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The fix list

Started by Spekkio, April 21, 2007, 04:57:21 AM

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Spekkio

#30
QuoteThat's rather difficult to do unless you're the host or the spy is stationary.
So is a headshot with zoom. Your point?

QuoteWell I think I'd be fine with removing the thing that takes you out of sniper mode with chaff and flash.
I wouldn't.

QuoteOnly problem is that if it's a host sniper, you don't even get the chance. He rounds a corner (already in sniper mode) and fires a shot at you hacking and you just die. You don't get any particular warning.
This has little to do with the weapons. Host uzi/host sniper, same difference. I'm not talking about that.

QuotePeople have got along fine with the rifle as is. If it had "no full-auto capacity" as you say, then people wouldn't be using it.
People have gotten along fine with a ton of shit in this game, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Even if the rifle were left with its current ROF, which you can make a good argument for if the uzi were left in the game, it should have a 30-round magazine with 150 max. I don't see any reason why they reduced it to 25.

QuoteYou shouldn't ever be forced to aggro.
I disagree. Stealth is just as important as action, hence the title of the genre. Still, a double-uzi loadout all but disables the ability to aggro in the first place, even if it was optional.

Actually, now that I think about it, fixing the lag BS that goes along with the uzi would probably inherently nerf it sufficiently. It also should only have 300 max rounds, though, to be in line with the rifle and shotgun which have the ability to fully reload 4 additional times vs. the uzi's 5.

Anyway, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I'd like to get some other people's take on it.

EDIT: I edited the OP to reflect this argument and the subsequent results of the poll on SClamers.

Quoteimo all weapons will get too strong with fluid aiming and no lagg...
the biggest problem about scct is its console origin, where the aiming is poor and no toal freaks play the game 24/7  Tongue
Well, thankfully these guys will tweak the game as needed. If it turns out that 30 rounds in the rifle and 60 in the uzi is too much, they can be toned down to 25/50 or whatever it needs to be to be balanced given adept play. Also keep in mind the spy shocker will aim much more fluidly.

goodkebab

a lot of these discussions will be sorted out once we have a beta for people to test.  Again, CT is the goal we want to achieve...and that is a very high quality of standard when you know just what kind of work is involved.

Things like ROF and Clips will be tweaked once we know how the engine performs.  Again,  I want to be strict on not losing sight of our goal which is to clone CT game play.  That alone, bugs and all, is  a significant achievement for us.

Of course we need to bring something more to the table otherwise people will just continue with CT, which is why I appreciate these threads.  Keep in mind, and it should be obvious by now....that a democratic approach to game design doesnt really work.   Otherwise the project loses focus in the attempt to please everyone.

Spekkio

Of course...but things like ROF and magazine capacity don't change the gameplay, they just balance the sides one way or the other.

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 08:05:38 PM
QuoteThat's rather difficult to do unless you're the host or the spy is stationary.
So is a headshot with zoom. Your point?
Well not nearly so. It's much harder to keep a constant targetting lock on a moving spy than it is to fire one single snap shot off at the head. It's one reason the shotgun happens to be a better close combat weapon than the uzi. The uzi actually could likely do more damage over a sustained period, but the shotgun can do its damage in one shot.


QuotePeople have gotten along fine with a ton of shit in this game, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.
If the rifle wasn't a popular gun, then I'd damn well believe what you're saying. The problem is that lots of people take the rifle, pros especially, so I'm very skeptical when you make claims to improve it. I'll think about improving the rifle when everyone is running around with the shotgun and uzi.

Quote
Even if the rifle were left with its current ROF, which you can make a good argument for if the uzi were left in the game, it should have a 30-round magazine with 150 max. I don't see any reason why they reduced it to 25.
I don't really see a problem with increasing the magazine size.

QuoteI disagree. Stealth is just as important as action, hence the title of the genre. Still, a double-uzi loadout all but disables the ability to aggro in the first place, even if it was optional.
I'm not saying aggro shouldn't be an option, but aggro shouldn't be mandatory. That's where I think the game runs into trouble, where the game allows the possibility for mercs to give up objectives and force pure aggro situations.

