What should the ROF be? Like Pandora Tomorrow? I personally prefer the PT rifle's ROF.
Will there even be burst? If so, the bullets should maybe do some extra damage, be more accurate, or have a faster ROF. Right now the only burst is good for is conserving ammunition.
Sniper mode. I believe that there should be a considerable amount of sway that makes it a little difficult to hit someone unless they are holding their breath. The recoil should maybe be increased a little bit. Give the rifle some better zoom capabilities. Maybe there aren't fixed points but you can hold down a button (or your mouse wheel) and it will gradually zoom forward. (You don't really have zooming limits except for the maximum)
Should we give it attachments or just make shotty and uzi? Like we would give it a shotgun attachment and that would take away the scope or something. Or you could give it a drum fed magazine and take away the scope and add iron sights to make up for the uzi's absence.
What are your opinion's on this topic?
Leave the rifle alone!
Yeah, don't mess with the rifles too much, they're quite fine as they are now (CT).
Leave the rifle be....
Btw It's showes that you don't snipe at all and hate logic (extra damage for burst wtf... have to hold breath for a 10 yards target... cmon)
the only thing i believe that should be changed is the fact that when you zoom in, when you move upwards and downwards its considerable slower than when you move left and right.
Burst fire is fine as it is. the plus to it is it gives less recoil because you cant waste a whole clip in one click + hold of the mouse button.
I'd like to see the snipe being like in PT, while the rest can be left as-is.
i'd like to see a one weapon system with the pt rifle + flashlight/laser while using scope + some boost for burst like ultra high rof with no recoil during the 3 shots + no random sway/hold breath + useful tazer attachment as a selectable gadget.
it's versatile, sniping can be averted by chaff/ss heady/flash etc and has the drawback of low mobility and low fov. if you want some extra low range capability, use tazer.
i suggest implementing and testing this first. if you still feel the need to add uzi and shotgun, lower the uzi's clip size and make the shotty hit where the crosshair is, at least at low range.
Quote from: Gawain on December 24, 2007, 11:38:45 PM
it's versatile, sniping can be averted by chaff/ss heady/flash etc and has the drawback of low mobility and low fov. if you want some extra low range capability, use tazer.
The problem is that it's not a drawback, because sniping is used for snap shots, not extended periods. The scope is up, and then down in like under 2 seconds, so it really doesn't slow you at all.
I hate when people talk about the low FoV like it's even remotely an issue.
Now, I'd like to modify sniping mechanics to make it an issue, but right now, it's clearly not.
I agree Gawain. Do you think there should be attachments to make up for the other weapon's absence though? You know, if they are gone. I'm suggesting a drum magazine as an attachment so you can just continue to spray bullets. The downside is that you lose your scope, and you only have iron sights. Same with shotgun. You give it a shotgun attachment and you lose your scope, no iron sights either.
I really do think that burst fire should be boosted. There really is no point to using it right now unless you are running low on ammo, and you can easily refill your ammunition anyways. I think that there should be less recoil, more accuracy, or maybe a slight boost in damage it does. Either that or you just remove it from the game entirely.
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 24, 2007, 10:38:23 PM
Btw It's showes that you don't snipe at all and hate logic (extra damage for burst wtf... have to hold breath for a 10 yards target... cmon)
Wtf? Right now it is too easy to snipe. Extra damage for burst just gives you a reason to even use it. Like I said before, it has no point right now. 10 yard target? Pff, sniper is for long ranges buddy. You wouldn't have to hold your breath for a 10 yard target, I never said that. At LONGER ranges it would be quite necessary to hold your breath.
Quote from: Overstatement on December 24, 2007, 10:06:46 PM
Leave the rifle alone!
If we are taking the best parts of PT and CT, I think that the Pandora's ROF is a better part.
Yeah, but imo the PT snipe is the better part, not the rof, cause you have tazer, nades and mines to compensate for your near-uzi rof.
I never saw the usefulness of burst fire in CT, since it just fires bullets at a lower rate without any accuracy or ROF bonus.
i think we should look deeper into a one-weapon system. with a balanced tazer, shotty would have even less use. with smoother aiming, no lag and hit-animation related bs and a slightly higher rifle rof, uzi would be redundant, too.
That's what he was refering to. The new engine. ::)
Quote from: Gawain on December 25, 2007, 03:12:39 PM
i think we should look deeper into a one-weapon system. with a balanced tazer, shotty would have even less use. with smoother aiming, no lag and hit-animation related bs and a slightly higher rifle rof, uzi would be redundant, too.
I don't think that a one weapon system is entirely a bad idea, but last I heard kebab wasn't going to do that, so we're wasting our time talking about it, since it's not going to be implemented anyway.
there are more people on the dev crew XD
this is one of the many reasons why i think someone should be responsible for the whole gameplay/balance decisions...
It was already stated that all 3 weapons will still be included in a modified manner.
Quote from: Gawain on December 25, 2007, 07:26:56 PM
there are more people on the dev crew XD
this is one of the many reasons why i think someone should be responsible for the whole gameplay/balance decisions...
Which is actually a really bad idea, because in that case, the whole game would turn into the game the responsible person would like to have. I would prefer a team thinking and reasoning about the important gameplay/balance issues. Multiple eyes always see more than one pair does.
Quote from: BurningDeath on December 25, 2007, 07:43:16 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 25, 2007, 07:26:56 PM
there are more people on the dev crew XD
this is one of the many reasons why i think someone should be responsible for the whole gameplay/balance decisions...
Which is actually a really bad idea, because in that case, the whole game would turn into the game the responsible person would like to have. I would prefer a team thinking and reasoning about the important gameplay/balance issues. Multiple eyes always see more than one pair does.
How right you are. Unfortunately there are several people who are close-minded about certain topics. Then it turns into a flame war, etc.
P.S. its out of our (your) hands unless your on the dev team. How many times has already stated this? They would have to pick this "team" regardless, which could just end up being the dev team again. Nice suggestion, but it cannot be one person in charge of what they consider to be "balanced".
the funny thing is, there are some heavy arguments in favor of a one weapon system. the only point against it i can remember was "rifle doesn't suit my playstile".
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 26, 2007, 04:58:07 AM
P.S. its out of our (your) hands unless your on the dev team. How many times has already stated this? They would have to pick this "team" regardless, which could just end up being the dev team again. Nice suggestion, but it cannot be one person in charge of what they consider to be "balanced".
ow .. with "team" i was meaning the whole, already assembled dev-team, of course. ;)
@ Gawain: What would those heavy arguments in favor of a one weapon system be?
Pro 3 weapon system:
+ variation
+ the CT style weapon system is already quite balanced (imo)
+ no "one for all" rifle, but different ones, with their own benefits and drawbacks
+ one more option to change your equipment to suit your opponents
"rifle doesnt suit my play
style" is actually rather pro 3 weapons, because you can just switch to uzi or shotgun.
one weapon makes balancing of the weapon, maps, gadgets, moves etc 100000times easier.
the shotty is pretty pointless for good players, especially with a balanced tazer. so the question is, do we really want a spam weapon (uzi) with less tactical weak points than the rifle?
Well, you can make uzi a balanced and not spam weapon, since it's NOT ct.
Uzi should be hard to aim, do little damage, but have the (spray and forget) advantage.
Even when that is done, i don't think it will outpower rifle, since it has snipe.
Quote from: Gawain on December 26, 2007, 05:04:44 PM
one weapon makes balancing of the weapon, maps, gadgets, moves etc 100000times easier.
the shotty is pretty pointless for good players, especially with a balanced tazer. so the question is, do we really want a spam weapon (uzi) with less tactical weak points than the rifle?
I don't get how the shotgun is pointless, you're very well able to surprise the opposing team by bringing it, on the right map, with the right partner, of course.
you won't be able to surprise a good spy in close (= effective shotty range) very often. you also can't really cover more than one objective with it. shotty is rather useful in situations like failed quick cams, getting rid of a spy that covers his mate for too long or anticipating a spy that tries to taze you (stupid situation anyways). if you really want to keep the shotty, it needs a serious boost. you should consider that 2 rifle bullets in the head kill a spy with full health, and about 2 or 3 (can't remember exactly) uzi shots do the same. the reason why good players don't play with uzi that much is the lag bs it causes and the unsmooth mouse implementation (especially with no fps unlock), definitely not for the reason that sniper is the uba-weapon.
The shotgun is superior if the spies are aggroing - one shot and they're dead, up close.
And that the rifle doesn't suit someone's playstyle is a quite heavy argument: The game should be playable in many different ways.
it is already playable in many different ways. for competitive play you need something to rely on, like which weapon the mercs are using (compare to SS). what i don't like is gadget guessing games. flashbangs, chaff etc can be balanced way better with a one weapon sys.
one of the many problems of a three weapon sys is the fact that on some maps uzi will have almost no weak points, and on other maps shotty will be redundant. it's not like "i'm that type of player, so i take A/B/C", it's rather "oh we're playing on map A/B/C so i'll take C".
overall, i would be happy both with a balanced 1 or 3 weapon system, bu i think the later is very hard to accomplish. gameplay variety isn't that much of a reason with many more balanced gadgets available like tazer, camo, etc
What about if we made extra weapons a gadget. So you get one gun for free, but if you want, you can take others instead of a gadget. So you could go rifle/shotgun if you wanted, and you could swap out your weapon (like in most FPS games) while you're moving. That'd allow us to make the weapons a bit more specialized.
That sounds interesting. Like in COD4 I take a an uzi as my backup to my sniper (golden dragonuv, badass). But the downside is that it costs me one of my perks to be able to take the uzi. The upside is that I can atleast defend myself at close range.
Sounds overpowered to me.
Unless taking 2 guns negatively affects both in some way. Lower ROF for uzi or more spread, less damage for the sniper or more time before you are in snipe-mode, and lower capacity for shotty.
Quote from: frvge on December 26, 2007, 09:21:15 PM
Sounds overpowered to me.
Unless taking 2 guns negatively affects both in some way. Lower ROF for uzi or more spread, less damage for the sniper or more time before you are in snipe-mode, and lower capacity for shotty.
I figure the main drawback, was that switching guns might have a slight delay to put one away and take out the other. So it's still possible to catch a rifle user off guard if you take him by surprise and he won't have time to switch to the shotty. Also the other drawback is that you have 1 less gadget, which can be pretty bad too.
As far as the overpowered, about the only thing it really does is eliminate the need for the tazer, since people will probably just take the shotty instead.
There is nothing unbalanced about a 3 weapon system. Nor is it harder to balance. If you are a spy and you are dumb enough to go toe to toe with a shotgun or an uzi then you deserve to die. In CT and PT you move faster than a merc, use your speed to stay ahead of him and use your teammate as a look out to prevent being caught unaware. Or use spy bullet if you don't have a reliable mate.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on December 26, 2007, 10:18:14 PM
There is nothing unbalanced about a 3 weapon system. Nor is it harder to balance.
sorry, but this is total bullshit. there are tons of implications, just like changing the SS would cause.
IT would take the same effort to balance 3 guns as it would to balance 1 gun with a shitload of accessories. 1 weapon system with 3 firing styles would be the same as 3 weapons systems with 1 firing style.
Quote from: Gawain on December 27, 2007, 12:16:31 AM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on December 26, 2007, 10:18:14 PM
There is nothing unbalanced about a 3 weapon system. Nor is it harder to balance.
sorry, but this is total bullshit. there are tons of implications, just like changing the SS would cause.
If you're so much smarter than everyone, including the devs of PS, why don't you go and make your own Mod?
Quote from: Gawain on December 26, 2007, 07:00:47 PM
what i don't like is gadget guessing games. flashbangs, chaff etc can be balanced way better with a one weapon sys.
I don't think it would be a guessing game as much as a requirement to adapt, which is a good thing IMO.
Anytime you add choices, whatever those choices may be, the game becomes harder to balance. Of course, choices also add to the game and make it more diverse.
So yeah, there's certainly something to be said for taking away people's choices. That makes it a lot easier on the design team. We could even go DA style where every merc has frags, drones, and a rifle and that's it. Of course, the same thing makes the game less diverse and interesting. Generally the fewer choices, the less tactics and the more twitch skills come into play, as it becomes more about mastering your gear rather than making the right choices.
The only problem with that theory, again, is that you make your choices blind, before the match starts, and you're locked into them permanently.
Also, the game is still about mastering gear, even with more choices.
The end result is a bit of a "guessing game" when it comes to equipment. You guess right, you have an advantage. You guess wrong, well, you're fucked.
I mean, let's imagine for a second that sticky cams weren't as advantageous, so they aren't taken by 99% of players anymore. Someone who takes flash/chaff/snares/HB would render your gasmask absolutely useless, and you have no way of knowing before hand.
Well, honestly that's too bad for the merc. No way around that really. But hey, atleast it can still protect you from fire extinguisher dust. ;D So it's not "useless".
thisis pretty funny , you guys shredding reality to bits for the love of what you think splinter cell is .
its already been decided but they let you spam on here to attract attention lol . and im the bad one
it's hard enough to balance one weapon properly. don't forget that weapon balance also affects map balance/design and the other gadgets usefullness.
some math: you have 6 (!) different weapon combinations considering that there are two players in one team (way more with tazer). there are 70 different gadget loadout possibilities with 4 out of 8, and an insane amount of combinations within a team.
just imagine the gameplay variety with a balanced tazer, burst firing mode, camo, flash, ph. nades etc
you also have to understand that this is a stealth game where there are already tons of guessing games inside. there have to be certain consistent mechanics/rules in a game that you can count on. too much possibilities isn't always good for the gameplay.
All this seems so complicated. I didn't play much Chaos Theory Because I began playing Splinter Cell games late (started at SCDA) But when I DID start it. I got my ass handed to me because everybody knew every nook and cranny of the game. So it made people reluctant to play again. I Own at SCDA but I just want more out of a stealth game now that i've seen a decent one unlike SOMEBODY's Online component (Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistance).
So that said, I'm more used to the Assault rifle/ Sniper/ Flashlight combo. But if you guys have something better in mind, i'm down to try it. But some things are best kept simple and unchanged (with the exception of tweaks for balance and feel)
the rifle worked fine in pt, da and even in ct...
The weapon you choose should be based more on the map not on the other team's equip. If it is a map where the spy is forced to use relatively narrow hallways and come into close proximity of a merc then the shotgun is an excellent choice. If it is a fairly open map but the rooms aren't to big then the uzi is a good choice because the spy can't distance it enough. If the map has big long open rooms then the rifle is a good choice because it lets you snipe. This discussion is about weapons so examples involving other equipment have no real bearing here. Your weapon choice has virtually nothing to do with equipment, only the environment.
EDIT: I should also add that your partner's weapon choice can have a big impact here as well. If the map has areas good for a long range weapon mixed with areas good for close range weapons then you should coordinate with your partner and whoever is better at sniping take the rifle and guard the more open areas while the other players can take a close range weapon and guard the tighter areas.
A good example from CT would be the Orphanage first floor. A shotgun is highly effective around the Storage and Laundry while the other player can snipe the hallways and stay in close proximity to Canteen. A few well placed mines and moving the tin cans to locations where the spy can't pass without making noise gives ample time for the rifle user to retreat into the Canteen.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on December 27, 2007, 07:03:15 PM
The weapon you choose should be based more on the map not on the other team's equip. If it is a map where the spy is forced to use relatively narrow hallways and come into close proximity of a merc then the shotgun is an excellent choice. If it is a fairly open map but the rooms aren't to big then the uzi is a good choice because the spy can't distance it enough. If the map has big long open rooms then the rifle is a good choice because it lets you snipe. This discussion is about weapons so examples involving other equipment have no real bearing here, I.E. gas mask and cameras.
Or tazer.
QuoteThe weapon you choose should be based more on the map not on the other team's equip. If it is a map where the spy is forced to use relatively narrow hallways and come into close proximity of a merc then the shotgun is an excellent choice. If it is a fairly open map but the rooms aren't to big then the uzi is a good choice because the spy can't distance it enough. If the map has big long open rooms then the rifle is a good choice because it lets you snipe. This discussion is about weapons so examples involving other equipment have no real bearing here. Your weapon choice has virtually nothing to do with equipment, only the environment
Two problems:
1. Most maps include multiple environments, ie both wide, open areas and short, narrow areas.
2. The implication is that the spy can get screwed here. Smoke grenades are much better against mercs with uzi/shotgun because they always have to chase you. Flashbangs are better vs. snipers because it gives you the half second you need to taze --> run. Therefore, the spies will start to try to base their equipment on what the merc takes, even if the merc doesn't think about what the spy is doing.
What you just said is like this: spy's take cams because they can KO the mercs, not because it counters anything. However, mercs take mask because it specifically counters cams and smoke grenades.
I suppose the easy fix is to make sure that no optional equipment items directly counter each other.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 27, 2007, 08:08:21 PM
What you just said is like this: spy's take cams because they can KO the mercs, not because it counters anything. However, mercs take mask because it specifically counters cams and smoke grenades.
I suppose the easy fix is to make sure that no optional equipment items directly counter each other.
Yeah, honestly, gas mask could just be a built-in merc thing, because that's the only true counter gadget that becomes completely useless if the spies take a different loadout. Of course, honestly I don't even think that's necessary because all spies take cams, and I don't figure that'll change much in PS, since it's such a deviation from core gameplay.
I thought we had such a consensus at the start of this thread. Are people buying this balancing argument or is it just a 1 or 2 trying to argue it?
Quote from: Overstatement on December 27, 2007, 09:35:59 PM
I thought we had such a consensus at the start of this thread. Are people buying this balancing argument or is it just a 1 or 2 trying to argue it?
It was stated that there wasn't a consensus yet. In fact....by you:
QuoteGoodkebab always talks in a "there will not be..." way instead of "I think it should be...". I think it's just how he communicates and doesn't mean there has been a final decision on it.
I mean a forum consensus. The first page of this thread was filled with people thought we shouldn't change it much.
o i know..lol
binary, i have to disagree with you. why do you think that shotgun/uzi is better for the gameplay in a narrow map? it's better for the merc, but the spies already have a hard time in narrow corridors. it's like saying a jetpack is good for the gameplay, as it allows spies to move more quickly in vertically oriented maps.
Quote from: Gawain on December 27, 2007, 11:52:18 PM
binary, i have to disagree with you. why do you think that shotgun/uzi is better for the gameplay in a narrow map?
Because the spies have to stay away from the mercs and take a different, uncovered route then, moving unseen.
If you get caught by a merc carrying a shotgun in a narrow corridor, you either didn't know or didn't play right.
I feel the shotgun probably needs a boost, or some kind of redesign.
The shotgun does its job well, but the problem is that it sucks at everything within medium or long range. You can't shoot out bombs, cams or spybullets well... you are a joke against a spy hacking at long distance (making you very vulnerable to the run around hack strategy). And what you get back is decent, but not great. Close range with the shotgun is what the PT tazer did for you before. If the tazer didn't suck in CT, I don't think the shotgun would have any appeal at all.
The key to dominate a map with shotgun is a good knowledge of the various benefits that grenades can give you. ;)
Rifle does not need changing other than the fact that burst fire was not useful at all so take that out. The shotgun or uzi needs some modifying so people would actually use them more often because as of now people hardly ever use either of them at all.
Quote from: Wandering_Youth on December 28, 2007, 10:07:16 AM
Rifle does not need changing other than the fact that burst fire was not useful at all so take that out. The shotgun or uzi needs some modifying so people would actually use them more often because as of now people hardly ever use either of them at all.
Uzi sucks...lol
I flamed it...getting it out of my system. Modifications to both would work well. I'm sure the devs are adjusting this.
Quote from: BurningDeath on December 28, 2007, 01:32:17 AM
The key to dominate a map with shotgun is a good knowledge of the various benefits that grenades can give you. ;)
A key to dominate any map takes good knowledge of the various benefits grenades give you. As well as mines.
