imo sticky cams are the most overused and overpowered gadget the spies got (especially with sound loss/bugs so that you can't hear pulling out the gun or without eax superhearing that you can't hear it being placed).
how do you want to balance it out? maybe just by boosting other underused gadgets? brainstorming appreciated...
note that i don't think spies are op, i just think it's boring that almost all games are decided by this gadget.
Well the only thing that I could think of that would "balance" it by your terms is just separating the gadget into two gadgets. It could be separated into a deployable camera, and a grenade that shoots out the same amount and stuff the old sticky cam did. Difference is that it would take up two spots. People would probably bring either the gas grenade or the deployable cam.
But I don't think that separating its functions like that is necessary. You could boost camo - makes you invisible for longer. You could make spy bullets perform more functions that don't make it obsolete to heartbeat ( maybe increase its radius and lifespan? ) You could make new gadgets, like the holo pod. What about some sort of small backpack for spies? Like a fanny pack ( not really lol ), maybe a utility belt that lets you hold a few extra grenades or gadgets?
Still, the sticky camera will always be used by most. It is like the gas mask for mercs, you can't leave home w/o one.
1. This is not CT the sound loss issue is CT
2. Eax superhearing is not required and is a lame excuse for failing to catch a sound. I Play with a stereo headset and without eax, I never fail to hear a cam being placed, even a cam being placed in a room adjacent to me or sometimes almost the other side of the map
3. The gun is silent when the player holds down the draw weapon key thus you do not hear it.
4. Sticky Cams are not that overpowered. If you are constantly getting hit with them you need to learn when to expect them and be more vigilant. Be quicker turning on your mask, wear it at all times unless using another gadget. It is a player problem, not the gadget.
The only thing shitty about sticky cams is how long the merc takes to get the hell up and not be baffled from the cams. You get up and can't just shoot, you are still kind of tazzed, which is lame imo.
I don't really think it's possible to make the other gadgets as good as cams, mainly because cams produce a different function than everything else. They're the only gadget that can efficiently neutralize a merc guarding an objective.
If you want to make cams weaker, you could
-Make gas mask better.
-put a longer delay on the time it takes the cam to hit the ground and the time it takes before you can launch gas.
Otherwise just design maps such that full stealth can work. If you can avoid mercs, then you'd have no need to neutralize them. A lot of the problem is that a spy has to neutralize mercs sometimes so the cams are essential.
Example: Warehouse - You NEED to bring cams on this map. No matter what. You NEED to neutralize mercs, best way to do that is with a sticky cam.
If you design maps in such a manner that you don't NEED to neutralize mercs before you can do anything, then you shouldn't have a problem and cams wouldn't be brought that much. Cams aren't over powered, true they have a lot of uses, but they can be detected/destroyed/countered/avoided by mercs anyways.
Papa, are you an x-box player or a PC player?
Again, I don't think the cams need a change. Rather there needs to be a change in the time it takes for a merc to get active. example: If i put some1 to sleep in greek room (Aquarius of course) then I can hack all of Greek by the time the merc is standing and can actually move/shoot again. A hack per cam. This neds to change to either longer obj. or shorter sleep time.
Quote from: Gawain on October 16, 2007, 11:48:01 PM
imo sticky cams are the most overused and overpowered gadget the spies got (especially with sound loss/bugs so that you can't hear pulling out the gun or without eax superhearing that you can't hear it being placed).
how do you want to balance it out? maybe just by boosting other underused gadgets? brainstorming appreciated...
note that i don't think spies are op, i just think it's boring that almost all games are decided by this gadget.
ah cmon guys... you really think the cam is so powerful? holy crap.. and also not mostly all games are decided by the gadget.. i mean do u ever face good players? it helps a lot but the merc also has his weapons to help him.. and i can hear the cam being placed... with eax.. i just think its perfect the way it is and it would be pretty strange to make it like into 2 weapons.. i would just give the merc something more if u guys think its powerful... i just think its normal
It's more overused than overpowered correct
Its no more overpowered than mercs' fragmentation grenades.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 17, 2007, 03:09:04 AM
Example: Warehouse - You NEED to bring cams on this map. No matter what. You NEED to neutralize mercs, best way to do that is with a sticky cam.
If you design maps in such a manner that you don't NEED to neutralize mercs before you can do anything, then you shouldn't have a problem and cams wouldn't be brought that much. Cams aren't over powered, true they have a lot of uses, but they can be detected/destroyed/countered/avoided by mercs anyways.
Cams are one of the things that makes the game so incredible deep, giving it a "original" approach.
If you set higher delay on them you will ruin it for those who likes to use the cam as a agressive tool. (offcourse we all hate the really agressive slap cammers but its still a way to play the game)
I do not think the cams are overpowered at all, its the perfect gadget to counter dual backpack mercenaries spamming nades.
This is comming from somone of actually choose to not take mask a whole lot of the games, and i have no bigger problem with it.. If you put yourself in a good posistion with proper deffense and somewhat use of your brain that is.
And yes as allways in sc games: Adjust to the opponents..
Makes me laugh when you see spies trying to aggro shotgunmercs with mask/uzi mercs with mask and then starting to whine if they fail due to the gun beeing to powerful. (which it is if you are trying to poke his eye out with the tazer, but keep range and he are useless)
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 17, 2007, 03:09:04 AM
Example: Warehouse - You NEED to bring cams on this map. No matter what. You NEED to neutralize mercs, best way to do that is with a sticky cam.
well i'd say that you need a good mate instead of the necessity to cam both mercs. You can try to aggro hack while mate is tazing/nading but thats not the point
IMO cams are balanced and I dont really see a reason why you want to nerf them. Im thinking about changing 2 things. When you get cammed and get up after, you cant move for a while and cant use your mask instantly - thats a real problem cause you can easily get cammed for the 2nd time.
Same thing is with sniping. After you get up you cant zoom for a while which is really frustrating especially when you look at spy whos hacking when you cant do anything.
To sum up. I think cams are balanced but i would shorten or completely remove the time when you cant do a thing after you get up.
edit: sry for repeating so many words but i slept only 5 hours this night
Cams are the only way for spies to mobilly neutralize a merc. That function is why they are taken so often. However, that doesn't make them imbalanced or overpowered. The reason they aren't is because you can dodge them or use mask to neutralize the effect.
cams are NOT going to be changed
in my experience, 90% of games the spies win are decided by sticky cams. i'd like to see more variety in gameplay/gadget choice, not only in map design. it must be quite possible to win the popular maps without sticky cams, otherwise it's more about reflexes/listening awareness/spamming smoke than about tactics.
a really little change could work out well, but i also think that the gameplay and gadget behaviour should be cloned first.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 17, 2007, 01:45:46 PM
cams are NOT going to be changed
Get rid of "last cam" menu 'feature' plz. kthxbai.
Quotein my experience, 90% of games the spies win are decided by sticky cams.
Make jumping and grabbing more consistent, both in hit detection and KO time (for jumps), and that will change. Cams are the most reliable way to KO a merc as a client. That's quite ironic considering that they have a gadget for specifically negating cams.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 17, 2007, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on October 17, 2007, 01:45:46 PM
cams are NOT going to be changed
Get rid of "last cam" menu 'feature' plz. kthxbai.
that one was a given!
and also the ability to setup a network of cams
Honestly I feel like just making gas mask client side is enough of a change to nerf cams.
Half the problem with quick cams in my opinion comes with lag where you activate the gas mask, but still get KOed because it hasn't registered yet on the server.
Also if people wanted another slight nerf,they could divide them into two gadgets. Ambush cam and quick cam. The quick cam works like the PT camera, as soon as you exit the view, it disappears. The ambush cam works like the CT one but has a delay to prevent you from releasing gas instantly. So it's something you place down in anticipation of a merc coming that way.
Do you think network cams and sticky cams should be a different gadget? Personally I do. Setting up a lot of sticky cams at once that can put mercs to sleep would be way to crazy. Make Network cams where you can set up a lot at once and switch between your network cams to keep tabs on the mercs. Do not make sticky cams able to do this. Make them a one cam at a time deal.
Who else thinks network cams should be different gadgets than sticky cams?
How do these so called "network" cams work? Are they like regular ones, but you can place more than 1?
I vote for 1 type of cams. Lets stop wasting time for talking about things which are ok. Lets talk about ideas for new gadgets and new moves animations (if possible)
I would presume that for cam networks, only the most recently placed cam can gas the opponent.
I don't think the network of cams is a good idea. Its only going to end up being frustrating when yu pass over so many different cams, or release a different cam instead of the one you wanted. 1 at a time is enough, or else it will work as a camnet (for spies). Why do you think the spies get bullets and hb sensor.
Quote from: Gawain on October 17, 2007, 02:03:20 PM
in my experience, 90% of games the spies win are decided by sticky cams. i'd like to see more variety in gameplay/gadget choice, not only in map design. it must be quite possible to win the popular maps without sticky cams, otherwise it's more about reflexes/listening awareness/spamming smoke than about tactics.
Yeah, if there's one thing I don't like about cams, it's how the quick cam game just turns into a standard FPS match, as opposed to the tactical stealth game that the rest of CT is.
What if we made the gas mask so that it had infinite air supply, but reduced the vision blocking aspect even further? So that you were only looking at a small part of the screen while you had the mask out, but you could keep it out the entire game if you wanted to, at the expense of your vision.
Interesting idea. Although you're _very_ vulnerable for grabs. Maybe even too much.
Quote
What if we made the gas mask so that it had infinite air supply, but reduced the vision blocking aspect even further? So that you were only looking at a small part of the screen while you had the mask out, but you could keep it out the entire game if you wanted to, at the expense of your vision.
Sorry, but this is a terrible idea.
it should take a delay switching to mask, and not activating it. so if you want to be ready for quickcams, you already have a smaller fov. with this, a smaller fov and breathing noises (+some insulation), it would be ok to enlarge the capacitity a little bit. another idea would be making more boxes and walls transparent for emf, so that it's easier to detect hidden cams around corners.
Quote from: frvge
Interesting idea. Although you're _very_ vulnerable for grabs. Maybe even too much.
Yeah. I figured that would be the balancing factor. If you can't KO the merc with cams, you're forced to grab him. The only problem I imagine is trying to use the gasmask versus smoke, as it would be more effective against cams, but weaker against smoke aggro.
Quote from: kronf on October 17, 2007, 09:25:56 PM
Sorry, but this is a terrible idea.
I'm just throwing stuff out at this point. I'm not actually endorsing any of these ideas. They're just some stuff for people to think about and discuss.
no...say what you mean and mean what you say, spare us the nonsense.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 17, 2007, 08:18:48 PM
Quote from: Gawain on October 17, 2007, 02:03:20 PM
in my experience, 90% of games the spies win are decided by sticky cams. i'd like to see more variety in gameplay/gadget choice, not only in map design. it must be quite possible to win the popular maps without sticky cams, otherwise it's more about reflexes/listening awareness/spamming smoke than about tactics.
Yeah, if there's one thing I don't like about cams, it's how the quick cam game just turns into a standard FPS match, as opposed to the tactical stealth game that the rest of CT is.
I think this is a fair complaint. If not for lag/host advantage, I don't think quick-camming would work nearly as much, but you can't get rid of lag. What can be done is slow down the cam's velocity in the air, thus forcing you to use cams more strategically.
Some people definitely abuse quick-cams more than others though *remembers solidus whining about not being able to use cams because he wasn't the host*.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 17, 2007, 09:33:46 PM
no...say what you mean and mean what you say, spare us the nonsense.
Well it's not nonsense. It's just me throwing out ideas for people to consider and think over. They're ideas that I may not have fully thought through, and likely some of them got flaws.
As far as my personal plan for cams in the first version, I think we should leave cams alone but make the gas mask client side and then go from there. Making a client side mask eliminates a lot of the advantage of host cams. After we test that for awhile we can consider making bigger changes later on.
Why not network cams? If you want to set up a network of cams then you take these. They don't have gas properties, but they allow you to see various parts of the maps depending on what map you play on. And they allow you to see that area even if you are on the other side, on top of that you get 5. Most maps have about 5 or less real choke points that would be good to watch from the safety of say, a vent. Sticky cams are fine on their own, how about a new gadget called network cams?
Why not just call it "CamNet for Spies"?
it would be overpowered in maps with large rooms, and underpowered in maps with small rooms (only little part of the map is seen; easily detected and removed by mercs). the spies are not supposed to know everything, they just got other ways to recon and stay undetected. for instance, mercs should not be detected (on a regular basis) in large distances with no line of sight.
When introducing new gadgets, in game design you really have to consider consolidation and keeping things simple and concise. This keeps the learning curve low, and the cost of creating the assets to a minimum.
There wont be any new kind of sticky camera ala "camnet" ....if it is possible to give additional features to an existing gadget.
more fancy features =/= better gameplay
More Balanced Fancy Features = Better Gameplay
Giving additional features to already existing gadgets doesn't make it better. That would unbalance the gadget, make it more overused, and make it worse.
Honestly I don't think the network cam is that useful. I mean, how many cams can you really set up through the level to get a good view. And the fact that you have to be looking through them to see a merc makes them fairly useless.
About the only way I can see netcams being okay is if your partner could view them at any time too, and if they persisted after death, that way you could spend some time setting up a recon network early.
Even still, it's so far fetched, I doubt it's really even feasable. We'd probably be better off having a spy gadget that taps into the merc camnet system. That might add some new fun tactics too, like one of the spies hijacking the camnet in river mall and pointing it at a wall while his partner sneaks in. It'd help to balance levels where camnet is overpowered.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 18, 2007, 05:13:48 PM
More Balanced Fancy Features = Better Gameplay
Giving additional features to already existing gadgets doesn't make it better. That would unbalance the gadget, make it more overused, and make it worse.
there are gadgets in the game that are underused:
-camo
(-snares)
-tazer
-flares
(-spy traps)
overused:
-smoke nades
-sticky cams
-gas mask
-frag nades
(-mines)
so how about balancing existing gadgets before including new ones/new features to already overused ones?
Quote from: Gawain on October 18, 2007, 05:22:25 PM
there are gadgets in the game that are underused:
-camo
(-snares)
-tazer
-flares
(-spy traps)
I don't really feel like spytraps are that bad, It's mostly just that so much of the merc's gear is mandatory. I mean, frags, mines and gas mask are basically givens. So I really see it where the merc has a single open slot to take something else. And that's generally either backpack, camnet or traps.
With mercs, you're forced to make the gadgets awesome to encourage them to be picked, because if you want people not to take frags or mines, the other gadget has to be that good. This means that crap like flares can't exist. In fact, stuff like spy traps probably need a boost to make it worthwhile. I'm thinking for merc to balance the gadgets your list has to look something like this.
Mines, Camnet, gas mask, backpack, frags (all unchanged)
Spytraps (you can now refill them at the ammo box)
CT style MT (yes, as a gadget)
PT style taser
Sniping scope (allows sniping with rifle)
That would give a set of 9 roughly balanced choices and makes it tough to choose one over the other.
QuoteI don't really feel like spytraps are that bad, It's mostly just that so much of the merc's gear is mandatory. I mean, frags, mines and gas mask are basically givens. So I really see it where the merc has a single open slot to take something else. And that's generally either backpack, camnet or traps.
+1 for the 5 slot argument ;D
Quote from: Spekkio on October 18, 2007, 07:46:02 PM
+1 for the 5 slot argument ;D
count me in, too.
spytraps would be fine if there could be 5 simultaneously (larger initially amount), and if they could get placed vertically. camnet is too strong on some maps, too. (for example, it's balanced on cloub house, and spytraps are a good choice to cover garden entrances.)
btw, i wrote spytraps and snares in brackets, because they might only need a small change if at all. with 5 gadget slots things look differently though.
Why not for example make gas mask default and not taking up equip slot? Everyone is taking it 99% percent of the time anyway. It will of course run out after 30 seconds (no infinite stuff), but will free up an equipment slot you are all struggling for.
I don't take gasmask, so it doesn't really matter to me.
BUT, i think you guys should make a vote here.
I'd like to have 5 free slots instead of being forced to scroll through the gasmask in my eq every time.
Also, I'd like to see an option to leave an eq slot empty, so you can take some gadgets from your teammate (one at a time, but that's always something). This would give the spies some more edge over the mercs - say both spies have different eq, but they share it. Say one has flashes, the others have smokes, and they can fill up the slot that is left empty with your mates eq.
Kind of an interesting concept, the whole gas mask always on kind of thing. Just activating it would use its very own button and not be in the equipment menu. Doesn't everyone take gas masks anyways? The only question is what it will do to change the gameplay, will it make the merc too powerful? Letting a merc take backpack, frags, mines, gasmask, and another gadget - Phoshpho nades? - may be giving a little too much.
I don't know how it would work out in the long run.
And Gawain, sometimes adding a new gadget that has a good use will cut down on the amount of times people take another gadget. I mean network cams as an addition could make people take them instead of sticky cams. Maybe if you add another use to them rather than just its networking capabilities, they will be more of another option than just stickies. Maybe you can make each camera make a noise that would ping the merc's reticule every 10 seconds, of course you would have to trigger the noise yourself though, they wouldn't ping it automatically.
Think about Club House. If you put a cam on top of the garden looking down when you first spawn, you have a cam that they cannot shoot and you can watch that area that whole life. Then if you go into the red room and you put it across the upper hall, in the red room still, you can watch the red room and the upper hall all with one camera. Then you can put various other cameras all around to be able to watch areas before you enter them or a partner does. You can use them to be able to coordinate moves, distract mercs, and watch choke points on the map. IMO they would be really useful, and might even replace stickies in my equip if they were in the game.
