The fix list

[Spekkio]

I'm bored, so here's my take on what needs fixing from SvM to your mod:

Bugs/stupid port stuff to fix:
-Sound in general needs to be fixed up
-Optimization of net code to reduce lag, warping, packet loss, and sound loss
-100 ms lag compensation should be added
-Fix the fact that host radar works for an infinitely long range
-Fix the fact that only the host can hear poison mines (not sure if you're supposed to hear them or not though. I'm of the opinion that you should not be able to hear them go off, because then they are functioning like makeshift spytraps).
-Fix bug where Presence Detectors/Alarms appear active on radar after they stopped
-Hitboxes on the spy need to be fixed.
-Fix the "animation glitch" where spies are unaffected by charges if they are performing certain actions
-Hit detection for client spies trying to jump on a merc is too unforgiving
-Hit detection for host spies jumping mercs is too generous. Fix the fact that a host spy can sometimes jump a merc who is berserking (could this be because jumping a merc is host-side and needs to be client-side?)
-Fix insta-frags
-Fix the spy vision glitch for landing
-Fix client-side shock detection
-Fix proxy mine bug where you can place it hanging off a corner and it will blow up when the spy is behind it (and kill him).
-Fix the fact that spy trap/mine lasers aren't straight for clients.
-Fix the hold breath bug that makes the merc spin like crazy in sniper mode.
-Remove 32 FPS framerate cap
-Fix the fact that mouse sensitivity is dependent on refresh rate
-Fix the way the mouse sensitivity works so it's in line with other games.
-Fix the fact that you can still hear/see the sound reticle while using the merc laser.

Now for the controversial part: balance/gameplay tweaks

Spies:
-Snares should make the noise they do in PT when fired, not the loud clumsy noise they make in CT. Keep the 5x snares with 1:15 timer though.
-Fix the fact that spy bullets sometimes fail to detect the mercs when used as proxy radar
-If you can't fix the EAX stuff, have snares occassionally make camo activation noises.
-Enable a "slow climb" to avoid MT and proxies
-Fix the fact that walking/crawling on a slant goes faster than going straight
-Get rid of the last cam "feature" when firing a new cam. Having a key for it is enough.
-Add the ability to shoot down multiple cams and set up a spy "camnet." The spy can only gas from the last cam shot, though.
-Fix the fact that the auto-aim for the sticky shocker doesn't work properly for clients in lag
-Chaff and smoke should not work through walls
-Make elbow and grab two separate buttons
-Adjust grab hitbox so it's directly behind merc's line-of-sight 45 degrees to each side instead of to his left.
-Flashbang blinding effect is no longer negated by a merc re-entering snipe mode.
-Jumps, grab KOs, and cams consistently KO the merc for the same amount of time (currently sometimes a jump or grab KO will result in a 2 second KO).
-Fix the fact that hanging off a ledge (but still) with the disk shows up on merc radar.
-Fix the fact that moving slowly along incline/decline surfaces sometimes show up on merc radar.
-Return to PT-style climbing, ie The hitbox for grabbing ledges in windows is way too small and it gets people killed.
-Remove auto-roll. It doesn't take a genious to press C while in the air if they want to roll upon landing.
-Add the ability to flip over a rail into a railgrab position by holding use while you press jump.

Mercs:

-MT: rework so that it only detects motion without hindering the merc's ability to navigate the map
  -Tweak the sensitivity so spies crouch-moving slowly on a slant don't get detected on a gray box.
-Rifle
  -Up the magazine capacity to 30 rounds/150 max, keep CT rate of fire (would take about 7.5 seconds to empty magazine).
  -Re-enable the ability to use scope + Flashlight at the same time
  -Make the auto-hack always on, rather than giving an obvious indicator that you have moved over a spy.
  -Burst fire increases strength/accuracy of shots (needs in-game testing to get the balance right).
   Increase time between being able to burst fire so that you can't achieve the same ROF with both
   modes like you can now.
  -Remove random sway in sniper scope. If the sway has to stay, make it into a set pattern so a scoped
   merc doesn't end up looking somewhere else entirely after 10 seconds.
-Uzi
  -Fix all the lag bs that comes from using it
  -Ammo cap reduced from 360 to 300 to be in line with the other weapons that have 5 magazines total.
  -Make reload time the same as the rifle 

**Alternate suggestion, albeit less popular apparently:
  -Give the Rifle the PT ROF (empties 30 round magazine in 6 seconds), remove uzi from the game.