It might be a good thing that we can't reuse the old maps from CT, because it lets us design new maps that hopefully can prevent those sort of problems.

If we don't need to aggro, we probably dont' need to worry as much about anti-aggro guns, though I still think the uzi should allow minimal aggro. Shotgun should be the only true aggro negator.

Quote
Actually, now that I think about it, fixing the lag BS that goes along with the uzi would probably inherently nerf it sufficiently. It also should only have 300 max rounds, though, to be in line with the rifle and shotgun which have the ability to fully reload 4 additional times vs. the uzi's 5.
Honestly, I wouldn't see any problem with just having infinite reloads like in DA. You had to reload at the ammo crate so rarely in CT that I'm not even sure we should bother wasting time coding in the ammo crate, not unless we're going to have it perform some deeper function (like reloading flares or something). About the only times I've ever ran out of bullets were on heavily lagged games anyway.

Quote
Anyway, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I'd like to get some other people's take on it.
Ok fair enough.

Spekkio

QuoteI'm not saying aggro shouldn't be an option, but aggro shouldn't be mandatory. That's where I think the game runs into trouble, where the game allows the possibility for mercs to give up objectives and force pure aggro situations.

It might be a good thing that we can't reuse the old maps from CT, because it lets us design new maps that hopefully can prevent those sort of problems.
You act like everyone hates aggro. There are people who actually like Warehouse, Bank, Deftech and the like. I'm not talking about newbies, either. If you don't like that playstyle, that's fine -- you can play different maps. There are 11 to choose from.

Whether the maps are new or old, I like the fact that we have a mix and the PS team should strive to keep that.

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 10:11:17 PM
You act like everyone hates aggro. There are people who actually like Warehouse, Bank, Deftech and the like. I'm not talking about newbies, either. If you don't like that playstyle, that's fine -- you can play different maps. There are 11 to choose from.

Honestly though, you can aggro in *any* map. I've seen plenty of people play aggro in orphanage or factory.

You can't design a non-aggro map. You can however, design an anti-stealth map... and given the name of this thing is "project stealth", that seems a bit counterintuitive.

If people want to aggro, that's fine. I'm just asking that stealth be an option too.

I don't like it when maps dictate a certain playstyle, especially when that style is aggro-only.

Spekkio

The only problem is there is always going to be a "best" strategy to do to increase your chances to win, and the mercs are always going to prepare for that. Someone might design a map to encourage stealth and then the spies turn around and just aggro the hell out of it (Orphanage comes to mind).

InvisibleMan999

The thing is that aggro is always an option, regardless of the map. In fact, aggro is probably more effective on factory than it is in warehouse, simply because the mercs are more separated.

Ever since they got rid of shock + jump, warehouse hasn't been a true pro-aggro map. The only reason it's seen as an aggro map is because it kicks stealth right in the balls. You can't use stealth on warehouse. at all.

It's why I don't like maps like that. They do what DA tried to do, only in the opposite direction. Instead of saying "you can't use aggro", they're saying "you can't use stealth."

It no longer becomes the players option of whether to aggro or stealth. The map simply won't let you sneak past the mercs. 

Spekkio

QuoteYou can't use stealth on warehouse. at all.
You most certainly can in sector 2, and if it was extraction you'd be able to use stealth on all 3 sectors.

goodkebab

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 22, 2007, 10:49:59 PM
The thing is that aggro is always an option, regardless of the map. In fact, aggro is probably more effective on factory than it is in warehouse, simply because the mercs are more separated.



Aggro as an option is important.  And I for one, totally disagree about aggro on factory being more effective.  I have played against a spy team, that was able to get all objectives without any deaths using pure stealth. The reason they were never killed, was because we never found them.