The whole hacking the merc's cam net is a neat idea. That would be cool if the spy could look through it and see in EMF and Motion Tracking through the cam net.
Quote from: kronf on October 18, 2007, 08:55:49 PM
Why not for example make gas mask default and not taking up equip slot? Everyone is taking it 99% percent of the time anyway. It will of course run out after 30 seconds (no infinite stuff), but will free up an equipment slot you are all struggling for.
Yeah, I've actually had this idea for awhile. Gas mask seems so integral to the merc that we may want to just make it a default item. Also helps newbies a little into taking gear they really need.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 18, 2007, 09:58:47 PM
And Gawain, sometimes adding a new gadget that has a good use will cut down on the amount of times people take another gadget. I mean network cams as an addition could make people take them instead of sticky cams. Maybe if you add another use to them rather than just its networking capabilities, they will be more of another option than just stickies. Maybe you can make each camera make a noise that would ping the merc's reticule every 10 seconds, of course you would have to trigger the noise yourself though, they wouldn't ping it automatically.
Would be kind of interesting to combine camera view + alarm snare, such that you could have the camera ping the reticule when you wanted (instead of launching gas), it'd be similar to the rattle you can make in single player. Basically it would be a distraction cam, that would perform a much more precise role than an alarm snare. Instead of constantly giving off reticule pings, the distraction cam could be activated whenever the spy wanted, and produce only a single or a series of pings, to make the sound seem more authentic. This would be more of a stealthy spy's alarm snare, since it wouldn't make any noise initially and could be used later. Unlike alarm snares though, you wouldn't be able to drop a bunch and then run around while the snares scrambled the reticule.
I get the distinct feeling that it would be very overpowered though.
Yeah, or you could give alarm snares a camera ability and they still function like our current alarm snares do. They wouldn't be overpowered because merc's can easily find alarm snares, depending on where you put them.
QuoteThe only question is what it will do to change the gameplay, will it make the merc too powerful? Letting a merc take backpack, frags, mines, gasmask, and another gadget - Phoshpho nades? - may be giving a little too much.
You can't know what it will do to balance and it's very hard to speculate. Personally I believe we need to keep things that we can keep without change and change only what we must. Too much change is never good. I only suggested default gas mask as the middle ground between people who want to add extra gadget and those who strongly oppose to it. Not sure about it myself.
Interesting idea kronf, but the same argument could be used for giving spies sticky cams as a "free" item. I think having 5 slots is better simply because if, for whatever reason, you decide not to take the item you can take something else.
Too much change is a bad thing, but I'm not proposing giving the spies knives or some shit like that. It's simply adding a gadget. If it's that terrible to have 5 gadgets in testing you can revert it back.
As for spy traps, I think the following fixes would make people really consider taking them:
-Shorten duration from 1:40 to 1:00
-Increase amount of spy traps to 5, 2 in BP for reload
-spy traps can be placed vertically
-shorten laser length slightly.
-Spy's partner cannot remove spy trap
The last thing, in conjunction with chaff going through walls, is what I really believe negates the usefulness of spy traps. In return for not being able to remove them, the duration is significantly shorter. The vertical thing was just a cool ability that I'd like to have back.
The vertical thing would be a huge change in gameplay, as well as putting a mine on the floor. If it can be balanced, I am all for it. If a merc is close enough to the ceiling ( he hopped up on a box or something ) could he place a mine or spy trap on the ceiling?
QuoteInteresting idea kronf, but the same argument could be used for giving spies sticky cams as a "free" item. I think having 5 slots is better simply because if, for whatever reason, you decide not to take the item you can take something else.
Where was it mentioned about sticky cams being a free item? I don't remember reading about it, might have missed it, but thats a terrible idea.
QuoteIf it's that terrible to have 5 gadgets in testing you can revert it back.
The idea is worth of testing and I don't mind that, but since we can't do it now, we can only speculate.
I didn't say you made the suggestion; I was just saying that applying the logic of mask = free because 99.999% of players take it can also be applied to sticky cams.
Kinda yes, but thats why I said "I only suggested default gas mask as the middle ground between people who want to add extra gadget and those who strongly oppose to it. Not sure about it myself."
Quote from: kronf on October 18, 2007, 08:55:49 PM
Why not for example make gas mask default and not taking up equip slot? Everyone is taking it 99% percent of the time anyway. It will of course run out after 30 seconds (no infinite stuff), but will free up an equipment slot you are all struggling for.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 18, 2007, 11:20:24 PM
As for spy traps, I think the following fixes would make people really consider taking them:
-Shorten duration from 1:40 to 1:00
-Increase amount of spy traps to 5, 2 in BP for reload
-spy traps can be placed vertically
-shorten laser length slightly.
-Spy's partner cannot remove spy trap
The last thing, in conjunction with chaff going through walls, is what I really believe negates the usefulness of spy traps. In return for not being able to remove them, the duration is significantly shorter. The vertical thing was just a cool ability that I'd like to have back.
i think both ideas are good for gadget balance and thus gameplay diversity, but i'm a little bit worried about the overall balance between the two sides. afterall, map design is a powerful balance tool...
If camnet is not available, people will take spy traps. It's pretty simple. I've never found traps useless. Ofcourse I put them in the weirdest spots so in a given game almost all my traps get hit. Having the spies unable to remove the spy trap and reduce the time, in my eyes is not a bad idea at all.
Also, when Versus was first introduced I thought the alarm snares worked when you activated them, and not as soon as you shot them. Having the ability to activate them would be a cool addition to it. Maybe even having the abiltiy to chose what type of snare before shooting would be cool too, similar to that for mines.
I think Sticky Cams are fine as they are. Yes they're vital but as Spekkio said the main reason they're vital is because grabbing can be annoyingly buggy and jumps can be laughably useless. Cams allow you to maintain distance from the merc or remain in a safe hiding place and neutralize him with no risk to yourself. That kind of ability is why they're the best gadget a spy can get.
Spies Camnet? I'd rather not spend my round time setting up a bunch of sticky cameras and waste even more setting them up every time I die. I'd suggest give the spies binoculars a use and allow it to hack camnet if the camnet is active for X seconds. From then on you can view whatever the mercs see in camnet via maybe a little video window at the corner of the spies screen so you can potentially be watchign as a merc zooms right in on you so you'll know you've been discovered.
Summary:
Cams are fine
Fix Grabs and jumps
Just adapt the mercs camnet to be hacked by the spies.
it must be possible to recognize snares for mercs, it's just a little bit too easy in ct because they make noises too much frequently + way too loud sound placing them (and eax superhearing, but as snares are also a counter to it it's no big deal). adding the sounds of sticky cams and camo suit would help, too.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on October 19, 2007, 05:41:20 PM
I'd suggest give the spies binoculars a use and allow it to hack camnet if the camnet is active for X seconds. From then on you can view whatever the mercs see in camnet via maybe a little video window at the corner of the spies screen so you can potentially be watchign as a merc zooms right in on you so you'll know you've been discovered.
maybe an interesting idea to balance camnet. how about giving spies a 9th device that works as a hacking binocular?
Well my idea was mainly based on the fact spies binoculars as it stands serves no purpose at all. So maybe you could disable it entirely until you take the hacking binoculars or just throw it in as an addition. Whatever works :)
Quote from: Gawain on October 19, 2007, 05:48:45 PM
it must be possible to recognize snares for mercs, it's just a little bit too easy in ct because they make noises too much frequently + way too loud sound placing them (and eax superhearing, but as snares are also a counter to it it's no big deal). adding the sounds of sticky cams and camo suit would help, too.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on October 19, 2007, 05:41:20 PM
I'd suggest give the spies binoculars a use and allow it to hack camnet if the camnet is active for X seconds. From then on you can view whatever the mercs see in camnet via maybe a little video window at the corner of the spies screen so you can potentially be watchign as a merc zooms right in on you so you'll know you've been discovered.
maybe an interesting idea to balance camnet. how about giving spies a 9th device that works as a hacking binocular?
Snares aren't meant to trick a merc into thinking you are somewhere else; they are meant to cover your own movement so that he doesn't know where you are.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 19, 2007, 07:27:20 PM
Snares aren't meant to trick a merc into thinking you are somewhere else; they are meant to cover your own movement so that he doesn't know where you are.
Right, it's one reason I suggested the distraction cam tool. So you've got a remote sound maker that actually might fool the mercs into thinking you're somewhere else. Maybe it could even be preloaded with a bunch of sounds that you could make at will, like sticky cam launch, spy footstep, gun being drawn, spy grenade explosion, etc.
The drawback would be that unlike an alarm snare it really doesn't cover your movement, since it only makes noise when you actively tell it to through camera view.
Cams would be too good then. However, giving snares a dual ability is not a bad idea.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 19, 2007, 11:01:41 PM
Cams would be too good then. However, giving snares a dual ability is not a bad idea.
Well I was suggesting it as a new type of cam. Instead of throwing gas, it makes noises (and probably doesn't make any sound when you turn it).
So it's a recon/distraction cam as opposed to a gas cam. They can still look the same graphically so the designers wouldn't have to put much effort into implementing it.
I don't think people would take such a gadget. It overlaps with two gadgets that do their functions better.
hbs and spy bullets (and thermal vision) are enough recon gadgets. snares would be more popular with the more gently pt firing sound, with a little lower rate of making noises and maybe with camo and sticky cam sounds. 5 slots would make perfect sense, too.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 19, 2007, 11:45:59 PM
I don't think people would take such a gadget. It overlaps with two gadgets that do their functions better.
I dunno, I think if it were implemented right, I may want to take it. Unlike an alarm snare it may actually be a distraction that can lure the merc away to a region that you're no longer at. So you can place one and then make some sounds to draw the merc. The fact that you'd get to control what sounds it makes and when would make it a pretty powerful distraction tool, and ultimately unpredictable. I doubt it'd be a gadget for everyone, but it's certainly something I'd think about taking, especially with 5 gadget slots.
in which way should this gadget improve gameplay? it makes it nearly impossible to tell the authenticity of a noise for the mercs and gives spies some form of camnet they are not supposed to have. it would be a tool very hard to master (and balance) with almost no new balanced abilities. with 5 gadget slots, you can simply take sticky cams/hbs/spy bullets + snares to get a more balanced effect.
there are few people that take snares or camo atm, so we should start boosting those and adding a 5th gadget slot. there are also very few people that use sticky cams as a recon tool (kinda handy placed behind river mall sign, factory main hall, club corridors etc). i can simpy see no need for a network-distraction-cam.
Quote from: Gawain on October 20, 2007, 05:33:00 PM
in which way should this gadget improve gameplay? it makes it nearly impossible to tell the authenticity of a noise for the mercs and gives spies some form of camnet they are not supposed to have.
It's a diversion as stated before. Yeah, it makes the mercs question the authenticity of any noise they hear. That's the point.
Basically it's another tool for the stealthy spy, who wants a means to avoid rather than confront the mercs. It's really nothing more than the equivalent of having your partner wait somewhere and make noise at a predesignated time, so I don't see it as being all that powerful. It's definitely something i'd use though. I'd really forsee the camnet feature being all that useful honestly, Mostly that's just there to see if the merc responded to your diversion, not as muhc of a scouting thing. Setting up a camera network is hardly all that valuable to a spy, not whne heartbeat and spybullets do that job better.
The main purpose of the diversion cam is to make noise and draw off a merc. I think it would really improve the "mind games" aspect of the game, since it's yet another trick you can pull on an experienced merc. I personally love playing mind games with my opponents. I'm the kind of spy who will go to the disk drop off door in Aqua and hack that so the mercs think I'm hacking office and then hit pirates when they're hopefully out of position.
no good merc team would leave their position in this situation.
a gadget that makes more authentic noises than snares is just lame so that no merc would trust his sound reticule anymore; furthermore it wouln't be able to cover your own noises at all. snares with a more gentle firing noise are just fine.
maybe giving sticky cams some network ability would be ok if underused gadgets get a stronger boost. maybe we should allow one cam to be toggled to "surveillance cam" so that it stays (maybe even a small video window). but there's no real need for all of that; don't fix what is not broken.
Quote from: Gawain on October 20, 2007, 07:58:36 PM
no good merc team would leave their position in this situation.
a gadget that makes more authentic noises than snares is just lame so that no merc would trust his sound reticule anymore; furthermore it wouln't be able to cover your own noises at all. snares with a more gentle firing noise are just fine.
Well causing him to doubt the reticule is also a side effect of the gadget benefit. As far as covering your own noise, that's how this gadget is weaker than alarm snares. The distraction cams are for a spy who is going to be quiet and makes noise elsewhere, also causing mercs to doubt their reticules. The alarm snare is for spies who want to make a lot of noise and have something cover it up. While both are sound based, they each do their work in a different manner.
There are some tasks to which the snare is better and some to which the distraction cam is better. Snares effectively scramble the reticule so it's not very useful anymore. The distaction cam causes mercs to doubt the reticule sometimes, but also doesn't cover up the spy's natural sounds like snares do. So beating the distraction cam is a mind game, is the sound you heard really the spy or is it just the cam? Keep in mind that D-cams would have to be placed. so it's not like you can just start making noise on the other side of the level without at least being there at some point during your life. Further you'd probably have to place them on ground level, as opposed to a vent, becuase a sound from above may obviously be only a distraction.
Now I don't know if distraction cams would be overpowered or not, but I can certainly say they wouldn't be useless. I think they'd be a nice addition to the stealthy spies arsenal.
I strongly suggest not adding any more functionality to existing sticky cams. They're just too good as it is and honestly I don't see the network cam being something people would use much anyway.
the point is, good spies won't make noises that ping the reticule besides firing stuff or going aggro (then it's pretty clear where they are) anyways, so snares are much better covering the really gentle noise of using hbs or crouching in vents or really running around the map. the already existing network feature of the cam is also kinda underused even by good players.
Quote from: Gawain on October 21, 2007, 02:36:24 AM
the point is, good spies won't make noises that ping the reticule besides firing stuff or going aggro (then it's pretty clear where they are) anyways, so snares are much better covering the really gentle noise of using hbs or crouching in vents or really running around the map. the already existing network feature of the cam is also kinda underused even by good players.
Well which would be why the cam can make various other sounds that don't necessarily poing the reticule. Stuff like the Spy gun firing or the Spy grenade going off/being launched.
The point is, combining gadget functions is not a good thing. Hey, why don't we make a chaff/flash grenade. When it blows, it lets off a flash that is weaker than an ordinary flash, and the chaff has a lower radius and shorter duration. Wouldn't that be cool?
No, it wouldn't. Stop trying to cross gadgets.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 21, 2007, 03:00:10 AM
Well which would be why the cam can make various other sounds that don't necessarily poing the reticule. Stuff like the Spy gun firing or the Spy grenade going off/being launched.
snares should do that, too.
crossing gadgets sux.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 21, 2007, 03:42:38 AM
The point is, combining gadget functions is not a good thing. Hey, why don't we make a chaff/flash grenade. When it blows, it lets off a flash that is weaker than an ordinary flash, and the chaff has a lower radius and shorter duration. Wouldn't that be cool?
No, it wouldn't. Stop trying to cross gadgets.
Its not crossing gadgets.
This cam doesn't knock people out. It doesn't shoot gas, so its not a cross of anything.
Yeah it functions as a camera, but seriously, who cares, we use stickies to KO mercs, not to see into areas. In fact they're terrible as a recon device because they make so much noise. I still remember the fools who try to see into tech using stickies on aqua before dropping from the vent. The sticky sound is obvious that it basically alerts the merc and says "I'm in the vent, come kill me."
And as far as alarm snares go, this thing produces sounds to draw mercs, while alarm snares produce white noise to cover your movement. Again two different functions, much like HBS versus spybullets. They both do similar things, just in different enough ways that they warrant a new gadget.
The reason I suggested network cams is so less people are likely to take sticky cams every game. Giving Sticky cams network abilities would make people take them even more. Stickies need no change or boost. What we do need though is more gadgets, more gadgets that are actually useful to make the games vary more gadgetwise.
omg almost no players use snares, camo, tazer and flares because of the very limited amount of slots and bad gadget balancing. how about fix that first?
+ ct has much depth to offer, how about getting "pro" first (thinking of teams like kronf and led)?
i don't know much players that are significantly better than me, and i really don't consider myself pro, because there's so much to improve in numerous areas. maybe the game get's boring if you don't play competively/with better opponents and try to learn or work out new strats.
Sure why not? Wasn't it already decided that somehow we would do that?
Quote from: Gawain on October 22, 2007, 01:41:22 PM
omg almost no players use snares, camo, tazer and flares because of the very limited amount of slots and bad gadget balancing. how about fix that first?
I like snares on some levels.
Camo, tazer and flares aren't taken because of equipment slots. That's solely because they suck. Seriously, on PC, it's so easy to pick out a guy using camo (not to mention the EAX bullshit). Tazer is so gimped it can't even stop a spy running right at you with the elbow, and flares... well it's hard to describe how crappy flares are.
Quote
+ ct has much depth to offer, how about getting "pro" first (thinking of teams like kronf and led)?
i don't know much players that are significantly better than me, and i really don't consider myself pro, because there's so much to improve in numerous areas. maybe the game get's boring if you don't play competively/with better opponents and try to learn or work out new strats.