-Slightly increase flashlight radius
-Proxy Mines: slightly lower trip radius (this seems like a nerf to proxies, but it's actually a buff as they often go off when the spy is very far away from them resulting in a non-hit, let alone a kill).
  -Make it so that stand-walking (not running) spies won't set off proxies (this will, theoretically, fix "LoChang mines.")
-Poison mines: lower kill time to 10 seconds instead of 15; remove noise
-Laser mines: Explode the instant the laser is tripped rather than 2 seconds later.
-Spy traps:
  -Mercs get 5, refillable to 2
  -Spy trap duration is only 1 min instead of 1:40
  -Spy traps cannot be removed by partner
  -Spy traps can be placed vertically
  -Shorten spy trap laser slightly
-Tazer: SLIGHTLY increase its range
-Camnet: Remove the ability to use vision modes and laser on camnet.
-Flares:
-Replace with incendiary grenades
-Incendiary grenades have a flourescent poisonous cloud. The cloud sticks to spies, marking them on EMF for the next 30 seconds. While in the cloud, the spy will lose health at a rate that would kill them in 5 seconds.
-Frag grenades: mercs get 5 to start, 2 replacements in backpack.
-Charge:
  -Disable the ability to jump after a charge until the cooldown for the next charge has completed if a merc hits a wall
  -Merc elbow hit should not reset charge cooldown
  -Remove auto-aim from charge. 

Annnnnd discuss.

*Last edit: added the fix to remove auto-aim from charge
*Last edit: added the suggestion to have laser mines explode the instant the spy trips the laser
*Last edit: changed rifle/uzi fix suggestions to reflect debate in this thread.
*Last edit 4/24: Added suggetion to enable flashlight while sniping and slightly widen flashlight radius.
*Last edit 4/26: Added stuff about KO time, disks, autoroll and auto-grab.
*Last edit 10/20: Added line about merc laser, tweaked suggestion about spy traps, added incendiary grenades, added suggestion about slow climb to avoid impassible proxies (Club House steam room, anyone?), removed map fixes since they no longer apply.

[goodkebab]

Thanx for the effort Spekkio, and for the effect of being concise...feel free to update the list with other peoples suggestions.

Special notes.

Porting UBI made maps:  doing so literally under the Project Stealth label has a high risk of getting undesirable attention from UBI

solution:  have an independent mod group port the maps and release it as an update.  This is very likely, but based on the success of PS

Current  CT bugs will not make their way into our project, because it is our code, and an entirely different game engine.  What WILL happen, is we will have an entirely different can of worms to fix.  Dont forget, we are not modding CT or DA....we are modding Unreal Tournement 2007, so any bugs that game has will probably creep into our game.

[Gawain]

best list i ever saw  ;D
imo we shouldn't clone scct versus one-to-one, but mix some features of pt in, e.g. phosphorous grenades, random security etc..
remove uzi from the game??  :o maybe this would be possible if we got a pandora-like sniper (which i personally prefer much to the 3-weapon system), but i can't see why as sniper > uzi atm :P

[frvge]

I was thinking about splitting up the mines.
So 1 gadget is proxy, other is laser, and other is poison. Maybe even add a 'spytrap' feature on the poison. Some RFID chip in the dart :p

This will affect gameplay because all mines have a use in each level. So you need to think it over, which slot you'll give up.

The mine cap is like in CT, but it's possible to get 2 or 3 types of mines, so let's say the mine cap is 3.

Assume you have proxies, then you can have 3 proxies at a time.
If you have both proxies and laser, you can have any combination (3-0, 2-1, 1-2, 0-3,  2-0, 1-0, 0-1, 0-2)

So the choice of the mine is heavily map and own style and spy's playing style based. This creates diversity and an extra layer of tactics:
The visible and audible proxy, which can be bypassed by sneaking.
The non-beeping mine with a laser visible in EMF
The non-beeping mine which doesnt have insta-kill but also spytraps you until you heal yourself (RFID chip is then destroyed for some reason).

