Ammo for Spies?

[Spekkio]

Getting the tank disk may sound like a great idea, but if the mercs have someone guarding tech and greek early, it's all but impossible. Basically the only way you're getting that is pure aggro.

It's even more impossible when no merc is bothering with the Greek side of the map. If you get Greek first, one merc stands in the little corridor right in front of tank disk. The other merc stands in the other corridor leading from tech to pirate. From there, both can cover pirates, pinch tech, or cover the office disk with only moving a total of like 3 meters.

[InvisibleMan999]

Getting the tank disk may sound like a great idea, but if the mercs have someone guarding tech and greek early, it's all but impossible. Basically the only way you're getting that is pure aggro.

It's even more impossible when no merc is bothering with the Greek side of the map. If you get Greek first, one merc stands in the little corridor right in front of tank disk. The other merc stands in the other corridor leading from tech to pirate. From there, both can cover pirates, pinch tech, or cover the office disk with only moving a total of like 3 meters.

Nobody is saying it's easy. Aqua is a merc map, there's no doubt about it. Still, there are a number of things you can do.

First of all, the office disk is no doubt completely unguarded, going for that forces the mercs to somewhat expand their defenses, and may leave the tank disk or the tech unguarded and bombable. The tech room is also a fairly decent spot to set up sticky cams as the mercs come through those corridors.

But still it ain't easy, no matter what order you get the objectives in. Regardless of order, against good mercs, you're going to have to go solid aggro at one point or another, because stealth just doesn't cut it. I tend to prefer having greek open because I can run around the level better.

[Gawain]

you don't get it...
if the mercs are camping at the right spots spekkio mentioned, all you can get is the office disk (with great aggro teamwork). Good mercs won't leave their central position too far   ;)

[InvisibleMan999]

you don't get it...
if the mercs are camping at the right spots spekkio mentioned, all you can get is the office disk (with great aggro teamwork). Good mercs won't leave their central position too far   ;)

That's true. The thing is that using Spekkio's strategies, the situation isn't much better. Going for the tank disk first? I mean great... how you going to do that? One merc is sitting in tech waiting for you to drop down, and the other is camping greek. Yeah, good luck getting the fish tank without any aggro.

Keep in mind that regardless of what order you get objectives mercs can always decide to just "give up" an objective. So the mercs can just execute spekkio's plan regardless of if you've captured greek or not. If his merc strategy is truly unbeatable then mercs will pretend greek doesn't exist and just sit in the two adjoining corridors like he wants them to, in which case it won't even matter what order you get the objectives.

[Gawain]

that's the reason why i think hacking objectives to 99% is crap. a good merc will never ever cover this any more, and you waste time going back to finish the hacking...

[InvisibleMan999]

that's the reason why i think hacking objectives to 99% is crap. a good merc will never ever cover this any more, and you waste time going back to finish the hacking...

It is crap, as are most hacking order plans. The fact that certain objectives exist doesn't mean that the mercs will protect them all.

One thing I actually like about DA is that the objectives stay constant so mercs can't simply give up objectives entirely as they can in CT.

[Gawain]

One thing I actually like about DA is that the objectives stay constant so mercs can't simply give up objectives entirely as they can in CT.

I dislike it. It takes out too much strategy.

[InvisibleMan999]

One thing I actually like about DA is that the objectives stay constant so mercs can't simply give up objectives entirely as they can in CT.

I dislike it. It takes out too much strategy.

Well, it can be a bad thing in that it tends to make maps less interesting because spies can keep going back to their favorite hack points. It also may not even be implementable in CT due to the comparative hacking method, so I'm not really even saying we should do that in this game.

Still though, I like the idea of forcing the mercs to patrol an area as opposed to being able to camp one spot, which is fairly common in most of the smaller maps.

The hallmarks of a stealth spy are being able to hit objectives that aren't protected well and going to where the merc isn't watching. If there aren't enough objectives to do that, you really are just left with aggro as your only alternative. The best example is museum where you've got the disc and the two cafes. The two mercs can just patrol the cafe and your only way past them is straight aggro.