We all thought PT was a good game, then CT improved on it with new gadgets and other enhancements. Well, it's not a matter of it getting boring, it's a matter of enhancing it. New options (so long as they're not must take options) are good for the game. I figure PS will be the next step in CT's evolution. While we dont' want to redefine the core gameplay, like DA did, we do want to enhance it. More options, more tactics, and generally more depth.
While you can go and say "this gadget is redundant" or "that gadget is redundant", remember that the heartbeat sensor felt really redundant at one time. You're like "why do I need this? I already have spy bullets." However the two proved to have two different functions and were good in different areas. And it just worked out.
I imagine a lot of new gadgets here may just work out too.
^^^ Exactly what I mean. Why make a clone of CT exactly? You can always go and play CT. We need to enhance it and make it better with balanced features that don't change the core gameplay. And if it does change the gameplay, it makes it better gameplay. And I am sure that a few new gadgets won't turn it into DA.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 22, 2007, 06:32:20 PM
And I am sure that a few new gadgets won't turn it into DA.
Yeah, we should probably remember that lack of gadgets made DA what it is.
i simply think that it's best to balance out the existing ones (and replace flares with some form of phosphorous/incendinary nades) first and see how it works out before adding new ones. this + mt (mr.mics way or ct's one with no night vision?) + weapons (pt rifle or more balanced uzi/shotgun?) are way more important questions at this stage of development.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 22, 2007, 06:32:20 PM
^^^ Exactly what I mean. Why make a clone of CT exactly? You can always go and play CT. We need to enhance it and make it better with balanced features that don't change the core gameplay. And if it does change the gameplay, it makes it better gameplay. And I am sure that a few new gadgets won't turn it into DA.
no ffs. ct is laggy, buggy, crappy console port with outdated graphics and insufficient gadget balance. believe me, with new graphic and way few bugs and the fixed gadgets/visions, ps will play like a way enhanced ct.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 22, 2007, 06:38:19 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 22, 2007, 06:32:20 PM
And I am sure that a few new gadgets won't turn it into DA.
Yeah, we should probably remember that lack of gadgets made DA what it is.
the lack of gadgets/ss was one big part of the disaster, but there were other important flaws in game design.
Quote from: Gawain on October 22, 2007, 01:41:22 PM
omg almost no players use snares, camo, tazer and flares because of the very limited amount of slots and bad gadget balancing. how about fix that first?
+ ct has much depth to offer, how about getting "pro" first (thinking of teams like kronf and led)?
i don't know much players that are significantly better than me, and i really don't consider myself pro, because there's so much to improve in numerous areas. maybe the game get's boring if you don't play competively/with better opponents and try to learn or work out new strats.
I like snares too; however, I don't use them unless I'm partnering with specific people because you have to make up for the sacrifice of generally more useful gadgets.
Quote from: Gawain on October 22, 2007, 06:39:45 PM
i simply think that it's best to balance out the existing ones (and replace flares with some form of phosphorous/incendinary nades) first and see how it works out before adding new ones. this + mt (mr.mics way or ct's one with no night vision?) + weapons (pt rifle or more balanced uzi/shotgun?) are way more important questions at this stage of development.
Oh, I agree. But for the most part, those discussions have sort of been laid to rest.
I think we all agreed Mr.Mic's MT variant was great and that we should try that. Until we've actually tried that, there's not a heck of a lot to talk about there anymore. I like that fix, and so does mostly everyone else. Now we just have to see how it actually works.
As far as weapons. I don't have too much objection to a PT style rifle. A part of me likes separate weapons, and I really think that at least getting the sniper scope should cost you something (either make it a gadget add on, or have it weaken the weapon somehow), mainly because sniping is crazy powerful in the PC version. It sorta sucked in the xbox version, but in PC good snipers are crazy, so you should definitely have to pay something for the added versatility sniping gives you. But that's about it. I'm not really in love with the shotgun or uzi, especially if we make the taser better, it'll probably replace the shotgun's usefulness.
my suggestion:
-5 slots
-pt rifle but without scope
-scope (and tazer) as a gadget
EDIT: with this system the mercs are more flexible in gadget lodout, but not really stronger on most maps. the spies can make better use of their 5th slot resulting in a gentle boost for the spies.
Quote from: Gawain on October 22, 2007, 09:20:54 PM
my suggestion:
-5 slots
-pt rifle but without scope
-scope (and tazer) as a gadget
sounds good to me.
how are you going to make a scope a separate gadget? I say nay to this suggestion.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 22, 2007, 11:18:28 PM
how are you going to make a scope a separate gadget? I say nay to this suggestion.
scope = attachment to gun like tazer. what objections do you have?
I have the same objection to it. The scope is an inherent property of the rifle.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 22, 2007, 11:18:28 PM
how are you going to make a scope a separate gadget? I say nay to this suggestion.
Easy. Scope is one of your gadget options, so instead of smoke grenades you take a gadget called "rifle scope".
Then it's just a matter of a simple 'if' statement in the code.
When you hit the zoom button. If you have a scope in your possession, you get to zoom (and snipe).
If not, then nothing happens and the zoom button effectively does nothing.
As far as scopes and being inherent properties of rifles, attachable scopes are pretty common. Heck most of the guns in the later rainbow six games had scopes you could attach. So it makes perfect sense.
Ummm, what is the point of making 5 gadget slots then? Most people would bring the scope for the assault rifle and you have 4 gadget slots left and a scoped assault rifle. IDENTICAL to what we have right now.
I say nay.
What would be the point of an assault rifle w/o a scope?! Submachine gun anyone? I don't see where you are going w/ this suggestion whatsoever.
Fixed problems won't make it a WAY enhanced CT. It will make it better, obviously, but it won't take it to the next level. And by next level I don't mean CT's retarded cousin DA. What I do mean, is its older better brother PS...
Hell no! The scope needs to be in the rifle, no mater what. I'd like to see this 5 gadgets idea, though.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 23, 2007, 01:03:27 AM
Ummm, what is the point of making 5 gadget slots then? Most people would bring the scope for the assault rifle and you have 4 gadget slots left and a scoped assault rifle. IDENTICAL to what we have right now.
I say nay.
What would be the point of an assault rifle w/o a scope?! Submachine gun anyone? I don't see where you are going w/ this suggestion whatsoever.
QFE
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 23, 2007, 01:03:27 AM
Ummm, what is the point of making 5 gadget slots then? Most people would bring the scope for the assault rifle and you have 4 gadget slots left and a scoped assault rifle. IDENTICAL to what we have right now.
I say nay.
What would be the point of an assault rifle w/o a scope?! Submachine gun anyone? I don't see where you are going w/ this suggestion whatsoever.
Fixed problems won't make it a WAY enhanced CT. It will make it better, obviously, but it won't take it to the next level. And by next level I don't mean CT's retarded cousin DA. What I do mean, is its older better brother PS...
simply wrong. uzi is a quite strong choice, it's only underused because of the lagg bs. the pt rifle rof is somewhere between ct uzi and rifle afaik. never played against solidus and snakebit when they used to play with dual uzi? their cover strategies worked quite well. with scope and taser as an gadget, you have to make the tactical decision whether to be stronger in close quarter combat, large ranges, or another spy tracking device/support gadget. i can't really say what i'd take on a balanced map (orph/club/steel).
btw, it would also help reducing work as only 1 gun model with 2 different attachments is needed. it would also be more reliable for spies as the damage in medium distance stays almost the same.
and wtf is everyone talking about "the next level" "next gen" blablablub ::) there are almost no players that have discovered 90% of the possibilities in ct, and there will be a lot more with 5 slots, well-balanced gadgets, more maps, fixed sound (and mt). can you plz give any reasonable arguments and stop comments like "nah i dont want it but i want #add fancy gadget# because its so useful"?!
afaik, most ppl take rifle because of the 2x damage multiplayer in snipe? take that out, they'll start whoring uzi or shotgun.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on October 23, 2007, 12:25:09 PM
afaik, most ppl take rifle because of the 2x damage multiplayer in snipe? take that out, they'll start whoring uzi or shotgun.
Under this system, there is no uzi, only a PT rifle (which you have to take). If you want more close range power, you take a tazer. If you want long range capability, you take a scope. You could also have an extended clip gadget or something to give an uzi feel too. But the basic idea is that you get a gun that's respectable at medium range and decent at short range, and you can enhance it further through gadget choices.
There really is no reason to move the scope to a gadget, other than the fact that someone said it.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 23, 2007, 07:45:55 PM
There really is no reason to move the scope to a gadget, other than the fact that someone said it.
There are plenty of good reasons to move it to a gadget. Mainly that it fits well wtih the idea of gadgets giving you abilities to attack spies better at various angles or ranges. It fits in well. Consider:
Tazer: More close range power
Frags: Ability to arc something over a barrier and other indirect fire.
Scope: Long range attack
The rifle with integral scope made a lot of sense in CT, where you could choose rifle (long range), uzi (medium range), shotgun (Close range). But with only one weapon, it tends to make more sense to make people pay something to modularize it. Part of what we're doing with one weapon is making the rifle a bit better at medium and close range (like the PT rifle was).
Also as I said before, sniping is extremely powerful, I think you really should have to pay something for it. It's one of the few things I think people might give up frags or a backpack for, and if you go with the one weapon concept, it makes sense to have upgrades to the weapon you can take.
If there's 1 weapon that is medium at all thungs, we indeed could go the:
- sniper attachment (needs to be 'activated' aka go into sniper-mode=RMB and fire=LMB)
- RoF-enhancing attachment (doesn't need to be activated)
- shotgunbarrel attachment for better short-range (would have to be 'activated': shoot with RMB)
way.
With a max of 1 gun-attachment per user.
The good things are that the current way of playing stays the same AND you can opt for another gadget if you can cope with the 'normal' rifle without special additions. So some extra recon gadget vs more gunpower.
you dont get us. forget rof-enhancing attachment or shotgun attachment, because rof-e.=uzi and shotg.=shotty/tazer.
the weapon would stay the same (imo the pt rifle was much better balanced than the 3 ct weapons together), and you can add tazer and/or scope to it. this makes only sense with 5 slots, of course. this configuration offers more tactical possibilities and is easier to balance than 3 different weapons.
going into sniping mode should stay on zoom.
it would also be good if it was possible to still use other gadgets while using mask. the controls should be as easy and as customizable as possible.
Quote from: Gawain on October 23, 2007, 10:38:45 PM
you dont get us. forget rof-enhancing attachment or shotgun attachment, because rof-e.=uzi and shotg.=shotty/tazer.
the weapon would stay the same (imo the pt rifle was much better balanced than the 3 ct weapons together), and you can add tazer and/or scope to it. this makes only sense with 5 slots, of course. this configuration offers more tactical possibilities and is easier to balance than 3 different weapons.
going into sniping mode should stay on zoom.
it would also be good if it was possible to still use other gadgets while using mask. the controls should be as easy and as customizable as possible.
No no, you don't get us. The idea of having scope as optional takes away the whole purpose of a 5th gadget slot. Especially if we don't know how many guns are going to be in PS. If there is only rifle then scope will be taken every time. Why not just have 4 slots with the scope already attached to the rifle? IMO, you would have to be a moron to take rifle without a scope. Unless there are other guns, right now the idea of scope as "another gadget" is not at all rational. Spekkio said it best: "There really is no reason to move the scope to a gadget, other than the fact that someone said it."
All the other reasons I've read hardly have any validity as to being a solid reason for making scope an extra.
Before any decisions are made on this (unless they already have been) I demand a vote.
BTW, this strayed off topic hard.
Edit: Rifle = long range accuracy. Only real gun IMO
Uzi = laggy POS that was inescapable. Froze merc on screen b/c some1 was a noob and needed the spray.
Shotgun = noob-tube. Spray for defense against altercations with spies. Mostly only necessary for DM.
Demand... demand... pff. You can ASK for a vote.
How are you going to say I can ask. Is this a power thing? Maybe you and Jackie should go on a date ;)
Really though, have there been any decisions on the gun? And the fact that you are saying I can "ask" for a vote is unnecessary. There is just going to be constant arguing going back and forth on this topic unless the creators create a happy medium. In that case, good luck.
Quote from: frvge on October 23, 2007, 10:07:19 PM(needs to be 'activated' aka go into sniper-mode=RMB and fire=LMB)
No, please, I'd rather have a snipe button like it is now than having to press 2 buttons in order to snipe... It's too slow IMO.
Uh, it's the same system as now. At least, I have to press middle-mouse to go into scope and then fire with LMB.
This idea is just simply dumb. Just balance out the uzi and shotty. The reason why people didn't take Uzi as much as rifle isn't because of lag! It is because it is totally useless at long range. Some of the only maps I use Uzi on is either Warehouse, Aqua, or Museum ( sometimes ). Other than that, I will stick with something that I can actually kill someone a long ways away with.
If for some reason we are only designing one weapon, which I didn't hear about, then of course there would have to be an attachment feature.
Adding the scope as a gadget that competes with all the other stuff is a terrible idea. It's up there with giving spies knives and giving mercs the ability to fart proxies in a firefight. It would have absolutely no effect on enhancing gameplay (you "gmo add scope gadget" crowd have not even begun to explain how it would make gameplay better), and would probably detract from it.
In scenario A, we go with the PT-style rifle. This gun is in no way as effective in CQB as the uzi; the ROF shoots 30 rounds in 10 (maybe 12, I haven't been playing much lately so I forgot) seconds rather than 25. Ubi coded all full auto guns in PT/CT to empty their clips in the same amount of time. Thus in the game code only the magazine size changes and the ROF just follows suit. That's a 17% difference -- which equates to less than 1 round/sec buff. Basically, the full-auto capability of this gun would be nothing to write home about, thus pretty much forcing you to take the scope. Oh, and the PT rifle did less damage per shot.
Oh, but then you say add attachments! No...just no. Again, you're adding an obligatory gadget. Without any attachments, the PT rifle would absolutely suck as a weapon, and the mercs would have no way to kill spies other than using gadgets which have a limited supply.
Why bother adding a 5th slot if you're just going to add another obligatory gadget? The point of my 5 slots idea was so that you had more room for the 'optional' stuff -- flares, tazer and spy traps, and not so that you can just add another "must-have" gadget. If you don't take the tazer, you still have the bullcharge and berserk to help you in CQB, but those maneuvers are riskier. That is the tradeoff. If you don't take the scope on the rifle, you're stuck with a weapon that can't do anything. There is no tradeoff there. Rifle without scope = suck, rifle with scope = good.
Then there's the possibility of going with the CT weapons...then what? Is the scope only compatible with the rifle, or are we going to be sniping people with the shotty now? If it's the former, you are again forced to take the scope since the rifle cannot stand alone as a viable weapon; the latter is just absurd.
Just drop this inane idea, please.
Exactly Spekkio^
I say we move back on topic, balancing of sticky cams. I designed a few new looks for sticky cams that might work out pretty well. Their physics make sense in a game like CT. Pretty much the spikes stick into the surface, they can rotate on a little ball axis, and they have vents around the lenses like other people have suggested. What do you think about this new look?
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fxs120.xs.to%2Fxs120%2F07433%2Fsticky3.png&hash=f9ddeec17dd4b49f60c93334a308259632c97659)
This one has less spikes but they are larger ones.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fxs220.xs.to%2Fxs220%2F07433%2Fsticky4.png&hash=b175784483526a1f7c3e4cb997a691b0ad276a00)
A 3-spiked sticky cam? Why not just shoot the merc in the neck with 'em :D. They actually look decent, although I do prefer Daybreak's incarnation.
Lol, who cares in the game world, it isn't about realism anyways. :D
It seems that this is what the creators have produced as the sticky cam, now called "Epoxy Cam"
http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php/topic,484.0.html
Oh, that was final? Awesome, guess I don't need to design stickies anymore lol
Now, onto bullets, snares, and nades ;D
The name actually works, saw a special that talked about epoxy and everything, very nice.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 24, 2007, 02:20:15 AM
It would have absolutely no effect on enhancing gameplay (you "gmo add scope gadget" crowd have not even begun to explain how it would make gameplay better), and would probably detract from it.
Well, perhaps it's because I liked the idea in CT how some mercs were good close combat, some were good at general purpose firing and others were snipers. The idea that everyone is a sniper kinda sucks IMO.
Quote
Oh, but then you say add attachments! No...just no. Again, you're adding an obligatory gadget. Without any attachments, the PT rifle would absolutely suck as a weapon, and the mercs would have no way to kill spies other than using gadgets which have a limited supply.
I killed lots of spies with the PT rifle in basic mode.
And I hardly think scope is an obligatory gadget. It's good yes, but not obligatory. I got by in CT using the uzi pretty much as my staple gun and it worked fine. I can say that no, you don't need a sniping scope. There was only a few levels where I felt sniping was necessary (like polar base). Yes, there are a lot of players who would probably take scope as one of their main gadgets, but it's by no means a must-take. Honestly I would probably take spytraps over scope on most levels, but I'm not really a sniping merc.
It's a general play-style choice and that's fine. Just like aggro spies almost always take flashbangs and stealth spies rarely do. I mean, that's okay. It's alright if different play styles have obligatory gadgets, you just don't want the gadget obligatory for everyone, and believe me. I don't consider the scope obligatory.
QuoteThen there's the possibility of going with the CT weapons...then what? Is the scope only compatible with the rifle, or are we going to be sniping people with the shotty now? If it's the former, you are again forced to take the scope since the rifle cannot stand alone as a viable weapon; the latter is just absurd.
Well no, if you're going with CT weapons, then you obviously don't have the scope as a choice. In fact, you probably don't even want the tazer as a gadget, since it invalidates the shotgun. Of course, then you probably don't want to go wtih the PT rifle, since the rifle in CT is deliberately supposed to be an inferior choice at medium and short range compared to the other weapons.
