59ae30826007f1eb715de9dc6e855e44b69)
I feel superior to the douche with the douche hair.