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Idea about MT

Started by Frelli, May 10, 2007, 08:36:27 PM

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Frelli

One idea that just popped up in my head was about a way to maybe prevent MT camping. The idea is to add the wozzy sound that is for emf in ct to mt. It might stop people from having mt on while camping and waiting for the spy to drop a sound.

Spekkio

In PT there was actually a sound while MT was on, which served the purpose that you said. This was not included into CT, and I have it as a suggestion on my fix list thread.

scope2005

Quote from: Frelli on May 10, 2007, 08:36:27 PM
One idea that just popped up in my head was about a way to maybe prevent MT camping. The idea is to add the wozzy sound that is for emf in ct to mt. It might stop people from having mt on while camping and waiting for the spy to drop a sound.

A good idea.

One could go a step further with this however.

Include the buzzing/whooshing noise - yes. But also have the merc lose his sound detector device.

This is something that would need balance testing, but the way I look at it is that if a merc wants as powerfull a device as a motion detector, he must be prepared to lose one of his other detection devices.

As long as 360 degree motion stays out of the initial build, this idea would definately cut down motion whoring. Which merc would would feel safe leaving it on always knowing his back is open to a spy simply running up without detection? 

frvge

There'll still be EAX for normal audio, which can be an advantage for players who have EAX vs non-EAX players.
Quote from: savior2006SCDA has more bugs than a rain forest.
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Kurbutti

#4
From what Scope said, a system where only one detection device could be active at a time, would be good. We can always say, that having too many system on simultaniously takes too much power, and would cause merc's power supply to overheat, thus eventually shutting it down. Maybe that could be a feature.

Overstatement

I don't even understand the problem (I don't have EAX). If this is a problem with MT, shouldn't this also be a problem without MT? Personally, I think everything will be fixed with MT once we remove EAX and motion detecting behind the merc.

And if the need be, to solve the nightvision problem, we could incorperate the distance of stuff from the merc into the shader. Blend stuff of like distances and contrast stuff of unlike distances. So a spy next to a wall will be blended together while a spy out in the corridor will contrast with the wall that's far away.

Quote from: Thy-Tormentor on May 11, 2007, 11:50:12 AM
From what Overstatement said...

I think you meant scope2005's post.

Kurbutti

Oops. Heh, true. Pardon me.

Spekkio

QuoteI don't even understand the problem (I don't have EAX). If this is a problem with MT, shouldn't this also be a problem without MT? Personally, I think everything will be fixed with MT once we remove EAX and motion detecting behind the merc.
Nerf the detection radius, and you make aggro that much easier. MT needs a max distance like EMF, not a detection radius nerf.

Quote
And if the need be, to solve the nightvision problem, we could incorperate the distance of stuff from the merc into the shader.
If you are in a pitch-black shadow, MT will not invert it. For example, digger room if you don't blow the wall out. There are random spots along walls where this happens, too. Just fyi.

Overstatement

Quote from: Spekkio on May 11, 2007, 01:33:29 PM
Nerf the detection radius, and you make aggro that much easier. MT needs a max distance like EMF, not a detection radius nerf.

Assuming you are talking about the MT while being aggro'd, you'll be turning your head like crazy and once MT locks onto one spy, it will stay locked on for a couple of seconds regardless of where he is. And they'll probably be using chaff which makes MT useless.

Quote from: Spekkio on May 11, 2007, 01:33:29 PM
If you are in a pitch-black shadow, MT will not invert it. For example, digger room if you don't blow the wall out. There are random spots along walls where this happens, too. Just fyi.

Yeah, I don't really care about the night vision thing too. I just said it because it's a really cool programming idea!

InvisibleMan999

Quote from: Spekkio on May 11, 2007, 01:33:29 PM
Nerf the detection radius, and you make aggro that much easier. MT needs a max distance like EMF, not a detection radius nerf.
I can certainly agree with that, though I've always believed that MT should be able to lock onto only a running spy that's behind you, that would prevent aggro, while not screwing over stealth people.

QuoteIf you are in a pitch-black shadow, MT will not invert it. For example, digger room if you don't blow the wall out. There are random spots along walls where this happens, too. Just fyi.

MT night vision, IMO shouldn't even exist. I'd like to see it work like the MT fix maps for CT where it doesn't invert shadows at all. If people want to see in the dark, they shouldn't be using MT, they should be using their flashlight.

Gawain

QuoteMT needs a max distance like EMF, not a detection radius nerf.
affirmative. not something like a particular distance, but a smooth transition so that a spy far away can move quite quickly without being detected.

Spekkio

#11
QuoteI can certainly agree with that, though I've always believed that MT should be able to lock onto only a running spy that's behind you, that would prevent aggro, while not screwing over stealth people.
If that's possible to program in, I'd be all for it. I'd also like an indicator on the merc's back if he's in red vision (similar to the visor) since it can detect you while he's not looking that way.

