OMG where's the new stuff?

[AgentX_003]

1 (Cronky):

Maybe elbow chaining is a Co-Op move. If you hit the Merc 3 times then they get knocked out.

Based on a time limit, and keeping a stronger self-defense move like Berserk in mind, this might be a good way to get rid of the cases where you can't seem to grab a Merc when you are double-teaming. Should be fairly balanced.

The only problem with my idea is that you guys are going to (unless I'm mistaken) put the grab and elbow moves on different keys. This idea makes sense for CT where there was a lot of knocking back and forth while you were TRYING to grab them, but when you have a key dedicated to that one move then you wont have to really worry about it. You just have to jam on the key until you get it.

I just don't see many people using the elbow key (regularly) if there is a dedicated key to what you're ACTUALLY trying to do every time you go for a Merc. Perhaps I'm just not thinking it through too well though, or it's something I actually have to play with to really grasp. It took reading many topics on here to understand WHY you would want to knock out a Merc rather than just kill him. This problem seems similar, and I expect I'm just as blind.

Poor cronky :/ failing to understand the concept of knocking out :/..... The whole point is  A) to delay the merc / buy yourself that much more time for him to get to your posistion  and  finally B) delaying the merc from getting more equipment once yourself runs of nades / your partner runs out of backpack.

[Zedblade]

Getting players to want to knock out a merc just as much as they want to break a neck is a general problem. In CT the reward for just knocking a Merc out was that they couldn't replenish their gadgets, however it still kept them alive and ready to wake up in only a few seconds. Breaking their necks on the other hand gave you the sweet satisfaction of grabbing a merc and seeing the pop-up message, it also kills them, causing them to respawn all the way back at their spawn point after a 10 second respawn time. Most of the time in CT breaking a neck was just better in everyway. We need to make them both equally useful.

Only things I can think of right now are:

Knocked out Mercs stays unconscious longer then a neck break and respawn would be.
Giving the players a message similar to neck breaks. (Zedblade has knocked DreadStunlock unconscious.)
Knocked out merc is automatically spy-bulleted without actually using a spy bullet. (So a knocked out merc is shown on radar for a predetermined amount of time or until death.)
Knocking out a merc is a quicker animation, allowing you to make a get away faster then breaking a neck.

[Wh1tE_Dw4rF]

Perhaps you could booby trap one of the merc's equipment. Say you choose the granades, they could blow up in the merc his face next time he wakes up. Mines that trigger a merc instead of spy. Gasmask that puffs a nausiating cloud that makes the merc sick for a short while. Security Cameras that black out once a merc tries to view them. Tazer that unloads itself on the merc.

Ofcourse a spy could only do it to 1 gadget at a time, perhaps even once a spy life. Making knocking a merc out rewarding in the long run, with a bit of RNG to keep it enteraining.

[DreadStunLock]

Getting players to want to knock out a merc just as much as they want to break a neck is a general problem. In CT the reward for just knocking a Merc out was that they couldn't replenish their gadgets, however it still kept them alive and ready to wake up in only a few seconds. Breaking their necks on the other hand gave you the sweet satisfaction of grabbing a merc and seeing the pop-up message, it also kills them, causing them to respawn all the way back at their spawn point after a 10 second respawn time. Most of the time in CT breaking a neck was just better in everyway. We need to make them both equally useful.

Only things I can think of right now are:

Knocked out Mercs stays unconscious longer then a neck break and respawn would be.
Giving the players a message similar to neck breaks. (Zedblade has knocked DreadStunlock unconscious.)
Knocked out merc is automatically spy-bulleted without actually using a spy bullet. (So a knocked out merc is shown on radar for a predetermined amount of time or until death.)
Knocking out a merc is a quicker animation, allowing you to make a get away faster then breaking a neck.

Justus@ Excuse me!? Zed...blade...? You...kill me....cough*failcough*nochance* I mean, Agent can't do it what chance do you have?

By the way can you guys make it so the timer on respawn pops straight away, rather than when the mercenary actually falls to the ground? Cause seriously, the respawn timer can be hell of a lot longer if you get blasted and you are falling down, and you respawn only after your body hits the ground on CT.

[Cronky]

Poor cronky :/ failing to understand the concept of knocking out :/..... The whole point is  A) to delay the merc / buy yourself that much more time for him to get to your posistion  and  finally B) delaying the merc from getting more equipment once yourself runs of nades / your partner runs out of backpack.

Yeah, that's what I ended up grasping after reading over the forum for a while. When I actually played though it always just seemed more worthwhile to kill the Merc (if in the position to do so) than to knock them out. Delaying is nice, but being 1 step closer to another form of victory always seemed better. Choking them out was showboating though. As was talking to them the whole time (thus cutting their mic out so their teammate wouldn't know what's happening).

@Justus

I should have just quoted you for my response above...