[Gawain]

Chaff/smoke should not work through walls, ok. But chaff should work in a larger radius, too. Then it would be consequential  and balanced 8)
RFID hahaha ;D  What about a trap that only shows when the spy is near you and when not?
Regarding changing warehouse to extraction mode: extraction mode is very hard to balance as the spies can run very far while the merc is shocked...

Btw, just played bank and the more I play it the more I like it XD

[Gui Brazil]

What about a trap that only shows when the spy is near you and when not?

I see no sense on a trap that shows when a spy is near you...I'd take them and keep walking on the map until it starts beeping so I know where a spy is. Isn't this like the Proxy Detector in DA?

And if you actually meant that it'd show when a spy gets near the trap, not the merc, it's almost the same thing as the Pres. Detector in CT.

[Overstatement]

-Hitboxes on the spy need to be fixed

Do games use hitboxes anymore? I know that lasers perfectly detect the spy (a laser between the legs won't trip) so it would make sense that guns also work this way.

-Tazer: SLIGHTLY increase its range

I bring the tazer to every game, I think it's pretty fine the way it is (but after playing me, people say it's overpowered and often take the tazer to my spy round to prove it).

Addon:

-Remove auto-hack from sniper mode

No way! Swearing after the first surprise shot is the best!

[InvisibleMan999]

-If you can't fix the EAX stuff, make camo activation silent

Why not just get rid of EAX entirely? I mean... we dont' even need that crap.

-Rifle
  -Up the magazine capacity to 30 rounds, give it the PT rate-of-fire
  -Remove auto-hack from sniper mode
  -Burst fire increases strength of shots. Increase time between being able to burst fire so that   
    you can't achieve the same ROF with both modes.

Why are you creating a super weapon?

Rifle is already powerful enough in the PC version. If this were the xbox version then sure, I might agree with you, but we don't need more incentive to take the rifle, it's already the awesome as pretty much all good mercs take rifles. If anything, the other guns need improvements. 

If there's a fundamental principle of balance its that you want to buff up things nobody takes, not the thing everybody takes.

Seriously, Spekkio, you should know better than this with all the time you've played this game.

If anything, I'd make the rifle weaker at close range, since it's supposed to be the weapon that's beaten by aggro. 

-Uzi
  -Remove it from the game

Well I suppose you might as well after you have an uber rifle, but by then you might as well remove the shotgun too, since there's no reason not to take the uber-rifle.

-Poison mines: lower kill time to 10 seconds instead of 15.

I don't think this is even necessary. Poison mines are already really good at stopping spies from entering various corridors. If you force them to make a quick break for a medkit, they've done their job, because they can't be hacking anything while they're running. It also encourages more strategy in mine placement since you've got to take into account medkit placements.

-Tazer: SLIGHTLY increase its range

Tazer needs a big buff. It should definitely be what it was in PT, otherwise nobody will take it. In CT, it was the biggest joke item ever... well okay, maybe flares were worse, but that's only because MT was so uber.

-Reintroduce phosphorous grenades (more of a novelty item).

Why waste the time coding them?

-Frag grenades: mercs get 5 to start, 2 replacements in backpack.

Give mercs more of the most popular merc item chosen? Uhhh... Might I ask why? People already take frags as a stock item. Mercs really don't need more reason to do so. We should be buffing up items that people rarely take, like the taser and flares. Giving people more incentive to take items they'd take anyway seems antithetical to the whole premise of balance.


About MT: personally I'd prefer if we just removed the shadow inversion (like the MT fix maps) and made it so it doesn't work as night vision anymore at all. That'd fix most of the problem. Also it'd be kind of nice if chaff had an effect on MT similar to a flashbang on normal vision, since MT makes you immune to flash.

Really I think the motion whore should mostly just go away. I even wouldn't be opposed to just using DA style MT.

[Gawain]

What about a trap that only shows when the spy is near you and when not?

I see no sense on a trap that shows when a spy is near you...I'd take them and keep walking on the map until it starts beeping so I know where a spy is. Isn't this like the Proxy Detector in DA?
And if you actually meant that it'd show when a spy gets near the trap, not the merc, it's almost the same thing as the Pres. Detector in CT.