Fact is, stealth is very hard to do well against good mercs because it requires the player to actually trick his opponent.  Decieving your opponent without making it look obvious,  being able to navigate the map without disabling security or making a sound...and still not be seen...are all very difficult skills that do not depend on gadgets, gun,  reaction time, etc etc.  But there are people that can do it so good (seefoo, onizuka+krisp rolls, and others)...that it becomes more humiliating to be defeated by a stealth player that you never see, instead of an aggro team with host advantage.

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: goodkebab on April 23, 2007, 11:06:05 AM
Aggro as an option is important.  And I for one, totally disagree about aggro on factory being more effective.  I have played against a spy team, that was able to get all objectives without any deaths using pure stealth. The reason they were never killed, was because we never found them.
Ok well note that when I say "more effective" I actually don't mean instead of stealth, I mean compared to other maps. Because the mercs are more separated, it's easier to aggro on factory than it is to aggro on warehouse for instance. Now, it might be easier to stealth than it is to aggro on factory, but I'm just making the point that aggro is always viable.

Allowing aggro as an option is fine, but I think stealth also needs to be an option. The difference is that stealth is very map dependent, while aggro is less so. One cannot go ahead and design a map that allows stealth but doesn't allow aggro. It's just not possible to do that.

Quote
You most certainly can in sector 2, and if it was extraction you'd be able to use stealth on all 3 sectors.

How the hell are you ever supposed to win an extraction using stealth? It's the aggro player's paradise. It's all about having your partner run aggro interference while the other guy runs full speed towards the extraction point.

Extraction has never been a stealth mode. It's the most aggro thing in the entire game. Grab the disc and then go run and gun, shocking the merc and trying to survive long enough to get back to your start point while running full speed. But I mean, I can't really blame people for going full speed with the disc, you appear on radar anytime you move (beyond the snail's pace slowest speed), so there's just not much potential for sneaking past anyone.

Seriously, I'd love to see you try to sneak past me with a disk on warehouse without being noticed. I don't think it can be done. Hell, that'd be tough even against a total newbie.

Gawain

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 23, 2007, 01:42:49 PM
...aggro is always viable. ...
The difference is that stealth is very map dependent, while aggro is less so. One cannot go ahead and design a map that allows stealth but doesn't allow aggro. It's just not possible to do that.
sometimes i think invisibleman99 is the only one in the forum who feels the same ^^
i have absolutely no problem with aggro (except hostgrabs), but stealth should be a viable option on all maps. mind that im not thinking of playing 100% this way or that way, but on maps like club, 80%aggro and 20%stealth is the most effective approach. both take skill, both are fun, but atm aggro is so much easier as it works on all maps and is basically the same procedure every game.

Frelli

QuoteI'm kinda surprised that solidus and snakebit use dual uzi on steel[...]
Well they had a good tactic. Brain eats firepower in this game ;).

scope2005

Good list spekkio,

Now is a good time to talk about way's in which the initial clone can be cleaned up and refined, before the game is actually expanded and improved upon.

Although some of the bug's there such as host advantage with detection boxes while jumping enemies/ hearing poison mines/ and warping seem to be tied more to the poor netcode created by ubisoft for thier online Splinter-Cell titles, and doesn't sound like anything that the PS team would even consider replicating even in thier early clones :)

As with all of the Unreal Tournament's, they are designed primarily as online multiplayer games so the netcode has always been pretty solid for each release in my experience.
As I understand it, When a developer licences the Unreal engine the netcode is either a seperate fee, or it is not included at all. Requiring the developer to write thier own as it seemed Ubisoft did resulted in a sometimes poor online experience with oddities such as warping and poor hit detection.
If Ubisoft had used Epic's official netcode for both SCPT and SCCT, then I believe these problems would have been few and far between.

If UT3's netcode is as stable as its predecessors, then I think PS will be quite free of the annoyances of warping and host advantage related bugs, which is one of the reasons why it is best off as a mod for an existing and well reputed game, than a game built from scratch on an open source engine ;)

Neverdown

- Snares cant be really shot in ct by mercs. Snare hitboxes should be inproved