Back in time to get the facts. Pt .Phosphorus Etc.. Merc/Spy

[Gawain]

ph nades (with the properties i suggested) would help against aggro: they slow down the spy which gives you more time to shoot at him or run after him and allow you to track him easily with emf through smoke. he also has to run away from the nade as it could be a frag, and after it turns out to be a ph nade the dust cloud stays there while the frag effect only lasts for a split second. it's not that 100% aggro is working (100% stealth isn't working either), on some point you gotta hide. 100% aggro is only possible on a map with lots of safe zones or with host advantage on a laggy server or when you are clearly superior to the opponents.

[Cyntrox]

As for Cyntrox, you can talk about "But it has a longer range in CT"... but are we not discussing what we should implent to PS here? Or are we discussing CT? PS is the focus here.

1) It's not a matter of CT or PS, if the poison mine in PS is to resemble the one in CT in any way what so ever, it has to have longer range. Taking away the longer range is like taking away the rifle's ability to shoot - it is the main use. Don't try to trivialize that.
2) frvge already confirmed that poison mine has longer range. Therefore, I see no reason to doubt that it will be that way in PS.
3) The poison mine model has already been made as far as I remember. That is, if nothing more, a extremely strong indication that the mine will be in PS.

[frvge]

Think of the laser-vs-poison like:
doorways and narrow corridors/rooms (max distance approx twice the length of the Spy?): laser
longer distances (like 5-6 times the range of laser): poison

So a bit like they should be used already...

[VaNilla]

I know what you mean Cyntrox, but you have mis-understood me. Im saying it's pointless bring up shortcomings to a device that are secondary properties of it when deciding what gadgets to include in PS, because they are going to be toyed with to our satisfaction anyway. The primary properties of a gadget are the ideas we decide to implent.

Poison mines are delayed, uncertain death. Laser mines are certain death, and that's what im building my opinion upon. Im not saying a poison mine shouldn't have longer range and stuff anyway, all im saying is that these properties are useless discussing when deciding on gadgets to include, that's for when we decide how to improve these gadgets. That's not what im trying to do.

As for the Phoso grenades subject again, I still fully disagree, frags slow down a spy, you run away from a grenade because it could be a frag which leads to your death. Thats like saying you run away from bullets because they are going to penetrate your body, those are inevitable. If you run away from something you have a chance of escpaing it's range, and you also have a chance of being submerged in it.

Frag grenade in range = Almost certain death.
Phoso grenade in range = I r liek Hulk! Can be seen in the dark and leave footprints but what kinda of person walks around in the open when they've just been dyed green, unless he wants to obliviate everything in his path anyway in which case it doesn't matter, much like an aggro spy.

1 - 0 to Frag.
                       
Frag grenade out of range = Pushes a spy away.
Phoso grenade out of range = A green cloud of dust puffs out of a magical little container. Much like a tree, we can run around this small obstacle simply and it poses no sinister threat making this area fairly safe, which you can use to your advantage by hiding in, as your time as the hulk will run out just as quickly as the gas cloud deterioates.

2 - 0 to Frag.

Also I know the poison model has been confirmed, and it's a great looking gadget. But as much as I like it, I dont see it's benefit. Edit - Just seen your comment Frvge, although your information is correct theres this issue again, why not just make the laser mine have a longer distance, that would be my decision. Although now I think about it, theres a certain level of choice people want to have and maybe you want to balance things so in longer distances you have a compromise, in which case now I consider the situation with a fuller understanding... maybe the poison mine isn't such a bad idea after all, yeah you might aswell include that actually. *Puts on Dunce Hat* :D.

Moving back to Phosophone grenades, I never talked about an 100% Aggro/Stealth approach. You have a balance of the elements you use. I discussed how in general a stealthy spy would "Never after trying so hard to be stealthy not notice a big flourescent cloud of gas around a corner". I also spoke of how an Aggro spy may, but im talking about two different things and just like you pointed out, most people are balanced towards one style more than another, and thats the balance you have to consider when creating gadgets. In both cases (Aggro and Stealth) the Phosophone grenade proves to be completely useless.

[Cyntrox]

I know what you mean Cyntrox, but you have mis-understood me. Im saying it's pointless bring up shortcomings to a device that are secondary properties of it when deciding what gadgets to include in PS, because they are going to be toyed with to our satisfaction anyway. The primary properties of a gadget are the ideas we decide to implent.

Poison mines are delayed, uncertain death. Laser mines are certain death, and that's what im building my opinion upon. Im not saying a poison mine shouldn't have longer range and stuff anyway, all im saying is that these properties are useless discussing when deciding on gadgets to include, that's for when we decide how to improve these gadgets. That's not what im trying to do.