QuoteMT night vision, IMO shouldn't even exist. I'd like to see it work like the MT fix maps for CT where it doesn't invert shadows at all. If people want to see in the dark, they shouldn't be using MT, they should be using their flashlight.
I have to tell you that when Zed discovered how to do this, I was ecstatic. However, while playing the UMP maps that have this "fix", it really doesn't fix 75% of the problem with MT: if you so much as fart from across the map, the merc is going to turn around and start shooting at you. Also, the maps where MT whoring is most of a pain are ones with wide open rooms where you have to try to move from cover-to-cover (like Deftech outside or Sect 2 Station). Unfortunately, most of these maps are also well-lit enough to see the spies in MT anyway. The only map that really needed an MT fix to be balanced was Schermerhorn, because you have to move across the wide space in the train room and MT inverted the darkness. Good players use their flashlight, laser, and emf vision a lot already, so it really doesn't make a difference in regards to that. As Cataclysm once said, MT whoring is the crutch of a bad merc.

Put it this way: play bank and hack the lights. Notice how MT no longer inverts the shadows because the room is pitch black. Now MT whore it up and see if you can win. Also, if you find yourself using MT a lot in digger room, think about why that is: it's certainly not because it allows you to see in the dark.

InvisibleMan999

#12
Quote from: Spekkio on May 15, 2007, 06:35:44 PM
If that's possible to program in, I'd be all for it. I'd also like an indicator on the merc's back if he's in red vision (similar to the visor) since it can detect you while he's not looking that way.
I agree about the red indicator on the merc's back. That would definitely help. I wouldn't also mind if the merc gave off some kind of sound too while in MT, like a buzzing or whatever, so that he sort of gives away if he's nearby if he wants to MT whore.

One of the other big advantages of MT over flashlight is that you're much stealthier as well. Anyone can see a merc shining his bright light around. A merc in MT is considerably less detectable. You don't see a light shine around a corner before the merc rounds the bend. So I'd definitely want to make a merc in MT announce himself a bit more.

As far as programming it in, if we can program in MT as CT does it now, I think we'd definitely be able to program in a modification to vary detection speed, as it is now, all MT does is say "If speed > x, put a box around the spy". It's not especially difficult to just add another criteria that varies based on the merc's facing. I'm thinking any engine has to have basic functions to determine the distance and angle between two objects. I mean, without determining the angle we can't even program in a spy grab.

We could also be incorporate distance into the calculation too. I'm thinking something like.

close range (within vision): any motion triggers MT, even slowest speed.
medium range (within vision): can not trigger MT by slow crouching (possibly also allow slow walk too)
Long range (within vision): Only running triggers MT.
Medium range (out of vision): Only running triggers MT.
Long range (out of vision): MT doesn't trigger at all. 


QuoteI have to tell you that when Zed discovered how to do this, I was ecstatic. However, while playing the UMP maps that have this "fix", it really doesn't fix 75% of the problem with MT: if you so much as fart from across the map, the merc is going to turn around and start shooting at you.
Yeah, which is why I propose more fixes than simply ditching the shadow inversion. Still though, getting rid of shadow inversion is definitely a positive move in my opinion and helps some of the problem. Hopefully coupled with some other fixes we can weaken MT sufficiently to get people using flashlights again.

Kurbutti

#13
^
"Hopefully coupled with some other fixes we can weaken MT sufficiently"

Wireframe? Guess that'd be too much. However, in my opinion it should be somehow annoying to use it.

scope2005

#14
Quote from: Spekkio on May 15, 2007, 06:35:44 PM
QuoteI can certainly agree with that, though I've always believed that MT should be able to lock onto only a running spy that's behind you, that would prevent aggro, while not screwing over stealth people.
If that's possible to program in, I'd be all for it. I'd also like an indicator on the merc's back if he's in red vision (similar to the visor) since it can detect you while he's not looking that way.

QuoteMT night vision, IMO shouldn't even exist. I'd like to see it work like the MT fix maps for CT where it doesn't invert shadows at all. If people want to see in the dark, they shouldn't be using MT, they should be using their flashlight.
I have to tell you that when Zed discovered how to do this, I was ecstatic. However, while playing the UMP maps that have this "fix", it really doesn't fix 75% of the problem with MT: if you so much as fart from across the map, the merc is going to turn around and start shooting at you. Also, the maps where MT whoring is most of a pain are ones with wide open rooms where you have to try to move from cover-to-cover (like Deftech outside or Sect 2 Station). Unfortunately, most of these maps are also well-lit enough to see the spies in MT anyway. The only map that really needed an MT fix to be balanced was Schermerhorn, because you have to move across the wide space in the train room and MT inverted the darkness. Good players use their flashlight, laser, and emf vision a lot already, so it really doesn't make a difference in regards to that. As Cataclysm once said, MT whoring is the crutch of a bad merc.

Put it this way: play bank and hack the lights. Notice how MT no longer inverts the shadows because the room is pitch black. Now MT whore it up and see if you can win. Also, if you find yourself using MT a lot in digger room, think about why that is: it's certainly not because it allows you to see in the dark.

I actually wouldnt mind if Motion-Tracking didnt add an overlay when enabled and looked something akin to Double Agent's "white outline" motion tracking, but not always active. If this was the case however, I would have to stand by my suggestion of disabling the sound detector when active, as there would be no real penalties for keeping it active constantly.

This way, nobody has to worry about it being used as makeshift NVG, and the merc is sufficiently penalised for over usage.