Ammo for Spies?

[InvisibleMan999]

Sounds like you wan't a DA clone, rather than a CT clone.

What you're also forgetting is changing something small COULD have a big impact on balance...

Well, no I don't want a DA clone, DA was pretty terrible. It made stealth kills tough due to the unbeatable PD and took away crucial stealth ambush tactics, like back to the wall. DA took much of the strategy out of the game by removing mines and creating routes by which a spy could almost completely avoid the merc. Literally the only way to detect the spy was by the PD in some cases. 

DA took the anti-aggro trend way too far and changed the entire playstyle of the game.

I'm not suggesting we take away the shocker gun or remove all spy offenses. It's much like the shift from PT to CT, where spy offenses got toned down. In fact, I think the changes I am suggesting are promoting  more strategic play. I want to emphasize strategy and stealth over just blatant FPS run and gun skills. I mean if we wanted to play a game where the spy and merc both point guns at each other and try to shoot at each other, we'd just play UT in the first place. Just like SS+double jump in PT, side grabbing and quick cams give a lone spy too much offensive capability.

I don't have much of a problem saying "the merc can be invulnerable if he wants to", because this game isn't about killing the merc, it's about completing objectives. So if a merc has his back to the wall, then I'm ok with saying you can't grab him at all. Go hack and objective. If the merc stays there and safe, you win. If he leaves and exposes his back, well then your partner can grab him. And just because you can't triple nade, doesn't mean that your nades are totalyl useless. You could probably SS the merc's visor (taking away his visions), fire a flash, then run up close and drop a smoke. It'd be a bit tougher to pull that off now without triple nade, but it wouldnt' be impossible. I don't think removing it would be all that bad.

And you're still able to grab mercs with two spies fairly effectively. I'm just trying to limit the full-assault style of play, because after all, we're writing a stealth game, so stealth should be the main priority. Lets focus on the misdirection and mine placements and such, as opposed to just a spy rushing in firing cams like a madman.

I don't really think these changes will impact balance that much, unless you're talking about a full-assault aggro player. But as stated before, if the spies are just going to rush the mercs like it was a pure FPS, why aren't we just playing UT? We didn't like it in PT when spies just ran over mercs, and I don't think we really like it in CT either.

Really, I think the side grab is the most essential thing to remove. Slowing down quick cams and fixing triple nade can be something that we could balance test. It's easy enough to fix if it doesn't work out, as it's just a timer variable that can be easily changed.

[Overstatement]

Why not just occam's razor's it? Electrical suit gadget that stuns/knocks down spies that try to grab, active for a longish period (10 seconds?) after it's use, with limited usage (4 times?), that won't affect elbowing or sticky shockers.

If you're surprised by a merc, shock and run away. If you're going to "ambush grab" a merc, his suit won't be on because he won't be expecting you (maybe the suit takes one or two seconds to activate, incase you screw up your first try). And if you really really want to aggro with your partner, just hit and run until the merc runs out of charges.

[frvge]

Interesting idea. During the extra time, your partner can save you.

[Overstatement]

Well, I was thinking they would run away since it's pointless to aggro a merc you can't grab...unless you can jump on him, never thought of that...there goes the simplicity.

Edit: Do you people mind getting jumped on while surrounded by gas, spies and overall confusion?

[Raz0rx]

I've come to accept everything in CT as part of the game (even though some things are a bit frustrating at times). You learn to work around little annoyances.

In your case, side grabs, quick cams, and triple nades.
I very rarely encounter triple nades, i don't get cammed too often... my bigger annoyances are grabs that are dead on that hit, shock charges, and auto-aim jumping/charging.

[InvisibleMan999]

Why not just occam's razor's it? Electrical suit gadget that stuns/knocks down spies that try to grab, active for a longish period (10 seconds?) after it's use, with limited usage (4 times?), that won't affect elbowing or sticky shockers.

If you're surprised by a merc, shock and run away. If you're going to "ambush grab" a merc, his suit won't be on because he won't be expecting you (maybe the suit takes one or two seconds to activate, incase you screw up your first try). And if you really really want to aggro with your partner, just hit and run until the merc runs out of charges.

Well I don't really want to go that far to the point that mercs can become grab immune, unless the grab immunity requires that they remain stationary, then maybe. Even still, it'd be pretty risky to give them invulnerability, since it means that ambush grabs may also get negated, since mercs can just come running into a place being hacked with their shock suit on, similar to how mercs enter a dangerous area with their gas mask active.

I think it'd be fine if we just made mercs perfectly safe while in a corner. While moving around they should be vulnerable.