QuoteWell, perhaps it's because I liked the idea in CT how some mercs were good close combat, some were good at general purpose firing and others were snipers. The idea that everyone is a sniper kinda sucks IMO.
So then you'd be in favor of keeping the 3 CT weapons. That's fine. However, none of that forces you to use up a gadget slot, and it ought to stay that way.
QuoteAnd I hardly think scope is an obligatory gadget. It's good yes, but not obligatory. I got by in CT using the uzi pretty much as my staple gun and it worked fine. I can say that no, you don't need a sniping scope. There was only a few levels where I felt sniping was necessary (like polar base). Yes, there are a lot of players who would probably take scope as one of their main gadgets, but it's by no means a must-take. Honestly I would probably take spytraps over scope on most levels, but I'm not really a sniping merc
The uzi at full-auto != rifle at full auto, in either game. It is much, much stronger. It has over 2x the ROF, less bullet spread, more ammo capacity, and does 2/3 the damage. Using the rifle solely full-auto is not a viable weapon. Yea, you'll kill people every so often, but now the spies have two ways to stay away from you and you have a counter to neither: keep at range or double team you.
Go ahead, try playing CT with the rifle and no scope at all. I guaruntee you won't do much. Wait, you play Xbox, right? So sniping probably already plays no role whatsoever.
QuoteWell no, if you're going with CT weapons, then you obviously don't have the scope as a choice. In fact, you probably don't even want the tazer as a gadget, since it invalidates the shotgun. Of course, then you probably don't want to go wtih the PT rifle, since the rifle in CT is deliberately supposed to be an inferior choice at medium and short range compared to the other weapons.
Why wouldn't you want the tazer as a gadget, period? It in no way invalidates the shotgun or vice-versa. They function entirely differently. A spy hit by the tazer will fall down for 10 seconds and lose half his health. A spy hit by the shotgun, assuming he wasn't killed, will continue to just run away. Furthermore, the shotgun has a longer range than the tazer. Even if the shotty did invalidate the tazer, there are two other guns where the tazer could be useful, and a merc with a shotty has next to no long-range capability at all, so he's already paying for the extra slot he can use elsewhere.
Obviously the talk of the PT rifle behavior is only if you get rid of uzi/shotgun. If those two weapons stay then you leave the rifle as-is. Only adjustment I'd make is upping the magazine capacity to 30 and lowering the uzi's total rounds to 300 to make them more in-line with each other.
Still, you ignored my argument entirely. The only thing you said is that "having everyone with a rifle would be bad," and that "the scope wouldn't be obligatory," using the
uzi as your example. We're not talking about a scope on the uzi; we're talking about a scope on the rifle. We already have a system in CT where people can choose different weapons. How is it going to enhance gameplay to move those weapons to a gadget slot?
well, simply take the pt rifle with rof somewhere balanced between uzi and sniper and 30 bullets per magazine. if the scope is an obligatory choice for every good player, you would be right. but with the right rof AND other boosted/improved gadgets like tazer and phosphorous nades, i'm sure it would be a tuff choice to make.
i'm ok with scope being included with the gun, but if it takes one slot it could help balancing down the mercs a little bit and would allow for more different eq loadouts.
anyway, 5 slots and one gun would already be a really big improvement.
Attachments are totally fine as long as they have the same functions as CT guns and they don't take up a slot. Making one uber gun that has different functions that you can change before the game starts is good, but having it take up a slot is bad. There would be no point to 5 slots if it just brings you down to 4 again.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 24, 2007, 01:45:20 PM
So then you'd be in favor of keeping the 3 CT weapons. That's fine. However, none of that forces you to use up a gadget slot, and it ought to stay that way.
Well, sort of. I liked the basic set up in CT where you paid for various aspects. Though CT was based on a give and take. If you took shotgun for instance, your close combat was great, but your medium range was lacking, and long range was non-existent. If you took the rifle, you weren't great in short and decent in medium, and had great long range attacks. The uzi (ignoring lag issues) was the balanced weapon.
Now that sort of worked and I'd be fine if we just decided to go that route.
That works when the tazer sucked. However, once the tazer becomes good, it's possible to get good short range combat skills with any weapon. This makes the shotgun pointless. You're giving up medium/long range attacks for the ability to own at close range, only a gadget will already let you do that.
So now your choices are uzi and rifle. The faster RoF from the uzi caused lag issues, so we probably want to eliminate the uzi. Still people want a gun that's decent at medium range, so we can use the old PT rifle or maybe even a slightly enhanced PT rifle.
Taking the tazer one step further, we say "if you want to own at short range, take a tazer, if you want to own at long range take the scope."
That in my opinion creates a nice logical symmetry of gadgets.
QuoteThe uzi at full-auto != rifle at full auto, in either game. It is much, much stronger. It has over 2x the ROF, less bullet spread, more ammo capacity, and does 2/3 the damage. Using the rifle solely full-auto is not a viable weapon. Yea, you'll kill people every so often, but now the spies have two ways to stay away from you and you have a counter to neither: keep at range or double team you.
Well I would have no problem upping the rifle a bit. The idea is that I want a base weapon similar to the uzi, but minus the lag issues. Then you can throw on other gadgets, like the scope or the tazer, to improve your ability at other ranges.
Quote
Go ahead, try playing CT with the rifle and no scope at all. I guaruntee you won't do much. Wait, you play Xbox, right? So sniping probably already plays no role whatsoever.
Yeah if this were Xbox, I wouldn't seriously care about a scope. The scope ain't worth jack there. On PC though, it's totally another story, you can snipe so fast that good snipers use it at medium range as well as short. Anytime you're stationary hacking an objective, you're vulnerable to a quick head shot. If it's a host sniper that shot can sometimes get you before you even see the merc round the corner.
Seriously, the scope is awesome on PC.
QuoteWhy wouldn't you want the tazer as a gadget, period? It in no way invalidates the shotgun or vice-versa.
Yeah it does.
Giving up medium to long range power for good short range attack is pointless if a gadget can do the same thing and let you either have an uzi or rifle too. In CT if I was facing an aggro team, I'd sometimes take the shotty, but if I can just take a good PT style tazer, I'd rather have that and an uzi. It's just more versatile.
QuoteObviously the talk of the PT rifle behavior is only if you get rid of uzi/shotgun. If those two weapons stay then you leave the rifle as-is.
Yeah, in which case the scope as a gadget makes little sense. I'm assuming this is a one weapon system. Otherwise really, the tazer doesn't make much sense either.
Quote
Still, you ignored my argument entirely. The only thing you said is that "having everyone with a rifle would be bad," and that "the scope wouldn't be obligatory," using the uzi as your example. We're not talking about a scope on the uzi; we're talking about a scope on the rifle. We already have a system in CT where people can choose different weapons. How is it going to enhance gameplay to move those weapons to a gadget slot?
Quite simply, because it allows more choice.
All mercs should be effective at medium range, being great at close range or long range should be a privilege. By moving these benefits to gadgets, it keeps CT's counter system without going overboard in the way that CT did, where you give up too much. If you took the shotty in CT and the other team didn't go aggro, you were screwed. I mean plain and simple, you were there holding your n00b-tube, and there was nothing you could do to people that just decided to avoid you. So really having no medium/long range ability at all is far too much of a disadvantage. At least with short range superiority as a gadget you can guess wrong and still have a remote chance of winning.
And as I said, sniping is awesome on PC. It really should cost you something to be able to snipe people.
A few points, since I don't feel like copy-pasting everything:
-You are neglecting the fact that the tazer takes up a gadget slot already. That means you have to give something up to "own at close range" as it is. Even with 5 slots, the decision to take tazer is not easy in lieu of frags, mines, spy traps, camnet, backpack, gas mask, and a useful replacement for flares. In CT you can choose to take the uzi/shotgun to circumvent the need for the tazer and thus take other gadgets, but then you sacrifice your long-distance killing potential entirely. Even still, the ability to 1-shot kill a spy at extremely close range is useful no matter what gun you have.
-Your idea allows for less choice because the rifle is a POS without a scope. Again, go ahead and play CT with the rifle and never use snipe. The tazer can be compensated for by the bullcharge, so the scope would effectively become a "must have" gadget. You even concede that "the scope is awesome on the PC." Well, this game is going to be on PC! Your whole "take the tazer for close range, take the scope for long range" mechanic doesn't work because the bullcharge is going to be in the game, so the mercs automatically have a close-range ability. The tazer just allows them to get one that's better. The rifle's scope is the inherent long-range ability (that can be compensated for by frags if you take uzi/shotgun), and you want to take that away.
-You cannot up the ROF of the rifle past PT without making it totally fucked up with a scope. Sure, it's fine without the scope, but uzi + sniper = wayyy op.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 24, 2007, 11:26:08 PM
You cannot up the ROF of the rifle past PT without making it totally fucked up with a scope. Sure, it's fine without the scope, but uzi + sniper = wayyy op.
that's the crucial point. i think it's possible to find a balanced rof, and you don't.
tbh i think that ct/pt rifle un-scoped would do pretty well in medium range with better netcode. just imagine everyone gots the often flamed host-sniper/uzi...
Quote from: Gawain on October 25, 2007, 03:48:06 PM
that's the crucial point. i think it's possible to find a balanced rof, and you don't.
Yeah, I think this is the problem.
It's sort of odd how Spekkio thinks that for whatever reason, it's impossible to get a gun that works well at medium range and has sniping capabilities (with a gadget), yet he's been using the rifle for all these years and not getting run over by aggro spies.
Quote from: Gawain on October 25, 2007, 03:48:06 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on October 24, 2007, 11:26:08 PM
You cannot up the ROF of the rifle past PT without making it totally fucked up with a scope. Sure, it's fine without the scope, but uzi + sniper = wayyy op.
that's the crucial point. i think it's possible to find a balanced rof, and you don't.
tbh i think that ct/pt rifle un-scoped would do pretty well in medium range with better netcode. just imagine everyone gots the often flamed host-sniper/uzi...
It is possible to find a balanced ROF, and we already have it.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 25, 2007, 07:13:36 PM
It is possible to find a balanced ROF, and we already have it.
You're arguing two points that are contradictory.
First, you're saying the RoF is fine.
And you're also saying the rifle sucks without the scope. (indicating that the rifle as a non-sniping weapon is in fact, not fine)
If we go to a one weapon system, those two can't be mutually true.
no he doesn't.
i think that a slight increase in rof would be sufficient to make the rife a balanced medium range weapon. of course, uzi+scope would be imba, and i'm well aware of the fact that it'll be hard to balance the rof so that scope is neither mandatory nor overpowered.
a 3 weapon system wouldn't make much sense, because the shotty is impossible to balance. i'm more in favor of one weapon than two, as it's the main weapon of the merc and it's better if it does always the same damage in medium range so that the spies have something they can rely on. the long-term balance work get's easier this way, too.
Quote from: Gawain on October 25, 2007, 09:31:56 PM
i think that a slight increase in rof would be sufficient to make the rife a balanced medium range weapon. of course, uzi+scope would be imba, and i'm well aware of the fact that it'll be hard to balance the rof so that scope is neither mandatory nor overpowered.
Well I would never really see a scope as being mandatory. The scope has specific uses: Firing long range, and going for headshots on hacking spies, and that's it. Aside from that, the rifle should be built so that it can hold its own as a standalone weapon. If you need to zoom to hit a spy in standard combat, the RoF/damage is clearly not good enough. Sniping should be its own thing.
Now on certain levels, like station, people will want to be sniping, on other levels, like clubhouse, it may not be nearly as mandatory and people could go without. If you want that added boost of being able to snipe a spy who is hacking, then you have to pay a gadget slot and I think that's fine.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 25, 2007, 08:59:32 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on October 25, 2007, 07:13:36 PM
It is possible to find a balanced ROF, and we already have it.
You're arguing two points that are contradictory.
First, you're saying the RoF is fine.
And you're also saying the rifle sucks without the scope. (indicating that the rifle as a non-sniping weapon is in fact, not fine)
If we go to a one weapon system, those two can't be mutually true.
Now you're really fishing:
The ROF is fine given that the rifle has a scope on it no matter what. The rifle's strength is long-range; it's weakness is short-range. This is not inconsistent with the fact that I believe if you increase the ROF to make the rifle a more viable stand-alone weapon, you will make it OP with a scope on it because it will have no weakness. If you leave the ROF alone, you will make it UP without a scope on it because it will have both short and long range weakness.
There is nothing contradictory about that. Get it now?
Quotei think that a slight increase in rof would be sufficient to make the rife a balanced medium range weapon. of course, uzi+scope would be imba, and i'm well aware of the fact that it'll be hard to balance the rof so that scope is neither mandatory nor overpowered.
You (the collective you) still haven't answered the question: why even bother? There is nothing wrong with the way the rifle works in PT (going with a single weapon) or CT (going with 3 more specialized weapons). I can see no way that making the scope a gadget would enhance gameplay, and it would only detract from it by clogging another slot with a mandatory item (either scope or tazer). If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
i'm totally fine with pt/ct rifle as the only weapon and pt tazer as a gadget. in a later step we could also add uzi
thing is, i can imagine that 5 slots for merc still pwn 5 slots for spies balance like; making scope taking a slot and slightely increasing rof could be an elegant solution though i think that the most important factor for balance is map design.
Quotething is, i can imagine that 5 slots for merc still pwn 5 slots for spies balance like; making scope taking a slot and slightely increasing rof could be an elegant solution though i think that the most important factor for balance is map design.
That prediction is impossible to make at this point. First, because fixing the bugs in itself is going to tip balance. Second because we don't have 5 gadgets at this point. The 5 gadget thing was a suggestion to be tested; it is not something set in stone and should not serve as the sole reason for making the scope a gadget. Hell, the problem with 5 gadgets could very well be that triple nade/snare/cams and triple nade/bullet/cams is way too strong. Seefoo's suggestion of giving the mercs gasmask and spies camo inherently might be better than 5 gadgets outright. The more I think about it, the more I like Seefoo's idea. Additionally, as I pointed out earlier, making 5 gadgets only to convert the scope to one of them is counter-productive.
The PT tazer is overboard. A happy medium would be nice.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 25, 2007, 11:03:56 PM
Now you're really fishing:
The ROF is fine given that the rifle has a scope on it no matter what. The rifle's strength is long-range; it's weakness is short-range.
Which is fine for a 3 weapon system, but not good for a one weapon system, where one gun is supposed to do it all. In a 3 weapon system, you want a gun that's decent at all three ranges, but not really great anywhere. Then you can add gadgets to make the merc better at certain areas.
It makes no sense to say that by default all mercs are weak at short range and awesome at long range. Because some players don't want that. Most players just want a decent gun that kills spies with its base autofire. So if you're relying on everyone to be a sniper, that's a mistake.
Quote
This is not inconsistent with the fact that I believe if you increase the ROF to make the rifle a more viable stand-alone weapon, you will make it OP with a scope on it because it will have no weakness.
If it didn't cost a gadget slot to get the scope, it would be overpowered. That's why it costs a gadget slot, to balance out the fact that you pay something to be able to snipe at long range. So maybe now you don't have frags or don't have mines or don't have something else that would otherwise hinder the spy?
QuoteYou (the collective you) still haven't answered the question: why even bother? There is nothing wrong with the way the rifle works in PT (going with a single weapon) or CT (going with 3 more specialized weapons). I can see no way that making the scope a gadget would enhance gameplay, and it would only detract from it by clogging another slot with a mandatory item (either scope or tazer). If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
All this stuff applies to a single gun system, so you can stop talking about 3 guns. This is at least the second time I've said this and I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
As for the single gun, it makes no sense to have awesome sniping capability and mediocre medium range as the default. As a merc you need to be good at medium range, but sniping and great close combat is something extra.
It makes no sense to try to stick with the CT style of having the rifle's weakness be short range if you don't even get a choice of a balanced weapon. Medium range has to be the default, because it's where most of the action takes place. People should get a balanced weapon by default, reasonably good at all ranges (similar to the uzi), and if they want to add long range or better short range, that can be a gadget.
That makes a hell of a lot more sense than just telling people "learn to snipe n00bs, you're gonna play the game my way, or you're gonna suck ass!" Because that's basically what you're saying. The rifle pretty much sucks and it's only redeeming quality is that you can snipe people. So going to a one gun system means that all mercs have to be snipers as their main means of killing spies.
Screw that. Maybe you like sniping as your playstyle and that's fine, but gimping everyone else with a crappy general purpose gun so you can keep your beloved sniper scope for free is completely illogical.
Sure, we can have a sniper rifle as a choice if we stick with 3 weapons, but I'll be damned if the default gun is going to suck normally and have sniping as the only redeeming factor. Sniping can be optional, holding your own up at medium and close range isn't. Don't force your playstyle on everyone else.
You're ignoring something completely: my suggestion on giving one gun that is a sniper rifle is based upon PT, where I believe that giving mercs just a sniper rifle was superior than weakening the rifle and specializing the weapons even more. This is why I kept referencing the game.
In other words, this is not a new idea. It is a reversion to an old system that worked better than the new system. The PT rifle is about as perfectly balanced as you can get it. It has superb long-range capability in the hands of a skillfull player and sufficient enough at medium range given that ability. The mercs have an inherent buff to short range via the bullcharge. If that is insufficient, you can also take the tazer.