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 28, 2007, 11:30:52 AM
Quote from: Wandering_Youth on December 28, 2007, 10:07:16 AM
Rifle does not need changing other than the fact that burst fire was not useful at all so take that out. The shotgun or uzi needs some modifying so people would actually use them more often because as of now people hardly ever use either of them at all.
Uzi sucks...lol
I flamed it...getting it out of my system. Modifications to both would work well. I'm sure the devs are adjusting this.
Quote from: BurningDeath on December 28, 2007, 01:32:17 AM
The key to dominate a map with shotgun is a good knowledge of the various benefits that grenades can give you. ;)
A key to dominate any map takes good knowledge of the various benefits grenades give you. As well as mines.
Yes, of course, but grenades are essential if you want to bring the shotgun. That's what I wanted to point out. ;)
burning death, you didn't get my point: if there's a whole narrow area/map, taking uzi or shotty is unbalanced because the spies already got a disadvantage in those areas.
as spekkio pointed out, smoke/flash/chaff affect the three weapons in a different way, which is a bad thing.
i think the burst should fire with a way higher rof.
discussing about the shotty is bs, and the uzi is just a no-brainer rifle.
Quote from: Gawain on December 28, 2007, 01:40:47 PM
discussing about the shotty is bs, and the uzi is just a no-brainer rifle.
Not really sure why people think the rifle requires brains. It's just twitch skills aiming for the head. That's it. See head. Shoot head. No brains required.
The rifle tends to be a bit harder to use for newbies simply because the aiming mechanics take a while to get used to. Unlike most games with sniping you don't remain in sniping mode for long periods of time. Sniping in CT works best as a series of snap shots. So the technique is difficult for some people to master. Further the rifle basically relies on you to almost exclusively use the scope whenever you can. And that's a skill most people aren't used to.
The uzi on the other hand is your basic FPS gun. It works like any fully automatic weapon on any other FPS game. There's far less learning curve with the uzi.
well, you can't spam that much with the rifle. flashbangs and chaff have a way stronger effect on a rifle user. and even if it's just for seconds, the smaller fov and mobility while sniping do have an effect (better target for quickcams etc).
i'd go for the rifle because it's versatile, but also has enough weak points. the pt rifle with a selectable (balanced) tazer seems perfectly balanced to me. like stated before, the snap headshots happen quite rarely.
another aspect is that a one-weapon system is better for competitive play.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 28, 2007, 01:00:11 AM
I feel the shotgun probably needs a boost, or some kind of redesign.
The shotgun does its job well, but the problem is that it sucks at everything within medium or long range. You can't shoot out bombs, cams or spybullets well... you are a joke against a spy hacking at long distance (making you very vulnerable to the run around hack strategy). And what you get back is decent, but not great. Close range with the shotgun is what the PT tazer did for you before. If the tazer didn't suck in CT, I don't think the shotgun would have any appeal at all.
Agreed
Quote from: Gawain on December 28, 2007, 01:40:47 PM
burning death, you didn't get my point: if there's a whole narrow area/map, taking uzi or shotty is unbalanced because the spies already got a disadvantage in those areas.
Erm .. this argument is completely void, because there won't be any maps that only contain narrow corridors.
Quote from: Gawain on December 28, 2007, 01:40:47 PM
discussing about the shotty is bs, and the uzi is just a no-brainer rifle.
Why is discussing about the shotgun bs? How can discussing anything by bullshit anyways?
And how is the uzi a no-brainer-rifle? You still have to aim very carefully, otherwise you just get SSed and the spy is gone. Spray and pray only helps in few situations.
Quote from: BurningDeath on December 28, 2007, 04:12:05 PM
Why is discussing about the shotgun bs? How can discussing anything by bullshit anyways?
And how is the uzi a no-brainer-rifle? You still have to aim very carefully, otherwise you just get SSed and the spy is gone. Spray and pray only helps in few situations.
it should always be possible for a good careful spy to SS you. that's one of the reasons why shotty sux, besides a useful tazer etc
uzi is the strongest weapon at the most common fight distances and has almost no weak point at all.
uzi is the strongest weapon at the most common fight distances and has almost no weak point at all.
[/quote]
yet almost everyone plays with the sniper, hmmm strange...
uzi is likely to causes lag and hit-animation bs and has a bad reputation because it reputedly takes less skill. besides it's hard to aim with uzi without the fps unlock.
there are some quite good players with uzi, and no good players with shotty at all.
Quote from: BurningDeath on December 28, 2007, 04:12:05 PM
And how is the uzi a no-brainer-rifle? You still have to aim very carefully, otherwise you just get SSed and the spy is gone. Spray and pray only helps in few situations.
Yeah, you've got to line up your shots with the uzi to deal damage you care about. This isn't rainbow 6 where a single shot from an automatic can take you out. You still need aim to use the uzi. If anything I've always felt automatics take more skill than single shot weapons because you have to actually sustain a cone of fire on your foe, instead of relying on just timing a single powerful shot.
That's what the laser is for.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 30, 2007, 03:24:16 PM
That's what the laser is for.
The laser makes me less accurate, not more so, only because it's sometimes difficult to tell where the gun itself is pointed while using the laser. Unlikes the spy laser, it doesn't produce a single red dot on where you want to fire, but rather a long beam that actually makes it tougher to aim. At least for me anyway. I'll take a crosshair over the laser anyday.
I'm sure we can fix that. I have a problem with that myself too sometimes. Especially when using the Uzi.
Should there be a distinct dot on where the end of the laser hits? It should also be easier to tell the laser beam apart from the muzzle flash.
Quote from: a3c0i3d on December 29, 2007, 12:04:17 PM
yet almost everyone plays with the sniper, hmmm strange...
try that : go in a random server and play with the uzi or shotty... kick the host's ass for a few round... and you'll get kick-out of the server
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 31, 2007, 07:14:46 PM
kick the host's ass for a few round... and you'll get kick-out of the server
That happens on most servers even if you don't have uzi or shotty.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 31, 2007, 07:25:54 PM
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 31, 2007, 07:14:46 PM
kick the host's ass for a few round... and you'll get kick-out of the server
That happens on most servers even if you don't have uzi or shotty.
Yup. If the host is getting his ass kicked, hes probably going to kick you. The rest of it is just an excuse.
If anything qualifies for a cheap weapon, I'd say the rifle is #1. At least with the uzi or shotgun you're probably going to hear the merc closing in before you just die. You may never see it when you get sniped. And that feels cheaper to me than a merc getting a lucky hit with the shotgun that happens to 1 shot kill you, or the ever so reviled "uzi lag" that people whine about.
I don't experience uzi lag that much, if ever. If you are talking about the fact that your screen goes red when you get shot and you get repeatedly shot so you are blind, it happens sometimes. If you get repeatedly shot so you can't see it doesn't really matter, because you would die if you could see anyways. Remove the red screen effect when shot, you'll still be shot whether you can see a lot. Why? The uzi sprays bullets, a lot of them.
I don't think shotgun is that cheap. If you get close to a merc with shotgun, that is your fault.
invisibleman, that's not cheap, it's one of the basic game mechanics. the spies are not meant to know the mercs' position all the time. it's one of few killing opportunities and with proper recon / awareness on the spy side it's no real problem for the spies. the only areas this happenes sometimes to me is on the containers (polar base) and in main hall (factory), and usually i can get away before being killed.
Quote from: Gawain on January 01, 2008, 02:56:30 PM
invisibleman, that's not cheap, it's one of the basic game mechanics. the spies are not meant to know the mercs' position all the time. it's one of few killing opportunities and with proper recon / awareness on the spy side it's no real problem for the spies. the only areas this happenes sometimes to me is on the containers (polar base) and in main hall (factory), and usually i can get away before being killed.
I didn't say it was cheap, I said it "feels cheaper" than the uzi or shotgun getting a kill. The reason I point that out is because a lot of people bitch and whine about the uzi or sometimes even the shotgun (especially PC players). Honestly, I don't even see it. I didn't really even see how the PT tazer was supposedly "cheap" either. People seem to have more objection to a shotgun blast or tazer taking out a spy at point blank range, more so than a sniper that can kill you across the level. It honestly makes zero sense to me.
If people going to call something cheap, I'd think it'd be the rifle. I don't really get where the PT tazer, uzi or shotgun get a bad rap from.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 01, 2008, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 01, 2008, 02:56:30 PM
invisibleman, that's not cheap, it's one of the basic game mechanics. the spies are not meant to know the mercs' position all the time. it's one of few killing opportunities and with proper recon / awareness on the spy side it's no real problem for the spies. the only areas this happenes sometimes to me is on the containers (polar base) and in main hall (factory), and usually i can get away before being killed.
I didn't say it was cheap, I said it "feels cheaper" than the uzi or shotgun getting a kill. The reason I point that out is because a lot of people bitch and whine about the uzi or sometimes even the shotgun (especially PC players). Honestly, I don't even see it. I didn't really even see how the PT tazer was supposedly "cheap" either. People seem to have more objection to a shotgun blast or tazer taking out a spy at point blank range, more so than a sniper that can kill you across the level. It honestly makes zero sense to me.
If people going to call something cheap, I'd think it'd be the rifle. I don't really get where the PT tazer, uzi or shotgun get a bad rap from.
Cheaper than the uzi or the canon? Please. Uzi blasts and lags. Once they start shooting, if the spy gets hit, they are stuck in the twilight zone for 3 sec until the clip unloads and kills them.
Shotgun has always been cheap. I guess I just don't believe in the one hit wonder from close range. Granted it goes with all guns, but 1 shot...BLAST....dead....how....not climactic. Whereas headshot, well, shouldn't have been in the scope right? Same can be said about uzi and shotgun, but they don't really require much. Tazzer is along the lines of a shotgun. Same bullshit kill. Talk about unbalance.
w/e your preference, all 3 will be in. All 3 probably won't even get touched. I'll stick to the rifle + scope combo.
I'd say no gun is cheap. If you are close up to a merc, he should kill ya. If you don't look around enough to see that you are being watched by a merc, he should kill ya.
QuoteI didn't say it was cheap, I said it "feels cheaper" than the uzi or shotgun getting a kill. The reason I point that out is because a lot of people bitch and whine about the uzi or sometimes even the shotgun (especially PC players). Honestly, I don't even see it. I didn't really even see how the PT tazer was supposedly "cheap" either. People seem to have more objection to a shotgun blast or tazer taking out a spy at point blank range, more so than a sniper that can kill you across the level. It honestly makes zero sense to me.
It makes perfect sense. Pointing at someone's head takes a lot more precision and coordination, hence "skill", than pointing at someone's entire body because the head is a lot smaller on the screen.
You also have to take into account the fact that, in the case of the rifle vs. the uzi, the ROF makes the uzi more forgiving. If you miss the first shot, you can adjust and shoot again much more quickly than you can with a scoped rifle.
The shotgun and tazer do not need to hit such a small area to get an instant kill. You can hit the player anywhere on the body. This is why people object to it. On top of that, the shotgun's insta-gibbing is random. Getting a headshot with the rifle takes significantly more hand-eye coordination on the player's part.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 01, 2008, 10:59:18 PM
QuoteI didn't say it was cheap, I said it "feels cheaper" than the uzi or shotgun getting a kill. The reason I point that out is because a lot of people bitch and whine about the uzi or sometimes even the shotgun (especially PC players). Honestly, I don't even see it. I didn't really even see how the PT tazer was supposedly "cheap" either. People seem to have more objection to a shotgun blast or tazer taking out a spy at point blank range, more so than a sniper that can kill you across the level. It honestly makes zero sense to me.
It makes perfect sense. Pointing at someone's head takes a lot more precision and coordination, hence "skill", than pointing at someone's entire body because the head is a lot smaller on the screen.
You also have to take into account the fact that, in the case of the rifle vs. the uzi, the ROF makes the uzi more forgiving. If you miss the first shot, you can adjust and shoot again much more quickly than you can with a scoped rifle.
The shotgun and tazer do not need to hit such a small area to get an instant kill. You can hit the player anywhere on the body. This is why people object to it. Getting a headshot with the rifle takes significantly more hand-eye coordination on the player's part.
$$$
Quote from: Spekkio on January 01, 2008, 10:59:18 PM
It makes perfect sense. Pointing at someone's head takes a lot more precision and coordination, hence "skill", than pointing at someone's entire body because the head is a lot smaller on the screen.
You also have to take into account the fact that, in the case of the rifle vs. the uzi, the ROF makes the uzi more forgiving. If you miss the first shot, you can adjust and shoot again much more quickly than you can with a scoped rifle.
Well honestly, I don't care how much "skill" it takes. I'm just concerned about what it actually does. The shotgun or PT tazer only kills you if you get close. Seriously. You can easily prevent yourself from getting shotgun killed just by avoiding the merc. And calling the shotgun cheesy? I mean come on... The shotgun is the weakest weapon in the game. So it can kill you easily at close range. That's all it does. If a player has to whine about someone using a shotgun, just give up this game now. How about try using a little bit of stealth and stop aggroing the mercs. If I had a choice of what weapon the mercs would take, I'd give them all shotguns, and I'll tell you what, I'd win a ton of games, against even good mercs. "Cheap" my ass.
The uzi, despite what people think, isn't the massive insta-kill weapon everyone says ti is. Sure, once in a while you catch a lag burst, but the majority of time, it's relatively easy to get away. I deal with uzis all the time on xbox and while you're almost sure to take damage running away from an uzi, you're not going to die most of the time. It's just as uber as most people say it is. Not to mention that like the shotgun, you've got to be relatively close to get torn up by an uzi. Even at medium range, its effectiveness is significantly lower and you better be pretty good at aiming to hold the firing cone down on your target. The uzi still requires some aim to kill a moving target. You're almost assured to damage the spy, but you won't kill him unless you're good with it.
The rifle, on the other hand, while requiring slightly more "skill" and I say slightly because the majority of snipes happen to be while your'e hacking stuff, has a bunch more cheese associated wtih it. You can die to a host rifle before you even see the guy shooting. Like on Aqua. Say you're hacking pirates. A good sniper, especially a host sniper, can kill you by just sliding out from the bridge or the tech room platform and basically insta-snipe you. You've got like no reaction time. I seriously don't care what minor amount of skill it requires to memorize the screen position of the spies head at the proper objective. That's way cheaper to me than any uzi or shotgun kill.
And there's other cheap shit you can do with the rifle too, that doesn't even involve getting kills. Like on missile strike, tehre's one bunker bomb you can shoot from up above on the walks if you took the sniper. Again, shooting a stationary target, not big on skill.
I mean, I can see people who have the any weapon goes, attitude. But banning the uzi or shotgun because it's cheap, that's just sad. While the uzi and shotgun may have some issues, they pale in comparison to all the shit you can do with a rifle that's cheap, cheesy or outright lame.
oh, you can do something against it. you can estimate the safe time to hack by recon and experience, you can use spy bullets, let your mate cover you, listen for the going-into-zoom noise (with eax you can hear it almost on the whole map like shooting nades lolz) etc
shotty isn't cheap, it's just crap. sniper isn't cheap, it's the most balanced weapon as it is highly lethal but has significant weak points as pointed out several times before. if there's a cheap weapon, it's the uzi. obviously you have very little to none experience with the pc version, so i can understand why you think in a different way.
How much skill it takes to get an instant kill is at the very basis of this argument. The amount of hand-eye coordination it takes to use a weapon is at the very heart of how they need to be balanced. You cannot just discount that.
I agree that the shotgun is the worst gun in the game because its inept at anything beyond close range. However, the randomness of the gun insta-gibbing people is still frustrating. It's comparable to facing a insta-frag cannon. Most of the time your opponent fires it off hopelessly, but then the laws of probability kick in and you start getting instant kills with it. Sometimes these kills happen at quite a decent range, too. The irony of the shotgun is that it works better in lag because of the remnants of console coded auto-aim. What's even more frustrating is knowing that your opponent got that kill purely based upon randomness. You can't even tip your hat and say "nice shot, sir," because it wasn't.
I realize that some people still prefer to take the shotgun, and all the power to you. I'm not calling those people any sort of derogatory names or anything like that. However, my point, as it was before, is that you cannot make a good argument that the amount of skill it takes to insta-gib a spy with the shotgun is anywhere near the amount of skill that it takes to insta-gib a spy with the rifle.
I truly think that the shotgun should be re-worked so that it's slightly more effective at longer ranges, ie you can shoot people off hacks from longer range and get those pesky spy bullets off the wall, and take away the fact that it can insta-gib a spy. Aside from that, though, I think that if the tazer was better than complete shit that the shotgun would be overlooked even more than it already is.
The uzi is powerful because it allows players who ordinarilly can't snipe to compensate with a kick-ass full-auto weapon. In other words, player A and B are in a game. Player A is an outstanding marksman. Player B is mediocre. By opting for the uzi, player B now levels the field because he has a weapon that compensates for his lack of hand-eye coordination through over double the ROF and more than half the power.
Some numbers for you: Both the uzi and rifle empty their magazines in 10 seconds. That means that the uzi shoots 6 shots/sec, while the rifle shoots 2.5 shots/sec. In zoom mode, the rifle can only shoot 1 shot/sec.
At close range (about the effective range of the shotgun), both the uzi and the rifle will kill a spy with 2 full-auto headshots. This takes less than 1 second with both weapons. If you were to zoom with the rifle, it would take around 1 second to get the kill -- despite what you said later in your post, the scope DOES take a short amount of time to activate, and that is significant. Aside from that, the scope can be disabled through flashbangs and chaffs.
Well, now let's look at the body: The rifle will kill in 3 body shots, while the uzi will kill in 4. That means it takes the rifle over 1 second to kill someone while the uzi still is comfortably under 1 second. If the rifle were to zoom and shoot at the body, it takes two shots to get the kill, which would take around 2.5 seconds.
Now here's the kicker: the Uzi has significantly less bullet spread than the rifle, thus making it an adequate long-range weapon. Sure, you won't kill the spy hacking across that wide room, but you can knock him off the objective until you get close enough to to significant damage.
What this means is three things:
1. A player using the Uzi can miss more often, ie be less accurate, and get a kill in the same amount of time as someone using the rifle. See above about the uzi compensating for a player's lack of hand-eye coordination
2. Contrary to what you've been arguing, a spy under fire from the Uzi has considerably less time to react than a spy under fire from the rifle.
3. A player using the uzi full-auto is going to hit the spy more often than a player using the rifle full-auto, just because of the bullet spread difference.
Of course, there is a tradeoff: the uzi is not effective at extremely long distances, and its full-auto damage decreases steeper as you increase range. However, how many of these cases are there in the game where sacrificing extremely long range capability would be detrimental to the game? Aside from Factory with its open rooms and numerous sniping points, and River Mall with its long layout, I can't think of any maps where sacrificing the ability to snipe from long distances would be that detrimental to the mercs. As a matter of fact, most of the game's action takes place at a range that is optimal for the uzi's powerful full-auto capabilities, especially as the game winds down and the amount of objectives are more limited. A combination of one merc with an uzi for hunting, and one merc with the rifle for covering those wide view spots works extremely well with some minor team coordination.
What I really don't like about the uzi is point #2: you can't do anything to really neutralize it. The shotgun has a long reload, which gives you time to shock the merc and get away. You can't do this to the uzi because the high frequency of bullets prevents you from aiming, even when there isn't any lag. You can try throwing smoke, but they have mask. You can try throwing a flashbang, but they have MT. You're basically stuck trying to run away from a virtual tractor beam. I really don't think you can use your experiences on the Xbox in regards to this because it is nearly impossible to keep your crosshairs focused on a moving spy with an analog stick. It is not impossible to do this with a mouse.
I honestly think that the Uzi's bullet spread needs to be wider than the rifle's when firing full-auto.
