Project Stealth

Archives => Presentation Forum => Topic started by: DreadStunLock on May 12, 2011, 08:56:36 PM

Title: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 12, 2011, 08:56:36 PM
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3263/moredetail.png)





Polys: 626
Verts: 685

Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: puuusianka on May 12, 2011, 09:25:41 PM
I name it... Zed! Hi Zed!!!
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 12, 2011, 09:27:25 PM
I think Zedblade will probably kick your ass pandering for such an insult :P
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: zglina on May 12, 2011, 11:54:08 PM
No! I name it.... Maja! Hi Maja! And give me big boot to kill this worm-bastard!
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: LennardF1989 on May 13, 2011, 02:16:37 PM
You should triangulate it, most engines are not too fond of quads.

Also post front, side,top wireframes and actual render - with smooth shading -
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 13, 2011, 06:24:06 PM
ooo you made a big error modelling it.
The ONE major rule is that the polygon must NEVER has more than 4 Vertices!!!!

The problem with polygons with more than 4 Verticesis that the smoothing will give artifacts and if you want to animate it in the future it will cause a lot of problems.

You must always model regular polygon with four sides (4 vertexes)  
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 13, 2011, 11:22:45 PM
Hmmmmm, I will see what I can do, and it's Vertices Comic :) Careful with that you might get fired from a job :)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 13, 2011, 11:38:27 PM
Ok, here is another try:


Front:

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5960/fronte.png)

Left:

(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/8804/leftdy.png)

Render:

(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/7449/renderf.png)

Top:

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8480/topaw.png)

Vertices:

(http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/2172/vertices.png)


P.S: Sorry for the log spamm Frvge, Imageshack was a bit gay.

So there it is in more quanity of screenshots.

The vertices one is for Comisserg to re-explain if possible because I didn't get the 1 Polygon should not have 4 vertices ><
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: B1nArY_001 on May 14, 2011, 01:30:39 AM
You should triangulate it, most engines are not too fond of quads.

Quads in Max are technically already triangulated, once imported into an engine if you look at the mesh post import you will see that each "quad" has been bisected forming 2 triangles.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: Farley4Fan on May 14, 2011, 05:06:57 AM
Render pic=(http://th280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/oldspice2451/th_icwutudidthar.jpg)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 14, 2011, 12:19:33 PM
Hahaha :D I just think I should have added Meshsmooth or Turbo to the model, cause it looks really crappy, and a bit better on the perspective non rendered view :/
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 14, 2011, 12:34:44 PM
hahah my mistake :) thx for saying it yo me :D
here is what is not good and how it should be
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/638/notgoodh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/notgoodh.jpg/)
Possible solution:
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/681/better1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/better1.jpg/)
or even better so:
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1332/better2c.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/8/better2c.jpg/)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 14, 2011, 12:52:25 PM
The blue lines are edges right?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: LennardF1989 on May 14, 2011, 01:33:10 PM
Yes, your model has more than 4 vertices (or blue point, for the sake of it - first screenshot) per quad (the white lines connecting the vertices).

Due to this, you cant even call it a quad, because obviously a quad has only four points. For the very same reason I said you should prevent using quads, because you can easily fix/spot errors this way - and the engine limitation is no joke. Actually, if you were to import this model into UDK, it would most likely explode - the model, that is, because you use triangles, quads and quad+ all next to eachother - it wil try to auto-triangulate and will most likely fail to do so -.

@Binary: I missed your note just untill now, I have always understood triangulating manually gives way more control than some engine doing it automatically for you.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 14, 2011, 01:38:38 PM
Hmmmm, does that mean I have to redo the whole model? Cause I have never did anything in triangles, the only thing I experienced in triangles was the geo sphere :S

And I still don't get why in the first screenshot, the edges are connected to the neck area precisely and in the other one, they are weirdly scattered :/
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: LennardF1989 on May 14, 2011, 01:41:14 PM
I'm sure 3DS Max has a tool which allows you to connect 2 points with a line.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 14, 2011, 05:33:14 PM
you can triangulate any model just do convert to editable mesh then select all edges and make invisible edegs visible.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: B1nArY_001 on May 15, 2011, 02:06:41 AM
@Binary: I missed your note just untill now, I have always understood triangulating manually gives way more control than some engine doing it automatically for you.

I'm not sure how it works in Maya but with Max you simply go into the Edge sub-object mode and you can "turn" the edges bisecting the quads so that when you import it the tris are aligned in the manner best for deformation or lighting.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: Zedblade on May 15, 2011, 04:54:50 AM
You should triangulate it, most engines are not too fond of quads.

