The Balancing of SCCT

Started by Xendrid, February 11, 2014, 05:16:38 AM

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frvge

I like the discussion. Keep that up and don't forget to try to be friendly y'all :)
Quote from: savior2006SCDA has more bugs than a rain forest.
Quote
Treat your customers with respect you make more customers. Treat your customers like pirates, you make more pirates.

dYnAm1c

#16
The balancing should be done just like in SCCT, I think it was pretty much perfect.
If anybody thinks they don't want something in the game they can create a custom game,
but that must be CLEARLY shown in the lobby browser or that you only find the lobby if you activate to show custom games.
And if there will be ranked games later there should ofc only be one mode and not customizable.

AgentX_003

Quote from: dYnAm1c on February 13, 2014, 07:00:01 PM
The balancing should be done just like in SCCT, I think it was pretty much perfect.
If anybody thinks they don't want something in the game they can create a custom game,
but that must be CLEARLY shown in the lobby browser or that you only find the lobby if you activate to show custom games.
And if there will be ranked games later there should ofc only be one mode and not customizable.

it should be private for custom games , not public because then it will keep the people from ruining public games.


-Thanks Murdy for da Sig <3  xD

NeoSuperior

#18
Quote from: dYnAm1c on February 13, 2014, 07:00:01 PM
The balancing should be done just like in SCCT, I think it was pretty much perfect.
If anybody thinks they don't want something in the game they can create a custom game,
but that must be CLEARLY shown in the lobby browser or that you only find the lobby if you activate to show custom games.
And if there will be ranked games later there should ofc only be one mode and not customizable.

No the balancing was not perfect. If you had higher latency than 75 ms, then your sniping becomes inconsistence and luck dependent and from 100 ms on sniping became completely useless. But when the ping was good, then sniping was much too strong. Regular fire had to be less than 50 ms to be effective at all and host would even then have a much better hitrate in general.

Also spies have too much HP. Too many spies had the mentality of "well if he sees me I'll just taze him and run away".
Much better would be "Oh damn, if he sees me I am dead".

Imo SCCT was rewarding merc's aim too much while disregarding lots of other things. i.e. "if you play lots of shooters and have at least a bit of brain in your head, then it is easy win".
If there are any orthographic/grammatical errors in this post, you can keep them and, if you want, hang them over your bed ;)

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin

Roberto1223

#19
(I removed this post because I will instead make a new thread about it)

dYnAm1c

Quote from: Meister_Neo on February 14, 2014, 01:59:50 AM
Quote from: dYnAm1c on February 13, 2014, 07:00:01 PM
The balancing should be done just like in SCCT, I think it was pretty much perfect.
If anybody thinks they don't want something in the game they can create a custom game,
but that must be CLEARLY shown in the lobby browser or that you only find the lobby if you activate to show custom games.
And if there will be ranked games later there should ofc only be one mode and not customizable.

No the balancing was not perfect. If you had higher latency than 75 ms, then your sniping becomes inconsistence and luck dependent and from 100 ms on sniping became completely useless. But when the ping was good, then sniping was much too strong. Regular fire had to be less than 50 ms to be effective at all and host would even then have a much better hitrate in general.

Since when has latency or lag anything to do with balancing lol. You will ALWAYS have a disadvantage if you or somebody else lags.

Xendrid

Quote from: Meister_Neo on February 14, 2014, 01:59:50 AM
Quote from: dYnAm1c on February 13, 2014, 07:00:01 PM
The balancing should be done just like in SCCT, I think it was pretty much perfect.
If anybody thinks they don't want something in the game they can create a custom game,
but that must be CLEARLY shown in the lobby browser or that you only find the lobby if you activate to show custom games.
And if there will be ranked games later there should ofc only be one mode and not customizable.

No the balancing was not perfect. If you had higher latency than 75 ms, then your sniping becomes inconsistence and luck dependent and from 100 ms on sniping became completely useless. But when the ping was good, then sniping was much too strong. Regular fire had to be less than 50 ms to be effective at all and host would even then have a much better hitrate in general.

