"Classic" SvM also implemented in Blacklist!

[RaDRoacH]

Also i still hate the DFA (Death from above) mechanic... I really think that it's too OP.

Guns are also stronger... so death from above is useless if the merc kills you in midair... something that was usually impossible for anyone but the host in SCCT


oh btw: I am on vacation until the 23rd of May. See ya.

We don't have the proof that the mercs can counter attack the DFA, also because the DFA mechanic is automatic (I guess that works in the same way like SCC, dunno if you played Spy vs Spy).

Have a nice holiday :)

I was also invited by Zack Cooper at Toronto but i didn't have a passport. The other invited fans already tried every mode of the game.

NOOOOOO!!!! I wish you could've gone.  :-\

Yeah me too lol.

[SheikTheGeek]

Dev diary -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d5OkMcX3z8c

It is rly sad that spy can take down 2 merc in blink of eye. Will see if it is good game or not, we only have to wait for proper gameplay.

I would say its the Mercs fault for being too close together going for a double team.  The Spy being so quick prevents the Mercs from using that tactic, but I do agree, from the Spy angle its looks really OP.  I see these changes to prevent Mercs from using camping or defend only strategy, but the Spies are very frail (seen dying to just to a few pistol shots) and the Mercs can grab them just as easily as well.  I just hope there is a counter system as was mentioned above, otherwise it could degenerate into a instakill input war with everyone rushing each other.

[Farley4Fan]

Looks like both spies and mercs can autokill from the front.  So... will it come down to whoever pushes the kill button first?  Looks like both spy/merc can die faster and more frequently, will there be a life limit?

I would be worried, but I have no good expectations from this series anymore.

[VaNilla]

Looks like both spies and mercs can autokill from the front.  So... will it come down to whoever pushes the kill button first?  Looks like both spy/merc can die faster and more frequently, will there be a life limit?

I would be worried, but I have no good expectations from this series anymore.

How's it any different from shooting before someone grabs you? The fact is that the mercs are way more powerful than they were in CT, so getting up close is actually a huge risk in Classic mode. In Blacklist mode it's all about fast pacing with more players, brighter map lighting and low-powered lethal weapons for spies. I don't see the problem, it forces the mercs to play more strategically, and in both moves you have infinite lives, so it isn't such a big deal.

[Spark Mandriller]

How's it any different from shooting before someone grabs you?

You couldn't grab from the front? In CT if you turned a corner and a spy was there then all he'd do was hit you and then shock you and run away. In Blacklist he'll kill you instantly.
This is kind of a big difference.

The fact is that the mercs are way more powerful than they were in CT

What makes you say that?

[Farley4Fan]

Looks like Mandriller (missed you Rocket!!! <3) has been my proxy since yesterday.  lol

I'm trying not to judge before proper gameplay, but I think there are ideas that have been introduced that have potential to ruin SvM before it even starts up again.

[VaNilla]

You couldn't grab from the front? In CT if you turned a corner and a spy was there then all he'd do was hit you and then shock you and run away. In Blacklist he'll kill you instantly.
This is kind of a big difference.

That's irrelevant, you were talking about the process of pressing a button before somebody else. You have to do that when trying shoot someone before getting grabbed, elbowed or even jumped on in PT/CT. It's no different from anything in the old games, it's always been about who reacts first. But don't take my word for it, ask ShadowFox, a community member on the Blacklist forums who was invited to play the new SvM.

• I really don't think this button mash race is important. People are assuming this is the case when in fact I didn't come into a single melee combat where both of us were going head on, trying to melee the other. If the spy is charging, the merc is shooting...not button mashing to melee him.
• Spies are extremely fragile and very easy to kill. As a merc, you will be very rarely killed from the front if you know the spy is there.
• There is really no button mashing. For mercs it's all above covering the corners and leading with your gun to put the spy down.
• Melee attacks are mostly for when you catch the spy by surprise.

