Main Menu

Game mechanics

Started by a3c0i3d, August 08, 2007, 05:33:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Farley4Fan

I somewhat agree with invisible man.  I think there should be a roll to land faster, and it should be explained in a turorial thingy.  But it should still take some time to master, and timing should be the major roll in this little trick.

Nitro

What we all should remember (us pc gamers atelast) is what made us come back to the game time after time.

Is it the black leather suits?

No its the complexity of the game, it keeps rewarding you for spending time with it.

When i first started with PT the thing that made it so damn addictive was that its not a game i can look at a turtorial video and learn in a day, i always discovered new stuff that can be used to an advantage. In the beginning the old veterans of PT really whopped my ass time after time, but here i actually had no problem with it. I thought that "hey, they have played more and this game is god damn complex, i have alot to learn" (yes i also had some angry thoughts on how much i wanted chop your hands off so i could have a chance)

Small glitches like these are stuff you will learn if spending time, you just have to spot them then learn how to time them. If this had been a EA game all of these glitches would probably been upgrades you can gather after spending several hours ranking up.

InvisibleMan999:
"For instance, if you like the vision glitch, then don't make a stun effect when you fall at all. Just make it automatically work. Then newbies get the benefit of the glitch too."

That is wrong, newbies are not supposed to have pro playstyle.
Little (bad)comparisson: Should Valve make a turtorial on how to shoot trough walls and where in CS? Or should they show where you can boost others up on "unreachable spots"  Sure its not the same game, its not even half as complex as splintecell but its small things you learn with experience.

You cant try to make splintercell shallow and noobfriendly, that will not bring back the core. It might gather some new players but in the end i am guessing this project is building somewhat on perfecting the old game we all loved AND hated.

Damn to early, I cant even understand what i am writing..

frvge

Rolls can set off laser mines or other static/dynamic defenses. I prefer a hard landing over a roll I think.
Quote from: savior2006SCDA has more bugs than a rain forest.
Quote
Treat your customers with respect you make more customers. Treat your customers like pirates, you make more pirates.

Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet

That would be the price of escaping.

a3c0i3d

well, those "glitches" add a factor of possible failure. Station: without the glitch it would be even harder for the spies to make it. If you preform it correct, you are awarded with a quick getaway, if you dont perform, possible death. Skill is awarded.

Spekkio

#20
Kebab, one step is enough to set off the sound reticle. The crouch/roll/crouch hinges upon not taking any steps while standing. That said, I don't consider it a glitch. Yes, Invisible, PC has superior controls because we have access to more buttons with more fingers. This is something you have to deal with when switching between platforms. Saying that we should gimp something because it's impossible with an Xbox controller is not a good argument. Can you instantly turn 70 degrees to your left and shoot at a spy? Didn't think so. Does that mean that we need to remove the option to use a mouse? Fuck no. Using your logic, turning instantly to any other angle than 180 degrees is a glitch because it can't be done on the Xbox.

Likewise, triple-nading is not a glitch, and I have no problem with it staying in the game. Keep in mind that people who have triple nades either sacrifice recon or sticky cams. The former doesn't let them know where you are, the latter doesn't allow them to KO in as many ways.

I'd like to see the vision glitch fixed, but it's not really at the top of the "to fix" list for me.

EMF ghosting isn't a glitch, either. It's a mechanic in the game engine. It's no more a glitch than shooting someone in the head and scoring a kill. Furthermore, EMF ghosting is independent of screen resolution and graphics settings, so seeing spies in EMF actually takes a skillful eye. Because of that, I think it should stay in the game.

Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet

i dunno, when i played on my fx card with all the settings down to minimum, i couldn't see a spy standing just in front of me on emf...

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: Spekkio on August 09, 2007, 07:50:36 PM
Yes, Invisible, PC has superior controls because we have access to more buttons with more fingers. This is something you have to deal with when switching between platforms. Saying that we should gimp something because it's impossible with an Xbox controller is not a good argument. Can you instantly turn 70 degrees to your left and shoot at a spy? Didn't think so. Does that mean that we need to remove the option to use a mouse? Fuck no. Using your logic, turning instantly to any other angle than 180 degrees is a glitch because it can't be done on the Xbox.
Well, my argument isn't necessarily that it shouldn't exist because it's not on xbox, that's just my reasoning that the designers didn't really intend it to be there and that it's an unexpected glitch, not a feature. As far as whether to leave it in or not, I would only leave it in if there's some kind of indicator saying if the spy makes noise or not and crouch/roll/crouch is mentioned in the tutorial. People need to know they can do it and be able to know if they're doing it right, so they can practice it.  Any glitch that requires two people to practice shouldn't exist.