The rifle takes significantly more skill than the uzi to use. First, if you're aiming at the head, it's an all-or-nothing proposition. You hit and kill the spy, or you miss and the spy gets away with no damage to him. Second, hitting the head is a lot harder than hitting the spy anywhere on the body. Third, there is the tactical element of locating spots on the map that give you the widest amount of sniping options.
Finally, the examples you provided in your post are flawed. First of all, if you're hacking in pirates in Aqua then you should either have a bullet at the merc entrances, or you should use the HB sensor to gauge the amount of time it will take the merc to find you and get off the terminal before then (pro tip: instead of risking death for an extra 2 seconds off the terminal and whining when you get screwed over by [insert shitty game mechanic], leave before the merc even gets in the room and setup for something else). Second of all, sniping is not "instant." The delay is rather short, but it's there and makes a significant difference. Third of all, getting sniped by an invisible merc because you're on a server with 300 ping is irrelevent to the argument. The problem in that situation is lag, not the rifle. Game mechanics break down in any game where significant lag is involved, and CT is no different. Lastly, you can hit both bombs from the catwalks in Missile with the Rifle AND the Uzi.
Now, I don't care what weapons people use in my server. They're in the game, so it's all fair. When I'm host, I take the rifle out of courtesy for the other people playing on my server. If I'm a client in 150+ ping, I'm going to take the uzi because sniping becomes useless. The shotgun and uzi can compensate for a player's lack of hand-eye coordination, but the "ceiling" of their effectiveness is lower because of this. The rifle takes significantly more practice to master, and I think that it's the weapon that most separates players based upon skill. The reward to putting that effort into it is being able to cover a wider area of the map through the use of the scope. I do not see anything wrong with that.
Well written.
Well written indeed, although lag will always be a part of online gaming - the game mechanics has to be made to tolerate it.
If there's a gradual decent in the damage done by shotgun and especially uzi, then it could be balanced.
That should be codable.
That decent is already present in CT.
Holly freakin long ass post, very nice Spekkio.
My $0.02 -> If something is implimented into a game, and is not a hax, it cannot be considered cheap, yes the devs may not have balanced it, but if its there for everyone to choose then its fair game. Our devs that are creating PS are much smarter then the SC devs and I'm sure they will balance it all properly. Lastly we have to remeber this is UT3 and there are going to be actual severs and not someones POS pc (compared to servers, i'm sure most of you have nice pc's like me :))
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 02, 2008, 03:33:23 AM...actual severs and not someones POS pc
Wait... What? Is this true? Can't people host games themselves in UT?
i believe when you create a game, it is hosted on a UT server and not the actual hosts pc, like some other games. can we get clarification on this, i read it on a dif post
Quote from: Spekkio on January 02, 2008, 02:23:43 AM
2. Contrary to what you've been arguing, a spy under fire from the Uzi has considerably less time to react than a spy under fire from the rifle.
Really? I find that hard to believe. The rifle kills in one shot. That by definition means you don't get to react once you've been hit. To make matters worse, it's one shot at long range.
I mean I don't care that the rilfe happens to be ineffective at autofire the autofire part isn't even the cheap part of it. People complain because of the one shot lag snipes that happen, or the special abilities sniping gives you to take out objectives like disarming that one bomb in Missile Strike from above. And don't tell me how that takes a ton of hand-eye coordination and should be rewarded because it really doesn't.
Quote
What I really don't like about the uzi is point #2: you can't do anything to really neutralize it. The shotgun has a long reload, which gives you time to shock the merc and get away. You can't do this to the uzi because the high frequency of bullets prevents you from aiming, even when there isn't any lag. You can try throwing smoke, but they have mask. You can try throwing a flashbang, but they have MT. You're basically stuck trying to run away from a virtual tractor beam. I really don't think you can use your experiences on the Xbox in regards to this because it is nearly impossible to keep your crosshairs focused on a moving spy with an analog stick. It is not impossible to do this with a mouse.
It's not remarkably hard to aim the uzi on the xbox. A console controller lacks quick motions, so for instance doing a fast 360 is impossible. But as far as standard aiming you can lead a target pretty much just as well wtih an analog stick once you get used to it. It's actually a fine device for doing standard aiming, it just can't do quick turning well. I've played on xbox and PC and really I don't find the uzi being a remarkably different experience.
As far as neutralizing the uzi, I don't find it that difficult. There's no way to completely shut it down, but it's not an extremely specialized weapon, so that's not really a concern. The uzi is a slow killer. If you're running away from the merc who is using an uzi doing dives and rolls, chances are, you'll get away. You may be down to half health or something, but you're going to escape. at long-ranges, as you said, the best the uzi can do is shoot you and disrupt your hacking. It's not going to kill you. So again, you just pull back or taze the merc at long range and resume hacking. Worst that happens is he gets untazed and shoots you again for minor damage.
The uzi is the average all-around gun, and as such it has few weaknesses but no real glaring strengths. I guess the main thing is that you really don't have to do muhc to counter it, because it has no strengths you specifically need to worry about, unlike the rifle or shotgun. I guess the best counter to the uzi is healing yourself, because as long as you're at full life and don't let yourself get caught stationary at close range in a rape position, you'll generally be fine. The uzi just isn't that effective at medium range. It chews away at you, but you won't get killed unless you were weak to begin wtih. Hell most of the time you can run away in a straight line and be okay. Even if he's emptying the clip right at you, most of the shots will go around due to the burst fire inaccuracy. You'll get clipped a bit, but you won't get killed in the second or two it takes to disengage. The uzi is by far the least deadly weapon of the three. It deals constant reliable damage, but it's very unlikely to insta-gib like the rifle or shotty can.
If anything, I've found that the rifle is the hardest thing to counter, because there's really not much you can do against a merc shooting you at long range aside from get in a twitch duel with him where you try to SS to his head or chaff him before he shoots you in the head. That's generally a bad idea. You can run away, but then he can also hit you at long range too, so unlike the uzi you don't have the long-range buffer that helps you escape.
I guess you can try to aggro a rifle user, that seems about the best bet, but it's not like that's anywhere near reliable either.
Quote
The rifle takes significantly more skill than the uzi to use. First, if you're aiming at the head, it's an all-or-nothing proposition. You hit and kill the spy, or you miss and the spy gets away with no damage to him. Second, hitting the head is a lot harder than hitting the spy anywhere on the body. Third, there is the tactical element of locating spots on the map that give you the widest amount of sniping options.
I don't really see how "takes slightly more skill to use" is sufficient reason for making the weapon overpowered.
Really, the rifle seems similar to the shotty, in that it's an insta-gib weapon, only, unlike the shotty, it seriously doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. Instead of draw backs, it has an awkward control with a steep learning curve, which is sufficient protection against a newbie using it against you, but does you little good when you're looking to counter a pro player.
Don't confuse learning curve with a means of balance.
Quote
Lastly, you can hit both bombs from the catwalks in Missile with the Rifle AND the Uzi.
Maybe if you get a lucky shot, but it never seems to actually disarm the bombs for me. Basically, you end up emptying your whole clip and praying. It's by no means reliable.
Though personally I feel like the ability to snipe bombs should be removed. You should need to be at close range to take one out and should have to manually remove it. It'd lead to a lot less cheapness.
QuoteReally? I find that hard to believe. The rifle kills in one shot. That by definition means you don't get to react once you've been hit. To make matters worse, it's one shot at long range.
Except that, for the third time, there is a delay between pressing the sniper button and being able to fire the gun. And going into scope makes a "click" noise that the spies can hear quite clearly. In other words, you can react to the rifle before the other person even fires a shot. It's not that difficult.
QuoteThe uzi is the average all-around gun, and as such it has few weaknesses but no real glaring strengths.
The uzi has plenty of glaring strengths, mainly through it's insane full-auto capabilities paired with its pinpoint accuracy. The uzi is plenty effective at close and medium range, and healthpacks aren't always just around the corner.
QuoteIf anything, I've found that the rifle is the hardest thing to counter, because there's really not much you can do against a merc shooting you at long range aside from get in a twitch duel with him where you try to SS to his head or chaff him before he shoots you in the head.
Or bind flashbang to quick use 1 and press left click. Gee, that was difficult.
QuoteI don't really see how "takes slightly more skill to use" is sufficient reason for making the weapon overpowered.
But the rifle isn't overpowered, that's the point. The way you act, you would think that the spies die through headshots 75% of the time. That's simply not the case at all. There really is no evidence that headshots are so prevalent that the rifle can be considered overpowered. On top of that, the spies have
2 gadgets that can disable the scope entirely, and you'd be quite silly to waste your mask by sitting in a smoke cloud with the scope on. You hear the little "click" of a merc going into snipe, you drop a flash or you move. It's really quite simple.
QuoteReally, the rifle seems similar to the shotty, in that it's an insta-gib weapon, only, unlike the shotty, it seriously doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
I would consider the scope delay, low ROF, below average full-auto functionality, and the inability to work through chaff and flash grenades glaring weaknesses.
Can you disable the shotty from shooting through the use of two different gadgets? Didn't think so.
I would go so far as to say that if funny punches weren't in the game, a rifle user would be a sitting duck against a competent aggro team. This is another reason I'd rather have one, well-rounded weapon like the PT rifle -- there is no way to know how your opponents are going to play before the game starts. Guess wrong, and you're fucked.
QuoteMaybe if you get a lucky shot, but it never seems to actually disarm the bombs for me.
Then you need to learn to aim. Disarming the bombs with uzi full auto is easier than scoping it, and it's certainly easier than being forced to use full-auto with the rifle because the spy is aggroing you in a sad attempt to prevent you from disarming the bomb.
QuoteThough personally I feel like the ability to snipe bombs should be removed. You should need to be at close range to take one out and should have to manually remove it. It'd lead to a lot less cheapness.
How is that cheap??? That's like saying you have to be within X distance to shoot a bomb out with the uzi. That's stupid.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 02, 2008, 04:39:52 AM
QuoteReally? I find that hard to believe. The rifle kills in one shot. That by definition means you don't get to react once you've been hit. To make matters worse, it's one shot at long range.
Except that, for the third time, there is a delay between pressing the sniper button and being able to fire the gun. And going into scope makes a "click" noise that the spies can hear quite clearly. In other words, you can react to the rifle before the other person even fires a shot. It's not that difficult.
This must be an EAX thing, since I don't hear it very easily on xbox, except at close range, and back on PC I didn't hear it well either.
It'll be interesting if they take out EAX superhearing from the game, since I think then you may start to see some of the problem I'm pointing out a bit better. Right now, we're almost playing two different games, because you get advance warning from frags, snipes and so forth that I don't get.
QuoteThe uzi has plenty of glaring strengths, mainly through it's insane full-auto capabilities paired with its pinpoint accuracy. The uzi is plenty effective at close and medium range, and healthpacks aren't always just around the corner.
I'd hardly call the uzi pinpoint accuracy. That's a gross exaggeration. I mean try shooting it across pirates or something, you will only graze the spy for minor damage even if the crosshair is right on his body and he's hardly moving.
QuoteOr bind flashbang to quick use 1 and press left click. Gee, that was difficult.
Can't you just turn on MT while in zoom?
Quote
Can you disable the shotty from shooting through the use of two different gadgets? Didn't think so.
No, but you can disable the shotty by just being farther away than a few meters.
Quote
I would go so far as to say that if funny punches weren't in the game, a rifle user would be a sitting duck against a competent aggro team. This is another reason I'd rather have one, well-rounded weapon like the PT rifle -- there is no way to know how your opponents are going to play before the game starts. Guess wrong, and you're fucked.
Yeah, possibly. I guess I don't really aggro enough (it's never been my style), so I'm not used to just going straight up aggro on someone. But the fact that aggro doesn't completely dominate rifle users generally leads me to believe that a rifle user can compensate for the weakness against aggro at close range.
It's also why I can sort of agree with a well-rounded weapon, but I don't feel it should be the PT rifle, I feel it should be the uzi. That's the very definition of a rounded weapon. Then I feel it'd be better to throw on attachments to it (in the form of gadgets) for specialized uses.
But that's a moot point since it's already been stated that PS will have 3 weapons.
The question is how to balance them.
As you said, it's probably not a good idea to have over-specialized weapons. Which probably means we should move the weapons closer to 3 general purpose weapons.
Likely this means making the shotgun better at medium range, nerfing the rifle sniping ability a bit, but making its full-auto better. Possibly there may be some slight tweaks to the uzi.
One thing I felt would be kind of interesting is to make it so the uzi shots lose damage over distance more so than the rifle. Keeping the rifle as a better long range weapon, even on autofire.
The difficult balance is actually at close range, making the rifle weak against aggro but not too weak. The thing is that you can afford to have an uzi that can't snipe, and you're not screwed, but if you can't stop an aggro team, then that weapon is pretty much useless.
Though before extensive balance changes it's probably better off just to see how the game plays with less lag, no superhearing, fixed funny punching and so forth.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 02, 2008, 04:39:52 AM
Except that, for the third time, there is a delay between pressing the sniper button and being able to fire the gun. And going into scope makes a "click" noise that the spies can hear quite clearly. In other words, you can react to the rifle before the other person even fires a shot. It's not that difficult.
In all my years of playing CT on xbox, I haven't heard that noise that much. Except at close range, and sniping isn't that common at close range. Must be an EAX sound.
QuoteIt'll be interesting if they take out EAX superhearing from the game, since I think then you may start to see some of the problem I'm pointing out a bit better. Right now, we're almost playing two different games, because you get advance warning from frags, snipes and so forth that I don't get.
The game is going to be on the PC, which means people are going to have sound cards.
The question is, which sounds are supposed to be there, and which aren't?
QuoteI'd hardly call the uzi pinpoint accuracy. That's a gross exaggeration. I mean try shooting it across pirates or something, you will only graze the spy for minor damage even if the crosshair is right on his body and he's hardly moving.
It has pinpoint accuracy. The reason you don't do much damage is because...
QuoteOne thing I felt would be kind of interesting is to make it so the uzi shots lose damage over distance more so than the rifle. Keeping the rifle as a better long range weapon, even on autofire.
This is already true in CT.
QuoteCan't you just turn on MT while in zoom?
Doesn't matter. Flashbangs still take you out of snipe mode, and the time to zoom out---> zoom in and re-aim is enough time for the spy to either get away or shock the merc. No offense, but between these last 3 statements, it's difficult to have a discussion about weapon balance when you don't even know the game mechanics.
QuoteNo, but you can disable the shotty by just being farther away than a few meters.
Which is a poor weapon design for this type of gameplay. The fact that the shotgun doesn't hit anything beyond X distance says nothing about whether the rifle is overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. The point I was making was simply that the rifle's most valuable asset, the scope, can be disabled through use of the spy's gadgets. This, along with its low ROF, is what balances out the fact that it does the same damage from anywhere on the map when zoomed. On top of that, this dynamic is missing from the other weapons, which makes them much less interesting to use and play against.
QuoteIt's also why I can sort of agree with a well-rounded weapon, but I don't feel it should be the PT rifle, I feel it should be the uzi. That's the very definition of a rounded weapon.
But the uzi is a specialty weapon. It specializes in full-auto, and can rape people at close and medium range.
QuoteLikely this means making the shotgun better at medium range, nerfing the rifle sniping ability a bit, but making its full-auto better. Possibly there may be some slight tweaks to the uzi.
If you do this, then the uzi and rifle start to overlap, and we're back to consolidating the amount of weapons the merc can have.
The sniper rifle has that click sound and an animation of the merc bringing the rifle up to his face.
If you get caught off guard with a shot to the face, then it's your own fault.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 02, 2008, 08:50:25 AM
The sniper rifle has that click sound and an animation of the merc bringing the rifle up to his face.
If you get caught off guard with a shot to the face, then it's your own fault.
QFT
Everything Spekkio is saying here is really....accurate. Invisible, you have your points too, but Spekkio's advance is dead on. I really have nothing further to add.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 02, 2008, 07:22:20 AM
Doesn't matter. Flashbangs still take you out of snipe mode, and the time to zoom out---> zoom in and re-aim is enough time for the spy to either get away or shock the merc. No offense, but between these last 3 statements, it's difficult to have a discussion about weapon balance when you don't even know the game mechanics.
This I didn't know.
I never really use flash, since I don't aggro, so I'm not too familiar with what they do, aside from when they're used on me. And I don't often snipe so I was unaware they worked regardless of having MT on or not.
But anyway, we can argue about what we feel is "cheap", and probably not get anywhere as far as this discussion is concerned.
The real question is: what are we going to do about it?
The shotgun obviously needs some kind of fix (at least we can agree on that).
QuoteIf you do this, then the uzi and rifle start to overlap, and we're back to consolidating the amount of weapons the merc can have.
This is true, but we apparently need some overlap if you can only carry one weapon.
If you want weapon choice to reflect playstyle.
One weapon + attachments: You've got one all around weapon, good at medium range. And you throw on a shotgun attachment or scope on it to improve its effectiveness at either close or long range. The attachments provide enough new mechanics that they feel like different guns.
Multiple Weapons: The weapons are highly specialized, but you can either carry more than one (perhaps extra weapons are gadgets) or you can swap out your gun at an ammo box. In any case, you're going to want the proper gun for the proper job. Sniping is more powerful, but the rifle is weaker at close range than it is now. The shotgun remains the uber specialized thing it was and the uzi probably loses a little bit as far as long range combat goes.
Similar guns: You've got 3 guns with a specialty, but the roles aren't writ in stone. Every gun is built for general purpose use, only some guns are better at certain tasks than others, but the differences aren't extreme. This would be more similar to something like rainbow 6, where you don't see huge mechanical differences between taking an MP5 or taking an M-16. They feel similar with only slight differences that differentiate them.
Really, it's probably got to be one of those choices if we're going to balance things out.
I'd prefer the similar guns choice then. So far we've got the Assault Rifle (the MTAR). Which is good for medium to long range combat. The MP5 or the p90 would be the best choices for the uzi replacement, good for close to medium range combat. As for close range only weapon, a desert eagle would be tight ;D Even though it's not totally the mercenary style and there wouldn't be any room for a launcher. The only close range combat weapon I can think of that would work is a shotgun, even though it isn't too similar in looks to the other guns.
My preferences:
Assault Rifle - MTAR
Uzi - P90 or MP5
Shotgun - See picture below, I have no idea what it is but it looks like an awesome shotgun to have in this game
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.turbosquid.com%2FPreview%2FContent_on_5_19_2006_21_54_52%2FSide.jpgfebf0716-3320-4b6d-b5e5-494af7ef6eacLarge.jpg&hash=d077173cc79ffcff24dd4931aab5298e4f8f2214)
nay of swapping guns at ammo box. nay to multiple weapons.
Don't you think the grenade launcher takes the place of "One weapon + attachments"? Really, it could take that shotty add-on's slot.
Rifle does not have to be touched.
I actually prefer shotty on maps that force close encounters with spies. Of all weapons, the player must compromise the most when choosing shotty.
I do deny any advantage with lag. ALL weapons suck on high ping, and its because spies are not physically where you see them even when you KNOW the bullets should hit, they do not.
I dont know if this was explained, but when spies get hit by bullets they go through an animation that prevents them from doing anything else. This is the "uzi lag" everyone complains about.
folks, listen to spekkio. the pt rifle was perfect, a one weapon system actually offers more depth. i don't get why the devs are so fixed on a 3 weapon system when there are so much strong arguments for the pt rifle. plz overthink this, in my eyes it's total bullshit to try to balance 3 weapons when 1 weapon does the job in a way better way for gameplay dynamics and balance. heck, there's mr.mic and seefoo on the devcrew, what's their opinion on this??
I thought spekkio had changed his position. He did talk a lot about how to change the guns instead of getting rid of them in his long post.
i think he'd still prefer a one weapon solution eg the pt rifle, but has accomodated to the opinion of the majority. i still wonder what mr.mic and seefoo think about this topic...
Quote from: Overstatement on January 02, 2008, 04:17:39 PM
I thought spekkio had changed his position. He did talk a lot about how to change the guns instead of getting rid of them in his long post.