Also post front, side,top wireframes and actual render - with smooth shading -

Triangulation is automatic on import into UDK and any other random engine. It's better to keep the the mesh in quads inside Maya/3dMax as it's cleaner, easier to modify and so on.

or even better so:
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1332/better2c.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/8/better2c.jpg/)

Don't do it this way. T-Junctions are one of the worst things you can have on a mesh. Your first example is a good way to do it. Or you can creat edge loops like this:
 

(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/638/notgoodh.jpg)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 11:45:08 AM
How do you guys know where to create an edge and where not to? Like the one you have Zed, looks quite complex and same as Comissergs it's also quite complex, how do you know you need all those lines instead of just a quad?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 15, 2011, 12:04:38 PM
It's just practice man. If you makes a lot of complicated models and use advanced smoothing you noticed that some polygons make artifacts after smoothing. It's just a regular rule that every polygon should have 4 vertices for the best result.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 12:26:14 PM
But my polygons do have 4 vertices?

o------------------------------o--------------------------------- o
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
o------------------------------o----------------------------------o

o = Vertex

So if that has 6 vertices and you say every polygon needs 4, where do I insert other2?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: Zedblade on May 15, 2011, 01:20:22 PM
But my polygons do have 4 vertices?

o------------------------------o--------------------------------- o
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
|                                       |                                             |
o------------------------------o----------------------------------o

o = Vertex

So if that has 6 vertices and you say every polygon needs 4, where do I insert other2?


... the two in the middle you count twice since they are part of both quads.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 01:31:08 PM
So how come you guys mention I need to have 4 vertices per polygon if that's countable twice? I always have 4 vertices then? Or I missed a picture? Cause on the screenshots where I circled the vertices, every of those squares has a vertex in the corner?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 15, 2011, 01:33:28 PM
hahah my mistake :) thx for saying it yo me :D
here is what is not good and how it should be
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/638/notgoodh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/notgoodh.jpg/)
Possible solution:
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/681/better1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/better1.jpg/)
or even better so:
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1332/better2c.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/8/better2c.jpg/)

the first picture I posted before shows that you have more than 4 vertices in a polygon
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: Zedblade on May 15, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
So how come you guys mention I need to have 4 vertices per polygon if that's countable twice? I always have 4 vertices then? Or I missed a picture? Cause on the screenshots where I circled the vertices, every of those squares has a vertex in the corner?

The polygon in the picture with the square around it has 7 vertices.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 01:47:36 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Now I see it, I see what you did there :D <-----(Cronky x))


I'll get on with it :D


Thank you:

Lennard
Binary
Zed
Comisserg
Maybe Frvge

Just kidding Fridge.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: LennardF1989 on May 15, 2011, 01:49:02 PM
To illustrate, the black circles are all vertices part of the same "quad". By adding the blue lines, each will have 3 or 4 vertices, instead of 7.

(http://i53.tinypic.com/smugxk.png)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 01:54:47 PM
You guys are brilliant <3
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 15, 2011, 01:59:09 PM
np :) we are here to help :D
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 02:00:19 PM
Speaking of help, where is my Animation tutorial  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(


Just kidding, take your time :P
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 15, 2011, 03:17:53 PM
yea sry it's due to my internship I almost don't have any free time :S
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 03:22:22 PM
Dude, Study > Friends.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: LennardF1989 on May 15, 2011, 04:18:15 PM
Tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3n0vBcW5fc):
- Add a few bones to your mesh
- Select each bone and use the paint tool to control which polygons the selected bone controls
- Create a keyframe animation
- Press the loop button
- Press the play button
...
- PROFIT!?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 15, 2011, 10:45:40 PM
I am thinking of adding him some demonic wings, I think that would be quite funkeh.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 16, 2011, 02:51:21 PM
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2255/renderfix.jpg)



So I made another one, fixed the edges and vertices this is rendered by the way without any modifiers.




Though it looks quite ugly? Also I don't know what is your opinion, but I don't really want to believe that organic forms especially like worms who are all squishy and stretchy should be symmetrical? So I only used a maximised "Perspective" viewport and just modelled away kind of?

Also, how come the polygons are all lighted up so strangely?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: LennardF1989 on May 16, 2011, 03:29:54 PM
You can apply a Smooth modifier - in Maya I press Numpad 3 for that - or you can add more polygons to make it more high-res. You can manually smooth out the eyes by adding some edge loops.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 16, 2011, 03:44:15 PM
(http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/4974/smooooth.jpg)


oO
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 16, 2011, 04:22:22 PM
according to me, you have polygons with more than 4 vertices under the eyes of the worm
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 16, 2011, 04:26:01 PM
Freaking X-ray vision ¬.¬


Edit: Working on the fix now, making sure that the every guy has got 4 playboy girls in his corner.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFL55bjLiW8             <-------------------
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 16, 2011, 07:16:42 PM
hahahaah :D np
but it's too fast to see every poly :D
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 16, 2011, 07:56:26 PM
Uuuuurrrrghhh  >:(

Fine, give me another 5 minutes....Comicsserg.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 17, 2011, 12:46:12 AM
Just while topic is alive and before I post the video:

A small question, while I was doing modelling and drawing it's all good and fun and really enjoyable, but I get bored halfway through because I always think it takes too long, and because of the goddamn speed videos it just puts me off.

So a question to all of you.

Now I know the 3D models of the Spy and the Mercenary took around 400 hours to make each.

What about:

Animation, Comicsserg how long does it take to make a standard animation? Of "Project Stealth" quality?

Modelling, Binary how long does it take to make props like the grenade and the mine?