You didn't get me. You had the idea that poison mines could work like a laser trap, so the spy is on radar + you said something about RFID on the poison projectile. But RFID chips have a very low range (about 0.5 meters afaik)

Concerning phosphorous grenades, they were really huge fun against weaker opponents (u never know if there's a frag or a phos flying at you) and basically it's the same with flares, the ct-tazer, the camosuit etc.: the idea is great, but it must get boosted. ;)

[Spekkio]

Do games use hitboxes anymore? I know that lasers perfectly detect the spy (a laser between the legs won't trip) so it would make sense that guns also work this way.

The biggest way to notice the flawed hitboxes is to aim at the spy's head, especially when he's going for an objective. I have gotten rewarded for a headshot many times when I know I didn't hit the spy's head, and I've missed many times when I know the cursor is on the spy's head. I'm not sure exactly what's wrong with them, but they are off. I thought it might be just me, but others have said that they find a similar thing happening.

Remember that SvM is based upon the PT version that came out over 3 years ago, and back then they were using old tech as it was. The fact that I can get a constant 70 fps most of the time on 1024x728 with everything maxed out on a 9800 pro and athlon 3000+ xp is a tribute to that.

Why are you creating a super weapon?

Actually, those changes are the way the rifle was in PT. It really makes no sense for the rifle to have 25 rounds when the uzi has 60, and the rifle is not 2x as powerful in full-auto. The burst fire change is an attempt to give a use to the feature. You sacrifice overall ROF for some extra brute power.

Seriously, we're talking about 5 extra rounds and a 25-33% increase in ROF. It's not as severe as you think. If you don't have PT, then feel free to download the Vs. demo and shoot the rifle around. Plenty of spies were able to escape the PT mercs as long as they didn't get into the range of the huge tazer of doom.

The uzi shoots too fast and results in overloading laggy players with a ton of shots all at once. That's why I suggested to remove it. With no uzi around, the rifle needs to be more of a general weapon.

Oh, and the rifle doesn't need to be beaten by aggro. I find it funny that you are against aggro in the first place, but then are against buffing the rifle which would reduce aggro.

Well I suppose you might as well after you have an uber rifle, but by then you might as well remove the shotgun too, since there's no reason not to take the uber-rifle.

The shotgun would still pack a nice punch in close quarters. In maps like Aqua where the action is usually up-close and personal, the shotgun would still be a good choice. Read above about you over-estimating the effects of making the rifle closer to PT behavior.

Chaff/smoke should not work through walls, ok. But chaff should work in a larger radius, too. Then it would be consequential  and balanced

The radius is fine. It had a larger radius in PT and was absolutely ridiculous.

No way! Swearing after the first surprise shot is the best!

I love that part, too. The problem is that the auto-hack gives away the spy when a merc doesn't necessarily see him. That lends to EMF whoring and just sweeping dark areas with the sniper mode because it auto-detects spies.

The only other fix is to always have a "listen" option on the sniper mode and you just hear blank noise if you press it while not focused on a spy. You'd only be able to catch a spy being sneaky if he was talking at the time.

I don't think this is even necessary. Poison mines are already really good at stopping spies from entering various corridors. If you force them to make a quick break for a medkit, they've done their job, because they can't be hacking anything while they're running. It also encourages more strategy in mine placement since you've got to take into account medkit placements.

There are very, very few poison mines that you can place where a spy can't reach the healthbox in time if he's at full health. This makes the mine much less useful than it ought to be. With a reduction to 10 seconds, the spies will still have a chance to reach healthboxes often, but poison mines will increase in effectiveness.

You also won't run into the fact that a poisoned spy can knock off an entire objective in most cases.

Give mercs more of the most popular merc item chosen? Uhhh... Might I ask why? People already take frags as a stock item. Mercs really don't need more reason to do so. We should be buffing up items that people rarely take, like the taser and flares. Giving people more incentive to take items they'd take anyway seems antithetical to the whole premise of balance.

It's obvious you never played PT. The mercs had 5 frags in that game as well. It's beyond me why that number was reduced to 4.