There's a general consensus among the community members invited to play Blacklist; if you get into a situation where mercs and spies charge at the same time, the spies die before they can even get close. It only really works out for the spies if they catch the mercs by surprise, so the mercs can't reach the melee button in time.

What makes you say that?

Here's some more words of wisdom from ShadowFox, the guy who's actually played the game.

• The "aggro spy" isn't really that much a part of classic because it's so easy to get wiped.
• If the merc has his rifle trained on you, it's pretty much game over.

And now SolidSage, another majorly active community member and long time veteran of Splinter Cell.

• The Spy in classic isn't easily killing anyone. I don't think I have expressed clearly how easy it is to kill a Spy if the Merc see's them long enough to put a trigger pull on target. 2 Spies running around on the ground are 2 dead Spies. It doesn't even take half a clip to spray and kill 2. Let's get that straight by the way, I wasn't head shooting a lot, it was iron sights. So I see a spy, approximate aim, burst of fire = 1 kill. I see 2 Spies, aim, burst of fire with a bit of side to side = 2 dead spies.
• The run'n'knife mentality in Classic = death 99% of the time.

Evidence from reading the posts of people who've actually played the game, interviews, seeing the game in action and making my own judgements about Blacklist have lead me to these conclusions. Not from making unsubstantiated criticisms.

[Spark Mandriller]

Looks like Mandriller (missed you Rocket!!! <3) has been my proxy since yesterday.  lol

I show up to save the day whenever people are saying stupid shit, bro. Like a superhero.
Unless it's me saying stupid shit. Because that's different.

That's irrelevant, you were talking about the process of pressing a button before somebody else. You have to do that when shooting someone before you get grabbed or elbowed or even jumped on in PT/CT.

Yeah except there's much less of a penalty if you fuck up. If a CT spy attacks a merc from the front the merc isn't in any danger. Like at all.
It's nice that you can't run straight at mercs and win (I don't know why you're acting like this is new though, uzi mercs in CT would fuck you up nearly instantly if they got a clear shot), but I'm more worried about ambushes. Like if a spy hides around a corner and then melees as soon as the merc turns it. I'm wondering how they're going to beat that.

[VaNilla]

Yeah except there's much less of a penalty if you fuck up. If a CT spy attacks a merc from the front the merc isn't in any danger. Like at all.
It's nice that you can't run straight at mercs and win (I don't know why you're acting like this is new though, uzi mercs in CT would fuck you up nearly instantly if they got a clear shot), but I'm more worried about ambushes. Like if a spy hides around a corner and then melees as soon as the merc turns it. I'm wondering how they're going to beat that.

The whole point is that there's much less of a penalty for dying as the mercs. There's very little danger associated with death in Blacklist as the mercenaries. They respawn in 10 seconds and they're back to hunting the spies, and they have infinite lives so it's not an option to simply DM one merc at a time. As for quick death as the spies, it's certainly new against unscoped rifles, and the Uzi was so unbalanced that most people didn't use it anyway. Quick ambushing forces to the mercs to be more careful, but it's not going to change the tide of a match unless the objectives are being hacked. But if you fail to ambush the mercs, you're dead instantly, and that's a huge setback when your only option is to hack the objectives.

[Spark Mandriller]

The whole point is that there's much less of a penalty for dying as the mercs. There's very little danger associated with death in Blacklist as the mercenaries. They respawn in 10 seconds and they're back to hunting the spies, and they have infinite lives so it's not an option to simply DM one merc at a time.

So wait, their solution to spies being overpowered at ambushes is just to give mercs infinite lives? That's the shittiest idea ever!

As for quick death as the spies, it's certainly new against unscoped rifles,

I dunno, it only took four chest shots unscoped. The real difference is that hit detection's probably gonna be clientside so now people who aren't host can fuck dudes up.

and the Uzi was so unbalanced that most people didn't use it anyway.