Also spies have too much HP. Too many spies had the mentality of "well if he sees me I'll just taze him and run away".
Much better would be "Oh damn, if he sees me I am dead".

Imo SCCT was rewarding merc's aim too much while disregarding lots of other things. i.e. "if you play lots of shooters and have at least a bit of brain in your head, then it is easy win".

I sort of agree with the shooting part. Shooting for the head mattered, and I liked that, but it was actually too easy. This could possibly because of netcode and hit detection, but it's hard to be 100% sure.

Quote from: dYnAm1c on February 14, 2014, 10:54:49 PM
Since when has latency or lag anything to do with balancing lol. You will ALWAYS have a disadvantage if you or somebody else lags.

Networking doesn't have anything directly to do with balancing, no. But it is still important on making something too easy or too difficult to use.

I thought about my thread some more and what others have said about it, and I guess the problem is the fact that once you get good enough you start looking for the bigger challenge, and that was in the form of my game options. So the gap between noob and pro SCCT SvM players was massive. So once you got good enough, the majority of games you join aren't for you. So the options allowed me to play the game I wanted to play.

The challenge is how to close that gap without losing the SvM design, pacing, and formula that we loved in SCCT. Maybe with updated technology and improved networking it will help. I guess create a standard rule set that is rigorously tested for the perfect balance, and then allow players to set the options if they so choose, allowing games to be tailored to either hardcore or noob players. And in the filters add "Standard Rule Set" as an option. Again, basically my original point.

Roberto1223

This gap can be due to lack of knowledge about vent passages, coop move points, lack of microphone or lack of partner with microphone. Lack of awareness of exploits (I cannot stress this enough). Lack of macro use.

I would argue that most if not all of the "pro players" are just a bunch of exploit abusers (but of course nobody would admit it so don't even ask...).

So in short, a way to reduce this "gap" would be to put a training level in the PS game that teaches ADVANCED techniques.
The SCCT training levels  only ''taught" how to move, how to draw and fire your gun, and how to hack. Everything else is pretty much left for the user to learn by testing things out in-game or by playing the hell out of the game.

I think one of the reasons this game is so "hard core" is because it takes quite some dedication to be good at it (because of lack of proper training etc), yet this is also the reason why there is such a small community with such high skill-level disparities.

The community has a closed and secretive mentality which is not welcoming to noobs.

A way to fix this in PS would be to therefore remove all ridiculous exploits aka "advanced techniques", and to train noobs properly. It would also help a lot to design a control scheme that makes it possible for all players to play fluently so that players using macros don't have an unfair advantage over players not using macros.

I know macro users will hate me for saying that, but it is the truth.

NeoSuperior

well some players have no flashlight as merc, because they don't have 3d analyze. Not to mention things like FPS unlocker or custom crossair.
If there are any orthographic/grammatical errors in this post, you can keep them and, if you want, hang them over your bed ;)

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin

dYnAm1c

The only real complaint that I had was that CT versus was kinda "sloppy" if you can call it like that.
The aiming didnt feel really good and whats even more important, it was really unprecise. Felt a bit like the mouse moved in blocks and not pixels.
Could have been because of the FPS lock but didn't went to deep into that.
Will PS have some restrictions and unchangeable settings like that? Would be quite interesting to know.

frvge

@Roberto: we definitely intend to have more advanced stuff in the tutorial.
@dynamic: no idea. I don't hope so :P
Quote from: savior2006SCDA has more bugs than a rain forest.
Quote
Treat your customers with respect you make more customers. Treat your customers like pirates, you make more pirates.

dYnAm1c

Do you already have some infos on completely new gadgets or ideas of gadgets that you want to have in the game?

frvge

Ideas: yes. Ready for public consumption: nope.
Quote from: savior2006SCDA has more bugs than a rain forest.
Quote
Treat your customers with respect you make more customers. Treat your customers like pirates, you make more pirates.

NeoSuperior

#28
Quote from: frvge on February 17, 2014, 08:23:48 PM
Ideas: yes. Ready for public consumption: nope.

Like Tracker Bullets!
If there are any orthographic/grammatical errors in this post, you can keep them and, if you want, hang them over your bed ;)

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin