Phosphorous Nades Properties !!111!1

[Gawain]

ph. nades similar to the ones in pt have been in discussion as a replacement for flares for a long time. now vega suggested to implement spekkio's idea of a slow down tool into ph. nades. this sounds like the current best suggestion for a new gadget, so i consider it worth it's own thread.

my current idea of perfect ph. nades is this:

-triggered by timer (=frag timer), but instant explosion when hitting the spy
-not distinguishable from frag  nades until explosion
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud (radius slightely bigger than smoke nade radius) that stays for about 18s
-speed of spy running through dust reduced to merc's running speed and diving or jumping is also impossible (slow-down effect only working while being in the dust)
-spy has the unremovable dark-green dust on him that glows bright on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 ph footsteps (allows the use of ph nades as a weaker form of spy traps)
-ph dust also slows down mercs (not using mask) and let them leave footsteps

i'll update this post regularily with any well-founded feedback.

[Farley4Fan]

The cloud stays too long, lower it to 8s and your golden.  I'm still iffy on the slowing aspect.  While it may make it useful, it would make it incredibly annoying for spies.  Especially if it stays for over 10 seconds and completely blocks a doorway or chokepoint.

[0ctin]

The cloud stays too long, lower it to 8s and your golden.  I'm still iffy on the slowing aspect.  While it may make it useful, it would make it incredibly annoying for spies.  Especially if it stays for over 10 seconds and completely blocks a doorway or chokepoint.

I agree, that would p*iss me off too.

[Westfall]

Really though, it doesn't need to show on emf. I already posted why in the other thread. Its more than the nade calls for.

Edit (ripped from other thread):

The phos nade already leaves glowing shit. That is the sense of exposure. Its not an electrically stimulated material. If hes glowing already....y do u need him to light up in emf? This doesn't even pertain to emf ghosting. Phos nade does not equal spy bullet. Its a green substance that sticks to the spy, glows, and leaves a trail. NOW it will be able to slow the spy down or possibly cause damage due to the exposure of the gas portion of the nade once its detonated. There isn't a need for it to show on emf. It will show well enough in regular vision. Mercs don't need the advantage of being able to see the spy through a ceiling because he got slimed.

[InvisibleMan999]

-ph dust also slows down mercs (not using mask) and let them leave footsteps

Dont' do that. That defeats the whole purpose of slowing down the spy.

[Farley4Fan]

No, because it's only if he's not using mask.  Spies don't have masks so they have no way to counter it.  Mercs would just have to be smart about where/when they use it and how much fuel they have left in their gas mask.  Making a spy go towards the merc would be another prime use of it.  Block 1 exit point and cover the other one.  The merc wouldn't even have to go through the dust.  But this is where the REAL problem arises. 

The problem really is how overpowering it would be to completely take away the spies only advantage over the merc instantly AND have all those other side effects.  Omg I would hate that so much as a spy.  The real reason you can escape from mercs is your speed and agility, your ss is just an added bonus.  Basically you can gain 5-10 feet from the merc by stunning him, but then he is on your ass and stays on your ass.  You wouldn't be able to escape.

EMF lighting up spies is just overkill.  I do think that the effects should be proportional to how close the spy is to the center of the cloud and how long he stays in it.  For example if the spy just goes around it and touches the edges of the cloud he would only leave a few footprints and be slowed down by only 5-10%.  If the spy stays in the center of the cloud for a given amount of time he would be slowed down by much more and leave more footprints.  That way the spy could just counter it by rolling through it or avoing the cloud and the mercs would have to use them wisely.

[Daybreak]

I'm confused, are we saying the spy is still slow after leaving the phophors gased area? That is harsh. Why not make it big enough that he can't completely dive through it, much like a smoke grenade for Mercs. They can charge through half but then get caught.

Once a spy is out of the smoke, he shouldn't be slowed after wards. the spy then can continue running away, but he shows up on EMF. The merc was trying to slow the spy down and didn't at least now he shows up on EMF. If the merc had used a grenade the spy would be dead or he missed and completely alive. The slownade, gives the spy a chance to live, and the merc the chance to kill.

Slownade properties:
-triggerd when hitting a spy (much like a smokenade. The merc can toss it for a fleeing spy, or if shot directly at him slow him instantly.)
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
-speed of spy running through dust is reduced to merc's running speed and diving or jumping is also impossible AS LONG AS HE'S WITHIN THE RADIUS OF THE CLOUD.
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps

edit: The spy is penalized greatly for being within the cloud but has the chance to escape with his life. A grenade would have killed him. He should be so lucky, to only have to escape with being on EMF for a bit. Instead of an all or nothing gadget like the grenade. There's the choice of balance.

Spy:
Lives and hides for a bit.

Merc:
slows the spy down, and can track the hiding spy.

PS. I don't know about you guys, but I can't keep up to fleeing spies. Maybe I have a different version.