Yeah, I, uh. Really? Did the people you played with not use MT because it was op too? Because wow.

Quick ambushing forces to the mercs to be more careful, but it's not going to change the tide of a match unless the objectives are being hacked. But if you fail to ambush the mercs, you're dead instantly, and that's a huge setback when your only option is to hack the objectives.

Isn't that kinda the same in CT? Except now it's much easier to get kills as spy since you don't have to attack from behind/above and hacking doesn't immobilise you. And hacking is all or nothing, so you've got more of an incentive to hang around and try to kill mercs rather than backing off. So we're back to the game making spies too aggressive, woo.

[VaNilla]

The whole point is that there's much less of a penalty for dying as the mercs. There's very little danger associated with death in Blacklist as the mercenaries. They respawn in 10 seconds and they're back to hunting the spies, and they have infinite lives so it's not an option to simply DM one merc at a time.

So wait, their solution to spies being overpowered at ambushes is just to give mercs infinite lives? That's the shittiest idea ever!

The reason infinite lives were implemented is to discourage killing as a means to an end, and allow the spies to keep going for the objectives until they succeed. It also makes the game far more accessible. I've explained this on the Blacklist forums before, check it out.

As someone who played PT/CT for almost 7 years before stopping, I fully support infinite lives. Things are going to change, they have to. You can't expect to have the exact same rules as you did in 2004, they were never perfect. The penalty of death is all about your position and the detriment to your objective; you lose all the headway you've made towards the objectives when you die.

It allows the game to become more accessible, because death isn't the frustration. It makes the whole experience far less negative, and let's be honest, noobs were dealt with pretty mercilessly in past games (instant kicks were common for newcomers). It also forces both the spies and mercs to play more strategically; they can't just go for kills, they have to think about the objectives.

CounterCellOps, I think you're taking minor points and exaggerating them as a result of nostalgia. I'm not saying they can't take the general ruleset of CT SvM, but it can't be exactly the same. Hardcore fans love CT, but when you take a step back it really is a flawed game, what with its needless lack of accessibility and minor imbalances (night vision MT, outlines in EMF, etc). As for rage quits, making a game that drives a lot of people to rage quit before the match has ended is a big problem, especially in a game revolving around team work.

Counter Strike is one of the most well balanced competitive games out there, especially with the newest entry, Global Offensive. If you look at the matchmaking in that game, you have two options; casual and competitive. In competitive mode, you actually get a penalty if you quit before the match is over. Now, these matches can last up to 90 minutes, and yet people generally don't rage quit in CS:GO competitive. Why is that? Because it always feels fair. Every time you fail in that game, it's almost certainly your fault, and you can learn from it. Even if the opposing team wins 15 rounds a row (16 to win), you still feel like you can come back from failure.

Now imagine this scenario in PT/CT SvM. You're playing as a spy, your mate is dead, you only have one life left and you haven't managed to take any of the objectives. If you're playing against evenly matched players, at this point you're totally screwed, you literally have NO chance to come back. Although this is your own doing as a team, it's not fun to lose in such a drawn out fashion. And it's also not fun to lose your team mate in a game that revolves so heavily around team work.

Hardcore fans like us can respect this and enjoy it, because it's really intense and it makes you feel like every move is very important to the team. But for the average player, this kind of thing drives them away, because it's so incredibly ruthless. It feels like you're playing against an impenetrable elite club, and that's not fun. This is only compounded by the fact that noobs get kicked out of most matches before they even have a chance to improve. This is why limited lives is such a big problem, and if we want to see the market for SvM grow, this is something we have to let slide. And as far as I'm concerned, it improves the gameplay considerably. This way, you've always got your mates by your side, and you've ALWAYS got a chance to change the tides of the match with smart play, no matter what the situation is.

and the Uzi was so unbalanced that most people didn't use it anyway.

Yeah, I, uh. Really? Did the people you played with not use MT because it was op too? Because wow.