Furthermore, I don't believe we need to incorporate uber spray weapons like the uzi or a juiced up rifle because some people might not be able to aim. lrn2play. For the record, I'm not even close to one of the best snipers in the game. I'm in favor of this system because it rewards skill.
Your entire post is theoretical bullshit.
spekkio you're right, without shotty and uzi a "happy medium" tazer would be tempting enough to take.
indeed the pt sniper was balanced quite perfectly. anyways the sniper rifle will be way stronger for midrange (unzoomed) with a better mouse implementation (smaller mouse grid, fps > 31) and less lagg bs. making scope take a slot only came to my mind because it seems quite possible with 5 slots. but when i think closer on it, probably the spies get more advantages from 5 slots because the mercs don't have any more lethal gadgets than tazer.
maybe triple nades should be banned generally. i'm well aware that you totally give up either stickies or recon for it, but it gives too much aggro possibilities to a single spy (2 spies can always complement one another with different kind of nades). if triple nades stay in the game, the tazer should be closer to the pt one.
we could also make the close quarter combat more sophisticated and allow pushing the merc into the arms of the other spy for everyone (host only atm) (and keep the animation after charging of course) so that the tazer becomes more interesting.
Well, this is where seefoo's idea gets interesting. Triple nades and camo don't particularly go well together, so you're still giving up something integral to use them (two of snares, bullets, or cams).
There are people who really prefer a specific weapon for a specific map. There's no reason to not include a high rof weapon and a shotgun. Levels where sniping is practically useless it would be better to opt for powerful short/medium range weapon if your encounters are going to be mostly short range. Yes I know none of the PT, CT maps are designed in such a way that sniping is useless but those maps aren't going to be included in PS so we can't base the decision off of that information.
To that I say two things:
-Wouldn't we presume that PS maps incorporate many of the concepts from PT/CT maps that worked? In other words, it would be hard to conceive a map where sniping had little or no use.
-The tazer, if made viable, will more than compensate for any claustrophobic maps.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 26, 2007, 12:54:54 AM
To that I say two things:
-Wouldn't we presume that PS maps incorporate many of the concepts from PT/CT maps that worked? In other words, it would be hard to conceive a map where sniping had little or no use.
-The tazer, if made viable, will more than compensate for any claustrophobic maps.
A map that was, for example, an office building with lots of hallways, cubicles and offices would provide a much better environment for a shotgun. In an environment where the spy can duck behind a cubicle wall, into an office, a corner or behind any number of office machines it would be better to have a weapon that is just point and shoot rather than the .5 second delay between scoping and being able to fire. In half a second a spy can easily move out of line of sight or damn close.
PS will involve a lot more stealth and one of the ways to make this possible is to create larger or more detailed rooms with more objects and shadows to move through intensifying the cat and mouse game. We have a much better engine to work with and it will allow us to create much more detailed true to life environments. UT3 is designed to display massively detailed levels with characters ranging from 5k-8k polygons and in far greater numbers than the maximum of 4 being rendered as a spy in 3rd person, only 3 when a merc. This leaves a lot of untapped performance potential that can be used to create some pretty fantastic environments. I'm actually really really (yes two reallys) looking forward to completing one of the maps I created for CT but never finished due to the lack of vertex animation available in the editor. This will of course have to wait until PS is done but I'm pretty excited about the level of detail I'm going to be able to achieve with unreal3.
My point is that a cluttered map like that might not be very fun to play in general.
So, after all of that have we come to the conclusion that its pointless to make scope a gadget?
Also, maybe we should be focusing on something a little more productive seeing as how the game is far from having definitive models/systems.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 26, 2007, 05:12:12 AM
My point is that a cluttered map like that might not be very fun to play in general.
If it was overkill, yeah I agree. If it is kept within a semblance of reality and not just tons of stuff strewn about, then I think it would force mercs to step it up a notch and be more vigilant. With the stealthy nature of PS (no pun intended) I think the players, mercs especially, will find it to be much more tense.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 26, 2007, 12:54:54 AM
To that I say two things:
-Wouldn't we presume that PS maps incorporate many of the concepts from PT/CT maps that worked? In other words, it would be hard to conceive a map where sniping had little or no use.
-The tazer, if made viable, will more than compensate for any claustrophobic maps.
Honestly, I can think of a few maps where sniping has little use.
-Aqua (About all I can see is sniping pirates, eitherfor the cheap 1 shot lag kill from the greek bridge or from tech walkway)
-Clubhouse (you can kinda snipe the garden objectives, but that's about it)
-Bank (really no great sniping opportunites here)
-Museum (since most of the action takes place in cafe and corridor you don't really see much sniping on this one either)
-Krauser or cinema weren't really great snipers map.
In fact, most of the maps had only a few small zones where you may want to actually snipe. Aside from that it was mostly just host-lag headshots while the spy was hacking an objective (and really those weren't very fun). The only true sniping maps I can think of are Vertigo (where sniping was pretty much essential), polar base and Steel Squat (which was the king of snipe whoring maps). Other maps had little zones where you could snipe, like hospital or river mall and the rest of the map didn't reward true sniping much. You were granted always open to the hacking headshot, but that's not really sniping most of the time, It's more just memorizing the spies position and rounding a corner to take him by surprise and lag killing him.
In most maps, I really do think of sniping as optional. In fact most of the time the sniper rifle is most dangerous is just in the hands of the host, where he can pick you off before you know what's going on. Like the clubhouse garden snipe or sniping the guy in pirates.
Aside from the three sniper maps: Vertigo, polar and steel, what other maps do you seriously need a sniper rifle on?
As far as the scope, I think the corner lag kill ought to be worth a gadget in itself, since that's a real powerful ability you wouldn't have otherwise. The other thing would be to make people have to remain stationary while sniping to prevent or at least weaken that move.
There's actually a huge power gap between a guy who uses the rifle without zooming and a guy who is an expert sniper. The problem is that you really can't get a balanced RoF as long as the scope is automatic. If you make it too high, it takes away the sniper's classic weakness in CT, which was close combat. If you make it too low, it screws over people who don't snipe. The fact that you guys seem to fear uzi + scope (even as a gadget), sort of indicates to me that you're probably going to shortchange the rifle's regular combat capabilities in favor of treating its big ability as being a sniping weapon. Well, this is a one weapon system, and not everybody wants to be a sniper. I almost always took the uzi and didn't bother with the rifle, except for some of those rare sniping maps. Even in PT, I rarely recall myself going into zoom mode, except on vertigo or hospital outside. I don't want to get handed an inferior weapon with the balancing idea that it has a sniper scope. Because most of the time, I'd rather just be better for normal combat.
I mean, even if we're going to make scope integral, then at the very least have a gadget that ups the regular damage or increases the RoF of the normal rifle.
Quote-Aqua (About all I can see is sniping pirates, eitherfor the cheap 1 shot lag kill from the greek bridge or from tech walkway)
-Clubhouse (you can kinda snipe the garden objectives, but that's about it)
-Bank (really no great sniping opportunites here)
-Museum (since most of the action takes place in cafe and corridor you don't really see much sniping on this one either)
-Krauser or cinema weren't really great snipers map.
I nominate this for the SCLamers idiotic post award.
Aqua: you can snipe every bomb but one from the greek door. You can snipe every bomb but one from the tank disk door. That means that you never actually have to go into tech to get the bomb if you have the rifle.
You can snipe spies cooping into office.
You can snipe spies as they're running with the disk down that long corridor leading to pirates.
Club: You're joking, right? You have to be joking...
You can snipe garden obj without leaving the elevator
You can stand in garden and snipe both upper and lower garden objectives
You can snipe spies through the paper walls in tea/lunch
You can snipe a spy hacking in steam from the doorway
You can snipe spies coming in from MH
You can snipe spies coming in from garden
You can stand at the back of the long hallway, near the doors to the back, and snipe spies as they try to enter from MH
Bank:
You plant mines under the entrance vents and snipe spies as they try to get in. This is one of the reasons that this map is completely broken.
Museum:
Again, you have to be joking. Museum has a lot of open space, which is much better for sniping than any other weapon. The best way to stop the inside/outside cafe runaround is to snipe the spies.
You can snipe spies in the ceiling as they come in the map
You can snipe spies as they try to run down the corridors to ex/mono
You can snipe spies as they try to run back with the disk
You can snipe at bombs in ex/mono
Krauser: ...
Ok, I'm tired of doing this and my lunch break is almost over. It's obvious already that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 26, 2007, 07:44:02 PM
Aqua: you can snipe every bomb but one from the greek door. You can snipe every bomb but one from the tank disk door. That means that you never actually have to go into tech to get the bomb if you have the rifle.
You can snipe spies cooping into office.
You can snipe spies as they're running with the disk down that long corridor leading to pirates.
Well okay cool. So you've got a lot more good sniping spots than I do. That's fine. That's your play style.
I admit, I'm a noob sniper. I always took the uzi, so I don't know all this stuff.
Still you're only actually supporting the idea that scope is powerful enough to be a gadget.
How are you going to get a balanced ROF that compensates for all that sniper stuff without making scope a gadget?
Seriously. That's a lot of shit.
dude, the fact that you have no sniping skills (no wonder for a console player) is no reason at all for giving the sniper better mid range fire power.
the pt rifle + tazer was balanced kinda well (lame tazer necessary to even with ss+jump and because of the lack of berserk).
around-the-corner-headshots should be no problem at all if you use spy bullets or leave in time.
steel squat a sniper whore map? you sound like you got problems with it, so how about having your partner cover you or simply hack shutters? you could also hack onlyl for a 1-3s at unexpected places etc.
Quote from: Gawain on October 26, 2007, 11:29:36 PM
dude, the fact that you have no sniping skills (no wonder for a console player) is no reason at all for giving the sniper better mid range fire power.
Here's the main problem:
In a one gun system, it's not "The sniper rifle", it's just the only f'ing weapon you've got, so you've got to live with it.
As I've said before, if you're playing CT, then that's fine. Snipers take the rifle and people without sniping skills take the uzi. That's cool and I'm fine with it. In a one weapon system, I don't like other people forcing their playstyle on me.
I realize you guys may like the sniper rifle, that's great. I would rather have a medium range power weapon though at the expense of sniping, since sniping isn't something I do too often.
But anyway, since this discussion isn't' going anywhere, I'm just going to say that I'd like to stick wtih CT's 3 weapon system if we can't agree on what to do here. The CT system worked pretty well, and it beats going to a single weapon system if it's going to force different playstyles on people. The CT system was nice because everyone got to do what they wanted. If you wanted to be a sniper, you took rifle, if you wanted to have an all around balanced weapon, you took uzi, if you liked to blast aggro spies in the face, you took shotgun.
Quote
around-the-corner-headshots should be no problem at all if you use spy bullets or leave in time.
I dunno, I have a lot of trouble with them. Especially in laggy games. Not to mention you can't afford to always take spybullets on every map.
Quote
steel squat a sniper whore map? you sound like you got problems with it, so how about having your partner cover you or simply hack shutters? you could also hack onlyl for a 1-3s at unexpected places etc.
Yeah I suck at Steel squat, I'll be very honest. That's by far my worst map and I play like a complete noob on that map. I'm pretty good at other maps though. Personally I think that Steel Squat's design sucks, but that's just my opinion. If the shutters actually stayed closed, the map might be halfway decent. But the fact that the hack only lasts like 15 seconds and leaves you completely vulnerable on the bottom level of the building makes it almost pointless to try. Only if you don't try, there's a sniper shot or frag coming your way the moment you start hacking.
the funny thing is that steel squat is balanced very well...
the sniper rifle is quite balanced because the spies can prevent someone from using the scope by ss on the head or chaff; you can kick him out of scope with flash. a merc in sniper mode is also more vulnerable for grabs, cams etc and sneaking past him due to less mobility and smaller fov. the delay it takes to get into scope mode allows the spy enough time to ss you if you don't expect him.
you simply don't have all of that tactical complications with uzi/shotty.
@ Invisible: If you always take uzi, and are a noob sniper, then why bother putting any input on this topic? What do you care if the scope is optional or not? You're going to take uzi practically everytime regardless, which imo is a complete lack of skill. SPRAY SPRAY 5PR4Y/LAG LAG L46
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 27, 2007, 08:12:56 AM
@ Invisible: If you always take uzi, and are a noob sniper, then why bother putting any input on this topic? What do you care if the scope is optional or not? You're going to take uzi practically everytime regardless, which imo is a complete lack of skill. SPRAY SPRAY 5PR4Y/LAG LAG L46
qfe
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 26, 2007, 07:50:55 PM
Well okay cool. So you've got a lot more good sniping spots than I do. That's fine. That's your play style.
Playstyle has nothing to do with it. Good players are going to discover this stuff and use it.
QuoteI admit, I'm a noob sniper. I always took the uzi, so I don't know all this stuff.
So then you really should stfu about the topic.
QuoteStill you're only actually supporting the idea that scope is powerful enough to be a gadget.
How are you going to get a balanced ROF that compensates for all that sniper stuff without making scope a gadget?
Seriously. That's a lot of shit.
Umm, how about you put it into PS virtually unchanged from PT? Seems pretty balanced then. Or did you not play PT?
Your entire argument boils down to this: "I'm a n00b who can't aim, so I want a gun that has a super high ROF so I can spray all over the place like an idiot. We'll just move the scope to a gadget, and that won't make the gun overpowered in any way when people actually can aim. We won't mention the fact that I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to gauging the relative strength of the rifle."
Not trying to turn this into a PC vs XBox war, but you really ought to get more PC playing experience with CT before forming an opinion on a topic like this. PS is going to be on the PC, not Xbox.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 27, 2007, 08:12:56 AM
@ Invisible: If you always take uzi, and are a noob sniper, then why bother putting any input on this topic? What do you care if the scope is optional or not? You're going to take uzi practically everytime regardless, which imo is a complete lack of skill. SPRAY SPRAY 5PR4Y/LAG LAG L46
Westfall wins the thread.
Quote from: Gawain on October 27, 2007, 12:10:51 AM
the funny thing is that steel squat is balanced very well...
the sniper rifle is quite balanced because the spies can prevent someone from using the scope by ss on the head or chaff; you can kick him out of scope with flash. a merc in sniper mode is also more vulnerable for grabs, cams etc and sneaking past him due to less mobility and smaller fov. the delay it takes to get into scope mode allows the spy enough time to ss you if you don't expect him.
you simply don't have all of that tactical complications with uzi/shotty.
Exactly.
Just because someone uses uzi doesn't mean they suck at sniping. It depends on what they are used to and what the situaton/map is.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 27, 2007, 11:21:30 PM
Just because someone uses uzi doesn't mean they suck at sniping. It depends on what they are used to and what the situaton/map is.
situation? you can't change weapons ingame...
map (/strategy)? hell yeah. if at least one player doesn't take sniper on factory/polar/steel your team simply sux.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 27, 2007, 11:21:30 PM
Just because someone uses uzi doesn't mean they suck at sniping. It depends on what they are used to and what the situaton/map is.
Buff the tazer, remove the uzi. Problem solved.
wtf? Where did my giant post go?
When did uzi become such a problem anyways? It has no long range capabilities. If a merc has an uzi/shotty, don't get close to them. Problem solved. But I do agree tazer should be buffed, atleast with its range. When I said situation I meant who you are playing against and what their playstyles are. If they are an aggro bunch of spies, then you should bring uzi/shotty. If they are a stealthy group of spies that stay away from mercs, bring a sniper.
I advice to control+a and copy before submitting large posts.
Yeah I summarized it here.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 12:53:28 AM
When did uzi become such a problem anyways? It has no long range capabilities. If a merc has an uzi/shotty, don't get close to them. Problem solved. But I do agree tazer should be buffed, atleast with its range. When I said situation I meant who you are playing against and what their playstyles are. If they are an aggro bunch of spies, then you should bring uzi/shotty. If they are a stealthy group of spies that stay away from mercs, bring a sniper.
Think about that.
uzi is too strong as it's effective 90% of the time the two sides get sight of another. the distances between merc and spy occuring on most maps (exceptions: vertigo, polar) are simply not that huge. with more scattering and less magazine capacity it may be balanced, but atm the only reason it's not used that much are the lagg issues.
there is really no need for more than one weapon as more mid range power would always be imbalanced and you can boost close combat power with tazer.
The reason that I don't use uzi that much IS NOT BECAUSE OF LAG! It is because there are times where spies are very far from me and there is no chance that I would even lay one bullet on the spy, even with a lot of bullets and precise aim. Ex: Deftech outside. You always will see a spy on the other side of the area, sub is totally useless here in this example. A sniper however, you could take him out easily.
People would rather be safe away from spies and sniping them from afar, then if spies were right up in their grills with a possibility of them getting grabbed with a sub. Yes, tazer needs a boost. But, if you only have 4 fucking gadget slots because you have a forced gadget ( camnet ), then there wouldn't be any room for it anyways. Why? Because 99% of mercs take the same loadout - Frags, mines, backpack, gasmask. No room for tazer, so, sub should be kept imo. But, if you add 5 gadget slots ( with no gadget forcing bs ) then you would have a welcome spot for a tazer and a sniper combo.
See what I mean?
deftech is a terrible example, the balance on this map is totally screwed.
Yea, the addition of mask made it beyond repair I think.
It wasn't the fact that it was balanced! It was the fact that you couldn't do shit to someone from that range, totally missed the point.
But yeah, I agree, it was totally messed up.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 27, 2007, 07:50:41 PM
Playstyle has nothing to do with it. Good players are going to discover this stuff and use it.