[seefoo.]

well i read most of this but dont have time to read the rest so if this idea was stated already sorry.

how bout giving a limit to spies on how many nades they can carry.  say like 6 nades total.  so if they take smoke, they will have 6 smoke nades.  if they take smoke and chaff, they will have 3 of each.  if they take triple nade, they will have 2 of each.  this may force the spies to be a little more selective about their equipment and their use.

ps.
change time in between shocking merc from 12 to 15 or 16 seconds.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

yea umm i guess that would be nice with ammo but really i would try to keep it? i dont really mind but i aggro at some maps and go stealth at some and Yeaa I taze a lot:D for some people this would be a disadvantage and for some an advantage!_!

[Spekkio]

Some nice discussion here...

1. Regarding cams: I honestly rarely get cammed by someone who is running from me and tries to quick-cam me from around the corner. Such a tactic is extremely obvious. I see no need to 'nerf' this because whenever someone tries it, they usually end up dead. The only time where this becomes frustrating is when you get your mask on but lag says you didn't.

Also, realize that if you take away quick-cams from a spy who's running away, you take away quick-cams froma stealthy spy too. If I'm in a dark corner and a merc doesn't know I'm there next to him, why shouldn't I be able to quick cam him? Now, before you say "well why don't you grab him?", the merc may not have his back to me and standing up might give away my position.

If you don't know what I mean, play against vantage. He's the king of the stealthy quick-cam, imo.

2. Regarding triple nades/seefoo's idea: Definitely viable. I think, though, that the max should be somewhere around 8-10. But take away the shooting of triple nades, and you also take away the usage of double nades. Mercs win more rounds than spies already on most maps; do we really need to nerf spies even more?

3. Regarding increasing shock invulnerability: I don't think it needs it, to be honest.

4. Regarding the side grab: Yes, the left side grab is silly.  No, it doesn't make the merc easier to grab. As a matter of fact, it makes it harder. A lot of players, even those who are moderately skilled, would sneak up directly behind a merc and get pissed off that they elbowed him. Also, it's retarded that all the hiding spots have to be from the left of the merc or else you're doomed to an elbow. I'm in full support of adjusting the grab radius to something like 45 degrees behind each side of the merc.

5. Regarding jumping: This is a necessary evil. It would be ridiculously easy to aggro mercs if not for jumping and the fact that it gives mercs a short immunity from grabs. What I think needs change is the following: if you charge into a wall, you should not be able to jump or turn for about a half second longer (wayyy too many funny punches come from this). If you charge into air, you should be able to turn but you shouldn't be able to jump until you are recovered.

Also, funny-punching needs to be fixed. If the merc is in the air, either two things could happen: 1. the spy doesn't do the elbow hit or 2: the spy does the hit, but the merc is affected by it the moment he hits the ground. I prefer 1.

6. Regarding shock charges: This is a result of shock detection being client side. I've had some funny instances where a reeeealllly high ping player joins up on my own server, and the shocks don't register until a full 2 seconds later. Shock detection should be host-side just like merc bullets. This is a netcode issue.

7. This game is stealth-ACTION. I don't know why everyone thinks that stealthy gameplay should trump everything and that we need to punish anyone who doesn't sneak around slowly 110% of the time. I love playing a mostly stealthy style, but let's face it: spies need a way to defend themselves. When people say things like "the game isn't about killing mercs" they're wrong. If you kill the mercs, you win. The reason few people try to win that way is because it's a lot harder to kill the mercs off for 6 lives when you only have 8 and your tools for killing are much less powerful than the merc's. Let me put it another way: it is already a far superior strategy to go for objectives than to try to take mercs head-on. That tells me that we don't need to go nuts nerfing triple nades, quick cams, or any other aggro techniques. Plus, mercs still win more than spies. Seriously, if you're getting eliminated often, then you just need to get better at the game.

8. Also, while we're on the topic of aggro, we need to make the jump hit detection a happy medium between the way too forgiving host-side hit detection, and the way too unforgiving client-side hit detection for all players regardless of being host or client.

[InvisibleMan999]

7. This game is stealth-ACTION. I don't know why everyone thinks that stealthy gameplay should trump everything and that we need to punish anyone who doesn't sneak around slowly 110% of the time. I love playing a mostly stealthy style, but let's face it: spies need a way to defend themselves. When people say things like "the game isn't about killing mercs" they're wrong. If you kill the mercs, you win. The reason few people try to win that way is because it's a lot harder to kill the mercs off for 6 lives when you only have 8 and your tools for killing are much less powerful than the merc's. Let me put it another way: it is already a far superior strategy to go for objectives than to try to take mercs head-on. That tells me that we don't need to go nuts nerfing triple nades, quick cams, or any other aggro techniques. Plus, mercs still win more than spies. Seriously, if you're getting eliminated often, then you just need to get better at the game.