Triple nading is a possible glitch we can leave in, because while it may or may not be an intention, doing it is obvious to everyone, noob and pro alike, and you can go and practice it on your own. So that's fine.

Quote
EMF ghosting isn't a glitch, either. It's a mechanic in the game engine. It's no more a glitch than shooting someone in the head and scoring a kill. Furthermore, EMF ghosting is independent of screen resolution and graphics settings, so seeing spies in EMF actually takes a skillful eye. Because of that, I think it should stay in the game.

Well if I'm not mistaken, some graphics settings make EMF ghosting easier to discern. I'm not exactly sure what those settings are (I know resolution certainly helps). But if we can't get EMF ghosting equal for everyone, I'd say just take it out.

One of the disadvantages of programming a stealth game for PC is that you've got loads of hardware and graphics configurations all running the same game. For a normal FPS this isn't a big deal, but when being noticed or not being noticed is a balance issue, it's something that needs to be really looked into.

Now, I'm not sure the specifics of programming EMF vision and how that interacts with different hardware setups, but if it can't be made equal or almost equal, I'd say just take out the ghosting. I've been EMF ghosted at absolutely sick distances sometimes, and I'm certain it wasn't just because they had a discerning eye.

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: Nitro on August 09, 2007, 07:14:14 AM
InvisibleMan999:
"For instance, if you like the vision glitch, then don't make a stun effect when you fall at all. Just make it automatically work. Then newbies get the benefit of the glitch too."

That is wrong, newbies are not supposed to have pro playstyle.


So glitching is pro playstyle?

Any newbie can do the vision glitch, it's not about skill. It's just that it's a hidden mechanic that they don't know about. It's much like having a cheat code you can punch in. I mean, when I first learned the vision glitch, it didn't take me any time to master at all. Of course, it took years before I actually started doing it, because I simply didn't know. Is it a pro skill? Certainly not. I could teach my 12 year old cousin to vision glitch in a few minutes even if he's never played anything but Halo. The only real question is if you're lucky enough to learn the secret handshake or not. Beyond that, there's no skill at all.

Real pros don't need secret mechanics to beat newbies.


Nitro

Not really saying that glitching is a PRO playstyle i just used it to state that experience brings knowledge.

If you know the map, the game the mechanics you also know a few advantages, it does not mean that you are pro but that you have an edge.

Newbies have their name because they are new to the game, the do not know every corner and all the stuff they eventually will learn. If they are good mannerd people will probably show it to them early so they also know about it.

Yeah you can teach your 12 year old cousin in a second, so can everyone else but its still something that sticks "deeper" into the game. (so you have to play or be nice/know people to learn it)

You are referring completely to the game UBI made and the things the did intend or not, as i have understood it this is project is all about taking out the bad things and putting in the things we liked, not making a bluecopy of what UBI once made.

These glitches are not a must for me at all, but i thought tiny stuff like that made the game somewhat deeper.




Gawain

#25
afaik emf ghosting gets much stronger with higher fps. some people are too good with emf, and i bet that they couldn't do the same with 32Hz and 1280*1024.
emf ghosting should be harder to do in medium distances, so you have to actually suspect the spy to be there and zoom or get closer. but it's no glitch at all, it's more a balance question.

i'm not so sure about the landing glitch, it's only of concern in a few areas. on the one hand, i hate the ridiculous heights one can jump nearly unharmed AND do the vision glitch, on the other hand, the spies need much agility especially vertically.

the silent "speedrolling" is ok for me, as it allows quicker stealth and spies performing it can easily be sniped/naded because the movement is kinda predictable.

triple nading is kinda stupid, and it seems kinda lame the first time one encounters it. but it's really kinda weak so it can stay.

all other glitches should stay out of ps.

Spekkio

#26
You don't need two people to practice crouch/roll/crouch. Furthermore, how do you know that the developers didn't intend for PC players to be able to do that? You're assuming that's the case because you can't do it on Xbox, and I already pointed out the fallacy in that argument. There already IS an indicator if the spy makes noise on the merc's reticle in SCCT, and Kebab is going to add a visual indicator on top of that for PS. What more do you want? A big voice telling you "OMFG YOU MADE NOISE ON THE RETICLE! HIDE!"