Yeah it does. It's like saying "Lets remove flashbangs, because I don't go aggro." For my playstyle, I wouldn't even care. For people like Mr.Mic who routinely triple nade as a loadout, that's going to hurt.
Similarly, not everyone runs a long distance sniping merc strategy. Some people prefer to be up in the spy's face, covering locations at short range.
QuoteUmm, how about you put it into PS virtually unchanged from PT? Seems pretty balanced then. Or did you not play PT?
I played PT. Thing is that sniping has evolved a lot since PT. Back in PT we were all learning the game, and really, you didn't see the kind of sniping uses that you see in CT now. While PT itself hasn't changed, the tactics have evolved to the point where sniping is a lot more powerful than originally intended.
Quote
Your entire argument boils down to this: "I'm a n00b who can't aim, so I want a gun that has a super high ROF so I can spray all over the place like an idiot.
I don't even care about RoF, they can make an uzi weapon that has the same ROF as a rifle, but just does more damage. Whatever. So long as it's more effective at medium range.
Quote
Not trying to turn this into a PC vs XBox war, but you really ought to get more PC playing experience with CT before forming an opinion on a topic like this. PS is going to be on the PC, not Xbox.
I've played CT on PC quite a bit. All my PT experience is on PC pretty much. Even on PC, I just was never much of a sniper. Aside from Vertigo, I don't really remember using the sniper much on PT against good spies. Granted I didn't go out of my way to find super effective spots, but then like I said, that's not really my playstyle.
Quote
the sniper rifle is quite balanced because the spies can prevent someone from using the scope by ss on the head or chaff; you can kick him out of scope with flash. a merc in sniper mode is also more vulnerable for grabs, cams etc and sneaking past him due to less mobility and smaller fov. the delay it takes to get into scope mode allows the spy enough time to ss you if you don't expect him.
Are you kidding? The delay is almost negligible to raise the rifle. In a somewhat laggy game, the host gets into sniper mode before you can even effectively hear the sniper "click" to respond to it.
Seriously, this is the PC version of the game we're talking about, not the xbox one... I know you've seen some uber snipers, probably better snipers than I have. It generally goes like sniper click, half second, dead. Sniping is crazy powerful. There's really no great counter. Taking out the SS generally just makes you more of a stationary target. I always found the best way to beat snipers is to run around and keep constantly rolling to reduce the chance of a head shot. Aside from that, generally if you ever stop moving to take a shot, they get your head first, unless you're very lucky.
And seriously, what's up with the uzi hatred anyway? So some people prefer to just have a gun that sprays bullets, who cares? That's their playstyle, let them. Apparently they're missing out on all the uber sniping opportunities anyway. In return they get to kill you better at medium range.
As far as the infamous lag issues... the uzi doesn't lag me much at all, both on PC and on xbox. Maybe your graphics settings are set too high and it overloads your card or your internet connection just needs an upgrade. I don't know, but I haven't experienced the uber lag effects that you guys are talking about and my graphics card is hardly uber (then I don't play with maxed settings either). Sure, host uzi is a bitch, but so is host rifle. Having a 0 ping is going to be a big advantage... with any weapon. The uzi doesn't gain any magical advantage the other weapons don't. On any side, the host is an advantage. Host grabs, host uzi, host rifle... yeah the host rocks... hopefully a good dedicated server program can fix that. The host uzi isn't even as bad as host rifle, because at least the uzi requires you to be at reasonably close range. So it's possible to hear the merc's footsteps or otherwise spot him with spybullets before he gets close enough for a host uzi kill. About your only argument against the uzi is that it's some no aim noob weapon and isn't elitist enough for you all.
I haven't seen the uber uzi problem you are all whining about. If a "noob" such as myself can routinely play against and beat people using the uzi, I think you guys can too. Or maybe you're just getting rid of the uzi because you have trouble beating it?
QuoteI haven't seen the uber uzi problem you are all whining about. If a "noob" such as myself can routinely play against and beat people using the uzi, I think you guys can too. Or maybe you're just getting rid of the uzi because you have trouble beating it?
Nice attempt at a counter. I assume you play X-Box? Uzi is hard to counter because on PC, if a spy gets shot with the UBER LEET UZI, they are practically frozen and can't get out of the ridiculous ray of bullets. For instance: If I were to hack outside cafe on Museum and a merc came around the corner and sprayed me with uzi, every attempt I make to get the fuck out is completely worthless, because you really just freeze. The problem is with the hit animation. When you get shot with rifle your screen turns a little red. When you get sprayed with uzi, your screen turns red over and over at a rapid pace causing insta-pwn-death.
Again, my point is that uzi takes no skill. "Oh, theres a spy over there": SPRAY 360 bullets. Jesus...real talent there. You might as well be playing the game on "easy mode" A headshot is only so powerful if you can make it happen. If you miss, then it wasn't all that powerful now was it? AND, if you are a smart spy, you should be watching your back, your partner should be watching your back, or you should have spy bullets down AT ALL TIMES.
I've beaten teams when they were using uzi too. As soon as that game was over, I ask them politely not to use it again because it lags too hard. And no, its not my hardware. My PC meets more than the requirements...easily.
I'm sorry, but uzi either needs to be cut down a lot, or just not even put in the game. In my eyes, people that use it are pretty much noobs because they can't handle the rifle (aka a real gun for this game).
Just because a spy's screen goes red doesn't mean there is OmG SUpEr UBEr LAGG BS!!11!1 It means that there is a problem that ubi overlooked, rapid fire. Don't get rid of rapid fire, get rid of the red screen. Then, you won't be frozen, you can see what is goin on, and you can escape. Just fix the Uzi's "problems", don't remove it completely. That is like removing the frag because sometimes it can be overpowered and have little glitches ( insta nade ). Totally stupid logic. Just fix it.
UZI DOES NOT EQUAL NOOB! UZI EQUALS CLOSE RANGE COMBAT POWER THAT SNIPER CANNOT ACHIEVE! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!
At times, I will use the uzi. NOT because I suck at sniping, but because certain maps/strategies/spy playing style require CLOSE RANGE COMBAT. In that case, I would rather not have something that can kill from long range combat, but I would rather have something that can deal damage up close.
QuoteUZI DOES NOT EQUAL NOOB! UZI EQUALS CLOSE RANGE COMBAT POWER THAT SNIPER CANNOT ACHIEVE!
You must be a big Deathmatch player.
Quote
At times, I will use the uzi. NOT because I suck at sniping, but because certain maps/strategies/spy playing style require CLOSE RANGE COMBAT. In that case, I would rather not have something that can kill from long range combat, but I would rather have something that can deal damage up close.
What is the bull-charge/berserk for? Granted you knock a spy down, his partners there, and you get grabbed because of the animation. This would happen regardless if you bullcharge with an uzi. Rifle actually fires pretty well if you have a good aim. Realize how big the spy really is.
Sniping feature is only really there to counter what the uzi can't do in terms of long range. Uzi is completely useless when it comes to this style game (As Spekkio has already stated). What the fuck do I know though.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 28, 2007, 06:53:10 AM
Nice attempt at a counter. I assume you play X-Box? Uzi is hard to counter because on PC, if a spy gets shot with the UBER LEET UZI, they are practically frozen and can't get out of the ridiculous ray of bullets. For instance: If I were to hack outside cafe on Museum and a merc came around the corner and sprayed me with uzi, every attempt I make to get the fuck out is completely worthless
Thats your problem, you dont want to change your playstyle, so you want to get rid of uzi. Lemme guess if the merc had rifle (like in situation above) you would wait hacking as long as you can, then freeze him and run away...I* guess that most ppl here flaming on uzi are just aggro players. OMG ppl if some dudes want to take this wpn why you want to forbid it. Best way to counter uzi is to avoid fighting merc. My advice - when you see uzi guy, just switch to stealth.
just showes us again that the console players don't know shit about ct.
a good spy will taze you and get obstacles/walls or at least distance between him and you. simply try how far a spy can run/dive in the time the merc is shocked, and you'll see that you have no chance of killing him with uzi unless lagg or hit animation bs kicks in; the sniper rifle is your best chance to kill a fleeing spy. good spies won't allow you to shoot at them at medium range without obstacles or smoke/flash/chaff. uzi is stronger when you surprise the spy in medium/close range, but this is almost impossible against good spies since they use hbs/bullets and have a general idea where the mercs might be. with the limited range of hbs, you have a better chance of unexpectedly killing a spy with longs range shots.
it's also not too weak in medium or close range without laggs as you may have noticed playing as host. if you need scattering and some form of lock-on against aggro, you should try using the laser.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 28, 2007, 06:53:10 AM
I'm sorry, but uzi either needs to be cut down a lot, or just not even put in the game. In my eyes, people that use it are pretty much noobs because they can't handle the rifle (aka a real gun for this game).
Jeez man, we get the point, all uzi players are skilles noobs. So the reason you dont take it is because you can use the challenge and take the more PRO rifle? Bullshit, you take it because it suits your playstyle better, and because you think its the better weapon. Why do all the top teams use the sniper? Because they need the challenge? NO, because they think its the better weapon! I take the uzi because it suits my playstyle better, and i hate agro spies.
So you should praise the uzi players for playing with an inferior weapon instead of flaming them.
You hate uzi lag, i hate headshots.
If PS strives to be a clone, they should be including the shotty and uzi. Players are just gonna pick the weapon that suits them the best. Or depending on what their mate carries, or what favours the map, or what kinda team they are up against. Lets give the players the option to choose that. Uzi and shotty lack the distance, so they make that up with close range power. I always had to run alot more through the maps, because my uzi didnt have the range, thus leaving me exposed to grabs and cams more often. I had the advantage on close range. So good spies would see that, and keep their distance.
And again, yes we know it by now, all uzi players are noobs.
if you want advantage in close range, use tazer.
and no, it's not a clone of ct, it's rather taking the best of pt and ct.
Quote from: a3c0i3d on October 28, 2007, 01:43:19 PM
Jeez man, we get the point, all uzi players are skilles noobs. So the reason you dont take it is because you can use the challenge and take the more PRO rifle? Bullshit, you take it because it suits your playstyle better, and because you think its the better weapon. Why do all the top teams use the sniper? Because they need the challenge? NO, because they think its the better weapon! I take the uzi because it suits my playstyle better, and i hate agro spies.
So you should praise the uzi players for playing with an inferior weapon instead of flaming them.
You hate uzi lag, i hate headshots.
Well said.
If people consider the rifle so good, let em use it. If other people like the uzi, let them use it. If the uzi is such a noob gun, then "pros" shouldn't mind fighting against it.
And seriously, I don't get these uzi lag issues. I have pretty much no problem getting away from the uzi. It's seriously no big deal. Obviously, if you stand in the same spot for a second at close range against host uzi you'll get torn to peices, but it's not like you can stand in the same spot against a sniper either.
You guys need to understand two things:
-I am not even an above-average sniper in CT, although I could swear a lot of the times my crosshair is on the spy and shitty hit detection is the cause. But that's neither here nor there. There are people who get headshots much more often than me, and they're playing with the same shitty hit detection.
-I use the rifle primarily because, as Westfall stated, the uzi is broken. Not omg it's overpowered broken; it's broken because it causes way too much lag and freezing. If you get shot full-auto with the rifle, you have the opportunity to take your gun out and shock the merc. If you get shot full-auto with the uzi, your spy freezes like a cerebral paulsey victim having an epileptic seizure. It gets even worse when the host uses it, particularly if the ping is near 100, which isn't high at all.
You might hate headshots (I really can't think of anyone who likes being killed by a headshot), but that's not a broken mechanic. That is a player killing you with superior skill. Furthermore, you guys are drastically blowing out of proportion the amount of times you get headshotted before you even see/hear a merc raise his rifle up. If you are playing in a solid server with < 150 ping, this simply doesn't happen. You are taking something that happened to you a few times in your limited experience on the PC and assuming that it's the norm. Need I remind you that you already conceded that you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject? Uzi lag is something that is just beyond any player's control, and it still occurs in relatively low-ping servers. There is no skill in it whatsoever.
-I do not use the shotgun because it doesn't hit where the crosshair points, literally. If you shoot it against any wall, you will notice the bullet spread is displayed randomly around the perimeter of the crosshair. Randomness = terrible for gameplay.
I am for a single-rifle system because it rewards skill. Invisible, in your rants about not being able to snipe spies, you are conceding exactly that. The uzi, through its high magazine capacity and high ROF, in addition to the fact that it makes spies convulse like a derelict, makes up for the fact that you simply suck at aiming.
This really has nothing to do with playstyle at all. If you like an up-close playstyle, then you can take the presumably fixed tazer and utilize the rifle's full-auto capability in addition to the bullcharge and berserk.
Skill gaps should not be able to be compensated for by different equipment items, ever. For any game to appeal to competitive gamers, you need to have weapons that reward skill over anything else.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 04:38:45 PM
This really has nothing to do with playstyle at all. If you like an up-close playstyle, then you can take the presumably fixed tazer and utilize the rifle's full-auto capability in addition to the bullcharge and berserk.
If the uzi is even in the game, we can presume it will be fixed too...
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 04:38:45 PM
Need I remind you that you already conceded that you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject?
huh?
I played more than a 1000 (pc) hours scct, and i have no idea??? sure.
Let them for gods sake "fix" the uzi in PS, or remove it completely then, so all the winers can find something else to wine about.
Oh and for westfall: UZI PLAYERS SUCK!!! (so you dont have to say it again).
I was talking to invisibleman.
to spekkio:
srry my fault.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 02:11:44 PM
if you want advantage in close range, use tazer.
and no, it's not a clone of ct, it's rather taking the best of pt and ct.
Taking the best from CT and PT you say?
Well i do not know how people see that game, but the really good thing with these games are the options you have.
Meaning if you are a aggroteam all the way you will have to prepare yourself on meeting UZI/shotty combos and vice versa.
People who arent fully capable of doing the whole "sniper" thing should also have an option when you get flash,smoke chaff combos against you.
I hate getting gunned down by a UZI or a shotty but i still KNOW that if i keep my distance they will bot bother me at all.
Offcourse i see alot of you who think you can do the same style no matter what, just aggro the hell out of anything. (resulting in death, and serious amounts of whining about the uzi being a noobweapon.
I would vote stick with all weapons to keep the game balanced/deep. Narrowing down the options in a MOD will kinda ruin the whole concept.
I second this.
Ya you say stay from uzi and you will be fine or you say go stealth you aggro mofo. Hahahahaha. What stealth are you talking about. Unfortunately there is no stealth in this game. Having EAX and MT is enough to find you anywhere on the map, but you are even no longer safe on the ceilings thanks to EMF ghosting.
You can't stay away from merc, at least with the current maps design. On a map like museum, its just simply impossible to keep distance with mercs, because of how small the rooms and everything is. Even on most maps which favor stealth you can't avoid contact with mercs. Thats just how the game works. Sooner or later you will have to shock, punch, try to grab. Shotgun is more or less ok, because of really low range it has, yet it sucks with its random blasts. How can you call something skill if its totally random? Uzi is only useless on really big maps, but there are only few of them. Rifle bullets do as much damage as uzis, and if you cant aim with rifle thats just your problem, learn to aim.
QuoteIf the uzi is such a noob gun, then "pros" shouldn't mind fighting against it.
Its noob because it requires no skill. Its like this guy sucks at using camo so lets give him an uber camo which doesnt make noise and has unlimited energy. Same with uzi, omg I cant hit shit with rifle, give me an uber weapon.
QuoteWhy do all the top teams use the sniper?
Because uzi is broken.
QuoteSo you should praise the uzi players for playing with an inferior weapon instead of flaming them.
Why should I praise someone who makes my gaming experience full of lag. Maybe you should get off your host and play once as client.
QuoteI always had to run alot more through the maps, because my uzi didnt have the range, thus leaving me exposed to grabs and cams more often.
Good luck trying to grab merc with uzi and mt on.
QuoteThats your problem, you dont want to change your playstyle, so you want to get rid of uzi. Lemme guess if the merc had rifle (like in situation above) you would wait hacking as long as you can, then freeze him and run away...I* guess that most ppl here flaming on uzi are just aggro players. OMG ppl if some dudes want to take this wpn why you want to forbid it. Best way to counter uzi is to avoid fighting merc. My advice - when you see uzi guy, just switch to stealth.
I'll be happy to play you so that you can show me your uber stealth playstyle which renders uzi useless.
I guess I'm a noob if I can't do that.
So, from what I have read ( mainly from Gawain) Uzi only kills inexperienced spies. So why the fuck are you even worrying about it if you are so good in the first place? If "skilled" players can shock mercs and get away soooo fast just like you say, why do you worry about the short range of the weapon? Bullshit people. Uzi kills from close range - DON'T GET WITHIN IT'S RANGE! FIXED PROBLEM EFFING SOLVED. Just take out the red screen effect and you guys shouldn't have to worry about a thing.
And if I'm such a noob and you're such a pro, then howcome I have such an easier time staying away from uzi? I don't feel like I have to be close to a merc to win a match. Does this mean that you are aggro players? Does it mean that because Uzi is such a good counter to aggro, you all don't want it in the game?
Uzi is one of the best parts from CT imo. It stops spies from being absolutely retarded and run up to you. Which for some reason, hasn't sunk into your heads yet, that you should try and stay away from mercs.
QuoteSo, from what I have read ( mainly from Gawain) Uzi only kills inexperienced spies. So why the fuck are you even worrying about it if you are so good in the first place? If "skilled" players can shock mercs and get away soooo fast just like you say, why do you worry about the short range of the weapon? Bullshit people.