Programming, Morten and Lennard how long does it take to make a basic standard required script that matches the quality of Project Stealth game?

Environment, Zedblade how long does it take to create a decent standard level or a prop or a field?

Estimates, just an estimate so I can get on the track correctly.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 17, 2011, 04:45:18 PM
the animation can take a lot of your time especially if you try to make it decent.
Sometimes while making some other animation (not for PS but for another project) it takes me weeks and sometimes even month.

However the regular animation like reload and run or melee takes a few days to make and again a few days to polish etc

It is also very important that the rig that you are animating is done very good otherwise the animating process becomes a hell.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 17, 2011, 05:26:23 PM
Yeah, especially on 3DS max, you have to get the biped as close to your character in size and shape as possible, otherwise when you move his body parts, it looks like he is made out of the rubber ><
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 17, 2011, 06:17:40 PM
I don't animat ein 3Ds max anymore

MAYA is way better than max in animation and rigging
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 17, 2011, 06:22:04 PM
Doesn't seem logical to change to MAYA for me, they are both from the same company so they can't be that different, I mean MAX has to have a bigger strength over MAYA....doesn't it?



Speaking of which, I remember talking to Frvge and I wanted to try apply as a Concept Artist, well that Idea died since the pen tablet took way too long to learn so I gave it ago again:


(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5652/dsadasdasdasd.jpg)



Obviously this is not me applying but just interested what do devs think.

Image is 5000x3200 up from 800x600 was it?

Link: http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5652/dsadasdasdasd.jpg
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: Farley4Fan on May 17, 2011, 09:03:13 PM
A little large, dread.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 17, 2011, 09:04:39 PM
I provided a link specifically for that, I was just a bit worried that the Imageshack wouldn't show it as 5k by 3k, but hey the bigger the better. You can't go wrong with that.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 17, 2011, 09:12:03 PM
you are totally wrong about maya and max

Autodesk just bought the Maya for a lot of money a couple of years ago, and the interface and everything about maya is still like it was earlier and it's totally different from max. Actually everybody will say you that MAYA is way better in animation and rigging than max. Max will never be as good as Maya in animation :)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 17, 2011, 09:13:25 PM
So, what's better in MAX than Maya? There has to be something?
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 17, 2011, 09:37:03 PM
hahahaah :D np
but it's too fast to see every poly :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSoXiHzQXgo


Here you go, as promised.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 18, 2011, 04:40:56 PM
I see polygons with more than 4 vertices inside his mouth and also on his head behind the eyes and also in the bottom view (2:08)
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 18, 2011, 05:45:19 PM
Yeap cleaning as I go :)


By the way, will the light go normal once I fix all the polygons and vertices? Cause on the back neck area, some polygons have weird lightning, like one polygon doesn't have shadows, and the other next to it does :/
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 18, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
it's probably the normal/smoothing group

just select all polygons and go to smoothing groups and add all polygons to one group. However it doesn't matter because you still will be smoothing it with a turbo smooth modyfier or something else.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 19, 2011, 11:55:13 PM
Oh yeah, I will see that it shall be as you say.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 22, 2011, 11:50:58 PM
Comicsserg or anyone in here that has experience.


Could you state some of the personal reasons what differences and why are they are pretty major in the industry that 3ds and Maya has over each other?

Just state something like 2 reasons why Maya is good and bad.

And same for  3ds? Cause I am really thinking which is better and why. But I need some personal stuff just to see. Thanks.
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: B1nArY_001 on May 23, 2011, 09:23:21 AM
They both provide the same functionality, Maya does offer a more streamlined animation tool set but if you follow the industry via magazines like 3D World you'll notice that among the top people in the field it's a pretty even split on who uses what. Most people at that level are fairly proficient in both. It seems to be a personal preference in UI style and also availability for plugins geared towards your particular task that determines which to use. A lot of people feel that Maya has a very streamlined and easy to use UI and find Max's UI to be cluttered and confusing. I personally love the Max Roll-out system and detest Maya's Hotbar. You will also find a lot of people in favor of Maya simply because Max wasn't as accessible for many years while Maya provided the Personal Learning Edition making it very easy for people to pick it up and start learning giving it a significant boost in popularity. Good PR for the win I guess!
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: DreadStunLock on May 23, 2011, 10:24:18 AM
Hmmm, well I kind of really like Max because of:

A) It's equivalent to Maya in most Companies, AKA for me that's Blizzard.

B) Cause movies like Shrek were created on it.

C) Cause I feel hardcore when my friends say "Wtf" is this thing, and I am like, yeah that's the shizz that makes this shizz go wild!
Title: Re: Alien Worm
Post by: comicsserg on May 24, 2011, 09:49:40 AM
the films/games made with maya:
Almost all PIXAR films, Pirates Of the Carribean, Mortal Kombat 9, Tomb Raider, EA sports, Halo, Prince of Persia, God of War, Spider man 3, Killzone, Final Fantasy, Avatar etc

btw Shrek made with maya too

PS: There is no good or bad, maya and max are both great products and film/game companies usually use both of them, however everyone who made animation (for professional products) uses maya for animation because of the control it gives you