In my experience, the use of the Uzi was extremely rare. It was fairly easy to get away from the mercs when they had rifles, and given that most people used the rifle, this introduces a new dynamic to the game. Motion Tracking doesn't exist in its old form either; no 180 degree detections or night vision effects are present in Blacklist. The same goes for EMF outlines, and many other flaws from the old games.

Quick ambushing forces to the mercs to be more careful, but it's not going to change the tide of a match unless the objectives are being hacked. But if you fail to ambush the mercs, you're dead instantly, and that's a huge setback when your only option is to hack the objectives.

Isn't that kinda the same in CT? Except now it's much easier to get kills as spy since you don't have to attack from behind/above and hacking doesn't immobilise you. And hacking is all or nothing, so you've got more of an incentive to hang around and try to kill mercs rather than backing off. So we're back to the game making spies too aggressive, woo.

It's much easier to die as the spy, and killing them doesn't result in anything game-changing except during hacking. That's why it balances out. Also, because hacking is all or nothing, you really do have to stay hidden, because if you get caught before you can ambush them, you're dead. It's rewarding for your team-mate to kill mercs to help you out during hacking, but it's not a good idea if you're the spy who's hacking the objective.

[Spark Mandriller]

Wait, spies have infinite lives too?
Man is this game dumbed down.

[VaNilla]

Maybe this will change your mind.

Losing a life, regardless of whether it's because of over confidence from infinite lives, really hurts your chances of success. That 10 minute time limit goes fast, especially when it takes a full minute and a half to complete a hack.
Relaunch times are slow also and then you have to make your way back to a terminal zone.
My basic point is, that it doesn't matter if you have infinite lives, rushing as a Spy gets you wasted fast and if you die twice or more, you've eaten up most of the clock already. You can keep re-spawning as much as you like, the more you do it, the weaker your chances of success get every time.
So at least the good player keeps getting fodder so they have something to do in the round.

A good player is going to know how each life lost increases his team's handicap and is still going to avoid it at all costs regardless of the feeling of 'safety' due to re-spawn. What I mean is, infinite lives is a red herring, anyone who buys into it being a support for a specific strategy for success is going to be very disappointed.
Taking infinite lives out will only lead to shorter rounds, and without the ability to still 'actually' play, in spite of failure, a lot of players are going to walk away. And then your beloved SvM mode dies in the womb and it's back to complaining to Ubisoft for years about making another one or playing with the same small player pool in an ever decreasing SvM community.

I can't imagine how crap a match would be if the Merc's killed both Spies and the round ended. New players would always be in loading screens. That would trash a mode before it even got rolling.

I understand nostalgia but some decisions are actually valid and do more to benefit certain concepts in spite of what the fans might think. IMO.

I understand where your coming from, but most of your criticisms simply aren't grounded in reality.

[Spark Mandriller]

Why would that change my mind? He's just saying most players would prefer it dumbed down. I'm not gonna argue with that . It's like CoD, y'know, it's real simple and that's what makes it popular. Most people like simple.
Having infinite lives is still dumbed down compared to CT though.

[VaNilla]

It doesn't simplify the game experience at all. In the old SvM, things were a lot more simple in a way. You could simply kill the spies/mercs and you've won the match without even thinking about the objective. Rather than just getting behind a merc or jumping on them twice, and charging, beskering and shooting the spies, now you HAVE to think about the objectives. And taking the objectives is far more complicated than killing anybody, because otherwise you're back to square one. Infinite lives is the only way to completely satisfy this type of design. It doesn't dumb down the game at all, and also takes away an unnecessary barrier to entry. It's a win-win situation.

This is completely different to COD, a game where winning/losing isn't a major concern, at least in casual play. Success in COD is defined by points more than anything else, something you can simply facilitate by pulling a trigger. Comparing Blacklist's mechanics to COD is stupid, plain and simple.