A laser mine is not certain death if the spy is too far away from it.

And how is range a secondary property?

[VaNilla]

Well primary properties are the idea of the whole device itself.

Laser Mine:

Trip-activated mine. (Laser, can be seen in Thermal Vison).
Almost certain death to any human tripping the mine.
Works at fairly long distances.

Poison Mine:

Trip-activated mine. (Laser, can be seen in Thermal Vison).
Poisons any human tripping the mining. (Can be healed using a Partner or Health Kit).
Works at fairly long distances.

These primary properties are what we look at when deciding what gadgets to include, which is the stronger mine? Laser.

[frvge]

You seem to miss the point that laser's range is like 5 meters (deadly in like... 2.5 meters range, hurt in the final 2.5 meters).
A poison is always a hit, up to 30 meters (6 times the lasers maximal area of effect). Downside is that the Spy can heal himself.

Making up the numbers on the spot, but you get the idea.

[Farley4Fan]

I do agree the poison should be removed though, how could you possibly in your right mind really want to use it. It's a weak Laser Mine, the laser mine, you run through the laser and BAM your dead and the Mercs are at an advantage. The Poison mine is exactly the same! Only it sets off a little puff of gas and give you an extra 10 second to live! Best part is you can still survive by healing yourself... it's fucking retarded, just use a laser and he's dead straight away, that's all there is to it.

Wrong.  So wrong.  A laser mine can kill you from only a few meters (if that) away.  A poison on the other hand, can kill you from over 10 meters, even though it takes longer.  Understand?

I would also scrap the Spy Detector shitty gadget in CT (The Plantable Radar) because that seriously is fucking useless, nobody would choose that over a spy trap in their right mind. Reason is the plantable radar, if you set it off, it only sends a signal from it's position, spy trap has all the same properties except it plants the radar on YOU, the only upside with a plantable radar is you can't remove it from your friend, but you can just remove it from where it has been placed and once it has been set off, that is blatantly obvious.
Also wrong.  Putting one by a laptop is a good strategy because it does:
1) Usually scare the spy away from the terminal.
2) Sends the spy in a panic, easy kill most of the time.
3) Lets you know he's around there.
A spy trap, while still useful in its own right, has a pretty limited use.  They have to trip the laser and they are MUCH easier to see, even out of visions.

How long exactly have you been playing SvM?  Sorry if that comes across as offensive or rude, I don't mean to be either.  But it seems like you don't understand some of the main mechanics of the merc gadgets.  Seriously, I don't mean to be offensive but I'm just curious.

[Aj]

If that is stone that you quoted, then a hell of a lot longer than you.  He was the leader of the UMP project!

[Ion.67]

If that is stone that you quoted, then a hell of a lot longer than you.  He was the leader of the UMP project!

Thought that was scope.

[Aj]

My bad.

Stone, scope, kinda similar. :-p

He's still been playing since the PT days, I believe.

[Gawain]

stonecoldkilla: what you don't get is that the dust cloud won't be small "like a tree" and that even stealthy spies are forced to give away their position by hacking objectives etc and they gotta flee when a merc is coming. ph nades are not meant to replace frags or traps, but to help tagging and slowing down a fleeing spy. if you actually played the game, you would also know that frags don't kill good players that often (except insta frags, tricky bounced or unheard frags due to soundloss/no eax/noise).

frvge: i'm still not convinced that poison mines add to the gameplay. i have several reasons:
-the trigger mechanism (and the range) works exactly like spy traps
-if poison mines get more deadly we have no idea what it will do to the gameplay because they aren't exactly deadly in ct
-poison mines are only strong in places you can't jump over (they are really easy to see flipping on tv every once in a while); in that places, they are op because of the big range (same problem with traps)
-mines already belong to the strong gadget category because they kill, no need to give the merc 3 choices instead of 2 (just remember how well mines worked in pt (except no number limit))
it would be nice if you could actually consider these points and not just state something naive like <it has it's uses and gives the player more choice so it's good for the gameplay>

[VaNilla]

Papa your curiosity, don't worry mate im not going to get offended I'm just trying to help :P.

Now to start off simple let me explain my experience, I played PT all the way through on PS2 and became one of the best players in the PS2 Community, although while not trying to be offensive, that's not saying much :P. Played CT for a bit on PS2 then moved to PC where, I had played very badly for over a year, made the worst name for myself possible by releasing shitty vid after shitty video and then UBI Banned me because people complained about my videos (not a good choice on their part to ban me but there you go).