I was thinking about splitting up the mines.

Bad idea unless you rework the equipment system. Since you're not doing that in the first installment, there's no point. I made this list with your 'clone' in mind, not the future adjustments/changes you guys are going to make.

Poisons should not spy trap the spy. That's what spy traps are for. Poison mines are for killing.

Porting UBI made maps:  doing so literally under the Project Stealth label has a high risk of getting undesirable attention from UBI

Call it something different, change the color scheme, and no more copyright worry. Besides, other than Club and Squat, you'd be making changes to the layout anyway. You said yourself that you can't copyright an "idea."

Tazer needs a big buff. It should definitely be what it was in PT,

No, it doesn't need to be what it was in PT. That was too much, and without SS+Jump the mercs will be untouchable. Somewhere inbetween, leaning closer to the CT side, would lead to a balanced tazer.

About MT: personally I'd prefer if we just removed the shadow inversion (like the MT fix maps) and made it so it doesn't work as night vision anymore at all. That'd fix most of the problem. Also it'd be kind of nice if chaff had an effect on MT similar to a flashbang on normal vision, since MT makes you immune to flash.

On the surface this seems like a good idea. The thing you're not considering is that if you do this to MT, you make aggro easier. I think MT is balanced, it's just that some maps make it a pain in the ass. That is a product of idiotic map design, not a product of the vision mode.

By giving it a max range and forcing normal post-render, you help spies who are staying away from the mercs. But the fact that it detects in a 360 radius (albeit a delay from behind) and can still see in shadows helps the mercs when the spies are close. Isn't this the way it should be?

Besides, the mercs have the laser, flashlight, EMF, and a whole shitload of other stuff that can see you in shadows. Hiding in a dark corner is usually not a very good spot in general.

Why waste the time coding [phosphorous grenades]?

They can still be useful, and definitely more useful than flares.

For example, let's say we're playing club house. You can shoot a phosphorous grenade up into the main hall ceiling so that any spy who drops down runs into the gas. Furthermore, a PG and FG are indistinguishable to the spy when they are fired, so it tricks them into thinking they're going to die when they aren't.

They're also very useful on maps like warehouse where spy traps and camnet don't do a damn thing.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

back there on the uzi umm all weapons are good lol.. i was thinking of adding 2 more instead of just having dumb rifle.. i mean i get hs like a beast but uzi is good for some maps and shotty is too..

[frvge]

The idea of putting a _temporary_ 'spy trap'in the poison mines is:
1: you get to see the spy running
2: if it disappears near a med-box, you know his last position: aka a set-back in time and a risk of detection
3: if it disappears not near a med-box, you know there were 2 spies there.
4: if it kills the Spy... well, then the Spy is dead.

This all is (in my idea) a reason to find a way past the poison mine so encouraging stealth, while not really messing with the killing principle of the mine. Maybe make the 'trap' only bleep every 2 seconds...

[Spekkio]

So what you're really arguing is that all mercs should hear the gas noise if the spy trips it, rather than the mine being silent when tripped. That's fine if you feel that way, and of course I disagree, but putting a makeshift spy trap on the device isn't a good idea.

[Overstatement]

For a long time, I thought that the cursor would blink red everytime the spy trips a poison. It turns out that was false (I could have sworn it does it everytime), should we put that in? Would that be a good compromise between you two?

[Spekkio]

It does that when the spy dies from your own poison mine. Wouldn't be a bad idea, and if you have multiple poisons about the map then you can't pinpoint the spy's exact location.

i mean i get hs like a beast but uzi is good for some maps and shotty is too..

The uzi is overpowered, even if it didn't cause lag and a general inability to grab the mercs. It's not omgwtfimba overpowered, but it's still overpowered nonetheless. It's more accurate than the rifle when firing full-auto with a negligible bullet spread, has more than 2x the ROF, more than 2x the magazine capacity, more than 2x the ammo capacity, and the cost is that you do roughly 25% less damage while firing full auto and the damage dropoff kicks in at slightly closer distances. This is fair?

If you could avoid the lag created by 60 shots firing off in 10 seconds, then the uzi still needs a lot of reworking.