I still think a 1-weapon system would be best; however, I have given up trying to push for it since I am in the minority here.
If people want multiple weapons, then it's better to focus on how to make them work rather than kick and bitch that I want just 1 all-around weapon.
QuoteInsert Quote
I actually prefer shotty on maps that force close encounters with spies. Of all weapons, the player must compromise the most when choosing shotty.
I do deny any advantage with lag. ALL weapons suck on high ping, and its because spies are not physically where you see them even when you KNOW the bullets should hit, they do not.
I dont know if this was explained, but when spies get hit by bullets they go through an animation that prevents them from doing anything else. This is the "uzi lag" everyone complains about.
The shotgun has its place, but I still think it needs a re-work. For starters, the bullet spread NEVER hits the center of the crosshair. This is why the shotgun performs better in lag when someone has good aim -- by the time your bullets hit the spy, he has moved to the offset of your crosshair, thus resulting in him getting hit with the blast.
The second thing wrong with it is the bullet spread is completely random. One shot may have the bulk of the blast at the lower-left, while the next has it in the upper-right.
Third, a manifestation of point two is that you will randomly insta-gib a spy, and from quite a long range, too.
I propose that the spread of the shotgun become "normalized." That is, a certain % of the pellets will always hit around the center of the crosshair. The pellets toward the outer limits of the radius can be a little more random to mimic bullet spread of the other weapons. This would also allow mercs to shoot out snares/bullets, and hit spies off of objectives (albeit doing little to no damage). The shotgun should also never insta-gib a spy.
Additionally, Kebab, here's a question for you: if the tazer were actually useful, would you still be taking the shotgun, or would you take the tazer and another weapon that allows you more punch at longer range when you need it?
i don't think we can tell yet that we are in the minority without a poll on sclamers. can you start one, spekkio? (i'd do it myself but i can't express myself that well in english and you are way more accepted)
call me arrogant, but i also think we shouldn't count the votes of newbs for such an important decision.
Quote from: Gawain on January 02, 2008, 02:54:08 PM
folks, listen to spekkio. the pt rifle was perfect, a one weapon system actually offers more depth.
More balance maybe, but not more depth. Depth is all about different options.
How do you counter the PT rifle or any weapon that's good at any range?
Short answer: you don't.
There's really no tactical depth there. At all.
Sure you can counter it because the spy's gadgets are designed around being able to do so.
Ubi increased the weaponry in CT, but they never bothered to fully integrate their mechanics with the ways in which spies will use their equipment. Only the rifle offers that counter mechanic, and therefore depth.
As far as more weapon choices adding depth: it really doesn't. When you're actually playing the game, you only have 1 weapon.
you could argue that the combination of different weapons adds depth, but that's it. i can't get why people think snap-headshots are a problem or that you can't play well with rifle without uba-sniping skills. if we want to c**** the gameplay of ct than why don't we go for a one weapon system as most good players take rifle 90% of the time anyways? just implement a tazer that's worth a slot and slightely increase the rifle's automatic capabilities and we have the perfect weapon for this game.
Mmmkay, I suggested the PT ROF and I didn't see anyone really like the sound of that.
Okay, let's talk about burst. We haven't really decided on that yet as a community. In my opinion, there are two things you could do with this. Make the bullets a little more accurate than automatic, or a little higher damage than automatic. Or, just remove it altogether. Because right now, there's no point to it.
What do you think?
Quote from: Spekkio on January 02, 2008, 06:29:22 PM
Sure you can counter it because the spy's gadgets are designed around being able to do so.
Ubi increased the weaponry in CT, but they never bothered to fully integrate their mechanics with the ways in which spies will use their equipment. Only the rifle offers that counter mechanic, and therefore depth.
What is the big counter scheme? The fact that flashbangs take you out of snipe mode? I mean, that's all I really hear.
Chaff works to prevent sniping, but it's kind of pointless because you've got to get the merc inside the chaff radius. So that means you've basically go to SS him first and then fire a chaff, but by that time you might as well just run instead of using the chaff.
The flash thing is basically just a counter for aggro spies, because aggroers are about the only ones who take flash. Everyone else is pretty much going smoke/chaff. Because smoke is all around useful and chaff is necessary if you want to bypass various well placed mines and defenses.
Quote
As far as more weapon choices adding depth: it really doesn't. When you're actually playing the game, you only have 1 weapon.
The depth added is the spy's reaction to said weapons. You see a merc with a shotgun, you want to stay away, you see a merc with a rifle, you probably want to aggro him and have to remember to be on your guard against sniping.
The added depth is dealing with each weapon's capabilities and adapting.
Further, it reduces your ability to fine tune against a team's strengths. For instance, against an aggro team, it can help you to take shotgun or uzi. Against a stealthy spy, you probably want the rifle. It also creates depth as far as where to position yourself. A team of uzi mercs is going to have a vastly different positioning than a team of sniper mercs. There are somethings you just can't do with the uzi that you can do with a rifle.
Having 1 weapon that does it all actually reduces the depth of the game. It's like Double Agent. Every merc had frags, drones and a rifle. So you didn't need to use varied tactics against different mercs, because every merc played using the same mechanics. Now I realize that in DA, sniping was absolutely essential for every merc to have, because the spies generally hacked things from some obscure spot. In CT, that's just not true, and I don't think the game benefits by having every merc be a sniper all the time.
You actually gain more depth by having mercs with varied abilities.
That's the main reason I suggest actually making scope a gadget under a 1 weapon system. That way, some mercs snipe and some don't, and that actually adds more depth to your tactics.
More balanced choices always means more depth. I mean, it's just like comparing PT to CT. PT had one weapon, effectively automatic gadgets (the only real choice was spybullet versus snares). CT spread the weapons out to multiple guns and made the gadgets more balanced, flash became worth taking, heartbeat was added, as well as merc gadgets that people cared about beyond mines, taser, frags, traps. A few things were unnecessary, like nerfing the tazer. But for the most part, CT improved the depth of the game.
Hopefully PS will continue with the next step forward, instead of a step back like Double Agent.
Quote from: Gawain on January 02, 2008, 07:35:57 PM
you could argue that the combination of different weapons adds depth, but that's it. i can't get why people think snap-headshots are a problem or that you can't play well with rifle without uba-sniping skills. if we want to c**** the gameplay of ct than why don't we go for a one weapon system as most good players take rifle 90% of the time anyways? just implement a tazer that's worth a slot and slightely increase the rifle's automatic capabilities and we have the perfect weapon for this game.
Now that I think about it .. you're right - a one weapon system would be the best solution. Noone ever complained about the PT rifle in the first place, and snap-shots are not that much of a problem, because there certainly won't be too much Mr.Mics.
QuoteThe flash thing is basically just a counter for aggro spies, because aggroers are about the only ones who take flash. Everyone else is pretty much going smoke/chaff.
Wtf are you talking about? Flashbangs are plenty useful in a stealth capacity for getting away when you get caught, and many times moreso than smoke grenades.
Yeah, I agree with Spekkio. I am a stealth player, most of the time, and I use flashbangs/chaff every time I go out. Sometimes Smokes replace them but most of the time, I'd rather have flash. Mainly for getting away and escaping.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 02, 2008, 09:33:56 PM
QuoteThe flash thing is basically just a counter for aggro spies, because aggroers are about the only ones who take flash. Everyone else is pretty much going smoke/chaff.
Wtf are you talking about? Flashbangs are plenty useful in a stealth capacity for getting away when you get caught, and many times moreso than smoke grenades.
Honestly I never used flash. About the only way they're useful are when you shock the merc first to take him out of MT, and if you're going through that much trouble, you might as well go the extra mile and triple nade him. Against an MT whore, flash is about useless. I pretty much laugh when most of the people try to flash me to cover their escape, becuase I'm in MT and it does nothing.
Smokes are nice because they're fire and forget for the most part. Throw down a smoke then run, and it slows the merc down. My goal for evading the merc is to slow him down a bit and avoid getting in a twitch duel. For flashes to really work well, you're forced to get into a twitch duel. Otherwise MT just nullifies whatever your flashes do.
Don't assume something isn't useful because you elect not to use it. There are a lot of players on PC who use flashbangs, and not all of them do so in a purely aggro capacity. They are just as versatile as smoke grenades.
QuoteWhat is the big counter scheme? The fact that flashbangs take you out of snipe mode? I mean, that's all I really hear.
Then you're just choosing to ignore things so that you can continue in your nerf sniping crusade.
Smoke grenades counter sniping because a merc isn't going to want to waste his mask sitting in a smoke cloud. Chaff counters sniping because you can't go into it while in the chaff radius. Flashbangs counter sniping because they take him out of sniper mode no matter what, and I even proposed that the effect needs to be more pronounced when re-sniping. Headshots disable the ability to snipe entirely, but they don't stop the merc from firing their other weaponry just as quickly. Aggro counters snipers because the full-auto of the rifle is sub-par.
Whether you would prefer to shock --> smoke/chaff or run really depends on the merc's FOV if you run away without disabling him first.
You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that you can pre-plan for a sniper to come around the corner. If you know a merc is going to pop around and snipe from a particular position, you can throw a chaff there before hacking. Alternatively, you can use spy bullets to escape before he even gets there.
Seriously, there are plenty of counters to the rifle's scope function, and your posts are nothing but a whine against something that you alone have difficulty countering. No one else here is agreeing with you in regards to the scope being this omgwtf imba function that keeps nuking spies from anywhere on the map.
In terms of depth, there are no direct counters to the other weapons, in that there is no effective way to stop them from using a part of of their functionality.
Agreed. Flashbangs are great for covering your escape, smokes just aren't. They can easily flip on gas mask and continue to chase me. Merc's can't do anything about flashes unless they happen to turn on MT right before it hits. Usually, flashes are thrown unexpectedly. Meaning you are chasing a spy, and he flashes you before you even know it. Then, if the flash hit him directly, you are free to escape and be unseen while doing it.
You can use it to cover your movement. For example, you flash the merc and move from cover to cover. He doesn't know where you are at. You could flash him and move anywhere, and he wouldn't know if you moved quickly - quickly meaning you moved within the time it takes for the flash effect to wear off.
amen to everything spekkio posted.
papaskull, once again you talk bs. a good merc will be in mt (or emf+laser) when he chases you, not in normal vision. in most escape situations, SS the merc is the best choice anyways.
Why would a merc flip on laser or EMF? If the merc can already see the spy, clear as fucking day, then why would he need to turn on a vision. That's fucking stupid, you talk bs.
SS the merc and flashing him is the best choice.
dude, your so fu***** stu*** that it hurts me physically. mt and laser are good tools to keep track of a moving target, especially when it's spamming flash/smoke.
Switching to MT or EMF+laser is also what I do. Reasons: not affected by flash/smoke. Can see through smoke with either the MT box or the laser box or sometimes the EMF Ghost/Shadow.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 12:30:07 AM
Why would a merc flip on laser or EMF? If the merc can already see the spy, clear as fucking day, then why would he need to turn on a vision. That's fucking stupid, you talk bs.
SS the merc and flashing him is the best choice.
I would turn on laser and/or use EMF so the spy didn't have an affect with the flash. I would turn on a vision so I didn't get blinded. Your common sense in the game is misconstrued.
Yeah, especialyl the moment I see a spy drop a flashbang, that basically means I'm going into MT whore mode. Generally in those games, I'm always in either MT or EMF, and just toggle back and forth.
I generally don't like EMF against smoke, because I can't tell if I'm inside the smoke or not, and I sometimes get KOed that way.
But really flash tends to require a SS shot to take the merc out of MT against any decent player. It's one reason I really don't like using flash. A lot of times I'll try to get the SS shot and get killed. I just have a better success rate running away under cover of smoke.
if you get regularly killed whyle trying to ss the merc you did/do something wrong...
Quote from: Gawain on January 03, 2008, 07:35:02 PM
if you get regularly killed whyle trying to ss the merc you did/do something wrong...
Not if you are up close and personal. The merc can always still charge be4 he gets hit and knock the spy out.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 12:30:07 AM
Why would a merc flip on laser or EMF? If the merc can already see the spy, clear as fucking day, then why would he need to turn on a vision. That's fucking stupid, you talk bs.
SS the merc and flashing him is the best choice.
You have the tendency to call people on "bullshit" yet time and time again you give clear examples that you don't understand CT SvM at its core.
Understand it? Wow. THE POINT IS THIS GAWAIN: If I can see someone clear as day, and I don't suspect they will try to flash me, why would I turn on EMF or even MT? Why? There isn't a point. As a spy you'd try to hit them with the flashbang BEFORE they have a chance to turn it on, then you escape. Flashbangs are good gadgets for covering your movement, and for escaping. Period. Especially with chaff nades or ss to the head. I am sure you can figure out why, if not, it's because they disable visions.
If someone is searching for you in the dark, they aren't going to have EMF on the whole time. Flash them when they are scanning the area with their flashlight. If you hit them directly, they aren't going to have a chance to flip on EMF or MT. He would be blinded for a second, giving you just enough time to get out of the area he was searching.
Why would a merc turn on EMF? Even with laser? You still have to scan the area with the laser, and if you don't detect anything, the spy is going to get away easily.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
If someone is searching for you in the dark, they aren't going to have EMF on the whole time.
I do, because i get crashed every time i want to put flashlight on.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Why would a merc turn on EMF? Even with laser? You still have to scan the area with the laser, and if you don't detect anything, the spy is going to get away easily.
Ah ok, I get it, Papa Skull is someone from Ubi that wants to destroy Project Stealth. Ok, it makes sense now, I thought you were just completely retarded. :D Now, all you gotta do is either admit one of two things;
1. You're retarded when it comes to SvM.
2. You work for Ubi and secretly want to destroy the game by proposing horrible ideas.
3. All of the above.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Understand it? Wow. THE POINT IS THIS GAWAIN: If I can see someone clear as day, and I don't suspect they will try to flash me, why would I turn on EMF or even MT? Why? There isn't a point. As a spy you'd try to hit them with the flashbang BEFORE they have a chance to turn it on, then you escape. Flashbangs are good gadgets for covering your movement, and for escaping. Period. Especially with chaff nades or ss to the head. I am sure you can figure out why, if not, it's because they disable visions.
If someone is searching for you in the dark, they aren't going to have EMF on the whole time. Flash them when they are scanning the area with their flashlight. If you hit them directly, they aren't going to have a chance to flip on EMF or MT. He would be blinded for a second, giving you just enough time to get out of the area he was searching.
Why would a merc turn on EMF? Even with laser? You still have to scan the area with the laser, and if you don't detect anything, the spy is going to get away easily.
Because a lot of people don't want to die like you would in these situations. Don't flip on EMF or use laser if you don't want to. Most of the people would have MT on in a dark area, rather than EMF. Not everyone EMF whores as much as they MT whore, but its really based on map layout.
+ everything Vega said.
Quote from: Gawain on January 03, 2008, 07:35:02 PM
if you get regularly killed whyle trying to ss the merc you did/do something wrong...
At close range you can get charged, and at long range, the grainy aiming of the SS means that sometimes you just outright miss shots for stupid reasons. I mean, I dunno about you guys, but I have trouble hitting things sometimes with the SS. Sometimes you'll try to hit a mine on a wall, and you just can't. The red dot is right on it, but it hits something else, because the aiming is fucked up.
Sometimes it seems that lag makes the ss not register server side if that is what you mean.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 03, 2008, 09:14:59 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Understand it? Wow. THE POINT IS THIS GAWAIN: If I can see someone clear as day, and I don't suspect they will try to flash me, why would I turn on EMF or even MT? Why? There isn't a point. As a spy you'd try to hit them with the flashbang BEFORE they have a chance to turn it on, then you escape. Flashbangs are good gadgets for covering your movement, and for escaping. Period. Especially with chaff nades or ss to the head. I am sure you can figure out why, if not, it's because they disable visions.
If someone is searching for you in the dark, they aren't going to have EMF on the whole time. Flash them when they are scanning the area with their flashlight. If you hit them directly, they aren't going to have a chance to flip on EMF or MT. He would be blinded for a second, giving you just enough time to get out of the area he was searching.
Why would a merc turn on EMF? Even with laser? You still have to scan the area with the laser, and if you don't detect anything, the spy is going to get away easily.
Because a lot of people don't want to die like you would in these situations. Don't flip on EMF or use laser if you don't want to. Most of the people would have MT on in a dark area, rather than EMF. Not everyone EMF whores as much as they MT whore, but its really based on map layout.
+ everything Vega said.
STILL NO ONE has answered why the fuck you would turn on EMF and laser if you can see the guy clear as day. Even if you can't see him clear as day, if you don't put the laser on the guy, he escapes easily because you can't see him on EMF. And how would you die?
If the guy is trying to escape he is obviously going to be running, which creates noise, and I would know which direction he is going. With laser on, I wouldn't even be able to fucking hear him because the sound reticule is replaced. My point is that EMF + laser isn't good for tracking an escaping spy. How would someone using regular vision chasing a spy die in a situation like that? Lame assumption.
Example: You are at Polar Base. You come from hangar to stop the spy from hacking the container. He sees you coming and you flip on EMF and laser. At that point he is trying to escape. You try to chase him down, but you can't see him because he has no visions on. You try to scan the area with laser but you can't because of all the clutter in that area. He runs toward the generators, but you don't know that because your sound reticule was replaced by the laser. So, you search the area near the tower. And what has the spy done? He has escaped! Hey, imagine that!
There is just one example of how it is a bad combination for tracking escaping spies.
And yeah, it is sometimes difficult to get the ss shot to even register that you hit something at long range. Maybe that's just for balance so you can't snipe a security laser from across the map, or a mine. But I'm not sure.
Lame, lol.
You can always switch to reticule again in less than 1/4 of a second. Also note that the spy would most likely ss you before he starts escaping.
Another thing is that if you stay on hangar/ container, your mate is on generators (reminds me of that aqua/ greek(pir?) tactic you suggested before).
Now, even if the spy manages to escape, you have stopped him from hacking, and that's what you want. You still have to place the mines he defused and have to stay at your guarding spot.
And remember, there ALWAYS is a mate for the spy you are chasing (chase=fail for merc).
You run after the spy that goes to generators, your hangar/ container is being hacked.
/my 5 cents
EDIT:
Also, you can put on visions without putting laser on, even if it makes your aim lame, you still know where the spy is.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
If I can see someone clear as day, and I don't suspect they will try to flash me, why would I turn on EMF or even MT?
lol
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Flashbangs are good gadgets for covering your movement, and for escaping. Period.
lol
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
If someone is searching for you in the dark, they aren't going to have EMF on the whole time.
lol
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Why would a merc turn on EMF? Even with laser? You still have to scan the area with the laser, and if you don't detect anything, the spy is going to get away easily.
lol
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 03, 2008, 09:51:23 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
If I can see someone clear as day, and I don't suspect they will try to flash me, why would I turn on EMF or even MT?
lol
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Flashbangs are good gadgets for covering your movement, and for escaping. Period.
lol
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
If someone is searching for you in the dark, they aren't going to have EMF on the whole time.
lol
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Why would a merc turn on EMF? Even with laser? You still have to scan the area with the laser, and if you don't detect anything, the spy is going to get away easily.
lol
lol
ähm ... lol ;D
I agree with Mic. Sry Papa. Always expect the Spy to drop flash.
wtf? The god damn argument was about chasing a spy with EMF/Laser on. I gave a fucking example, but, hey you all ignored it. And that's cool, if you don't want to have a real conversation, because you aren't entirely listening to my argument. According to all of your logic, smoke grenades and flash grenades are completely useless because everyone suspects them to be thrown 100% of the time. If that's so, then how come it is common to be blinded by flash grenades? The reason why is that it happens so fast even if you were expecting it. Here was my example you all ignored:
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 03, 2008, 09:38:35 PM
Example: You are at Polar Base. You come from hangar to stop the spy from hacking the container. He sees you coming and you flip on EMF and laser. At that point he is trying to escape. You try to chase him down, but you can't see him because he has no visions on. You try to scan the area with laser but you can't because of all the clutter in that area. He runs toward the generators, but you don't know that because your sound reticule was replaced by the laser. So, you search the area near the tower. And what has the spy done? He has escaped! Hey, imagine that!