Well, if the game turns into a simple matter of smoking, running around and cracking necks like a FPS, then it's no longer a stealth game, at all. If it's like that, then it's just UT with melee combat. And we do need to preserve stealth as being the superior style. Lets also be clear that aggro need not just be about snapping necks and killing the mercs deathmatch style. you can very well snap a neck or gas a merc then complete an objective.

Because lets face it, stealth has a big disadvantage that aggro doesn't. It's slow. Aggro players don't have to worry about the clock and they give mercs far less time to set up mines and other defenses. If we don't encourage stealth, people won't do it. The same way they don't bother doing it in UT or Quake or any other FPS game out there.

This isn't to say that aggro can't work at all, merely that it has to be highly inefficient compared to doing things the stealthy way. And this is stuff we can play around with. Modifying the time it takes to discharge gas on a sticky or fire multiple grenades from the launcher is just a timer variable that can easily be modified so we can see if the game indeed becomes unbalanced when aggro is toned down. Worse that happens is we just change the delay variables back. Nothing is written in stone. I'm just saying that we should try new things and see if maybe they improve gameplay.

Another big factor in stealth versus aggro is on the merc detection side. This game probably should tone down MT, or remove it entirely. And of course probably cap maximum screen resolution for mercs as well.

[Spekkio]

Well, if the game turns into a simple matter of smoking, running around and cracking necks like a FPS, then it's no longer a stealth game, at all. If it's like that, then it's just UT with melee combat. And we do need to preserve stealth as being the superior style. Lets also be clear that aggro need not just be about snapping necks and killing the mercs deathmatch style. you can very well snap a neck or gas a merc then complete an objective.

This is impossible against non-noobs now, so why do we need to nerf anything?

Because lets face it, stealth has a big disadvantage that aggro doesn't. It's slow. Aggro players don't have to worry about the clock and they give mercs far less time to set up mines and other defenses. If we don't encourage stealth, people won't do it.

Plenty of people already play stealthy in the current gameplay mechanics.

I kind of don't understand...are you playing the same game I am when you play ct? No offense or anything, but you just sound like a noob who got aggroed, lost, and now think that the game needs to change instead of you just improving your skills. A team that comes straight at you with purely aggro is going to lose most of the time. 2 spies vs. 2 mercs = dead spies unless the spies are a much better team. The teams that win the most use a mix of aggro and stealth to accomplish their goals. Since this is a stealth-action game, that's the way it should be.

You want to talk about efficiency -- aggro is inefficient because it's that much easier for the mercs to kill you. Merc mistakes are much more forgiving against aggro teams, especially when the spies can't get objectives because they're tripping alarms all over the place.

Furthermore, stealthy doesn't mean slow. Lrn2usesnares. A couple of well-placed snares and you'll be able to run pretty much anywhere in the map without impedence, so long as the merc isn't in the room. A lot of people have this misconception that stealth = hiding in vent for 5 min waiting for merc to leave. That's never going to happen because the objectives are static, so that means you have to take him out or make him think both spies are elsewhere.

Not saying that CT was perfect, but quick-cams weren't one of the things that are broken. What you do need to fix is that retarded menu that comes up that says "Last cam/new cam" when you go to fire a new cam. There's no need for that when we have a separate key devoted to going to the last cam. PT degenerated to a game of aggro-Super-Mario-Bros. spies. CT is nothing like that. You need to look no further than the meager winrates of spies on maps that force aggro only like Warehouse, Deftech, and Bank to realize that mix style >>> stealth only = aggro only.

As far as MT whores...that's really a function of the map more than anything. In most maps, there are obfuscated passageways for the spies to take to get to objectives. MT won't see a spy in the vent, or a ceiling. All you gotta do as spy is be cafeful and creep by when the merc has his back to you (or leaves the room). However, some maps require the spies to traverse wide-open space, and that's where MT gets annoying. Maps like Deftech or Station sector 2. In those maps, though, people underestimate the power of a sticky shocker headshot. Most MT whores are completely lost when their screen isn't entirely red, so that buys you about 10 seconds of mobility. The problem is getting the tazer headshot before the merc sees you and snipes you in the head.

I wouldn't be opposed to making MT force normal-post render. What that will do is give a shortened max distance that a merc can see a spy if he's not setting off the grey box. Other than that, nothing is really needed except not to make idiotic maps.

