1 weapon system > 3 weapon system

[Gawain]

the pt rifle was just perfectly fine. 3 weapons are unneeded and hurt gameplay/balance. not everything they changed from pt to ct are good changes. here are my points for a 1-weapon sys:

-in ct, 95% of the good players use sniper, 5% uzi, and virtually none shotty => no real experience with a real 3 weapon system

-it's the main weapon of the merc just like the ss on the spy side. it's crucial to have a constant factor that you can coun't on as an opponent (and relate balance of maps/gadgets to as a dev), and giving mercs 3 different weapons is like giving the spies 3 different "guns" (hacking glove any1?)

-on small maps where shotty comes in handy, the spies already have a quite hard time staying alive (picking a gun that fits the map may sound clever, but it hurts the balance on maps that aren't a mixture of small and big rooms)

-uzi has no real weaknesses at all

-the rifle is the most balanced one as it has several weaknesses (you can't really spam, in normal mode it's no insta-kill, flash/chaff/headshot-ss disables/kicks you out of sniper mode, and while you are in sniper mode you are immobile, pretty blind and vulnerable for grabs/cams) but yet is quite versatile.

-svm isn't counterstrike

-gadget balance implications: shotty makes taking tazer pointless (=>free slot on small maps but still with full anti-aggro capabilities), flash/chaff is stronger against sniper than against other weapons (gadget guessing games before the game even starts suck), ...

the main counter-points from older discussions on this topic that i can remember are:

-a 3 weapon sys. adds variety to the gameplay
my counter: almost everything you add to the game adds variety. it's no valid point at all, as this would rectify adding a tomatoe-thrower or jetpack, too.
besides, variety is the least thing we have to worry about in ps: 8 instead of 4-6 usable gadgets, new maps, etc

-what if i suck at sniping?
guess what: it's something you can learn. it's also not that crucial to be pro at sniping to become a good rifle user (2 (or 3?) normal-mode headhots kill a spy with full hp)

discuss (and by that i mean try to counter my points before you come up with your personal preferances).

[BurningDeath]

Countering your points, one at a time:

- You got the numbers wrong for sure. I use the Uzi quite a lot and I know quite some players that do. Of course, the rifle is by far the most used weapon, but the ratio is at least 80-20. Doesn't change the fact that this is no real argument for a 1 weapon system, because we got no experience with lots of things that will be in PS.

- Who says that 3 different spy-"guns" would be a bad thing? Also, it's not really that necessary to know what weapon your opponent has. If you're doing good, that will not bother you anyway.

- haha - sucks to be the spies huh?! .. what about taking different routes, staying away from the mercs. No good argument, because PS will have balanced weapons for a 3-weapon system.

- It does not have a scope, nor does it have the insta-kill ability of the shotgun. It could use some recoil, though.

- Every weapon has it's up- and downsides. Not only the rifle.

- No shit, sherlock? haha .. what an argument. I might aswell just counter that with: SvM isn't Pac-Man, either.

- How is this bad? Tazer can make Uzi/Rifle good in close-combat. If you bring the shotgun, you might want to bring backpack and grenades for long-range kills. So you can adjust your equipment to your gun.
Also, flash/chaff are only slightly stronger against the rifle, making the merc unable to snipe.

- Variety is good. Of course, not in the sense you mean it, but implemented in a logical way. New maps do not add variety. Actually, there will be less map-variety in PS than there was in CT and even in PT.


My point:

- A three weapon system is good, because players can choose their gun after their playstyle, just like everyone does with the gadgets anyway. You don't like sniping? Take the Uzi. You don't like aggro-spies? Take the shotgun. You like staying back? Take the rifle.

So I think it's better to have 3 guns that have their ups and downs, than have 1 weapon that can do everything half-assed.

[.leelu12.]

um flash sucks against mercs with rifle, they just go back into snipe and see fine?
My snipe is terrible and spys just aggro me, so i use uzi n shotty lots and i think is more fun

[Gawain]

the most defining up/downside of the guns is their range, and on small maps you don't need the range of the rifle, so every other choice is stronger. the uzi may lack special abilities, but it's working in every distance and no feature of it can be disabled.
if you need help against aggro, simply choose the tazer. besides, aiming will get way smoother + less lag = every gun gets a big boost.
and yes, my point about no experience based on ct is a good one because everybody thinks oh it'll work out fine because it works in ct, but it doesn't because it's effectively a 1.5 weapon sys., not a 3 weapon sys.
choosing the weapons according to your playstyle isn't good variety, as the gun is a way too basic gameplay mechanic for that. you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences. you shouldn't be able to adapt every single gameplay mechanic to your preferences, you have to adapt to some basic stuff and give the opponents something permanent for them to being able to make plans.

btw, i'm speaking about the PT RIFLE which has a slightely higher rof than the ct one (and was kinda more accurate). with the pt rifle there is no need at all for the uzi unless you think spam is good for the gameplay...