It was about EMF + laser combo. And THAT is what can happen if you use only that, there you go! It wasn't about stopping the spy from hacking, it was about chasing down the escaping spy.
It's next to impossible to flip on a vision right when you see a grenade in your face.
Flash Chaff is an even better combo because, like I said before but you all seemed to ignore that also, the merc can't use visions when hit by the chaff. Making flash bangs even easier to blind someone with. And hey, that makes it great for escaping.
My Loadout: Flash, Chaff, Sticky Cams, Heartbeat - It's a loadout designed for my kind of stealth and play, on most maps.
SS + Chaff + Flash = Blinded merc and an easier escape
At that point, the merc IS blinded, therefore, flashes make for an EXCEPTIONAL means of escaping. Especially when coupled with chaff.
usually mt is the best vision for chasing as the box stays on the target even around corners and you are immune to flash (+if you switch on mt after getting ss+flashed you often see the direction the spy headed). but usually people also spam smoke which creates a non-transparent black cloud in mt so it's usually a good idea to use the laser for the box tracking and emf for navigation (+ghosting/normal glowing as spies are likely to use tv in smoke or when there could be mines).
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 12:31:58 AM
usually mt is the best vision for chasing as the box stays on the target even around corners
imo its a thing to change. The box stays for too long which makes no sense and is unfair.
That's why I gave my example though. There is an example where EMF + Laser can pretty much screw you over. To get the box tracking you need to be able to get the laser on him. In a cluttered area, or a vertical area, it's not the easiest thing to do. When you get your laser out, you can't hear him and he can turn around towards you for all you know, especially if you have EMF on and he doesn't have a vision on. You could get lucky and possibly see his ghost, true. But in a situation like the one I've said, he'll more than likely get away.
To be honest, EMF + Laser is actually a pretty good combination for locating stationary spies. The second they turn on a vision/use the ss you see them. You could see the ghost. And you can just scan the area with a laser until you box him. But as for escaping spies, you don't really need to locate them. Rather you need to be able to keep following him and figure out where he is going and keep him from getting there.
I know MT is the best choice for tracking. But, not if I can see the guy so obviously. And if he is running the other way, I can always switch to a vision by the time he turns around to ss/spam me with nades. MT wasn't what this little disagreement was about.
Quote from: neth on January 04, 2008, 12:41:55 AM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 12:31:58 AM
usually mt is the best vision for chasing as the box stays on the target even around corners
imo its a thing to change. The box stays for too long which makes no sense and is unfair.
I agree to this. It's not a huge change, but it could make a difference. My main problem with MT is it's ability to pick up things behind the merc and it's ability to pick up slowly moving spies, even if they had camo on.
Quote from: neth on January 04, 2008, 12:41:55 AM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 12:31:58 AM
usually mt is the best vision for chasing as the box stays on the target even around corners
imo its a thing to change. The box stays for too long which makes no sense and is unfair.
you speak total bullshit. the only thing wrong with mt is it's ability to detect stationary spies (especially in the dark) and that there is no slow climb move. i'm quite confident mr.mic finds the right balance.
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 12:58:54 AM
Quote from: neth on January 04, 2008, 12:41:55 AM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 12:31:58 AM
usually mt is the best vision for chasing as the box stays on the target even around corners
imo its a thing to change. The box stays for too long which makes no sense and is unfair.
you speak total bullshit. the only thing wrong with mt is it's ability to detect stationary spies (especially in the dark) and that there is no slow climb move. i'm quite confident mr.mic finds the right balance.
Don't forget the 360Ã,° radius, which should be lowered to the field of view only.
It isn't going to totally matter if the box stays for that extra second. I'm sure people will adapt to it and forget completely about it anyways. It should only detect moving objects in the field of view, it should only detect medium to fast movement. Meaning that it wouldn't detect anyone slow crouching. There also needs to be a slow climb, like said before. And it's semi night vision capabilities need to be taken out. Wow. That's a lot of nerfing. But, if that's what is going to make it a balanced vision then nerf away lol
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 12:58:54 AM
you speak total bullshit.
haha.
-
Now when the spy runs behind the corner you are often able to tell if he is going to stop there and try to neck you or know his very next moves. It's because the box stays for a 0,5 sec too long. If it disappeared in the moment when you lose eye contact with the spy it would make more sense. Besides, there is no logical reason to be as it is now.
yes, there is: it's good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities. this means taking away mt's ability to detect static spies (and probably spies with camo) and the emf ghosting, but definitely not the 360Ã,° detection or the box timer. i even suggest removing the detection delay.
i really don't feel like discussing this topic again, especially not with noobs like you. i don't care if you call me a flamer or something else, but you suck at this game and are unable to discuss about game mechanics reasonably.
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
yes, there is: it's good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities. this means taking away mt's ability to detect static spies (and probably spies with camo) and the emf ghosting, but definitely not the 360Ã,° detection or the box timer. i even suggest removing the detection delay.
I don't really care about the box timer, but it doesn't make sense to me, that spies can get detected by MT when they're climbing up a box at the other side of the map and the merc
doesn't even look there. But yeah .. that makes me a noob .. right.
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
i really don't feel like discussing this topic again, especially not with noobs like you. i don't care if you call me a flamer or something else, but you suck at this game and are unable to discuss about game mechanics reasonably.
yeah .. now NoX-Rambo shows up in Gawain .. I always knew what kind of person you where and I stated it before. You were warned so many times now and still we get to see posts like this. I'm sick of it.
Someone ban that guy!
Make a poll.
how about banning people like papaskull? unlike him, i know what i'm talking about. if noobs like him don't spam bs, i don't have to act like that, it's as simple as that.
i always considered sclamers and the ps forum as a free platform though ...
on the mt topic: maps like deftech are bad map design, it's not mt's fault. i also spoke about adding a slow climb move. but what does this have to do with "the assault rifle discussion" anyways???
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 03:56:25 PM
on the mt topic: maps like deftech are bad map design, it's not mt's fault. i also spoke about adding a slow climb move. but what does this have to do with "the assault rifle discussion" anyways???
Deftech is not badly design it works great in story as in Dm... but ur right there should be a slow climb move
except the fact that it's totally unbalanced...
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 07:53:29 PM
except the fact that it's totally unbalanced...
agreed
Deftech is a fortress if you're not playing against total idiots.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 04, 2008, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 07:53:29 PM
except the fact that it's totally unbalanced...
agreed
Deftech is a fortress if you're not playing against total idiots.
I don't agree but there's no point of arguing on that
Quote from: Test-Subject on January 04, 2008, 08:29:09 PM
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 04, 2008, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 07:53:29 PM
except the fact that it's totally unbalanced...
agreed
Deftech is a fortress if you're not playing against total idiots.
I don't agree but there's no point of arguing on that
Because he's right?
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
yes, there is: it's good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities. this means taking away mt's ability to detect static spies (and probably spies with camo) and the emf ghosting, but definitely not the 360Ã,° detection or the box timer. i even suggest removing the detection delay.
i really don't feel like discussing this topic again, especially not with noobs like you. i don't care if you call me a flamer or something else, but you suck at this game and are unable to discuss about game mechanics reasonably.
You suggest to ban me when you'd like 360 detection for MT? Lol, wut? So, you want to be able to turn on MT and be able to not even look behind you, but you are still able to find people behind you. It shouldn't work like that. You should have to look at someone to find someone ffs, that's like common sense, not even knowledge of the game.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 04, 2008, 09:32:10 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
yes, there is: it's good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities. this means taking away mt's ability to detect static spies (and probably spies with camo) and the emf ghosting, but definitely not the 360Ã,° detection or the box timer. i even suggest removing the detection delay.
i really don't feel like discussing this topic again, especially not with noobs like you. i don't care if you call me a flamer or something else, but you suck at this game and are unable to discuss about game mechanics reasonably.
You suggest to ban me when you'd like 360 detection for MT? Lol, wut? So, you want to be able to turn on MT and be able to not even look behind you, but you are still able to find people behind you. It shouldn't work like that. You should have to look at someone to find someone ffs, that's like common sense, not even knowledge of the game.
Instead of explaining you have to type: "It's bs" and call him noob 3 times. Thats the way this kind of people communicates.
If MT is supposed to be specialized in hunting down spies, you don't need the 360 degrees vision - since you're looking towards whatever you're hunting down. Besides, didn't we have this discussion before??
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 04, 2008, 09:56:04 PM
If MT is supposed to be specialized in hunting down spies, you don't need the 360 degrees vision - since you're looking towards whatever you're hunting down. Besides, didn't we have this discussion before??
BINGO!! Right there! You are hunting the spies down with your eyes, not with your back. Whatever is behind you is for you to not know. Cyntrox has it right.
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 04, 2008, 09:56:04 PM
If MT is supposed to be specialized in hunting down spies, you don't need the 360 degrees vision - since you're looking towards whatever you're hunting down. Besides, didn't we have this discussion before??
+1
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 04, 2008, 08:03:31 PM
Deftech is a fortress if you're not playing against total idiots.
Yep, the only way you win deftech is being good with quick cams. Since the passages are so narrow, you usually cant even do straight aggro very effectively. Stealth, of course, is completely out of the question, thanks to all the static defenses that let the mercs know exactly where you are.
Deftech might be a half decent map if all the static defenses were removed and there was no warning at all for the non-objective hacks (except maybe the elevators).
Quote from: Gui Brazil on January 04, 2008, 08:40:40 PM
Quote from: Test-Subject on January 04, 2008, 08:29:09 PM
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 04, 2008, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 07:53:29 PM
except the fact that it's totally unbalanced...
agreed
Deftech is a fortress if you're not playing against total idiots.
I don't agree but there's no point of arguing on that
Because he's right?
No cuz it wont get us anywhere...
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 04, 2008, 11:01:16 PM
Deftech might be a half decent map if all the static defenses were removed and there was no warning at all for the non-objective hacks (except maybe the elevators).
Well if talking about stealth, the main problem is to get inside unnoticed, which is often close to impossible. But if we assume that you actually made it, there are exactly 4 elements of static defense which are completely unpassable without deactivating them. All of them are motion sensors. The rest of static defense can be bypassed.
If it was easier to get through an open area and some of static defense was relocated, this map would be a real fun to play.
Quote from: neth on January 04, 2008, 09:43:25 PM
Instead of explaining you have to type: "It's bs" and call him noob 3 times. Thats the way this kind of people communicates.
Excluding calling people noobs (Papa isn't really in the position to do so), Papa isn't any better really. Papa constantly calls "bs" on people when he, himself, has no idea. He holds onto ideas (which are usually only logical to him) even when multiple people are not in agreeance with him. This is evident with the "Thermal Vision" topic and the "Bodies Not Decaying" topic. Not only that, but if his idea isn't accepted, he's persistant to the extent of redundancy.
Papa, I'm not starting another flame war with you, but if it's going to come to banning people (the subject of Gawain), I'm going to give my input where I see fit -- regardless if it helps or hurts an individual.
No one should be banned here but the mannequin maker, tho its sometimes frustrating/funny when you spare your time explaining what you mean and then one guy comes and calls you noob and instead of saying more he just adds. "bs".
i post 10 times more meaningful stuff than a lot of other people, cmon ::)
the reason why i post bs/noob/etc instead of an explanation is because this topic has already been discussed and i'm too lazy to write big posts again.
just for you in short: the 360Ã,° detection is one of the unique features of mt, but not it's problem. don't fix what ain't broken. mt should be the vision you switch on whenever you suspect quick motion in aggro situations or for hunting spies on escape, definitely not the nightvision tool with almost no weaknesses it is now. probably normal post render quality and a slow-climb move would be sufficient to create balance, but i support going even further and totally remove the ability to detect static spies like mr.mic suggested.
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
(MT is) good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities.
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:17:45 AMmt should be the vision you switch on whenever you suspect quick motion in aggro situations
You're contradicting yourself.
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 05, 2008, 03:21:46 AM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
(MT is) good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities.
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:17:45 AMmt should be the vision you switch on whenever you suspect quick motion in aggro situations
You're contradicting yourself.
Both statements are equally true and not really a contradiction when taken in context.
Quote from: Vega on January 05, 2008, 12:39:24 AM
Quote from: neth on January 04, 2008, 09:43:25 PM
Instead of explaining you have to type: "It's bs" and call him noob 3 times. Thats the way this kind of people communicates.
Excluding calling people noobs (Papa isn't really in the position to do so), Papa isn't any better really. Papa constantly calls "bs" on people when he, himself, has no idea. He holds onto ideas (which are usually only logical to him) even when multiple people are not in agreeance with him. This is evident with the "Thermal Vision" topic and the "Bodies Not Decaying" topic. Not only that, but if his idea isn't accepted, he's persistant to the extent of redundancy.
Papa, I'm not starting another flame war with you, but if it's going to come to banning people (the subject of Gawain), I'm going to give my input where I see fit -- regardless if it helps or hurts an individual.
I've posted plenty of things. Many threads, many replies, whatever. Hell, YOU are in my thread right now, and it started off as productive and veered off somewhere. Wasn't completely my fault. Don't all the threads get hijacked nowadays? Most of my threads have been productive posts containing things that I think would help the gameplay. The problem is though, that new ideas aren't completely welcome because this is mostly a chrome finished version of CT with a few fixes. I've suggested new features, gadgets, and moves. I'm a pretty opinionated person, I'll admit that. But I want to reach a final conclusion every time I have a discussion. If it seems to me that I need to explain my suggestion a little more until people can see what I'm talking about, then I'll do that.
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:17:45 AM
just for you in short: the 360Ã,° detection is one of the unique features of mt, but not it's problem. don't fix what ain't broken. mt should be the vision you switch on whenever you suspect quick motion in aggro situations or for hunting spies on escape, definitely not the nightvision tool with almost no weaknesses it is now. probably normal post render quality and a slow-climb move would be sufficient to create balance, but i support going even further and totally remove the ability to detect static spies like mr.mic suggested.
It's unique sure. But so is it's ability to detect and movement regardless of speed, and that needs fixing. So does it's night vision capabilities, even though it's unique. I'll say the same about its 360 detection radius. It's retarded tbh. If you aren't looking toward the spy that is moving, why the hell should you be able to detect it? Does the merc have eyes in the back of his head? No, he doesn't, and he should never. If he turns his back he should be screwed. With MT on, he's not screwed. And that is a flaw.
I don't liek the 360 MT, but I would like to point out its not completly un-realistic, say there is a sensor on top of his helmet that detects motion it would dectect it in every direction the try to dispaly is on the HUD on the inside of the mercs visor. Again I'm NOT saying this because I like it, it's plausible and thats it. However I believe based on CT that the motion sensor is at the front of the helmet with the flashlight etc.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 05, 2008, 04:42:56 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 05, 2008, 03:21:46 AM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
(MT is) good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities.
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:17:45 AMmt should be the vision you switch on whenever you suspect quick motion in aggro situations
You're contradicting yourself.
Both statements are equally true and not really a contradiction when taken in context.
You're right, they're not completely opposing - but they are conflicting. He says it needs more specialization, then proceeds to state two different things the MT should do.
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 05, 2008, 05:35:04 AM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 05, 2008, 04:42:56 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 05, 2008, 03:21:46 AM
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:11:23 PM
(MT is) good for hunting down spies. the visions need a better specialization, not nerfing of their special abilities.
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:17:45 AMmt should be the vision you switch on whenever you suspect quick motion in aggro situations
You're contradicting yourself.
Both statements are equally true and not really a contradiction when taken in context.
You're right, they're not completely opposing - but they are conflicting. He says it needs more specialization, then proceeds to state two different things the MT should do.
Something that is specialized can do more then one thing. Look at surgens. ;)
blah blah blah you're all retarded you're all n00bs you're all calling bs; grow thicker skin and get over it.
Papa has a good point in that flashbangs are equally useful to getting away from mercs. Yes, a merc can try to MT whore your ass, but most people on the PC take the rifle. The fact that flashbangs counter the scope more than makes up for it, and also gives you time to shock the merc. However, if the merc has uzi or the shotgun and is pursuing me, I quickly find myself cursing for not taking smoke instead of flashbangs, particularly if it's the latter. This is because smoke is better in making the merc not want to chase you around, which is something he's not going to do with the scope anyway. This is yet another reason why I would rather have 1 weapon than 3.
However, I will take flashbangs for guarding an objective over smoke any day. The merc will have mask on, so smoke nades aren't really doing anything. Flash + chaff >>> smoke + chaff for disorienting a merc and stopping him from getting to your partner, and the fact that you shock him is pretty much a given in those situations.
On the other hand, papa, you are pretty dense if you think that the only reasons a merc would have a vision on was that he knows where the spies are. Good players cycle through their visions constantly to try to gain as much information as possible, and usually are not going to track you in "normal" vision. This is exacerbated by the fact that you can't snipe with the flashlight on in the PC version (a bug I'm sure Ubi never fixed, since it's an ability you can use in PC/XBox PT and XBox CT).
The "if you can't shock the merc before he shoots you" statement is pretty idiotic. Lag can screw up the auto-aim of the shocker, even if the merc isn't moving. The best is when it fails after an elbow. Go Ubi.
Invisible, the "grainy" effect is exacerbated by high mouse sensitivity. You can avoid it by either A) turning the sensitivity down, B ) using any multiple DPI buttons your mouse might have, or C) strafing for fine movement instead of moving the cursor to aim.
MT's 360-degree detection is at the very root of why it's overpowered. Despite popular belief, the night vision part of it is pretty inconsequential, since the merc needs to be looking in your direction to see you anyway. The problem is that you can't move quickly enough to get by the merc when he looks away from you thanks to the wonderful detector.
Unfortunately, if you nerf the 360 degree detector, you will probably give a huge boost to aggro spies because the merc will lose one of his most powerful weapons against it. On top of that, I would see no reason to even use MT if it only detected in my FOV except to guard me from flashbangs. Oh, a spy is moving in front of my face??? Dang, that's SO hard to notice that I need a vision dedicated to doing just that. Come on now.
Having said that, I really don't want this to turn into yet ANOTHER MT thread...
Deftech in PT = balanced. Deftech in CT = inpenetrable. SS+ rail jump + no mask = dead mercs on Deftech PT or cam walling them out of the buildings once you got in.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 05, 2008, 06:41:07 AM
blah blah blah you're all retarded you're all n00bs you're all calling bs; grow thicker skin and get over it.
lol no you are teh noob
Papa has a good point in that flashbangs are equally useful to getting away from mercs. Yes, a merc can try to MT whore your ass, but most people on the PC take the rifle. The fact that flashbangs counter the scope more than makes up for it, and also gives you time to shock the merc. However, if the merc has uzi or the shotgun and is pursuing me, I quickly find myself cursing for not taking smoke instead of flashbangs, particularly if it's the latter. This is because smoke is better in making the merc not want to chase you around, which is something he's not going to do with the scope anyway. This is yet another reason why I would rather have 1 weapon than 3.
I forgot to mention that also. It's even easier to snipe a mercenary in snipe mode because of his slow speed. Flash effect shouldn't be gone if you go back into snipe mode, as I think you suggested before.
However, I will take flashbangs for guarding an objective over smoke any day. The merc will have mask on, so smoke nades aren't really doing anything. Flash + chaff >>> smoke + chaff for disorienting a merc and stopping him from getting to your partner, and the fact that you shock him is pretty much a given in those situations.
That's what I was talkin about. Flash exceeds smoke by a longshot in that sense.
