Maps - Make your own!... On paper...

[Pusianka]

Well. It poped in my mind that we had the topic of what maps we'd like to have. There were many suggestions of remakes, forts, school and so on. But maybe just suggesting the things isn't enough to persuade the mapper that your idea is cool. Besides balancing the map is important in that case you have to take into account stuff(staff?) like:
- how to block the ending of a map.
- how to make map flexible?(best maps have many routes allowing you to figure out your own tactics.)
- how to block spawns?
- how to avoid constant spawn nade?
* - how to avoid wide spaces(less lags)

and many other things. So the best way is to draw out a plan. Since most of people here have some programs for virtual drawing(or a pencil and scaner/camera), why not make a plan of your map and present it to us? You can post also some reference pictures and describe the rooms and so on. When I have a moment, I'll post a plan of new rocamadour. I hope some of you will also find a moment and create your own beauty or at least will give some appreciation to the creators of maps and all the hard work they have to spend on actual planning.

Also if the above won't work out let's discuss the balancing of the maps and the way some of the ct maps were made since many off them used the same pattern over and over again.(like starting at the top of a building from where you can enter all rooms at once.)

[Cronky]

I like what you're getting at here Puu. Posting up your drawings of your map would be a good start, at least for me. I don't think everyone here is proficient on good level design, even with those points you posted taken in account. With no experience on the subject I, myself wouldn't know the difference between good and bad ways to go about the points.

Some general questions I have that I've never understood to a great extent is:

-How do you create high traffic zones, on purpose?

-How do you measure distances for each team to make it fair (without actually playing on it)? How can you then determine such things as good vent placement?

-Placement of objectives? Do you set up a level to house objectives, or do you build a level and decide objective placement afterwards?

-How/When do you decide to put in environmental props(?)? (such as in CT... the box in Aquarius that you can drop down)

I would be interested in hearing about CT maps that did things right, or had faults.

***Here are tips on making a map that I found in another thread that feels like it would fit here also for anyone who wants to get some more knowledge.
(Gamasutra links on CT Level Design: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3)

[frvge]

The best way to learn: analyze, copy and tweak, test, repeat.

I suggest all to download UDK and start toying around. Follow a few beginners videos and you'll have the basics of a carved out BSP level in under 6 hours of videos. Won't be superb quality, but you can run around in it with the demo-guy character from UDK and shoot at walls. Then experiment with Kismet, Material Editor and if you want Cascade for visual effects and Matinee for cinematic sequences.

The 3DBuzz tutorials are great. Just give them a try.

[Cronky]

What might be fun Frvge is if you (or whoever has the most experience with it) would give some general tips and guides learned from creating the Asylum map for PS. What problems have you run into? Was building it without the inclusion of Merc jumping a challenge? Is it tough to create a level when each sides gameplay isn't 100% finished?

[frvge]

I'm not a level designer. I know my way around UDK, but I'm not as good as Zedblade.
We've worked on models for Asylum, but had some problems with the actual level creation, past the room we showed. I'm actively recruiting new level designers/mappers, but our requirements are kinda high. It's a visually very interesting map, but the execution needs to be good too.

Merc jumping is just a setting. A normal character in UDK can jump, so in order for the Mercs to NOT be able to jump, we need to disable it. We haven't done that yet, but it's fairly easy.

So to answer your questions:
- Asylum hasn't much been worked on, besides props/models.
- Mercs can currently jump, but that will be easily disabled once we do the first playtests

[Cronky]

So at this point, taking in the fact that we couldn't currently playtest a map, would it be worth it to build a map to any extent (aside from getting setting, general layout, and potential placement of items)? It sounds like not enough is done to reliably say, "Build a map in the UDK", as you guys might change something along the way that would force a map maker to redesign whole portions of their currently built map.

Is there any word on a PS related UDK being released before PS is actually finished? I assume that would be updated as you guys get more things working.

[frvge]

You can always work in UDK. The main concepts stay the same. Just make sure you enlarge things 3 times, because our characters are 3 times bigger than the standard UDK characters.