This is were I am now, 2 years on I've started playing again and I feel although im not of a very high standard just yet, I vastly more knowledgable and aware of the game mechanics.

But this is all just talk, why do I stand by my points?

"Wrong.  So wrong.  A laser mine can kill you from only a few meters (if that) away.  A poison on the other hand, can kill you from over 10 meters, even though it takes longer.  Understand?"

Yes, but this is why posts should be fully analysed because if you don't, you wont understand my conclusion. You could use that argument if I hadn't said later I am not here to talk numbers. I am here to talk ideas and the ideas that should be included are the ones that are going to have the most use in Project Stealth. Also if you read further on, I take into account that if we balance distances of the mines accountability like CT has, then maybe Poison Mines have their use.

I left this paragraph in because I wanted people to see the bigger picture, this is why you can't just skim through what someone has said, Skull :P.

"Also wrong.  Putting one (Spy Detector) by a laptop is a good strategy because it does:
1) Usually scare the spy away from the terminal.
2) Sends the spy in a panic, easy kill most of the time.
3) Lets you know he's around there.
A spy trap, while still useful in its own right, has a pretty limited use.  They have to trip the laser and they are MUCH easier to see, even out of visions."

This one, hmmm :P. Now that I take into account extra facts I have learned about this gadget, again I could be wrong, around certain control points of a map (Keypads, Doors, Laptop, Cooperative positions) this could be useful. As for some of your points though, a spy trap does all of these things when tripped, and a Spy Detector can be seen pretty much as easily as a spy trap in my experiences of the game (Fairly long, as explained above, although I only play games occassionally nowadays). Also, hacking the thing itself alerts the merc to your presense, and although in theory your point about the detector scaring off the spies is correct... I beleive after a few weeks people would learn to just hack anyway, you have nothing to lose, it's done the same job you would have done by pressing the 'Use' button anyway so who gives? Key points are the only places Spy Detectors have much use though, and a Spy Trap has uses over much larger scales. But again, the question is choice and for that reason, I guess Presence Detectors are a fairly good choice and, you have me done and dusted on that subject :D.

Okay now that Rambo has posted, a tree was what I found to be a fairly humourous way of expressing my opinion of just the kind of threat a Phosophone grenade really is, I thought that was obvious. Over a whole map, a Dust Cloud has to be one of the least threatening obstacles to avoid, a small priority, giving the illusion, and the solid fact it's a small factor to the games stage. But if a spy is hacking an object, or as you rather descriptively put it, "etc.", there is never, ever a situation where Phosophone grenades have any advantagous use whatsoever. If a spy is hacking, nade him, he has about a 35/100 chance of escaping. He's escaping through a vent, yeah lets Phosophone the guy where I cant see him! Oh umm, I coulda just killed that guy with a frag... He's running to the objective lets phosophone him when I know fully well where he is going! Oh umm, I coulda just killed that guy with a frag... your respone to this is probably "But meyhbeh it will be scarwee and the spy is gona runz to the venty hole plex?" a frag grenade is a much more threatening, sinister object that will do the same job and possibly kill/injure the spy in the process. - That was an exeggeration of your writing but we are getting into the post now, an inside joke might lighten the mood a bit, im not purposely insulting you don't fret :P.

I never said PH nades are meant to replace frags or traps (Mines, I assume seeing as that's what I actually said), but that's what you seem to imply, the way you approach this is "Phosophones does all of this, but if you actually played the game, you would also know that frags don't kill good players that often". So should I take Phosophones instead? Hell no! How many times playing PT (oh wait, I think im showing I actually DO play the game...) have you seen a Phosophone grenade used to any avail? None? Thought so. Why? They suck fucking ass and that is all there is to it.

How many frags have you seen be used, killing players, clearing rooms, pushing spys from places that once were a safe zone? I don't have any statistics but I can assume every person who has ever played CT or even PT, has had atleast one kill with a frag, even against a good player, tally that up against how many Phosophones have helped a guy with his game plan :). We want to help new players and every player settle into the game, not confuse them further by fucking things up with the worst gadget invented for the game.

[InvisibleMan999]

These primary properties are what we look at when deciding what gadgets to include, which is the stronger mine? Laser.

Then why is laser the least used mine in the game?

[VaNilla]

I completely disagree with that point. Regardless, sum up those facts and the laser comes out on top, have a difference of opinion? Fine but at the present I see the advantages being with the laser mine, but PLEASE stop being pedantic (not just you, anyone who's replying to this thread in general) because if you read what I say, I eventually came to the conclusion the Poision Mine is a good addition, jesus christ :P.