Did you just pull it out of your ass?
QuoteAnd if I'm such a noob and you're such a pro, then howcome I have such an easier time staying away from uzi? I don't feel like I have to be close to a merc to win a match.
I don't know who you are winning against and why you have easy time with it.
QuoteUzi is one of the best parts from CT imo. It stops spies from being absolutely retarded and run up to you. Which for some reason, hasn't sunk into your heads yet, that you should try and stay away from mercs.
If you can't stop spy from running to you without uzi then you are retarded.
So are you telling me that you think the rifle is better than uzi at close range? Did you just pull that out of your ass? If uzi is better than rifle at close range, and it is a close range map, atleast one merc on your team should bring uzi. It has nothing to do with skill level, only how smart you are.
I don't have an easy time against uzi up close, hell no, but that is why I stay away from it. If you wanna have an easy time agains uzi, just stay the hell away.
Papa, you're missing the point: the nature of this game is such that the spies must come in close proximity to the mercs. Thus while running around and keeping your distance works for the first 1 or 2 objectives, when things get tight for the last one the omg I just jump lagged out of your grab cuz I have uzi really gets annoying.
KRONF you are missing the point...
The forum we are having this discussion on is trying to make a mod, with the best from 2 games we all know..
If we where to say that they will use the same sucky codes, and engine as ubi have then i would partially agree with you, but still i would not ask anyone to remove the UZI nor ask anyone to not pick the UZI in the old game. (its a part of the game, its like removing the burstshots from the rifle just becouse it "does not require the same skill as using snipermode) before you start to flame me *yes that statement was well over the top*
I am not in anyway calling myself a PRO nor that i can completly avoid the UZI for a whole game, but i do know that if i encounter a man with uzi ill rather taze run, not go aggro at him.
You just have to see the situations as they come, at some points you will have to encounter them but how you choose to react or proceed is entirely up to you.
So to sum it, I agree with the UZI lagissues IN CHAOS THEORY they are kinda ruining some of the gameplay but as stated, this is a new "game" and who is to say it cant work here?
Would you still hate the uzi so much if it had been a proper netcode?
Uzi would need the following adjustments in addition to lag:
-Spread should be bigger than the rifle
-Lower damage per shot by 10-25%
Fixed uzi ya I guess it might be ok who knows, but we were discussing uzi problem in ct. Some people like InvisibleMan999 and Papa Skull saying that uzi in ct is absolutely balanced when its not. In ct uzi problem DOES exist. There are two ways to fix it in PS, leave it and fix little things like rof netcode etc or just completely remove it. I prefer to remove it completely. You might disagree thats ok everyone has their own opinion. Having 3 weapons does not make game deep in any way and only causes problems with weapon choice. Nitro, you said we are making a mod with the best from ct and pt and weapon system in pt was better. Tell me at least one reason what was wrong with pt one weapon system.
QuoteSo are you telling me that you think the rifle is better than uzi at close range? Did you just pull that out of your ass? If uzi is better than rifle at close range, and it is a close range map, atleast one merc on your team should bring uzi. It has nothing to do with skill level, only how smart you are.
I don't have an easy time against uzi up close, hell no, but that is why I stay away from it. If you wanna have an easy time agains uzi, just stay the hell away.
Go play and win aqua full stealth alone.
kronf is right, 3 weapons won't give the game more depth.
sniper is better because it takes skill and can be countered (by chaff, flash, ss on head, small fov in zoom, delay going into zoom, immobile while sniping).
with one weapon (map and gadget) balance is way easier to achieve.
the main reason the "pros" don't take uzi is simply the lagg and hit animation bs pissing off every client.
well 3 weapons for me gave scct more depth. So maybe it is a personal thing. Lets not forget that the mechanics of this game will be totaly different then scct's, i expect a much faster game then scct. So untill we actually play this, lets just wait. I only hope they remove the sniper sway if anything.
the sway was stupid because it wouldn't change anything for quick shots or shots on moving targets.
@a3c0i3d: UZI PLAYERS SUCK!!! Just for you babe. And no, its not a personal problem of gamestyle. Its ridiculous to have this POS in a game intended for this type of competitive gameplay/gaming style.
Is there a consensus here, or does the idea of nixxing uzi need more justification?
I DO however understand if people want more weapons. I'm just simply stating how uzi is a failure and isn't necessary for the game. Its pretty much equal to the shitgun My bad, shotgun.
no, i think we know how you think about it...
True, it won't give it more depth. But it will give more variety of gameplay, and that is what every game should have. It keeps it alive, keeps interest, see something new every game. Just decrease the ROF a little, take off the red screen when hurt thingy, give it a little more spray and less accuracy. Then it will be fine, it will be better for CQC, and balanced.
Quote from: kronf on October 28, 2007, 10:03:36 PM
Having 3 weapons does not make game deep in any way and only causes problems with weapon choice. Nitro, you said we are making a mod with the best from ct and pt and weapon system in pt was better. Tell me at least one reason what was wrong with pt one weapon system.
What was wrong is that sniping has evolved to be too powerful. Back in the days of PT, tactics weren't so refined, so it didn't seem as bad as it is now. You didn't have people sniping you with lightning speed everytime you tried to hack an objective. Even motion whores were fairly rare in PT. The game just hadn't reached that level of mastery that exists in it now, and that's why the balance needs to be re-evaluated.
CT weakened the rifle and that was quite simply a good choice for the time, given that sniping was a lot more powerful than we originally thought.
Quote
the main reason the "pros" don't take uzi is simply the lagg and hit animation bs pissing off every client.
Um no...
When I used to host a server back when I played PC, I would tell everyone that uzi was okay and that I would be using it. Most "pros" still chose the rifle anyway. They pick it because it fits their playstyle and they like sniping. That's it.
I seriously doubt most pros who play this game competitively care much about other people whining. After all, if people whine about cheesy sticky cams, that doesn't stop them from taking them. If they whine about cheap headshots, it doesn't stop them from doing it. They take the rifle, because they believe the rifle is better and gives them a better chance to win, not that they fear people whining about using the uzi. There is just as much lag bullshit associated with the rifle as there is with the uzi. Only the rifle instantly kills you. With the uzi, you may survive a medium range battle.
For every cheap uzi comment, I think we can substitute a cheap rifle comment.
People tend to whine about every weapon except their favorite. I like the uzi and thus don't whine about it. People who like the rifle don't whine about it, but instead choose the uzi.
Quote
I only hope they remove the sniper sway if anything.
Nah, sniping really needs something to limit it's power. I personally would hope there's like an instant displacement when you switch from normal mode to sniper mode to curb the quick snipe a bit. It's kinda overpowered imo that you happen to be aiming right at what you were aiming at in normal mode when using the rifle, and that gets around the sniper sway. Thus, most snipers did insta-snipes.
If everyone is going to be a sniper and we go to a one weapon system, then we should definitely reduce the power of sniping. I would say provide some immediate random displacement when you enter sniper mode (to prevent quick snipes) and possibly prevent people from walking while sniping (or have it increase sniper sway a lot).
Possibly I'd say allow being crouched to get rid of sniper sway or something, but the power of the sniper is something we have to regulate a lot, especially if we intend to make the rifle halfway decent in normal combat (which we better do with one weapon).
For someone with little experience with CT on the PC where people can actually snipe, you sure have a lot of [bullshit] opinions on the subject.
Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Spekkio beat me to it.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 29, 2007, 04:22:09 AM
For someone with little experience with CT on the PC where people can actually snipe, you sure have a lot of [bullshit] opinions on the subject.
Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Dude, I played CT for like a year and a half on PC.
I ended up switching to xbox only because the EAX bullshit and uber MT bullshit just got to me, and I just didn't like the direction the game was going in (namely a pure aggro fest).
I used the uzi almost exclusively and let others use it whenever they wanted. The pros I played still took the rifle, the majority of them anyway.
Now, I have little experience using the rifle myself, but I have a lot of experience fighting against it. So I know what it can do in experienced hands.
Here... watch this and then try to tell me with a straight face that it's the uzi that's overpowered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiHCEQg-Gg4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiHCEQg-Gg4)
Pros don't even use it as a sniper rifle, they just enter snipe mode practically everytime they see a spy that isn't at aggro range.
It just cheeses me off when people call the uzi unbalanced and the rifle can do that shit. If you think pros take the rifle out of some good manner bullshit, then you are talking out your ass. Seriously.
The rifle fucking owns on PC. However awesome you think the uzi is... think again.
Did it ever occur to you that videos contain cut footage, thus making the player seem better than he is? Even against the best of snipers, I get headshotted on the first shot less than twice a game on average.
No one is denying that the rifle is extremely potent in the hands of a skilled player. What we are saying is that the uzi compensates for lack of skill, which is bad. On top of that it creates a bunch of lag bs that gets extremely frustrating. The latter will be fixed inherently by PS; the former needs to be fixed via weapon tweaks.
Oh, and your PT example sucks. If we go back to PT now, the spies should almost never lose a game. SS + DJ, 4 sec between shocks instead of 12, and unstoppable cams ftw.
You're essentially whining that some people are too good. Waaahh.
Uzi compensates for the rifle's lack of close combat power, not for the player's lack of skill. CT's rifle lags as much as the uzi and it has a lower rate of fire. Sometimes, if people expect aggro spies and close combat, they would/should bring an uzi. Simple as that.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 29, 2007, 05:19:03 AM
I get headshotted on the first shot less than twice a game on average.
Once played against guy who headshoted every single time he shot - and he shot only using sniper but if he worked hard to achieve that i dont see a reason why we should nerf the sniper.
Singleshot, maybe? ;D
I read that as slingshot >.<
watching the video you may have noticed that mr.mic surprised the spies / they didn't even bother to taze him / they were playing aggro (they bluntly gave away their position; aggro doesn't have to be going for necks all the time).
from my own experience i get killed by headhots <1 time/game (against the best european players). the stuff that killes me the most atm are proxy mines because of sound loss, lagg charges and people i cannot taze. if you got problems with getting headshots it's probably that you are somewhere mid-skilled and your opponents were pros.
btw, a real advantage of sniper is the fact that they can stay out of hbs range in some situations.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 04:36:52 AM
Pros don't even use it as a sniper rifle, they just enter snipe mode practically everytime they see a spy that isn't at aggro range.
totally wrong. you are pratically immobile while in sniper mode so if the spy isn't running away (approaching without ss is stupid) in a straight line, you have to run after him. btw, the laser is a quite underrated useful gadget for chasing in these situations, especially in emf and smoke.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 03:53:43 AM
If everyone is going to be a sniper and we go to a one weapon system, then we should definitely reduce the power of sniping. I would say provide some immediate random displacement when you enter sniper mode (to prevent quick snipes) and possibly prevent people from walking while sniping (or have it increase sniper sway a lot).
Possibly I'd say allow being crouched to get rid of sniper sway or something, but the power of the sniper is something we have to regulate a lot, especially if we intend to make the rifle halfway decent in normal combat (which we better do with one weapon).
the sniper rifle is already decent in normal combat, you just need some aim and probably should use the laser. if you have problems with getting grabbed, you should take tazer.
i thought a bout adding random placement and stronger sway myself, but it's really not necessary. i expect the spies to win a higher percentage of games in ps anyways.
QuoteCT's rifle lags as much as the uzi and it has a lower rate of fire.
This is false. If you find that funky shit is happening when your opponents have the rifle, one of two things is true (possibly both):
-The server is just shitty in general and you should find somewhere else to play
-Your opponent is better than you
Yeah, the same shit happens w/ uzi. So, what are you complaining about?
Quote from: Spekkio on October 29, 2007, 05:19:03 AM
Did it ever occur to you that videos contain cut footage, thus making the player seem better than he is? Even against the best of snipers, I get headshotted on the first shot less than twice a game on average.
No one is denying that the rifle is extremely potent in the hands of a skilled player. What we are saying is that the uzi compensates for lack of skill, which is bad. On top of that it creates a bunch of lag bs that gets extremely frustrating. The latter will be fixed inherently by PS; the former needs to be fixed via weapon tweaks.
Oh, and your PT example sucks. If we go back to PT now, the spies should almost never lose a game. SS + DJ, 4 sec between shocks instead of 12, and unstoppable cams ftw.
You're essentially whining that some people are too good. Waaahh.
Simplest way to put it.
Quote from: frvge on October 29, 2007, 12:05:38 PM
Quote from: neth on October 29, 2007, 10:09:12 AM
Quote from: Kok4f4n on October 29, 2007, 09:09:08 AM
Singleshot, maybe? ;D
Yep.
... that's MrMic while he was in CAT
Sry misread, I thougt that the question was: did he hsed every single shot and he talked about NICK.
Hmm im very not sure but the nick might have been "<dontrememberthefirstpart>911"
Quote from: Spekkio on October 29, 2007, 05:19:03 AM
No one is denying that the rifle is extremely potent in the hands of a skilled player. What we are saying is that the uzi compensates for lack of skill, which is bad. On top of that it creates a bunch of lag bs that gets extremely frustrating. The latter will be fixed inherently by PS; the former needs to be fixed via weapon tweaks.
Compensating for skill is fine, honestly. An uzi in the hands of a noob is not a very deadly weapon. It's reasonably competent, but it's nowhere near as good as the rifle is in the hands of a skilled player. Not even close.
When I played with the uzi, I pretty much accepted that my merc just isn't going to be as good or versatile as someone who mastered the rifle, because the weapon itself has some inherent drawbacks, and the rifle is a better pro weapon. An uzi pro versus a rifle pro will almost always be inferior. But that's not to say we shouldn't give newbies at least a half chance.
What you seem to want to do is nerf newbies, which makes no sense to me. You don't lose to newbies regardless of the gun they happen to be using, so why even care if they want an uzi like weapon in the game?
So long as the uzi isn't more powerful than the rifle in the hands of a skilled player, you shouldn't really have a problem with it. It gives newbies a slightly better chance in close combat... only... yeah, they're newbies, so they lose anyway.
Guess what Spekkio... you, Mr.Mic and the other sniper pros are going to get more kills and kills at longer ranges with the rifle than almost every uzi user. Just because you're giving newbies half a chance to kill a spy isn't going to break anything. Even if you did have an uzi with a scope, You'd probably be using the scope most of the time anyway.
To be honest i see alot of good points from both sides, but essentially what you are discussing is the laggissues created by the UZI in Chaos Theory.
When it comes to the whole "PROS USING RIFLE" statement.. Come on guys, now thats just wrong.. There are a whole load of "PROS" which use the UZI, and why would they do this if its such a "noob" weapon?
Since my memory is kinda short term i wont mention names but i sure as hell know that ive played most of those involved in this discussion while they carried a UZI. (several times for some of you)
Why did you do this? Due to the fact that you had a bad night and needed some easy killing? Because you thought the other team was going completely aggro? Because you wanted to create a bad gameplay with lots of lag and noobish tendency's ?
No point blaming the UZI as a choice for those who lack skills, its rather determined out of what playstyle you have and also what you feel like.
The discussion right now should rather be, IS it possible to make a working UZI in PS ? Can we nerf the UZI or such? Is it possible to substitute the UZI with something else, so that we can keep the choices open even for those who as you put it "lack skills"
By the way, those damn flashgrenades hurt my eyes can we remove those aswell ?
Having only rifle over all 3 weapons will make the noobs have to stay with rifle, in which case they will LEARN how to snipe better instead of just picking up the uzi and not learn a thing. I'm making a rationalized judgment.
Played since the PT MP demo and I still can't snipe. Either you can snipe, or you can't.
I definitely don't think thats the case.
Westfall-US, do you really believe that you know it all just because you are able to handle a sniper?
I know several GREAT CT players who only use UZI, they picked uzi as the first weapon and sticked with it, or some of them even cant snipe. Its that easy..
"Having only rifle over all 3 weapons will make the noobs have to stay with rifle, in which case they will LEARN how to snipe better instead of just picking up the uzi and not learn a thing. I'm making a rationalized judgment." Rationalized ? Its plain stupidity.. So Mr. Texas redneck ranger, you will learn everything if you just hit yourself enough times in the head with it.. Well this is computergames, we would like to have fun here..
Quote from: frvge on October 29, 2007, 06:53:16 PM
Played since the PT MP demo and I still can't snipe. Either you can snipe, or you can't.
Theres something in it.
Quote from: Nitro on October 29, 2007, 06:39:56 PM
The discussion right now should rather be, IS it possible to make a working UZI in PS ?
If you're talking about the lag issues, the netcode might be better in PS. So the uzi just might work as is. Even if the uzi is laggy, fixing it is easy. You just reduce the RoF and up the damage by a like amount. So if you cut the RoF in half, you double the damage. That way the damage per second stays the same.
Pretty easy really.
Hell you could probably just give it the same RoF as the rifle but double damage and that'd work.
The shotgun may be the only weapon that's conceptually unsalvageable. The problem with it is that you need some kind of long range threat in this game. Even if it's just to stop a hacking spy.
Just to clear up a common misunderstanding, the uzi problem isn't confined to poor net code though that contributes to the problem.
The first issue was with a certain graphics card which was fixed.
The second issue is the hit animation a spy goes through when struck by a bullet. The standard hit animation for the rifle and shotgun was re-used for the uzi but gets played back very quickly and it gets chained together because of the high ROF making the spies movement jittery and laggy. Not what UBI intended I'm sure, but it's what happened and for some reason they just left it.
PS won't have this same issue as the animations/code will be our own. We will however be able to expect a whole new set of bugs.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 07:57:11 PMThe shotgun may be the only weapon that's conceptually unsalvageable. The problem with it is that you need some kind of long range threat in this game. Even if it's just to stop a hacking spy.