[Wanted_David]

-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
[...]
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps

that could be used to ambush spies more easly. think of the possibilities: you (merc) shoot a ph nade to the ground creating a smoke wall, which if placed in the right place, would create a situation where the spy had few choices left, being those:
-running through the wall and break the line of sight, leaving his footprints behind, making it easier for the merc to find him;
-wait until the smoke wall wears out, which is not the best idea, since he becomes a "sitting duck"...
-find another escape route which doesn't imply any of the strategies mentioned above. this is the safest strategy.... *bling!* :P

[Gawain]

daybreak: the slow down effect should only work while in the dust, of course. i'll clarify it in the head post.

papa, here's a lesson suggestion just for you: grab a friend and go in a long open area like main hall or some corridor. now taze the merc and dive-run while your friend tries to shoot. the moment you hear the first shot you freeze. you gonna be surprised how far you can run in this time. even if he drops a ph nade in your escape route before you get away, it will only slow down you marginally in an area of like 8m or whatever twice the radius is.
slowing down the spy to the speed of the merc can also hardly be called "blocking".

[Daybreak]

-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
[...]
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps

that could be used to ambush spies more easly. think of the possibilities: you (merc) shoot a ph nade to the ground creating a smoke wall, which if placed in the right place, would create a situation where the spy had few choices left, being those:
-running through the wall and break the line of sight, leaving his footprints behind, making it easier for the merc to find him;
-wait until the smoke wall wears out, which is not the best idea, since he becomes a "sitting duck"...
-find another escape route which doesn't imply any of the strategies mentioned above. this is the safest strategy.... *bling!* :P

That's all part of strategy on the mercs part. That shows a good example of how to use this new weapon. If we created a heartbeat sensor for spies, it'd seem way over powered. Used correctly it's a great tool. Used poorly well, it takes up a slot and is practically useless.

It's been discussed many times that a new gadget needs to be created to change possible loadouts from the standard, grenade, mine load out. I think it's this new slownade. After some fine tunning this can be an excellent gadget.

[Farley4Fan]

daybreak: the slow down effect should only work while in the dust, of course. i'll clarify it in the head post.

papa, here's a lesson suggestion just for you: grab a friend and go in a long open area like main hall or some corridor. now taze the merc and dive-run while your friend tries to shoot. the moment you hear the first shot you freeze. you gonna be surprised how far you can run in this time. even if he drops a ph nade in your escape route before you get away, it will only slow down you marginally in an area of like 8m or whatever twice the radius is.
slowing down the spy to the speed of the merc can also hardly be called "blocking".

I was thinking that the slow down effect would happen even after you leave the dust cloud.  That wouldn't be good.

[Spekkio]

I forget how long the gas cloud lasts in PT, but Ph. nades in PS should be along those lines. I think it was 8 or 12 sec, can't remember though.

If it's going to have a slow effect, ph nades should burst on contact with spies if it's a direct hit or have a timer if it doesn't like spy smoke grenades. This is not like frag grenades because an insta-hit won't kill you. Spies should be able to roll and jump, it would just be at the merc's run speed instead of full out getaway speed. Hell, if you have 4 variable speeds in PS, then the grenade can slow by 1 notch.

Ph. nades should retain the EMF glowing. Footsteps need to be seen in EMF. You could barely notice a spy hit with Ph. nades in PT in normal vision, so it should be kept that way.

Basically, frags would be for outright killing but Ph. nades would be for tracking and chasing.

[Farley4Fan]

This is not like frag grenades because an insta-hit won't kill you.

Umm, an insta hit will get you killed though.  If you can't run faster than mercs you can't get away very easily, even with a ss and nades.  You can't gain ground between you and the merc other than the point of which you shock/nade him.  The phosphorous nades SHOULD be on a timer because otherwise you instantly take away the spies biggest advantage, and that's lame and annoying for spies.  Overpowered.

The rest I agree on Spekkio.

[Daybreak]

So... new gadget properties

Slownade
-standard time to explosion (allow for a bank shot or lob)
-instantly triggerd when hitting a spy (much like a smokenade. The merc can toss it for a fleeing spy, or if shot directly at him slow him instantly.)
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
-speed of spy running through dust is reduced to merc's running speed. Diving or jumping is also at merc spedd when the spy is within the phs. cloud radius
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s (similar to that in PT)
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps (similar to that in PT)

I really don't understand what papa skull is saying in his last post. An instant hit by a grenade does not equal death unles you aren't moving. That's just 'cause you can't get up and run in time. Your last statement is the only one i understand
"The phosphorous nades SHOULD be on a timer because otherwise you instantly take away the spies biggest advantage, and that's lame and annoying for spies.  Overpowered"
That's what a phosphorous nade is for a fleeing spy. You do it so atleast when he's getting away, you might be able to track him. Other wise, you should have tossed a well timed grenade and killed the bastard when you had the chance. It's not over powered, in my eyes, it seems pretty balanced.

[Farley4Fan]

Well it would almost mean a death every time.  It's what I'm guessing.  Why do spies currently get away?  Because they are faster, more agile, and have ss as an added bonus.  With an instant phophorous nade you take away their biggest advantage and tool they have for escaping instantly.  It's gone.  How the hell are they supposed to gain ground between themselves and the merc if they move at the same speed?  It would be an easy pursuit for the mercs and that means an easy kill.  Atleast if the thing is on a timer they have a chance to avoid it and counter it.