The best way to fix that may just be better map design, but I'm not sure.

[Gawain]

it is better map design. factory and orph (except the attic) are the best examples how to design a great map. but for my taste, both got too much vents, and maybe camnet/security on factory is too prevalent + it's a sniper paradise (goodkebap reminded me of this last time we played).

[Spekkio]

Keep in mind that regardless of what order you get objectives mercs can always decide to just "give up" an objective. So the mercs can just execute spekkio's plan regardless of if you've captured greek or not. If his merc strategy is truly unbeatable then mercs will pretend greek doesn't exist and just sit in the two adjoining corridors like he wants them to, in which case it won't even matter what order you get the objectives.

Of course mercs could do this, but it's generally a bad strategy as it doesn't allow for any mistakes.

A part of what makes the coverage plan after greek so powerful (or any consolidated coverage for that matter on any map) is that it's likely the spies are down a couple lives after getting it, along with a lot of time. When the spies have to rush, they make mistakes. If the mercs just ignore greek, the spies will have 9 min and 8 lives to get the next two objectives.

I see mercs "give up" a floor in Club House all the time if you get a quick 2nd floor objective. It's not a very good strategy because even though it's tough to get that final obj on the first floor, having 7 or 8 lives and over 8 minutes makes it very doable. One neck and that's the ballgame. There's also the highly underrated electric hack.

[InvisibleMan999]

Of course mercs could do this, but it's generally a bad strategy as it doesn't allow for any mistakes.

A part of what makes the coverage plan after greek so powerful (or any consolidated coverage for that matter on any map) is that it's likely the spies are down a couple lives after getting it, along with a lot of time. When the spies have to rush, they make mistakes. If the mercs just ignore greek, the spies will have 9 min and 8 lives to get the next two objectives.

I see mercs "give up" a floor in Club House all the time if you get a quick 2nd floor objective. It's not a very good strategy because even though it's tough to get that final obj on the first floor, having 7 or 8 lives and over 8 minutes makes it very doable. One neck and that's the ballgame. There's also the highly underrated electric hack.

Depends on the team you're playing against. If you're against an aggro team, giving up objectives is almost always a bad idea. If you're playing against stealth spies, you can totally hose them because you force them into aggro mode to win.

As a spy that relies primarily on stealth, I can say that tactics like this tended to really screw me over.

[Gawain]

There's also the highly underrated electric hack.

The only use i can think of is, that you can creep in the ceiling and enter lunch/tea in a silent way. Plz explain what you mean ;)

On club, pure stealth doesn't work simply because of the 2 mercs on 3 objectives laming. You have always to hack-and-run garden on both floors to get a chance for 4 objectives.

[Spekkio]

Electric hack = open doors into jacuzzi steam.

Does multiple things:

1. The mercs don't have enough mines and traps to cover all the entrances
2. Quick and easy access between all 3 rooms.
3. Two mercs now have to split into covering 3 rooms with easy entrances. While this does require a lot of running around and diving on the spy's part, it gives you the best chance to win because it completely opens up the first floor.

An alternate strategy is that you coop a spy into tea, have him go down the back pipe. The other spy hides under the floor waiting for the spy in the back to get into position. Once the spy in position shoots a security out, the spy under the floor pops up and shocks the merc in the hallway, delaying him by 4 seconds. When the shock wears off, the spy inside runs and hides before the merc gets in. If the doors are hacked as above, the spy under the floor can run into the other back room. Of course the second merc will probably be in pursuit so that's where you have to use the spy's mobility to stay ahead.

An alternate strategy is you just try to aggro the mercs.

There are a ton of things you can do, you just gotta think of them.

[goodkebab]

CT has merc maps, and spy maps....what makes the game interesting is the variety which leaves something for everyone.   There are aggro maps, and stealth maps...maps where spies really need to double team objectives, and others where splitting up is even better.

So just keep that in mind.   I for one, dont want to change anything....except for new maps.

[Spekkio]

I agree with that.