Grenades provide the long range threat needed. A shotgun user just needs to adapt their play style to accommodate this. You don't always need to go for a kill with the grenades either, just shoot the grenade close enough they are forced to stop hacking and if possible shoot the grenade so they are forced to either run into the grenade or flee away from it towards you into shotty range. The same way you shoot a grenade to one side of an object and then go around the other way to intercept the spy.
Shotgun users don't usualy adopt a chase and kill type style, the good ones I've played against just used the shotgun's heavy threat level paired with a good patrol pattern (I use pattern loosely as we all know predictability leaves openings) to keep spies off objectives which may not be fun for those of us who prefer to kill, but hey, each to their own.
The number of players that complain or kick you for using the shotty is so immense that I highly doubt the shotgun's full potential in the hands of a skilled player has been seen.
So is PS going to have uzi in it?
At this time as far as I know we are planning to include a high ROF weapon though it will not be an uzi.
Hmm perhaps unusual wpns like crossbow with low ROF but with poisoning arrows or pistol ?
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 29, 2007, 08:06:15 PM
The number of players that complain or kick you for using the shotty is so immense that I highly doubt the shotgun's full potential in the hands of a skilled player has been seen.
I dunno. I mean there are some people who complain about shotty, but they're mostly DM players. When I see a merc with a shotty I love it. If I could pick my opponent's weapons, I definitely give them all shottys.
both uzi and shotty are retarded. wtf is wrong with the pt rifle? does it take too much skill for you to snipe or counter it?
Quote from: Gawain on October 29, 2007, 10:24:09 PM
both uzi and shotty are retarded. wtf is wrong with the pt rifle? does it take too much skill for you to snipe or counter it?
Not everyone is a sniper. Frvge said it, I've said it, as have plenty of others.
Some people just don't snipe as their playstyle.
Besides if you guys like sniping so much, go play DA. That's a pure snipers game. Then every merc can be a sniper and every spy has to play the same way. That's the kind of crap when the game doesn't give you choices and instead forces a certain playstyle on you.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 29, 2007, 11:00:32 PM
That's the kind of crap when the game doesn't give you choices and instead forces a certain playstyle on you.
don't compare da to pt. the playstyle sniper "forces" is much more sophisticated.
Quote from: Gawain on October 29, 2007, 11:10:18 PM
don't compare da to pt. the playstyle sniper "forces" is much more sophisticated.
A forced playstyle, regardless of how complex, is still a forced playstyle and it sucks. That's why DA failed.
Creating so called n00b weapons makes the game more accessible to people and will increase our community size.
I don't even get the whole anti-uzi/shotgun mentality. It's like you acknowledge they're weaker weapons, but somehow think it's cheap when someone uses them. I mean... wtf? If someone wants to take an inferior weapon, why do you have such a problem with it?
Give people choices. It doesn't hurt the game at all. If you're so elite as to avoid headshots from the rifle in time, then it should be very easy to avoid getting mowed down by the uzi. Seriously, it's not as great a weapon as most of you think. I think you've all been playing without it for so long that you don't even know what it does anymore.
There will be 3 weapons classes for sure! If UT 3 can have a gatling gun and shotgun without lag issues, I dont see how we can go wrong with an uzi like weapon.
This elitist mentality of rifle only is really stupid. Especially when I use shotty all the time and get flamed by idiots posting the exact same comments. I have no sympathy for that.
While I would prefer a PT-style rifle only, I have no real qualms about 3 weapons so long as you tweak them accordingly. The shotty is way too random and doesn't actually hit where you aim it, and that needs to be fixed. Ever try to shoot out a snare or a spy bullet with that thing? LoL. I also don't think that the shotty should insta-gib people, unless there is a way to make it both consistent and relatively difficult.
On top of that, give the rifle 30 rounds but keep its ROF, give the uzi max magazine size of 300, and increase the uzi's bullet spread to be bigger than the rifle's and I think that'll balance out nicely.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 30, 2007, 12:52:56 AM
While I would prefer a PT-style rifle only, I have no real qualms about 3 weapons so long as you tweak them accordingly. The shotty is way too random and doesn't actually hit where you aim it, and that needs to be fixed. Ever try to shoot out a snare or a spy bullet with that thing? LoL. I also don't think that the shotty should insta-gib people, unless there is a way to make it both consistent and relatively difficult.
I can agree to the shotty's randomness, that definitely needs to be fixed. As far as the insta-gib, I don't see a problem with it, since it's only a shotty headshot that insta-gibs and only at close range. That's fine really. That's exactly what the shotty is supposed to do, blow people's heads off. If it couldn't get those one shot kills at close range, then it probably wouldnt' be worth much.
If anything, the shotty needs some improvement.
Quote
On top of that, give the rifle 30 rounds but keep its ROF, give the uzi max magazine size of 300, and increase the uzi's bullet spread to be bigger than the rifle's and I think that'll balance out nicely.
Yeah the 30 rounds should be fine. The main power of the rifle is its sniping capability anyway. So 30 extra bullets aint' gonna do much.
Not sure about the bullet spread thing for the uzi though. The uzi is supposed to be a mid range weapon, so it should be reasonably accurate at longer range, at least to the point where it can hit something and disrupt a hacking spy.
If you wanted to nerf the long range a little, you could add slightly more recoil to the uzi, so that it can't keep up accurate sustained fire at longer ranges, but it should get a decent long range "ping" shot that stops a spy from hacking. That way it can still do something at long range, just not much.
The shotty doesn't just insta-gib on a headshot.
Ok, there is no need to say that you're "not going to show sympathy for those who don't like uzi or shotgun." In my eyes, both uzi and shotgun were pure garbage in CT. If you can actually fix them, then I won't really care. Its not going to matter in the long run really, but realize that the additions of these 2 "brute-like" weapons is neither rational nor good judgment.
Go ahead and spam me on this. Whatever, your opinions aren't going to change because I'm telling you truth. Maybe in Project Stealth 2 we can have a button that nukes the entire place. Just a little more love for the merc. Didn't we discuss balance at some point? Apparently this is just mythology to you.
Fix the weapons and goodluck.
Yeah ummm, what? I don't understand the elitist rifle mentality either. You somehow find a way to simultaneously think that the uzi is inferior and that it is overpowered. I don't know about a lot of other people, but that is just impossible. You are stating two contradictory points.
Balance the uzi out a bit more, fix lag issues, add spray. Don't care much for the shotgun but if it can be balanced out a bit more, then it would be better. It's just that host shotty is the most pure rapage weapon out there up close, I mean, my god. You have no chance. Just fix them, don't delete them.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 30, 2007, 02:14:24 AM
The shotty doesn't just insta-gib on a headshot.
True... I fired 4 shots at point-blank range at someone. Most at the neck/upper torso part. He didn't die and lag-grabbed me.
Quote from: frvge on October 30, 2007, 03:09:44 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on October 30, 2007, 02:14:24 AM
The shotty doesn't just insta-gib on a headshot.
True... I fired 4 shots at point-blank range at someone. Most at the neck/upper torso part. He didn't die and lag-grabbed me.
That explains it right there, there was enough lag your shots were missing or just grazing (not on your screen but as far as the game is concerned).
The shotty DOES insta gib on a head shot.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 30, 2007, 03:04:13 AM
It's just that host shotty is the most pure rapage weapon out there up close, I mean, my god. You have no chance.
The shotty is supposed to be a pure rapage weapon up close. That's seriously all it does. The drawbacks are huge, so it better damn well own spies up close.
The whole premise to the shotgun is to blow off an aggro spy's head. If it can't do that, then it's useless.
I've said it before and so have others but let me remind everyone this is not CT, the problems of CT wont be replicated.
Here is a list, not complete but enough of one to give everyone an idea of what will be reviewed and tweaked as the item/function is created and play tested.
Grenades Merc - Shot velocity/Distance/Arc
Grenades Spy - Shot velocity/Distance/Arc
Fragmentation Grenade - Blast radius
Flash Bang - Disorient duration
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Duration
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Radius
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Through walls?
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Duration of effect on Merc after leaving the cloud
Smoke Grenade - Cloud duration
Smoke Grenade - Movement speed within cloud
Smoke Grenade - Slow %
Smoke Grenade - Time from exposure to sleep
Smoke Grenade - Sleep length
Spy Tazer - Energy consumption
Spy Tazer - Taze cool down
Bug - Duration
Bug - Detection radius
Bug - Track/Hack duration
Electronic Scrambler - Duration
Electronic Scrambler - Distraction noise distance
Electronic Scrambler - Alarm trip duration
Epoxy Cam - Flight speed
Epoxy Cam - Smoke cloud size and length
Epoxy Cam - Sleep duration
Mines - Blast radius
Mines - Motion sensing radius
Mines - Laser length
Mines - Laser trip to detonation time
Mines - Poison strength/duration
Tracking/Motion Sensor - Laser length
Tracking/Motion Sensor - Detection radius
Tracking/Motion Sensor - Tracking duration
Tazer - Aim
Tazer - Length
Tazer - Cool down
High ROF Weapon - Clip size
High ROF Weapon - Number of clips
High ROF Weapon - Rate of fire
High ROF Weapon - Bullet spread
Rifle - Clip size
Rifle - Number of clips
Rifle - Rate of fire
Rifle - Bullet spread
Rifle - Scope to shot time
Rifle - Scope sway
12 Gauge - Clip size
12 Gauge - Number of clips
12 Gauge - Rate of fire
12 Gauge - Buck Shot with a spread?
12 Gauge - Slugs with no spread?
12 Gauge - Effective distance
12 Gauge - Reload time
Laser - Tracking box duration
Laser - Tracking duration
Charge - Distance
Charge - Cool down
Charge - Impact grabs
Spy Melee - Knock back distance
Spy Melee - Disorient duration
Spy Melee - Grabbing after knock back
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 30, 2007, 04:22:11 AM
I've said it before and so have others but let me remind everyone this is not CT, the problems of CT wont be replicated.
Here is a list, not complete but enough of one to give everyone an idea of what will be reviewed and tweaked as the item/function is created and play tested.
Grenades Merc - Shot velocity/Distance/Arc
Grenades Spy - Shot velocity/Distance/Arc
Fragmentation Grenade - Blast radius
Flash Bang - Disorient duration
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Duration
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Radius
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Through walls?
Chaff/EMP Grenade - Duration of effect on Merc after leaving the cloud
Smoke Grenade - Cloud duration
Smoke Grenade - Movement speed within cloud
Smoke Grenade - Slow %
Smoke Grenade - Time from exposure to sleep
Smoke Grenade - Sleep length
Spy Tazer - Energy consumption
Spy Tazer - Taze cool down
Bug - Duration
Bug - Detection radius
Bug - Track/Hack duration
Electronic Scrambler - Duration
Electronic Scrambler - Distraction noise distance
Electronic Scrambler - Alarm trip duration
Epoxy Cam - Flight speed
Epoxy Cam - Smoke cloud size and length
Epoxy Cam - Sleep duration
Mines - Blast radius
Mines - Motion sensing radius
Mines - Laser length
Mines - Laser trip to detonation time
Mines - Poison strength/duration
Tracking/Motion Sensor - Laser length
Tracking/Motion Sensor - Detection radius
Tracking/Motion Sensor - Tracking duration
Tazer - Aim
Tazer - Length
Tazer - Cool down
High ROF Weapon - Clip size
High ROF Weapon - Number of clips
High ROF Weapon - Rate of fire
High ROF Weapon - Bullet spread
Rifle - Clip size
Rifle - Number of clips
Rifle - Rate of fire
Rifle - Bullet spread
Rifle - Scope to shot time
Rifle - Scope sway
12 Gauge - Clip size
12 Gauge - Number of clips
12 Gauge - Rate of fire
12 Gauge - Buck Shot with a spread?
12 Gauge - Slugs with no spread?
12 Gauge - Effective distance
12 Gauge - Reload time
Laser - Tracking box duration
Laser - Tracking duration
Charge - Distance
Charge - Cool down
Charge - Impact grabs
Spy Melee - Knock back distance
Spy Melee - Disorient duration
Spy Melee - Grabbing after knock back
nice list. goodluxx
pointless quote.
there are alot of points missing. has the decision on 3 weapons alredy been made?
the question is, who made the decision to take out UZI and Shotty....the answer is no one. If your not on the dev team, your not making game design decisions so dont make presumptions.
There are plenty of people that read these forums despite not posting and they end up spamming me asking about what features are being taken out and what not because they think threads like this represent what the dev is going to do.
Binary,
I know the shotty insta-gibs on a headshot. However, it also insta-gibs on a body shot if you hit the spy with the majority of the pellets.
The shotty should not insta-gib if a stray pellet or two hits the head, nor should it insta-gib on a body shot. You should also make the spread constant and center upon where the crosshair actually aims. That's all I was saying.
But is it really a problem? Hell, just stay 4-5 meters away and you'll hardly get hurt!
Not always. I've been insta-gibbed by the shotgun when the merc isn't even facing me lol.
YEah, that would most likely be host then
Shotty is not predictable....I use it a lot because i get more kills with it, especially with spies that have the habit of punch, taze, then hack 1 second.
The rule with shotty is that you have to make that one shot count, because spy can just taze you and run. You have the time to aim.
I have had plenty of times where spy have taken 5 shots and still not die.....and on hi lag servers with aggro host, you will never hit the spy.
But for that matter, Rifle gets headshots around corners from acrossed the map if the lag is right.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 30, 2007, 05:16:48 PM
Shotty is not predictable....I use it a lot because i get more kills with it, especially with spies that have the habit of punch, taze, then hack 1 second.
The rule with shotty is that you have to make that one shot count, because spy can just taze you and run. You have the time to aim.
I have had plenty of times where spy have taken 5 shots and still not die.....and on hi lag servers with aggro host, you will never hit the spy.
But for that matter, Rifle gets headshots around corners from acrossed the map if the lag is right.
All I ask for is consistency. Give the shotty a spread that is constant and actually covers the center of the crosshair.
The precise reason that I don't use the shotty is because if you center your crosshair on the spy and fire, you will miss almost every time.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 30, 2007, 12:18:49 PM
If your not on the dev team, your not making game design decisions so dont make presumptions.
That makes me want to post my ideas a lot more.
Quote from: Westfall-US on October 30, 2007, 10:52:12 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on October 30, 2007, 12:18:49 PM
If your not on the dev team, your not making game design decisions so dont make presumptions.
That makes me want to post my ideas a lot more.
I think you're taking it a bit out of context. People not on the dev team need to be careful how they word things. A lot of people read these forums and when they see people stating something as fact they assume it to be so. This leads to misconceptions and forces us to spend time answering PMs asking if this or that is true when that time could be spent actually working on PS.
Though the forums provide valuable input to the team, it should be pretty obvious that any final decision will be made by the team based just not off your input and suggestions but what actually works and is balanced and and useful in testing. Not to mention that we are restricted by what is possible within the perimeters of a mod.
Any decisions will be made known when the time is right (
IE most decisions just cant be made final until it has been tested extensively) and unless you see an official statement by a team member don't assume it to be true. Don't expect to see many posted decisions until play testing begins.
^ what he says
QuoteI think you're taking it a bit out of context. People not on the dev team need to be careful how they word things. A lot of people read these forums and when they see people stating something as fact they assume it to be so. This leads to misconceptions and forces us to spend time answering PMs asking if this or that is true when that time could be spent actually working on PS.
Well, no offense, but those people are idiots who can't discern fact from opinion.
The only thing that I take as set in stone is anything put in a thread on the Presentation Forum by one of the devs. Anything else is just discussion and opinion.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 31, 2007, 12:41:31 PM
Well, no offense, but those people are idiots who can't discern fact from opinion.
yeah i hate people that flame because you didn't write imo/i think/in my opinion/etc in front of every statement.
and of course, everything needs play testing, it's simply impossible to foresee the effects on balance. but the discussions here are important to reduce the number of stuff to test and the possible combinations resulting in a faster process.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 31, 2007, 12:41:31 PMWell, no offense, but those people are idiots who can't discern fact from opinion.
Or:
1 - They are not forum savvy
2 - They don't have time to dig through all the posts to find an answer (with the way some wander over to other topics it could take hours)
If someone doesn't have the hours needed to catch up on old posts and get in the loop like those of you who are here daily that doesn't make them idiots. It means you as regular forum members have an obligation to watch how you say things so as not to lead to misconceptions.
Or you can take the "They are idiots" approach and do absolutely nothing to help out the people who are spending every ounce of their free time to bring you this mod.
If it will help, I would be happy to discuss setting up a FAQ thread that we will keep up to date with any decisions and information.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 03:47:15 PM
If it will help, I would be happy to discuss setting up a FAQ thread that we will keep up to date with any decisions and information.
there you go...
Quote from: Gawain on October 31, 2007, 04:53:57 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 03:47:15 PM
If it will help, I would be happy to discuss setting up a FAQ thread that we will keep up to date with any decisions and information.
there you go...
I've actually ben wondering y there isn't something like this up yet.
Not sure, we have all been rather busy and I think it just slipped through the cracks. I'm discussing it with the other Devs, we will have something put together soon.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 31, 2007, 07:01:18 PM
Not sure, we have all been rather busy and I think it just slipped through the cracks. I'm discussing it with the other Devs, we will have something put together soon.
I'm sure you guys have been busy. Look at how much you've actually gotten accomplished so far without even having access to the Unreal engine. Good job to all. =)