On the other hand, papa, you are pretty dense if you think that the only reasons a merc would have a vision on was that he knows where the spies are. Good players cycle through their visions constantly to try to gain as much information as possible, and usually are not going to track you in "normal" vision. This is exacerbated by the fact that you can't snipe with the flashlight on in the PC version (a bug I'm sure Ubi never fixed, since it's an ability you can use in PC/XBox PT and XBox CT).
Well, I never said that. I said that mercs have to switch to their flashlight when searching in the shadows because sometimes MT and EMF can't get the job done, even with ghosting. When the merc has the flashlight out, you flash him. Sniping with the flashlight isn't as useful as you'd think. Usually, you are going to want to snipe while hidden so you can wait for a better shot. Having a big light come from your head doesn't help to conceal your position very well now does it. :D
MT's 360-degree detection is at the very root of why it's overpowered. Despite popular belief, the night vision part of it is pretty inconsequential, since the merc needs to be looking in your direction to see you anyway. The problem is that you can't move quickly enough to get by the merc when he looks away from you thanks to the wonderful detector.
Unfortunately, if you nerf the 360 degree detector, you will probably give a huge boost to aggro spies because the merc will lose one of his most powerful weapons against it. On top of that, I would see no reason to even use MT if it only detected in my FOV except to guard me from flashbangs. Oh, a spy is moving in front of my face??? Dang, that's SO hard to notice that I need a vision dedicated to doing just that. Come on now.
Tbh, MT would still be useful against aggro attacks, even without 360 detection. This is because it helps you see through smoke and you are immuned to flash bangs. If you need a detector to tell you that there is a spy RUNNING behind you, then you must not even know about the sound reticule. The problem now is that it detects any movement behind you. Even STEALTHY spies attempting to slowly move while the merc has his back turned. And THAT is a big problem.
QuoteWell, I never said that. I said that mercs have to switch to their flashlight when searching in the shadows because sometimes MT and EMF can't get the job done, even with ghosting. When the merc has the flashlight out, you flash him. Sniping with the flashlight isn't as useful as you'd think. Usually, you are going to want to snipe while hidden so you can wait for a better shot. Having a big light come from your head doesn't help to conceal your position very well now does it.
No, but I'm not always looking at the same spot waiting for a spy to rear his ugly head. Sometimes I'm searching with the flashlight, see a spy, and zoom...but the flashlight turns off and now I can't aim. That happens very often for me.
It's also pretty likely the spy knows where I am anyway, and will hear the click of me going into snipe mode. Catching a spy off guard is difficult; catching a spy off guard from a sniper nest is even harder.
I suppose I could just MT whore more to bypass it, but yea.
QuoteEven STEALTHY spies attempting to slowly move while the merc has his back turned. And THAT is a big problem.
Something that always bothers me is how people automatically equate stealth with slow. To be honest, mercs tend to be very paranoid. They move around and turn their heads a lot. The window for you to sneak by them in an area with a bottleneck is pretty small. It can be extended with a little harassment from your partner, but you still don't have all the time in the world. Hence you have to move quickly AND quietly (shameless reference to my enhanced sound meter idea). If you spend 30 seconds out in the open because you are creeping in slow speed, you are going to get spotted -- and rightfully so.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 05, 2008, 07:26:08 AM
No, but I'm not always looking at the same spot waiting for a spy to rear his ugly head. Sometimes I'm searching with the flashlight, see a spy, and zoom...but the flashlight turns off and now I can't aim. That happens very often for me.
Wouldn't the spy move anyways if he sees a flashlight on him? Unless you are just using it to light up the area and it is too far for the beam to be seen by the spy, then I completely agree with you. If you understand what I mean.
I suppose I could just MT whore more to bypass it, but yea.
Something that always bothers me is how people automatically equate stealth with slow. To be honest, mercs tend to be very paranoid. They move around and turn their heads a lot. The window for you to sneak by them in an area with a bottleneck is pretty small. It can be extended with a little harassment from your partner, but you still don't have all the time in the world. Hence you have to move quickly AND quietly (shameless reference to my enhanced sound meter idea). If you spend 30 seconds out in the open because you are creeping in slow speed, you are going to get spotted -- and rightfully so.
Not exactly slow. But slow enough to where you are silent, meaning fast crouch. If a merc passes you, he turns on MT, and you slowly and silently move behind him he's going to detect you. And he doesn't deserve to because he wasn't even looking at you. Sure, you should wait a little longer for the merc to pass, but you might only have that little doorway and a little bit of time to pass.
My point is that mercs don't deserve to find you, if they didn't fairly detect you. If their back is turned and they missed you, they lose. They shouldn't have this ability. They didn't do proper search work if they passed you and they have their back turned to you. So why should you pay the price as a spy for doing your work and moving while the merc isn't looking at you? That's my main bag with MT. The other is the fact that it detects all movement including slow crouching, even with camo. If it didn't detect slow crouching then it might not even matter if it detects 360 degrees anyways because you could always slow crouch behind him if you have to. But then again, moving slowly behind a constantly turning merc isn't always a good idea.
@Spekkio: You wouldn't rather have smoke?!?! Over Flash???? Interesting. Flash bang is great because it does take the merc out of snipe and blinds the shit out of em. I would rather have a merc in smoke running around hoping to find me. What sucks is MT. Being so powerful allows the merc to see the spy no matter what practically. While flash is a useful tool, smoke + chaff on a merc is just so overbearing on the merc.
To balance that flash and chaff are greater than smoke and chaff....should chaff not have an effect on gasmask?
I would still prefer smoke/chaff over flash/chaff. Its what works for my particular style.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 05, 2008, 10:21:51 AM
@
To balance that flash and chaff are greater than smoke and chaff....should chaff not have an effect on gasmask?
gasmask isnt electrical equipment chaff grenades are supposed to just disrupt electrical equipment.
Quote from: MFCISFUNNY on January 05, 2008, 10:43:27 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 05, 2008, 10:21:51 AM
@
To balance that flash and chaff are greater than smoke and chaff....should chaff not have an effect on gasmask?
gasmask isnt electrical equipment chaff grenades are supposed to just disrupt electrical equipment.
But it would work in game yea? It would actually balance things out, seeing as how chaff doesn't deactivate tazer. Just an idea. How do mercenary masks actually operate?
hmm im not even sure lol i just dont think they have any electrical stuff in it...they probably have like filters in it that have like little bags in them which makes for limited oxygen. ya know like the kinds they have on airplanes? i dunno really. all chaff grenades do right now is make the FOV a little bit worse than it already is by putting white bow tie looking objects in your face.
For wide maps with open areas, flash is the best (factory). For maps with smaller corridors, smoke is the best (like Aquarius' Greek-room, although Pirates is better with flash).
Just like the large halls of clubhouse are better with flash, but the small entrances could be better with smoke.
-flash doesn't work reliably
-smoke drains mask thus smoke>flash because of sticky cams
the best combination to cover is smoke+flash or even triple nades.
i prefer flash for maps like factory, but smoke is still equally useful there.
my view on gadget balance is:
-reduce sticky cam amount to 3
-remove smoke nades' ability to knock out a merc
-make flash work reliably (when it fully blinds you it's quite effective but this happens to me about 1/10 of the time; going into zoom shouldn't help, too)
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:56:52 PM
-flash doesn't work reliably
Depends where/how/when you use it. But yeah, it should be a little more reliable than it currently is.
my view on gadget balance is:
-reduce sticky cam amount to 3
-remove smoke nades' ability to knock out a merc
-make flash work reliably (when it fully blinds you it's quite effective but this happens to me about 1/10 of the time; going into zoom shouldn't help, too)
Completely agree.
Gas masks work by filtering the air that is being inhaled. There's no adding of additional
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:56:52 PM
-flash doesn't work reliably
-smoke drains mask thus smoke>flash because of sticky cams
That's my thinking exactly.
And generally while I'd like to have flash, I don't really have the gadget slot to spare for all 3 nades, and I need chaff.
Quote
my view on gadget balance is:
-reduce sticky cam amount to 3
-remove smoke nades' ability to knock out a merc
-make flash work reliably (when it fully blinds you it's quite effective but this happens to me about 1/10 of the time; going into zoom shouldn't help, too)
These sound like some good balancing suggestions.
And here's a question for the flash experts? What exactly modifies the flash duration anyway?
There's an ini-setting. I believe I set it higher, for training. But I don't know if it really affects it.
that's the main problem with ct: nothing is reliable. if you take snares and the opponents don't use eax you wasted a slot. if you take flash and the other one isn't blinded/kicked out of zoom you wasted a gadget slot and are likely to die/not get an objective because of this. if they took uzi, you're even more screwed. with some bug fixes (will be totally different bugs anyways) and a little balance work this will play like a totally different game.
Quote from: Gawain on January 05, 2008, 02:56:52 PM
-flash doesn't work reliably
-smoke drains mask thus smoke>flash because of sticky cams
the best combination to cover is smoke+flash or even triple nades.
i prefer flash for maps like factory, but smoke is still equally useful there.
my view on gadget balance is:
-reduce sticky cam amount to 3
-remove smoke nades' ability to knock out a merc
-make flash work reliably (when it fully blinds you it's quite effective but this happens to me about 1/10 of the time; going into zoom shouldn't help, too)
-Smoke doesn't work reliably, either. Mercs have mask, which completele neutralize its effect.
-If you drop flashbangs, the mercs either are either going to wear their mask for no reason, or they won't put on the mask and you can quick-cam them more easily.
-You will almost always run out of lives before the merc runs out of mask.
As far as the balance changes: I'd like to see the smoke slowdown effect cut somewhat. It's at the point where there's no way in hell you're getting through a smoke cloud without getting KO'd if you don't have mask, and that's just overboard.
@Westfall: See above, and my original post. Yes, smoke will stop a merc from chasing you if he chooses not to put on mask. However, there are two problems aside from the mask: a sniping merc doesn't need to chase you, and emf/mt see right through the smoke.
Yea. MT is overpowering...even EMF in this case. Smoke wouldn't scatter the visual quality of MT or EMF?
You can always try to charge out of smoke in crytical situations
@spekkio, what about removing smoke's ability to knock out mercs? i think the slow down effect is a good tactical tool, but atm you have to use mask to get through more than one smoke nade or in a place like the doors to jakuzzi, no matter if it's important to be fast.
your point with flash causing people to waste mask time because of quickcam risk is a good one.
but with 3 cams instead of 5 the spies would think twice before trying this.
I think that if smoke only slows-down, 3 cams and less 'energy' in the gasmask, it'd be worth trying out.
Technically, these gas masks don't filter air at all. Or less they would have an infinite supply of air. Istead they have a container which hold a supply of oxygen. Just like a SCUBA gas tank, therefore there would be no electronics to disable.
Chaff grenade should disable
Grenades because the rely on electrical systems to release pressurized air to launch them.
Mine, due to the fact that the triggering mechanism is electronic.
All visions, because of the circuitry within them.
Tracking devices, because the magnets would disable the transmittion mechanism.
Reloading, due to it being electronic.
Sticky cameras, due to the circuitry.
Shocking gun, due to the circuitry used to control the pressurized air.
Camnet, because of the curcuitry involved in transmittion of data.
Also about Motion tracking, gameplay wise, it's unfair that mercanaries can activate an ability that forces all spies in the room to move slowly or be caught.
Quote from: Kubanator on January 07, 2008, 04:52:09 AM
Chaff grenade should disable
Grenades because the rely on electrical systems to release pressurized air to launch them.
YAY! That's something I suggested in one of my threads...
make suggestions based on balance not on if you deem it realistic or not. SvM is unrealistic so don't go trying to find some way to explain why it should affect gadget X give a balance reason.
Yeah it would balance the fact that with EAX fixed or gone you'll have a shot against nades that you can't hear. If you've played on xbox you will know what I am talking about. You aren't able to hear nades fired at a distance and by the time you see it you are fucked. If you could throw down chaff and hopefully disable it in time. We've already had this discussion though...
I'm not talking balance, I'm talking science. And I didn't say that frags wouldn't explode, they just wouldn't launch. It would just fall out of the gun and land on the ground, which actually would be pretty funny. :D
Hmm... That'd be pretty interesting, let me think about it a little more. Maybe they wouldn't launch when you are in a chaff nade's range, but when you get out it would work fine.
not hearing mercs fire nades from long range is a good thing, as it gives more stealth and kill opportunities for the merc. if you want to be safe from them, let your teammate cover and warn you, use bullets, more careful timing etc.
Quote from: Kubanator on January 07, 2008, 07:05:17 AM
I'm not talking balance, I'm talking science. And I didn't say that frags wouldn't explode, they just wouldn't launch. It would just fall out of the gun and land on the ground, which actually would be pretty funny. :D
Science has to take a back seat in games. You can't just botch a game because you feel that "science" says you can. The way chaff works now is fine. Making it completely nerf nades would over power it way too much.
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 02:35:33 PM
not hearing mercs fire nades from long range is a good thing,
It's really not.
If you've ever tried to play steel squat on xbox or without EAX, you'd know what I mean. It's literally impossible to hack anything with the shutters open, because you can't hear the nade and can't dodge it. You're just simply dead. And the shutters don't stay closed long enough for you to win at it. Such that if you get a couple of frag experts, you've got no chance.
You need to hear nades at long-range.
it could be balanced with a slightely different map design, but it's hard to tell without testing.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 07, 2008, 10:19:12 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 02:35:33 PM
not hearing mercs fire nades from long range is a good thing,
It's really not.
If you've ever tried to play steel squat on xbox or without EAX, you'd know what I mean. It's literally impossible to hack anything with the shutters open, because you can't hear the nade and can't dodge it. You're just simply dead. And the shutters don't stay closed long enough for you to win at it. Such that if you get a couple of frag experts, you've got no chance.
You need to hear nades at long-range.
Considering how easy the spies have it on Squat, I'm skeptical.
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 10:24:51 PM
it could be balanced with a slightely different map design, but it's hard to tell without testing.
Easy the spies have it? No. They don't. How easy the mercs have it. They can just camp and when they see someone start to hack they just launch a nade through the window. It's very difficult for the spies to hack anything without hacking a panel or taking out the mercs first. They see the nade for a split second, they have no idea it is coming, and they have NO time to get out of the room. It's a MUCH MUCH different experience without EAX superhearing.
And Gawain, you seem to be putting a lot of pressure on the map designers. Not everything can be balanced by map design. Like if you make steel squat windows bigger and more open so spies can see the nades faster and react quicker, then you make it much easier for mercs to snipe the spies.
Quote from: Kubanator on January 07, 2008, 04:52:09 AM
Reloading, due to it being electronic.
Is not, its mechanical. Maybe jamming could be possible tho ;)
QuoteEasy the spies have it? No. They don't. How easy the mercs have it. They can just camp and when they see someone start to hack they just launch a nade through the window. It's very difficult for the spies to hack anything without hacking a panel or taking out the mercs first. They see the nade for a split second, they have no idea it is coming, and they have NO time to get out of the room. It's a MUCH MUCH different experience without EAX superhearing.
Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.
How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.
The only thing that makes squat
somewhat difficult is the fact that the mercs can still snipe both spy-side objectives and the crane hack after you hack the spy-side shutters. In other words, the mercs can bottle up on the spy side similar to the way mercs can just bottle up on the first floor of club to make things more difficult. But if you make the spy side/crane hack your first priority instead of rushing the top merc side like 99.9% of people do, then you have a much easier time with it.
QuoteIs not, its mechanical. Maybe jamming could be possible tho
Well, manual reloads are mechanical, but the clip seems to fall out when the shots are fired, so I assume that electronic. Though that could be from training.
Quote from: Kubanator on January 08, 2008, 02:10:19 AM
QuoteIs not, its mechanical. Maybe jamming could be possible tho
Well, manual reloads are mechanical, but the clip seems to fall out when the shots are fired, so I assume that electronic. Though that could be from training.
We always had to change the magazines manually when I was at the army. Dont know if you americans got some uber automatic shit for that, but I doubt it.
There's a read out for rate-of-fire, it has the ability to load out with tasers, grenades, flares, etc, it can load 2 different kinds of ammo (sniper and standard), and this isn't the army. This is a highly trained, heavily armed, experianced mercanary group. A privatized equivalent to Special Forces. I don't think that they would want to have a larger reload time.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 08, 2008, 02:04:26 AM
Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.
How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.
Merc is watching? They can fire nades from the center of the level? Yeah, there's always going to be a merc near there. As far as assuming the nade is coming and running, that basically means you get no actual hacking time done. And then the mercs partner comes up and blows your head off while you're dancing around trying to get the other guy to waste frags.
As far as a limited amount of frags, they've got 8 frags each (assuming dual backpack). If they hold their frags specifically for anti-hack, which you know, good mercs will, they can keep you from hacking for a really long time. And that doesn't even count suiciding for more frags.
Trust me, it's an entirely different map without EAX.
I don't have eax and I don't have any problems you mentioned. I CAN hear the nades without eax and I have no problems escaping. If you get to a hack silently your optimal hacking time is 2 seconds before merc will be able to react.
I think that what you mentioned might be related to the slow xbox controls.
True, if you add these small new modifications, it could change the game more than desired, and impact the scale of skilled and new people, With the entire stronger bullets and stuff. Not necessary :D. Stay kewl.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 08, 2008, 03:52:58 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on January 08, 2008, 02:04:26 AM
Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.
How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.
Merc is watching? They can fire nades from the center of the level? Yeah, there's always going to be a merc near there. As far as assuming the nade is coming and running, that basically means you get no actual hacking time done. And then the mercs partner comes up and blows your head off while you're dancing around trying to get the other guy to waste frags.
As far as a limited amount of frags, they've got 8 frags each (assuming dual backpack). If they hold their frags specifically for anti-hack, which you know, good mercs will, they can keep you from hacking for a really long time. And that doesn't even count suiciding for more frags.
Trust me, it's an entirely different map without EAX.
100% true Invisible... If you could hear frags then it wouldn't be so difficult. But, if you can't hear them at far distances, as soon as you see it pop into the window frame you ARE dead. Limited frags? Please... 24 frags per merc (8x3) so 48 frags total. 48 frags for 8 easy kills. That's basically all it is on steel squat. Even if you do get the crane, you still have to get atleast 3 objectives. It's not as impossible as you make it sound to guard the panels and still be able to throw nades into windows at the same time. This map is one of the reasons I suggested some way to be able to counter frags - chaff disabling frags was one of them.
And guggle, who said stronger bullets? I only suggested stronger bullets for burst but that is balanced by the fact that it has a low ROF. If that's what you were talking about of course.
papa, you are in no position to talk about balance. and i didn't mean to make the map more open, but to add more obstacles that require to first walk to certain nading points which takes more time, stuff like that.
listen to kronf, simply don't hack one objective longer than 2s. spekkio is also right that most players start hacking the spy-side objectives and crane too late.
if there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.
Quoteif there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.
I highly disagree. Two of the easiest spy maps in the game.
easy spy (order of difficulty from left to right):
cinema, hospital, squat, vertigo, club, krauser, orphanage
medium spy (order of difficulty form left to right):
factory, mall, museum, aquarius, schermerhorn
Almost impossible spy (order of difficulty from left to right):
Station, Bank, Warehouse, Missile, Deftech
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 08, 2008, 03:52:58 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on January 08, 2008, 02:04:26 AM
Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.
How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.
Merc is watching? They can fire nades from the center of the level? Yeah, there's always going to be a merc near there. As far as assuming the nade is coming and running, that basically means you get no actual hacking time done. And then the mercs partner comes up and blows your head off while you're dancing around trying to get the other guy to waste frags.
As far as a limited amount of frags, they've got 8 frags each (assuming dual backpack). If they hold their frags specifically for anti-hack, which you know, good mercs will, they can keep you from hacking for a really long time. And that doesn't even count suiciding for more frags.
Trust me, it's an entirely different map without EAX.