Expecting every single tiny game mechanic to be explained in a tutorial is just dumb. There's something called playing the game and finding shit out as you go, like most other games. I equate the vision glitch to the reload glitch that everyone uses while awping in CS. It's a glitch, but it's really minor and has become a staple of SvM gameplay.

EMF ghosting is somewhat dependent on framerate (a higher FPS makes all those hexagons flash quicker which gives the illusion of a more stable image), but it's mostly based on skill of the user to see it. If you can't see EMF ghosts when someone is directly in front of you, you probably have your monitor calibrated incorrectly. You can use http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html to calibrate your CRT monitor. Although I will say I find the "correct" settings too dark for games, so I have a profile in my drivers for "games" which brightens the screen a bit. You won't ever be able to get it right if you have an older LCD monitor.

You will never, ever, ever be able to ensure graphical equality in a PC game. If you don't like that graphical inequality exists, then stick to consoles. People with better hardware will always have an advantage, be it through graphics settings or framerate.

Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet

Or just make a hard-lock in the core of the game for everyone to play @ 800x600 and 32Hz.

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: Spekkio on August 10, 2007, 07:43:32 PM
You don't need two people to practice crouch/roll/crouch. Furthermore, how do you know that the developers didn't intend for PC players to be able to do that? You're assuming that's the case because you can't do it on Xbox, and I already pointed out the fallacy in that argument. There already IS an indicator if the spy makes noise on the merc's reticle in SCCT, and Kebab is going to add a visual indicator on top of that for PS. What more do you want? A big voice telling you "OMFG YOU MADE NOISE ON THE RETICLE! HIDE!"
A visual indicator would be fine. And really I haven't seen any indicator in SCCT right now that tells you if you're pinging the merc's reticule, unless it's very subtle. And I've been playing since PT came out. 

If such a thing exists, then it's so well hidden as to be exactly the kind of hidden mechanics I'm speaking about avoiding.

Quote
Expecting every single tiny game mechanic to be explained in a tutorial is just dumb. There's something called playing the game and finding shit out as you go, like most other games. I equate the vision glitch to the reload glitch that everyone uses while awping in CS. It's a glitch, but it's really minor and has become a staple of SvM gameplay.
Well no. Things like triple nading are fine to let people just discover, because they actually make sense. They use existing mechanics you know, like switching weapons, and use them in a different way, in a logical manner.

Switching vision when you drop isn't a mechanic that makes any sense. It's not really part of the game in any sense and there's no logical reason why switching vision shouldmake you recover faster. It's a glitch that requires little skill and whose whole difficulty is figuring out using a random unrelated keypress that happens to produce some beneficial effect. This isn't about skill or logical thinking, it's a secret move that you only find out when someone else is nice enough to let you in on the club and teach you the secret handshake.

You can have a complex tactical game without secret handshakes.

All they do is promote less competition and more newbies. I don't even want to point out to you how many people didn't know how to use the sound detector in the game. Some people still don't. And it's sad. But that's what happens when you put in secret unexplained mechanics and say "Bah, just let em figure it out in play."

Not surprisingly, people can go months or years without ever figuring out a hidden mechanic.

While you dont' have to explain every little thing in the tutorial, they need to be things people can find out on their own with some reasoning. For instance, you show them how to jump and how to place mines, you can assume they can figure out how to put mines on higher places by jumping onto objects. There is no logical reason to assume anyone will figure out the vision glitch on their own, ever.


Quote
You will never, ever, ever be able to ensure graphical equality in a PC game. If you don't like that graphical inequality exists, then stick to consoles. People with better hardware will always have an advantage, be it through graphics settings or framerate.

No, you can't get perfect equality, but you do need to try to get things as equal as you can in a game of this type. It's possible to cap resolution, and while you can't do anything to framerate, it's possible to play with the graphics to try to get them looking about the same.

frvge

About little things: I never knew that when you point your Merc crosshair at the other Merc and it shows some heart-beat thingy, it meant that he was Spy Bulleted. I usually just ran up to him and checked if the option to remove would pop up.
Quote from: savior2006SCDA has more bugs than a rain forest.
Quote
Treat your customers with respect you make more customers. Treat your customers like pirates, you make more pirates.