[Gawain]

um flash sucks against mercs with rifle, they just go back into snipe and see fine?
My snipe is terrible and spys just aggro me, so i use uzi n shotty lots and i think is more fun

this is a bug that won't be tehre in ps.

[VaNilla]

You mentioned the uzi has no weaknesses, who's to say that will still apply in PS too...

I have to agree with BD, he put it better than I could.

[Kurbutti]

I don't see why you guys are so eager to get three weapons in PS in the first place. Question isn't how, but why. I don't think anyone has presented a good argument to back that up. Oh, and I won't accept some random bullcrap like "playstyles" without an exact explanation. Hell, I can play in 5 different ways with rifle already.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Yeah - Pandora Tomorrow for the win ('cept for bugs).
1 gun that IS BALANCED - even chances for everyone.

[BurningDeath]

the most defining up/downside of the guns is their range

Along with the ROF and the MagCap, yes.

the uzi may lack special abilities, but it's working in every distance and no feature of it can be disabled.

This is PS, as I said, the Uzi needs some recoil. Other than that, it's balanced.

and yes, my point about no experience based on ct is a good one because everybody thinks oh it'll work out fine because it works in ct, but it doesn't because it's effectively a 1.5 weapon sys., not a 3 weapon sys.

That's just a statement, elaborate, please.

choosing the weapons according to your playstyle isn't good variety

Why not?

you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences.

No. You take grenades, mines and gasmask. For the fourth, you have the choice between backpack/camnet or spytraps. I think it'd be better if you could change your gun according to how you like to play, too.

you shouldn't be able to adapt every single gameplay mechanic to your preferences, you have to adapt to some basic stuff and give the opponents something permanent for them to being able to make plans.

Changing your gun does not equal adapting every single gameplay mechanic to ones preferences.
The rest is just you personal measurement.

btw, i'm speaking about the PT RIFLE which has a slightely higher rof than the ct one (and was kinda more accurate). with the pt rifle there is no need at all for the uzi unless you think spam is good for the gameplay...

Why not? If there's a three weapon system, the rifle won't be like the one in PT, and the Uzi will have a higher ROF, more recoil and a way bigger MagCap.

[Westfall]

A 3 weapon system is garbage. You get 2 spray guns and a rifle that takes time to learn. I get really pissed when some1 takes me down with uzi or shotty because they didnt have any real aim but just unloaded. I understand the user friendly, but I'm worried more about the game play. Glad to see ANOTHER thread about this....not really though.

[Gawain]

you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences.

No. You take grenades, mines and gasmask. For the fourth, you have the choice between backpack/camnet or spytraps. I think it'd be better if you could change your gun according to how you like to play, too.

finally we're down to the real problem: too few real gadget choices for the merc.
this problem is based on bad gadget balance, not on too few main gun choices:
-the redundancy of flares (that get hopefully replaced by ph nades or get a huge boost)
-too short tazer range (that will get longer anyways)
-(too small amount of simultaniously placable spytraps to a certain amount)
-the necessity of a gas mask due to the pure possibility of getting spammed with cams/smoke (eg smoke/cams are too strong against a merc without mask)

you're right that in ct, the merc has too few different gadget choices available (especially compared to the spy side), but that will change with better gadget balance.

[BurningDeath]

Actually, with mercs gadgets better balanced, I could imagine a 1-weapon system (with the a rifle similiar to the one in PT) being better.  yeah.

[Gawain]

i can also imagine that another one of the main reasons why people want uzi/shotty is that with some lag, it's almost impossible to stop host aggro. but with better netcode and a boosted tazer (and a slightely higher rifle rof is needed) this problem is gone, too.

[Blank Man]

So are you suggesting a shottyuzirifle?
Or something along the lines of DA's gun?... kind of a mix between uzi and rifle.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

No. Think PT rifle - balanced perfectly (or so it seems).