Again, there is no way the merc can cover all the objectives AND the shutter hacks at the same time, even with grenades. If you stand by the merc shutter hack, you can't cover lower spy. If you're standing to cover lower spy/upper spy, you can't cover either shutter hack. If you're covering the spy shutter hack, you can't cover lower merc and merc shutter hack.
Most people tend to put one person on the 3rd floor merc side to snipe the spy side. The other guy either stays near the dumpster outside 1st floor spy, or near the crane hack. That still leaves the merc shutters to hack. It also allows you to constantly tap-hack like kronf pointed out -- get 2 seconds, leave. You can also have your partner shock the third floor merc while you chip away at 1st floor spy side. You do not need to actually hear the grenades to be able to do this. Just throw a couple snares, run around and have a good time. Just like club.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 08, 2008, 02:45:34 PM
Quoteif there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.
I highly disagree. Two of the easiest spy maps in the game.
which is exactly the reason those are balanced as the general win/loss ratio heavily favors the merc side.
however, i like the gameplay better on maps like factory (which i would consider quite balanced with +1min mission time and maybe some minor obstacle and camnet changes assuming ct gameplay).
what makes steel and club a hit-n-run map is the proximity of many objectives and the poorly implemented vertical layout which makes it easier for spies to change floors than for mercs.
All the maps in my "easy spy" category can be won by never using any stealth at all (not counting elimination). That's just stupid.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 08, 2008, 02:45:34 PM
Quoteif there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.
I highly disagree. Two of the easiest spy maps in the game.
easy spy (order of difficulty from left to right):
cinema, hospital, squat, polar base vertigo, club, krauser, orphanage
medium spy (order of difficulty form left to right):
factory, mall, museum, aquarius, schermerhorn
Almost impossible spy (order of difficulty from left to right):
Station, Bank, Warehouse, Missile, Deftech
This is quite an accurate list.
You guys just don't get it do you? You CAN cover the panels and the objectives. All you need is a clear shot at the opposite building. You get a clear shot by moving to a window, that's it. No challenge there. And guess what, there are windows by the panels. You can camp by the shop, which is by the panel, and still be able to fire grenades into the other building. Then, when they do fire nades when a spy is hacking, they will die 99% of the time because they couldn't see it coming. It's a whole different experience than you guys understand it is...
Yeah, I think most of the PC players just aren't used to what having no EAX does.
The merc tactics pretty much can change entirely. If the mercs want pretty much they can both be in the courtyard and patrol the shutter hacks + the crane hack. As a variant, one merc can be on the fire escape platforms outside the merc building with a rifle. But really that's basically the same, since both have easy courtyard access.
So here's what happens. You start hacking something on either building, one merc fires a nade (stopping the hack or killing you). If you do gradual hacks, where you back off and then do it again, then one merc goes up the stairs after you while the other remains down bottom wtih frags. Gradual hacking is so slow and you have to be so paranoid that it really doesn't accomplish much. It's a good idea in theory, but remember, you pick off 2 seconds, one merc is coming your way and the other is covering the hack with grenades. He may fire a nade unexpectedly before you start hacking in an effort to guess when you'll resume again. If he does this correctly, you're dead. And with the other merc coming up the stairs at you, you don't really have time to dick around.
Now you may be able to get the other merc wtih a waiting sticky or something. But even if you do, so what? You're still playing a guessing game with nades from the window.
As for your partner, he either chooses to stay wtih you in the same building and ambush the merc who comes to get you, or try to attack the other building. Attacking the other building doesn't tend to work very well though because you've still got one merc in the courtyard with frags. So he can get 2 seconds off the thing and then has to play the frag guessing game. About the only thing you can do is have your partner draw one merc into a building and then quickcam the other merc in the courtyard, that'll get you one hack.
Getting the crane hack or any of the bottom level hacks is basically impossible. Since both mercs are down there most of the time and your mines are concentrated at defending those.
Now I know you're thinking that this strategy probably sounds pretty noob, but with no EAX, it's really quite effective.
You've got 8 nades per merc life. If you each suicide once for more equipment, that's 32 nades. More than enough to keep the objectives locked down.
I'll repeat it again I have no EAX. Ya you can't hear things from far away, but thats not the end of the world
- If a merc decides to camp near a window to snipe he becomes very vulnerable for grabs.
- Its very easy to make merc waste frags and if you believe he can easily suicide for it then you are wrong. As soon as one merc is off the map for 15 seconds, by that time you can get 1 or even 2 objectives of your choice.
- Hacking gradually by 2 seconds IS very effective in practice. Mostly because squat objectives are only 8 seconds long.
- Its very easy to hack 2 seconds shutters. If they are camping shutters then they just leave objectives open.
- If mercs camps on a balcony on 3rd floor you have at least 3 ways to neutralize him. You can ledge grab him, you can jump on him from above, you can sticky cam him. Not to mention he is just absolutely easy to shock whenever you want.
- You might have invisible soundless nades on a laggy server, but that has nothing to do with game mechanics. Hell, on some servers I cant hear merc's shots, but that doesn't make rifle broken or anything.
QuoteHe may fire a nade unexpectedly before you start hacking in an effort to guess when you'll resume again. If he does this correctly, you're dead.
Thats how merc wastes his nades. You don't just wait inside the hack room, you wait in a room nearby. Then you hack 1-2 seconds and leave as soon as merc launches a nade. You dont have to hear it you know that as soon as you start hacking he will try to nade you. If he goes up the stairs not only he opens up the lower objective, but whats more important he opens up crane. Just go for crane and you will make him waste even more frags since he cant snipe from second floor. This all is assuming that your partner doesnt sit in spawn doing nothing, but is trying to get objectives from second building or just shocking mercs. This is just one example of what you could do and not some ultimate unbeatable strategy.
I dont know what eax has to do with steel squat being a run-and-hack map and whats more importantly what it does for spies. Ya I wish sometimes I had eax as merc, but imo it absolutely makes no difference for spies. You can hear without eax everything thats close to you.
I'm tired and drunk, and I hope this post makes sense. Kkthnxbye.
+1
Eax for spies helps find mines, and even that sometimes works against you. That's about it.
I am also a PC player that is not able to use eax. I have been around since the PT-demo days and it hasn't hurt me as far as I can tell. I wear a headset with the volume cranked up and I can hear lots, both as spy and merc.
EDIT: also I find with headsets the stero works better, as in you can tell left / right better.
I'm starting to think that it is a console to PC difference rather than an EAX to no EAX ordeal then. Because on console, it's much different than you all make it out to be. I'd say that I can only hear nades being fired from about 100-130 feet away on xbox. That is with my surround sound set up and everything. (surround sound works great on CT if you can figure out how to make it work)
But no matter how elaborate the speaker system, I just can't possibly hear nades fired from across steel squat. Especially if it is fired from a higher or lower position than I am in. And usually the nades come from a higher or lower position while hacking.
QuoteI'm starting to think that it is a console to PC difference rather than an EAX to no EAX ordeal then.
Yea, the difference is apparently higher standard of skill to win.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 09, 2008, 03:01:55 PM
QuoteI'm starting to think that it is a console to PC difference rather than an EAX to no EAX ordeal then.
Yea, the difference is apparently higher standard of skill to win.
+1
invisibleman, you got it all wrong: you don't wait next to the objective after hacking 2s to resume hacking some seconds later, but you go to another one, hack 2s there and disappear again. you only hack longer when your partner is covering you or the mercs are busy/out of position. if you do this right, the only thing the mercs accomplish is wasting nades.
wtf... A difference like that doesn't make pc better than console, it just makes it different. In fact, it makes it harder for spies. So, what? What's your point?
the point is that hack-2s-and-run tactics (or being covered) are the most effective ones on steel thus your problem with not hearing long distance nades doesn't exist for good players.
and no, it's definitely not harder for spies on console, it's for mercs. no need to try the console version to know that...
Ffs, go play console (I have played PC) You'll see the difference. But it doesn't make PC any better. Doesn't exist for good players? Wow, you really just don't get it do you? NO. It doesn't exist for players on console or w/o EAX (not sure about EAX) But, on PC you are able to hear long distance nades, while I am not on console. Same hardware for everyone on console.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 09, 2008, 05:10:47 PM
wtf... A difference like that doesn't make pc better than console, it just makes it different. In fact, it makes it harder for spies. So, what? What's your point?
but it is also easier for spies on console since you don't have to deal with a merc using a mouse.
Quote from: Gawain on January 09, 2008, 05:16:28 PM
and no, it's definitely not harder for spies on console, it's for mercs. no need to try the console version to know that...
For the most part, it's not harder for spies. Steel squat is the exception. And yeah, you really do have to try the console version to know that.
Harder merc = easier spy.
Harder spy = easier merc.
But, there are so many exceptions, that one may say that this rule doesn't apply at all.
Mouse is easier to use as a merc. But there are definitely people who are great with a thumbstick. For the most part it really really depends who you play with. In general, if you play people at or below your skill level, spy is easier. But then again, if you play with people at or below your skill level as a merc it isn't that difficult either. So, it really depends who you play with imo. Of course mercs have an advantage on PC, but spies have some abilities that console players do not. For instance, crouch roll crouch is a BIG one. And that you can hear a nade fire from across the map is ALSO a pretty big boost for spies. Don't forget assigning key combos to just one key seems like to me that there would be no room for mistakes for triple nading and quick camming maybe.
assigning scripts to keys is poor and i consider it cheating.
PLZ NOT ANOTHER CONSOLE PLAYERS' SKILL ISN'T LOWER SPAM KKTHXBAI
Aside from that, hearing grenades from across the map is a big boost. So is crouch roll crouch. On console, spies can't go through a set of laser beams without making noise or alerting mercs of security failures, so it's best to avoid them. Being able to go through them with no noise being made is a gigantic boost for spies, even though it is somewhat of a bug I believe. Just because we can't possibly do things that PC players can, it doesn't automatically lower our skill level.
Can you assign crouch roll crouch to just one key? If so, then omfg...
dude, you're really provoking me with your bloody ignorance. i'm not saying that console players play worse because of other game mechanics/controls, but because they are worse players. i don't know about all the players, but all the console folks that i've encountered show their lower understanding of svm pretty obvious in their posts.
the difference on steel can't be that big: good players fire nades in 2-3s after you start hacking (or snipe) anyways and it becomes way harder to get away (especially stealthy so that the merc has no idea where you appear in 15s) when one guy is chasing you and the other one is sniping from a good position, so leaving after hacking 2s sounds like a good solution no matter if you play on pc or xbox, doesn't it?
and no, i don't need console experience to tell that the spies have an overall easier time on console.
Quote from: Gawain on January 09, 2008, 08:30:15 PM
i'm not saying that console players play worse because of other game mechanics/controls, but because they are worse players. i don't know about all the players, but all the console folks that i've encountered show their lower understanding of svm pretty obvious in their posts.
Or quite possibly, their "lower understanding" is due to adapting to a different set of controls and game mechanics (not hearing nades).
Lets see you pick up a console controller and start playing some games. Play some good teams. After you've done that, you can lecture us about how you know everything.
Quote
the difference on steel can't be that big: good players fire nades in 2-3s after you start hacking (or snipe) anyways and it becomes way harder to get away (especially stealthy so that the merc has no idea where you appear in 15s) when one guy is chasing you and the other one is sniping from a good position, so leaving after hacking 2s sounds like a good solution no matter if you play on pc or xbox, doesn't it?
and no, i don't need console experience to tell that the spies have an overall easier time on console.
Yeah, you can just ignorantly make statements about a version of a game that you've never played, based purely on theory and assumption.
It's one thing to tell console players why certain strategies wouldn't work on the PC version, or why something should be a specific way because of PC controls.
However, telling console players how things work on the console version, a version
you've never played, is arrogant and short-sighted. Until you've picked up a console controller and played at least 50 hours on the console version, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
What you've said here makes you sound like a fool talking out of his ass.
If a good merc fires a grenade in after 2-3 seconds, then your 2 seconds hacking and leaving method is extremely flawed.
+1 for invisible
temp-locked since I see another flame coming. Unlock in 1 hour.
*forgot the time*
*is ashamed*
You should be lol
I knew what I said would start some sparks ;D.
In all seriousness, the mercs have a lot more tools available to them on the PC than they do on the Xbox -- HQ MT, EAX, instant turning to any direction, easier aim. If the spies are going to compete with that, then they have to get better than they do on the Xbox, just like people were forced to get better once SS+DJ was removed from the game.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 10, 2008, 07:38:52 PM
I knew what I said would start some sparks ;D.
In all seriousness, the mercs have a lot more tools available to them on the PC than they do on the Xbox -- HQ MT, EAX, instant turning to any direction, easier aim. If the spies are going to compete with that, then they have to get better than they do on the Xbox, just like people were forced to get better once SS+DJ was removed from the game.
And since spies ALSO have more abilities on PC than they do on xbox, that shouldn't really be that much of a problem. All they got to do is lock the buttons down to their playing style, get used to the differences, and use the features that PC spies have to their advantage. Like I said before, crouch roll crouch, is a big one that console players do not have. Assigning one button for a combo of buttons is also a feature console players would love.
Mercs can also instantly turn on xbox, it is usually done while in mid air though... Spies also have EAX, don't forget that. They can hear nades fired at them from across squat.
Yeah, it's a map dependant thing. On most maps, Spekkio is right. The extra features of PC tend to help mercs more so than spies.
On steel squat however, high quality MT isn't really all that useful and EAX actually helps spies more so than mercs. So the extra features on PC tend to help out the spies in that instance. It usually does not happen that way, but on steel squat it just so happens that's the way it works out. Squat is a weird exception because it's a frag whore's paradise. And if you have no way of hearing frag from out the window, you basically lose.
Spekkio's argument as a whole about PC players being better than xbox players is flawed IMO. Just because spies tend to have a harder time on average on PC doesn't make them better. I mean, after all if that logic were true, then I could just as easily say xbox mercs > PC mercs because the xbox mercs have to get by with just a console stick, low quality MT and no EAX. Since mercs are forced to adapt to this environment, then they're going to have to get better than a PC merc would have to, who can rely on his PC enhancements as a crutch. Obviously, I don't feel that's true, but by Spekkio's logic, it would be.
QuoteYeah, it's a map dependant thing. On most maps, Spekkio is right. The extra features of PC tend to help mercs more so than spies.
Just remember: it helped them so much that it made you
stop playing the pc version.
Well, I stopped playing PC after about a month. I realized that I didn't want to keep updating my hard/software in order to play the upcoming games. Plus my PC got messed up, and I decided to buy a console rather than fix the damn thing. I didn't feel that one side was completely overpowered compared to the other. You just had to adapt and change your playstyle accordingly to the other teams perks, as well as your own team's advantages.
But on steel squat, the map is ultimately impossible against good mercs. The 2 seconds of hacking then run technique DOES NOT work in my experience. Because, like Gawain said, a good merc will be ready to fire a grenade and do so within 2-3 seconds of hacking. 2-3 seconds isn't enough time to get out of the room when 2 seconds of your time is already eaten up by hacking. And with so much grenades available to the mercs, they don't even have to die to have enough frags to last them the match.
QuoteWell, I stopped playing PC after about a month. I realized that I didn't want to keep updating my hard/software in order to play the upcoming games. Plus my PC got messed up, and I decided to buy a console rather than fix the damn thing. I didn't feel that one side was completely overpowered compared to the other. You just had to adapt and change your playstyle accordingly to the other teams perks, as well as your own team's advantages.
Last I checked, developers aren't in the habit of releasing patches that update the graphics of a game.
I didn't mean just for one game for updating. I meant that as new games come out, you NEED to update everything, which costs quite a bit of money that I would rather not spend. Example: Crysis :o Holy shit it would cost me in the hundreds right now just to update my PC just to play the damn game, add the $50 bucks for the game itself also. I'd rather have an easier way to just have the same hardware for every game, which are all pretty good. Obviously PC's are better for gaming, but consoles can be equally fun and entertaining.
On topic. Actually, we were off topic in the first place. Should we even go back to talking about the assault rifle or has that ship sailed for everyone else?
I'd like either a 3 weapon or a 1 weapon system, they both are good ways to go and would get practically the same result anyways...
Its not really true that you have to change your pc every month... Besides, you dont have to play every single game that comes out. Its just better to find the one you like most.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 11, 2008, 12:24:20 AM
Just remember: it helped them so much that it made you stop playing the pc version.
Hell yeah, but that wasn't on steel squat, that was just on like every other map. The advantage is quite overwhelming most of the time. Steel squat is perhaps the one exception where spies benefit more from EAX than mercs.
I was gaming on the same computer for 3 years, before I upgraded.
I didn't even upgrade for gaming reasons.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 11, 2008, 09:50:47 AM
I was gaming on the same computer for 3 years, before I upgraded.
I didn't even upgrade for gaming reasons.
8)
money-saver like me ^_^
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 01:53:39 AM
I didn't mean just for one game for updating. I meant that as new games come out, you NEED to update everything, which costs quite a bit of money that I would rather not spend. Example: Crysis :o Holy shit it would cost me in the hundreds right now just to update my PC just to play the damn game, add the $50 bucks for the game itself also. I'd rather have an easier way to just have the same hardware for every game, which are all pretty good. Obviously PC's are better for gaming, but consoles can be equally fun and entertaining.
On topic. Actually, we were off topic in the first place. Should we even go back to talking about the assault rifle or has that ship sailed for everyone else?
I'd like either a 3 weapon or a 1 weapon system, they both are good ways to go and would get practically the same result anyways...
So long as you don't expect to play at some insanely high resolution, you can buy a gaming computer once every 2-3 years and be perfectly fine. You can also often salvage parts that don't age, like storage and peripherals, bringing the cost down to around $800.
It's still more expensive than a console, but if you factor in that you'd have to buy a PC on top of a console anyway, it equals out.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 11, 2008, 01:34:10 PM
bringing the cost down to around $800.
Perhaps in America or west Europe countries its possible.
Well, the main reason is that my PC broke in the first place. I knew that there would be some high end games coming out in the next few years and that I'd be able to play them on console anyways. Console hardware is reliable(most of the time) and you don't have to upgrade it ever. Don't tell me you guys didn't have to upgrade for crysis lol I heard people were spending in the thousands to get it where it could even run the game.
I just thought, what the hell, I might as well get a console then.
2-3 years and youre gonna have to buy xbox720...
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 05:12:57 PMDon't tell me you guys didn't have to upgrade for crysis
My, like, 4 years old PC can run it. So can my school PC. On low graphics settings, sure, but it can.
My PC runs it at low. It's like 2 years old but it wasn't top of the line when I bought it.
I get a new one every 3-4 years and usually an update in between.
Quote from: frvge on January 11, 2008, 05:37:09 PM
My PC runs it at low. It's like 2 years old but it wasn't top of the line when I bought it.
I get a new one every 3-4 years and usually an update in between.
Damn. 3 years you buy a new PC? Like how expensive? + an update? Wow. This was the reason I got a console. You get some great games, they are still fun, and it's much cheaper and reliable. Not dissing on PC because I know how powerful those things can be and everything, but still.
Expensive? No, usually mid-range. This is my first PC, which cost 650 euros, I added 512MB of RAM. So 700 euros for 2 years. But I use it for work and surfing and stuff, so it's ok.
For console it's like 300 dollars for 7 years with no updating in between. Of course games cost 10 bucks more but it's no biggie. And that isn't so bad frvge, what you pay I mean.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
Quote from: frvge on January 11, 2008, 05:37:09 PM
My PC runs it at low. It's like 2 years old but it wasn't top of the line when I bought it.
I get a new one every 3-4 years and usually an update in between.
Damn. 3 years you buy a new PC? Like how expensive? + an update? Wow. This was the reason I got a console. You get some great games, they are still fun, and it's much cheaper and reliable. Not dissing on PC because I know how powerful those things can be and everything, but still.
You are using the example of
one game to support your point. Fact is,
most games don't work like that. My system has hardware in it that is
5 years old, and I am able to get 40+ fps consistently out of games released as late as winter, 2006.