So try it out, get some experience. If people would have started... let's say 3 years ago, they would have had a pretty ok map by now. Maybe they don't have models, but UDK has plenty and there are many free model and texture packs for download.

It's not the execution, it's the idea. But only by making it, you can see (not always play or test!) the things that are right and wrong.

[Pusianka]

Allow me to make one thing clear. I made this thread for people who are not using or planning to use UDK but have a great idea for a map and wish to show it to us and maybe persuade that this idea is indeed cool! I am open for propositions but saying just: "Make a school! It will be awesome!". Because seriously I ran through lots of such bullshit. School is like... third thing that shows in my head when thinking of a map. Show me some more! I wanna see your vision!

Now frvge, could you pls tell me, because from what you said it means that asylum does not have a plan. Just models and some of the rooms from concept art? Does that mean we can try to make our plan of asylum? If so, I am gonna dedicate my school breaks time for that.

Cronky@
1. Your model just lacks a head. I will try to finish it this Friday.
2. I am open to help with UDK whenever I sit at computer(but be aware I'm not a genious). Ofc I will have much more time after May(final exams). You can expect me almost 24h/7 except for little intervals when I am taking a little nap.

The thing about first balancing is working out a beginning pattern of your map. I'll try to use some examples here. I see some similarities in many maps of ct. Here are the results of my examinations:
1. Centrically based spawn - Such spawn allows you to get to every part of a map almost directly from the spawn(aquarius, polar base)
2. Tree based spawn - you succeed to next spawns(missile strike, orphanage)
3. Must go route - there is either a hall or a corridor(or a field) that you have to get through to gain acces to other rooms usually encountering mercs in the area(schermerhorn, deftech, club house)
4. One Front and many back doors - you usually have one big entry and many vents. (Museum, Aquarius)
5. Flexible - I couldn't find a name for that. From known maps only one was using that which is Steel Squad. You get out of spawn and you are under constant vision of mercs only your stealthiness can bring you to the computer. You have to hide between objects in a quite symmetrical rooms(places) and trick the oponent.
I always think of that when planning a basic pattern of my map. The new Rocamadour is somewhere between a must go route and flexible. If your map isn't following at least two of the above I doubt it will work. Perfect example: River mall. It's a kind of a must go route but this "must go" is practically impossible when playing against good mercs. The spawn doesn't have a big entry and leads into a place where mercs expect you which kills all the fun of sneaking. Spies should be able to sneak in unseen and then let the merc look for them and not the other way around - let the mercs see the spies in the first place and then try to lose them! This is called a car chase. 

[frvge]

We have multiple possible layouts for Asylum on paper so that won't be necessary.

Making a map on paper is a good start, but only when you carve it out you'll get the feeling of proportions and sizes, especially when you don't have much experience with making maps. So I advise to make a few sketches, place objectives and so on on paper, then jump in UDK and just try it out.

Trying it out is the most important thing there is. For example, I'm trying out nDo2 now, which is used for creating normal maps (extra fake detail). Cheap! I bought it for my own experiments, but there's a 30 day trial at quixel.se so try it out too to give your textures/materials some more "oomph".

[Finrar]

I had idea of this wonderful map, this drawing took my whole weeks free time, i hope you like it.

[NeoSuperior]

ROFL! Never seen someone with even more..... well let's say "individual" drawing style than me like that before... that said, congrats because it's so "individual" that it became AWESOME again! Really, "+1 applaud" for that brave drawing!

But maybe it would make more sense to make it from bird perspective next time, because the map right now is not in 3D, no not even in 2D. Yes right now it's in 1D. (aside from the "comp2" in the house)

[frvge]

Bonus points.

[Farley4Fan]

But maybe it would make more sense to make it from bird perspective next time, because the map right now is not in 3D, no not even in 2D.

I agree.  I have decided to reveal my subway tunnel design starting with a bird's eye layout, and if the feedback is good I'll continue to update with more pictures.

[Vega]

Hmmm Farley I like your map.  The fenced area looks like it can be really fun but will get hairy at times.  Perhaps if you trimmed it down a bit it wouldn't be as rough for first timers. 

[BearInATie]