What sounded nice, and was mentioned a long while back by Farley (I think), was the ability to move bodies. While not SO practical in the sense that it'll help delay a Merc even more if you're by yourself. Imagine if you could do something like... drop them to another floor (game logic as to why they don't die this way when a 2 foot drop when hanging on the edge can). It may not kill them, but it does disorient them. Kinda like getting smoked out on an Elevator and then having a spy change you to a different floor.

Sounds nice, doesn't get them ALL the way back to their spawn, but does make an inconvenience for the Merc when he wakes up.

[VaNilla]

Maybe you should just cut 'knock-outs' from the game, it's pretty useless overall and only serves to imbalance equipment :P

[AgentX_003]

Maybe you should just cut 'knock-outs' from the game, it's pretty useless overall and only serves to imbalance equipment :P

Ew, Can anyone say DoubleAgent ? ....... thats what that deal was all about .. no knockout :/.

[DreadStunLock]

Maybe you should just cut 'knock-outs' from the game, it's pretty useless overall and only serves to imbalance equipment :P

Why not? PS removed jumping to avoid several problems, they might even follow with that. At least it will give a completely different gaming experience as well.

[Farley4Fan]

I second the dumping over a rail idea.  Maybe even if its just during the time you have a merc grabbed that you are able to do it, sounds fun to me.  You take him to a rail, hit the knockout button, and you send him over.  If its high enough maybe it should kill the merc.

[Spark Mandriller]

Maybe you should just cut 'knock-outs' from the game, it's pretty useless overall and only serves to imbalance equipment :P

We could always just get rid of neck breaks instead.

I mean at the very least it'd make DM players unhappy so that's something right?

[Vega]

2 (Vega):
(btw, lasers come generally from 1 side in games)

For the coop laser disable move, which is far more practical than the coop camera disable, I envisioned it differently than how I drew it.  I'll have to draw it again but it's hard with my limited paint skills.  I know what you're referring to about the lasers coming from one side and the way it would work is this:  Spy 1 is next to the lasers' origin and disables them by holding some reflective material against two of the lasers, allowing Spy 2 to crouch-walk through the opening; when Spy 2 finishes crouch-walking through the opening then Spy 1, while still disabling the lasers, shifts his body through the opening and on the other side of the lasers thus getting through the lasers surreptitiously and without notifying anyone of the maneuver. 

Without seeing a drawing of this it will sound silly and impractical, but it would be a quick, easy, and completely practical idea for a team of spies that want to move around the map without notifying the mercenaries of their whereabouts.  Technically, it doesn't have to be a "coop move," as it would only require new animation for the spy whom is disabling the lasers while the other simply crouch-walks through.

[frvge]

But that'd mean it's just a move for 1 Spy that's probably slower than diving through them?

[seef.]

IMO the knock out system was fine and served a purpose in CT.  It was just as useful and worked just about the same way as gas camming.  From what I remember it was about 10 seconds of actual knockout time with another second or two of them reviving and blurred vision.  You could even hold them for a bit (adding even more time the merc was disabled) while your teammate advanced, took out defense, diffused or took out the other merc.  That time holding the merc and doing your thing, was better then just snapping his neck for some situations.  Giving the spies some tactical advantage, knowing exactly where the merc was going to wake up, no extra equipment, confusion and another chance to setup vs him (cam, decoy, neck or whatever).

Some other situations would include walking a merc over to placed mine, knocking him out and killing him with it as you run off or the baiting of the other merc to nade his knocked out teammate.  Even though the end result is the same as a neck break leaving the merc dead, it still is just fun to kill someone with variety.  On top of that it is just funny to see a merc die to an explosion.  Breaking neck after neck after neck gets stale after a while, need some creativity and planning.

Sure there weren't too many maps or places where you could use it well but it still worked if you knew what you were doing.  Like on mall for instance, if you grab a merc on the 1st floor, knock him out giving you an opening to run  to the 2nd floor past the security and dealing with only one merc.  If you had broken the other mercs neck, by the time you have made it to their spawn you would be dealing with 2 mercs.  Same goes for ohphanage and station and a few others I just can't think of right now.

With all that said, adding time to the knockout just doesn't sound right to me.  You will always have those people just snapping necks no matter what you do to the knockout system.  That's because you will always have players with the mentality of 'HHAHA YOU PWNED! DMDMDM".  If time is added to the knock out making it equal to a neck break, what would be the point of snapping a neck unless you wanted the satisfaction of hearing the 'crack'?  As for myself, I would just knock them out all the time to dry out their nades and defense supply making for an easy win.

Adding 'Someone has gone unconscious' text would be nice though.

[Cronky]

I just remembered that holding a Merc gave you a chance to open a Merc-only door. That was the greatest feeling in the game! Knowing that you used the Merc to give you a shortcut.

Slightly off topic, but I just had that pop into my head.

[seef.]

nice, forgot about that one.  Knocking a merc out in the security door and keep advancing leaving an opening for your straggler teammate to run through.