Basically I'd like this to be a totally ontopic topic. Thanks.
In my understanding, flow is the way the various decisions you make ingame affects the way you are playing. If I'm wrong on that one correct me.
Map sectors:
Basically I'm just pointing out that there are places where the spies can feel pretty safe, and there are places where the mercs can feel pretty safe (vents and the merc's corridors (not on all maps, though).
The divisions in gameplay:
SPY side:
- Either you are against a merc in the area (this includes stealthing AND forcing your way through)
- Or you go with the vent approach and keep as far from the merc as possible while going for the objectives.
- Fighting the merc
Merc side:
- Actively searching for the spy (while planting traps)
- Passively searching (eg. camping an objective or a place)
- And fighting the spy
Now to keep that interesting, let's talk about the first point in the spy side:
What does it need to have to be interesting, what (general) mapping decisions need to be made, how the approach would change depending on the openness of the environment, or whether you're in a chokepoint or not.
Now, imo a great approach to mapping a place where you can both stealth around and get into conflict would be to have multiple (eg. less than 7) paths for the spy, with one of them going through the room the mercs can access (think museum cafe with more paths (vents with open sides etc), but less shadows in the actual room). It would be harder to hack etc, but getting away would be easier, and perhaps camo could be of some use here.
For the merc part, as long as the paths are not next to each other and he can't check them all within... 15 seconds it's all good, since the spies can still get through pretty safe. However, becasue there are so many paths to check, i'd have motion sensors on the end of the spies 'vent paths'.
The fun part: the vents have open sides, you can ambush the merc (depending on the vents placement), and have a pretty neat way of getting to cafe in and out.
Discuss.
Just out of curiosity, Motion Sensors will only detect you and show on mercenaries map, or it will isolate the area?
Also will the objective have personal protection? e.g. Laser grid, Camera. I am asking because the escape will be hard as it is because of the motion sensors being outside.
Will a spy be able to get out of the room only via the doorway and not back on ceiling? (Coop maybe required?)
What about interactive lighting? Shoot the lights to temporarily dim the area?
That depends on the map. I'm just working on this as an example, basically showing what could be possible and what could work pretty well.
Now, to answer your questions
Quote from: DreadStunLock on July 16, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
Just out of curiosity, Motion Sensors will only detect you and show on mercenaries map, or it will isolate the area?
Basically they should just alarm the mercs, but the room could be designed differently and so it's up to the mapper.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on July 16, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
Also will the objective have personal protection? e.g. Laser grid, Camera. I am asking because the escape will be hard as it is because of the motion sensors being outside.
That's up to the mapper again.
It would make sense to have some security in cramped places where a nade can't directly reach, but otherwise it seems pretty ok without additional defences.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on July 16, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
Will a spy be able to get out of the room only via the doorway and not back on ceiling? (Coop maybe required?)
That depends on the mapper, in my vision it'd need a wallrun.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on July 16, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
What about interactive lighting? Shoot the lights to temporarily dim the area?
Perhaps.
Motion sensor will works like on Cinema? ( Doesn't detect when you use slow ) It will be mapper decision or no?
Map decision. Imo the Cinema approach is pretty good.
Isolating sections of the map was only really needed to balance out the strength of the spies in PT. If I recall correctly CT maps, at most, only ever locked down the objectives.
Yes, but this again depends on the way the map is built, that is: if you've got a huge room with lots of stuff in it (eg. the size of deftech outside), locking objectives in a certain radius inside that room would make sense. Hell, it'd even make sense to have the spy unable to leave the room if he gets caught.
But again, it's one of the things that controls how the map plays, so it's in the mappers hands.
Also note, that when I'm saying mapper I'm not differentiating from the level designer. They both have a great influence on what we'll be playing.
producing a good map takes tons of experience and trial-and-error fixing, not tons of discussion.
Quote from: Rambo on July 16, 2010, 08:24:50 PM
producing a good map takes tons of experience and trial-and-error fixing, not tons of discussion.
Sure, go on and build a map through pure experience and fixing stuff (which you wouldn't have to fix if you thought for a while, or discussed it with someone).
What I see here, is we're trying to get some points down, which could be used in any map, and which possibly could benefit gameplay and help in creating maps faster.
Quote from: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on July 16, 2010, 08:40:59 PM
What I see here, is we're trying to get some points down, which could be used in any map, and which possibly could help in creating maps faster.
Haha. No matter how many points you "get down," nobody can every create a map fastly. Planning is the easy part. Executing is the hard part.
Not what I meant.
What i wanted to conceive in words was, that having a list of stuff that makes a good room/map IS having a list of stuff that makes a good room/map.
AND having a list of stuff that makes a good room/map means, that you don't need to make up a list of stuff that makes a good room/map before actually designing/planning a room/map.
To conclude: this would save LOADS of time in map creation.
I get what you mean.
It's like a Text Tutorial on basic map theory.
It's easy to discredit because the only way you'll know if your map is balanced is to do some playtests and tweak it from the results you get, but compiling a list of general no-no's can provide a newbie mapper with examples of what to avoid, or good examples for what mappers should strive to achieve.
Since we don't have access to map maker for PS (afaik?) there is nothing else that can be done except for discussing what makes a good map, so promising mappers can cut the crap from their design before they waste time on it.
Everyone can download UDK and make maps in them. Going from UDK to PS Editor is a very tiny step.
Quote from: frvge on July 16, 2010, 11:24:46 PM
Everyone who has Windows can download UDK and make maps in them. Going from UDK to PS Editor is a very tiny step.
fix'd
I had trouble making a lot of games even with a simple game making program I used for a college class. It was called Game Maker. I have tons of respect for all the coding and designing that the devs do because it's not easy at all, for me at least. Making an AI for a simple game like Tic Tac Toe killed me a bit inside, it was hard. Even following a tutorial.
I say this because it's not easy to build a map. You need imagination AND you need to be realistic about things.
Quote from: frvge on July 16, 2010, 11:24:46 PM
Everyone can download UDK and make maps in them. Going from UDK to PS Editor is a very tiny step.
The only problem I see with that frvge is that even if you do make a map in the UDK... You have no way to test it.
No Spy or Merc.
Where as it does take a lot of imagination and a knowledge of what works as Farley said, it's even tougher if there is no way you can even test your map. I can hear about how the scale is exactly the same as CT's all DAY, but that doesn't help me when I can't run, jump, and climb around my own level to see if it's even fun to do that in it.
Again, this is "As far as I know". Maybe you all came out with a (at lease semi) working Spy and Merc to play around with in maps while I wasn't looking. :P
I'll see what I can do.