You can buy a top-of-the-line PC for around $1,200 these days. And that's with premium everything, and starting from scratch -- no keyboard, mouse, monitor, etc. After that, you can save the case, DVD drive(s), hard drives, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and sound card for all future updates. That means updating will cost you in the realm of $300 - $800, and the price mostly depends on whether or not you need a new motherboard to support your better hardware.
The cost of the 360 when it came out was $500 -- that's with only one controller. Factor in that, if you want internet like almost everyone has, you need to buy a $500-$700 PC, and you need another $50 controller, and now you're up to pretty much the same cost as a gaming PC. New consoles cycle around 4-5 years, not 7.
4-5 years? Nah. Look at the release times for xbox-360 and ps2-ps3. It was longer than 4 years.
I don't want to spend 1,200 dollars for something to play games on. Thats' just something I do for fun. Maybe like 1 or 2 hours a day, sometimes a little more. I will admit though, that Rock Band cost me about 170 bucks, but that is an experience that PC cannot offer. PC also is a little less social. I mean you can have your friends come over and you can all play at once. PC you'd have to take turns and whatnot, and it's not as fun.
PC's are going to cost you a little more money obviously. Imo, consoles offer experiences that PC's can't. And PC's also offer some experiences that consoles can't too. But I like the stuff consoles have going for them, except for the 10 year old community that sings into the mic. One of my only complaints.
QuoteI don't want to spend 1,200 dollars for something to play games on. Thats' just something I do for fun. Maybe like 1 or 2 hours a day, sometimes a little more. I will admit though, that Rock Band cost me about 170 bucks, but that is an experience that PC cannot offer. PC also is a little less social. I mean you can have your friends come over and you can all play at once. PC you'd have to take turns and whatnot, and it's not as fun.
But it's not just for playing games. PCs can play music and movies. They also have this nifty hookup to the internet that you're using right now. They can be used for school projects and work functions as well.
When you invest $1200+ into a gaming PC, you're not just investing in a gaming system. You're investing in a PC that is capable of playing graphically demanding games.
The Xbox was released in Nov, 2001. The Xbox 360 was released exactly 4 years later in Nov, 2005.
Playstation was released in Sept, 2005. The PS2 was released five years later in Oct, 2000. The PS3 was released in Nov, 2006. Considering the specs and cost of the PS3, you can see why it took longer than average to release it.
The Sega Master System was released in Oct, 1986. The Sega Genesis was released merely 3 years later in Aug, 1989. The Sega Saturn was released 6 years later May, 1995*. The Sega Dreamcast was released 4 years later in Sep, 1999.
*Inbetween the Genesis and Saturn was the Sega CD, an add-on system of its own for the Sega Genesis.
The Nintendo Entertainment System was released in Oct of 1985. The SNES was released almost 6 years later in Aug, 1991. The Nintendo 64 was released 5 years later in Sept, 1996. The GCN was released 5 years after that in Nov, 2001. The Wii was released 5 years after that in Nov, 2006.
The industry standard life of a console is approx. 5 years. Sony's 6-year period of PS2 ---> PS3 is abnormally long, and there is no major company that waited 7 years between releases since 1990.
The main advantage to consoles that I see is that you eliminate a lot of the bullshit problems you get with PC games. I can't even count the number of times Doom 3 has frozen on me or some other crap because i didn't adjust the graphics right, or needed to update my drivers or some other BS to try to optimize my hardware with the game. And it gets to the point where you're spending like 3 hours sometimes just trying to get the damn game to run.
With a console, you just open the drive, pop the game in and it works like it's supposed to. Want your new controller to work? Just plug it in and go. Getting your xbox live network connection to work? Well I just plugged in the ethernet cable and it worked. No problem. Want to use a mic? Just plug it in and it works, instantly. No mic configuration bullshit, no drivers. It just works. So when you start up CT on your xbox, you don't have to worry about turning on your merc flashlight and crashing the game because some random software/hardware fault doesn't like your graphics card.
If there's a plus to console systems, it's definitely that.
Unless you have a 360.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 08:17:36 PMPC also is a little less social. I mean you can have your friends come over and you can all play at once. PC you'd have to take turns and whatnot, and it's not as fun.
Yeah, that's why thousands of people gather at LAN parties ::)
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 11, 2008, 11:18:12 PM
The main advantage to consoles that I see is that you eliminate a lot of the bullshit problems you get with PC games. I can't even count the number of times Doom 3 has frozen on me or some other crap because i didn't adjust the graphics right, or needed to update my drivers or some other BS to try to optimize my hardware with the game. And it gets to the point where you're spending like 3 hours sometimes just trying to get the damn game to run.
With a console, you just open the drive, pop the game in and it works like it's supposed to. Want your new controller to work? Just plug it in and go. Getting your xbox live network connection to work? Well I just plugged in the ethernet cable and it worked. No problem. So when you start up CT on your xbox, you don't have to worry about turning on your merc flashlight and crashing the game because some random software/hardware fault doesn't like your graphics card.
If there's a plus to console systems, it's definitely that.
I agree there. I was simply saying that the life of a gaming PC and the life of a console are not that different. The cost of a gaming PC is definitely more, but when you factor in that you will also be buying a PC for all the other stuff you do, the cost difference is a little less striking.
On top of that, internet gaming for PC is free.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both sides. Like I said, I'm simply pointing out that Papa was grossly exagerrating how often one has to upgrade his computer to play games.
Quote from: Overstatement on January 11, 2008, 11:19:28 PM
Unless you have a 360.
I haven't experienced NEAR as many problems with my 360 in years as I had with my PC in less than 3 months.
Yeah, I have a PC that does everything you said Spekkio. And even with a brand new 360 bought at the same time as a PC, it didn't cost half as much as it would to buy a high end gaming PC.
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 11, 2008, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 08:17:36 PMPC also is a little less social. I mean you can have your friends come over and you can all play at once. PC you'd have to take turns and whatnot, and it's not as fun.
Yeah, that's why thousands of people gather at LAN parties ::)
What? I wasn't even talking about big huge gatherings :D I was talking about your friends just coming over, playing some halo, jokin around, all in one room. Or everyone playing Rock Band - I'm on the drums, and my friends are on the mic, guitar, and bass. You can't get that experience from any PC game. It's much more fun than thousands of sweaty gamers gathered in one big gaming pile lol Consoles are more social than PC's.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2008, 06:06:26 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 11, 2008, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 08:17:36 PMPC also is a little less social. I mean you can have your friends come over and you can all play at once. PC you'd have to take turns and whatnot, and it's not as fun.
Yeah, that's why thousands of people gather at LAN parties ::)
What? I wasn't even talking about big huge gatherings :D I was talking about your friends just coming over, playing some halo, jokin around, all in one room. Or everyone playing Rock Band - I'm on the drums, and my friends are on the mic, guitar, and bass. You can't get that experience from any PC game. It's much more fun than thousands of sweaty gamers gathered in one big gaming pile lol Consoles are more social than PC's.
Of course you weren't talking about what would be
negative for consoles in this context. So you're basically saying that being 5 people in one room is more social than being 5000 in one room? Right.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2008, 06:06:26 AM
Consoles are more social than PC's.
You are incorrect. I have been plenty social with many players throughout my time on CT. You can get fucked up and play games with your friends on X-Box/Wii/PS3....on a PC you can do the exact same. They are practically equal. All that changes is there's a face and expressions/actions as opposed to just voice.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 12, 2008, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2008, 06:06:26 AM
Consoles are more social than PC's.
You are incorrect. I have been plenty social with many players throughout my time on CT. You can get fucked up and play games with your friends on X-Box/Wii/PS3....on a PC you can do the exact same. They are practically equal. All that changes is there's a face and expressions/actions as opposed to just voice.
I got my friends around here like every other day to play some PES or UT on several PCs.
what's PES?
LOL - Pro Evolution Soccer.
This thread definitely proves that this site needs additional forums like off topic and other.
It would allow new people to enter and meet old players and to continue interesting discussion not really connected with the PS. As an example you may look at this mod's forums: http://forums.insmod.net/
OR people could go to SCLamers. (http://sclamers.17.forumer.com/)
the link to sclamers should probably be moved to the top of the page.
Also the SvM wiki could be cleared and updated...
Split screen is so much more fun than playing online with eachother. Especially when you play on a 50 inch screen like I do.
No. Playing on ONE screen is even funnier (Lego Star Wars, lots of console games).
Yeah, umm, that's kind of the same thing I am getting at. Rather than 4 different screens that are spread across the room or across the world. Another ONE screen game that is awesome to play with friends is super smash bros.
I'd rather you guys not pollute my forum (SCL) with bullshit, please.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on January 12, 2008, 06:48:04 PM
OR people could go to SCLamers. (http://sclamers.17.forumer.com/)
Why would someone go to another forum if he wants to talk with people he met here ? Soon, after release, this forum will be known by many people. It would be good to hold them here. Telling them to go somehwere else isnt really good, especially cause they wont be familiar with ppls behaviour there, which is not really friendly to newcomers.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 12, 2008, 07:47:36 PM
I'd rather you guys not pollute my forum (SCL) with bullshit, please.
no offence, but scl cant be polluted more than it is now.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 12, 2008, 07:47:36 PM
I'd rather you guys not pollute my forum (SCL) with bullshit, please.
AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Quote from: neth on January 12, 2008, 08:04:23 PM
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 12, 2008, 07:47:36 PM
I'd rather you guys not pollute my forum (SCL) with bullshit, please.
no offence, but scl cant be polluted more than it is now.
Oh really, so it's all just flamewars and faggotry over there, right?
If you want to see a cesspool of internet filth, visit the ubi forums.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 12, 2008, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: neth on January 12, 2008, 08:04:23 PM
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 12, 2008, 07:47:36 PM
I'd rather you guys not pollute my forum (SCL) with bullshit, please.
no offence, but scl cant be polluted more than it is now.
Oh really, so it's all just flamewars and faggotry over there, right?
Nope, not all for sure, but great part of it. Just enter random topic :)
QuoteIf you want to see a cesspool of internet filth, visit the ubi forums.
These forums are dead, so nothing happens there.
There's a link to SCL at the bottom of the page. I believe it's also named in the 'rules' thread.
Quote from: MR.Mic on January 12, 2008, 07:47:36 PM
I'd rather you guys not pollute my forum (SCL) with bullshit, please.
lol wut?
Quote from: frvge on January 12, 2008, 09:43:14 PM
There's a link to SCL at the bottom of the page. I believe it's also named in the 'rules' thread.
I dont get your motivation.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2008, 07:32:02 PM
Split screen is so much more fun than playing online with eachother. Especially when you play on a 50 inch screen like I do.
Nah. Then anyone can see on each others screens.
And when you are messing around it's better to see everyone's screen. Because it could be really funny.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 13, 2008, 01:53:47 AM
And when you are messing around it's better to see everyone's screen. Because it could be really funny.
Imagine Splinter Cell where the mercs can see the spies' screens.
NO.
1. Splinter Cell isn't a game where you can just mess around and have a lot of fun. Halo is one of those games.
2. I didn't say splinter cell
lock plz .... this has nothing to do with the assault rifle or weapons or gadgets anymore ....
No nononono just split the threads.
Too hard to draw a line for splitting.
This isn't getting us anywhere. I still haven't heard any real solid opinions from you guys about what to do with burst. Either take it out, or make the bullets more accurate or more powerful. Or, increase the ROF within those three shots but keep the time between burst shots the same.
My opinion is that it either needs a boost, or it needs to be taken out, because there isn't a good reason to use it right now. It offers no advantage to using it. All it does is help you conserve ammo, a tiny bit.
would be cool if you could burst while snipping, would be semi-inacurate but one would have to assume at least 1 outa 3 would hit the spy
Depends if those bullets are as powerful as sniper bullets. If so, that would be op.
Burst Fire doesn't seem necessary anymore.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 14, 2008, 01:45:23 AM
This isn't getting us anywhere. I still haven't heard any real solid opinions from you guys about what to do with burst. Either take it out, or make the bullets more accurate or more powerful. Or, increase the ROF within those three shots but keep the time between burst shots the same.
My opinion is that it either needs a boost, or it needs to be taken out, because there isn't a good reason to use it right now. It offers no advantage to using it. All it does is help you conserve ammo, a tiny bit.
You can find my opinion on that in the suggested change log thread.
Increase power, increase cooldown (currently the ROF of burst and full-auto are equal).
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 14, 2008, 03:16:14 AM
Burst Fire doesn't seem necessary anymore.
Well, did it ever? Let's give it a use, or give it the boot.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 14, 2008, 04:47:55 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 14, 2008, 03:16:14 AM
Burst Fire doesn't seem necessary anymore.
Well, did it ever? Let's give it a use, or give it the boot.
I say boot.
I like the idea of either increasing the RoF of burst (but giving it a cooldown so it's slower over the long term than auto), or making it more accurate, such that it produces less recoil or something.
exactly. maybe just its accuracy or its damage increased would be a good enough boost for some people to use it.
Why dont we boost it just a bit. I dont use it and probably never will but I always liked SC for giving players many options. Burst is like split jump - you use it hardly ever but the fact that you can use it makes you feel like a fucking warrior.
Hahahaha.
No. Burst fire should be forgotten or kicked.
Either way, you can shoot in burst fire in ct just by holding your click for .5 second.
And, how about throwing grenades down with the mouse buttons when in split-jump?
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 14, 2008, 08:58:17 PM
And, how about throwing grenades down with the mouse buttons when in split-jump?
Nice idea.
What's the point of that? Except if a merc is sniping you and you throw down a smoke to block his view and attempt to escape. If he's underneath you then why throw a smoke when you can jump on him? This may prove to be interesting though, if split jump is a little more common and useful.
main problem with split jump is that it's pretty noisy. It'd be nice to just have a split jump button where you could set up a split jump silently.
absolutely
That's a different topic though. I think we may need a split jump thread, a burst poll (maybe), and a s.m vs s.m thread. We can wait a little bit to make those though...
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 15, 2008, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: frvge on January 14, 2008, 10:27:29 PM
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 14, 2008, 08:58:17 PM
And, how about throwing grenades down with the mouse buttons when in split-jump?
Nice idea.
Agreed.
As long as the grenades fall faster than the quick-throw nades in CT.
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 15, 2008, 04:52:19 AM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 15, 2008, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: frvge on January 14, 2008, 10:27:29 PM
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 14, 2008, 08:58:17 PM
And, how about throwing grenades down with the mouse buttons when in split-jump?
Nice idea.
Agreed.
As long as the grenades fall faster than the quick-throw nades in CT.
Yes, go ahead. Implement this "good idea". I thought he was being sarcastic. It doesn't seem wise at all. It already isn't that hard to know if a spy has split jump or not. Any accurate merc would be checking everything as he goes, always knowing what's above, below, in front, and behind him. So, go for it. It only gives your position away that much more. Smoke will outline you if you're in a dark area, and if you were hidden and throw a nade down, merc just watched you do it.
I don't deny that it could be clever, but it would lead to your death.....98% of the time.
i think it should be possible to drop nades, and you should also be able to activate camo while in split jump (don't know if it's possible in ct).
it seem's quite balanced to me that you have to think twice before dropping a nade, and camo also isn't op there because when the merc finds you in split jump you are pretty dead anyways.
it's a good thing that it does only work in a fistful of of opportunities, but it's a good slight boost to the underused split-jump so i'd say go for it.
on the burst topic: i suggest a higher rate of fire and less recoil, but with a cooldown between the burst that big that the overall fire rate is a little beneath ct automatic.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 15, 2008, 06:26:00 AM
Yes, go ahead. Implement this "good idea". I thought he was being sarcastic. It doesn't seem wise at all. It already isn't that hard to know if a spy has split jump or not. Any accurate merc would be checking everything as he goes, always knowing what's above, below, in front, and behind him. So, go for it. It only gives your position away that much more. Smoke will outline you if you're in a dark area, and if you were hidden and throw a nade down, merc just watched you do it.
I don't deny that it could be clever, but it would lead to your death.....98% of the time.
Westfall you missed my point.
In CT if you're caught in the splitjump, you're dead right away, so dropping nades when detected would give you a very small time period that could let you escape.
Or not.
It depends where you can use the split jumps and how dark the area is. Even then, if you aren't detected why throw a nade? If you are detected, it would be smarter to throw a nade but you'll die anyways.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 15, 2008, 04:23:57 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 15, 2008, 06:26:00 AM
Yes, go ahead. Implement this "good idea". I thought he was being sarcastic. It doesn't seem wise at all. It already isn't that hard to know if a spy has split jump or not. Any accurate merc would be checking everything as he goes, always knowing what's above, below, in front, and behind him. So, go for it. It only gives your position away that much more. Smoke will outline you if you're in a dark area, and if you were hidden and throw a nade down, merc just watched you do it.
I don't deny that it could be clever, but it would lead to your death.....98% of the time.
Westfall you missed my point.
In CT if you're caught in the splitjump, you're dead right away, so dropping nades when detected would give you a very small time period that could let you escape.
Or not.
Dropping a nade because you're caught wouldn't help you though because the animation of your release, aka gravity, would doom you. Merc charges as you fall, no matter what nade you drop and *SLAP*...one life wasted.
@Gaiwan: Camo can be used while in split jump in CT.
Imo spy should jump higher when performing split jump, it would allow him to be undetected. Right now its too easy to notice a spy in split-jump position
the split jump now is realistic. If the spy goes any higher, we might as well have the dev team put a ladder on the wall only accessible to spies.
He could do the move from single player when he jumps higher after split jump if you care about realism.
Or if the walls are close enough, slowly climb higher.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 15, 2008, 06:26:00 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 15, 2008, 04:52:19 AM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 15, 2008, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: frvge on January 14, 2008, 10:27:29 PM
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 14, 2008, 08:58:17 PM
And, how about throwing grenades down with the mouse buttons when in split-jump?
Nice idea.
Agreed.
As long as the grenades fall faster than the quick-throw nades in CT.
Yes, go ahead. Implement this "good idea". I thought he was being sarcastic. It doesn't seem wise at all. It already isn't that hard to know if a spy has split jump or not. Any accurate merc would be checking everything as he goes, always knowing what's above, below, in front, and behind him. So, go for it. It only gives your position away that much more. Smoke will outline you if you're in a dark area, and if you were hidden and throw a nade down, merc just watched you do it.
I don't deny that it could be clever, but it would lead to your death.....98% of the time.
In CT you could of course shoot grenades while split jumping but if you had been able to simply drop them it could have proved useful especially when caught in a split jump. If you drop a smoke or a flashbang it could provide just enough distraction and obscure the merc's vision for the second needed to escape because the merc will either have to switch visions, wait for a flashbang to wear off, equip and turn on his mask, do nothing or blindly charge in. No matter how you look at it you have improved your chances of either escape or luring the merc into exposing himself. It wouldn't work every time but it is an improvement.
We definitely need the half split jump. It would be awesome to be able to climb narrow passages by using this move. Who else thinks that the maps should be a little more vertical than they are now? Of course, that would mean more ladders,stairs, elevators, pipes (or narrow tall hallways that the spies can climb up using the half split jump)
I think that to get a split jump to be higher you would have to have the spy run up the wall first and then jump. It would all be 2 buttons. 1 button to start running up the wall, then another button to set up the split jump. Sounds good to me.
Ehh... also, i'd like to see the possibilty to throw nades down without the delay between them when in split-jump. Then it would give the spy a few options about what to do.
a. Throw a nade and juts jump down
b. Throw a nade, and wait for the merc to charge in (lawl noob)
c. [just fantasizing here] Throw a smoke (preferably), let the merc change vision to mt (99% probability that he will), throw another nade down, and when he charges fall on him. This option would either prove that the merc is a total noob, or you would die before dropping the second nade.
That would be good. Depends on who you play with of course.