It was either Gimp or Cataclysm who said it first, but it's 100% true: MT is the crutch of a bad merc.

[InvisibleMan999]

I kind of don't understand...are you playing the same game I am when you play ct? No offense or anything, but you just sound like a noob who got aggroed, lost, and now think that the game needs to change instead of you just improving your skills.

Well no, I've played a lot. And what's sad is that when I lost games, it was almost exclusively to aggro. Except in big stealth maps like orphanage or factory or when my partner just plain sucked, Stealth teams would not beat me. Yeah, I MT whored, and I had a pretty high screen resolution with post render quality turned on. But I didn't even use EAX with a fancy sound card either. Meaning that my spy detection skills weren't even as good as they could have been.

Even so, it was virtually impossible for a spy to sneak past me or get stealth grabs. The games I lost with a competent partner were almost always against aggro teams with a combo of triple nade or quick cam tactics. Granted, it took a good and coordinated aggro team to win, but nonetheless, the point was that stealth generally just didn't work. This isn't to say that I ended every match with 0 merc lives, merely that for the spies to get the objective my neck was generally broken, or they were busy smoking/shocking me while the other guy hacked.

This led me to believe the following:
First, stealth needed to be upgraded (more or less translating to MT needing to be nerfed). In most maps it just wasn't viable to win via stealth.

Second, aggro needed to be weakened somewhat. As you said, mercs do win more games on average than spies, so it's got to be a two way street. The mercs ability to detect the spy should be weakened somewhat and the mercs ability to fight the spy should be increased.

You want to talk about efficiency -- aggro is inefficient because it's that much easier for the mercs to kill you. Merc mistakes are much more forgiving against aggro teams, especially when the spies can't get objectives because they're tripping alarms all over the place.

Setting off alarms? Are you kidding? I'm talking about a good aggro team, not a couple of death match noobs. Good aggro teams generally know how to drop chaff.

Not saying that CT was perfect, but quick-cams weren't one of the things that are broken. What you do need to fix is that retarded menu that comes up that says "Last cam/new cam" when you go to fire a new cam. There's no need for that when we have a separate key devoted to going to the last cam. PT degenerated to a game of aggro-Super-Mario-Bros. spies. CT is nothing like that. You need to look no further than the meager winrates of spies on maps that force aggro only like Warehouse, Deftech, and Bank to realize that mix style >>> stealth only = aggro only.

Well, no, actually aggro only > stealth only, at least on most maps. While mixing can be useful on occasion, you can beat good players going aggro only, but almost never going stealth only.

As far as those maps, I'd say bank is about the only semi reasonable one, the rest are ridiculously pro-merc.

Warehouse is effectively just a frag whore map. That map tends to be tough even for aggro spies, because you need 1 spy to hack and 1 spy to neutralize both mercs. IF you don't, the frag is in the air the moment you start hacking. By the time you roll away and get in position to start hacking again, the other merc is getting up from the cam. Warehouse may be an aggro-required map, but it hardly favors aggro spies like it did in PT.

Deftech is awful map design. Inside buildings, it's tight corridors and few places to hide. It's hard to circle  a merc in this environment because you're in such tight quarters. Neither stealth nor aggro works on deftech effectively. Deftech is the quintessential pro-merc map.  Only way to win this one is to be good at quick cams, because it's literally all that works. Even then... you're at a big disadvantage.

As far as bank, that's like warehouse-lite. Still there are enough positions such that you can't automatically frag every console from anywhere on the main room, so aggro has a bit more of a chance and getting down to the bottom objective is usually just a simple speed rush, so it tends to be a one objective map anyway.

As far as MT whores...that's really a function of the map more than anything. In most maps, there are obfuscated passageways for the spies to take to get to objectives. MT won't see a spy in the vent, or a ceiling. All you gotta do as spy is be cafeful and creep by when the merc has his back to you (or leaves the room). However, some maps require the spies to traverse wide-open space, and that's where MT gets annoying. Maps like Deftech or Station sector 2. In those maps, though, people underestimate the power of a sticky shocker headshot. Most MT whores are completely lost when their screen isn't entirely red, so that buys you about 10 seconds of mobility. The problem is getting the tazer headshot before the merc sees you and snipes you in the head.

The worst part about MT is just the incidental detections that it gets. I mean the mercs back could be turned to you and you don't even know he's in MT, and then all of a sudden, *poof* you're detected and you may not even know it. And after that, you're just screwed. MT requires just incidental exposure, something that may not even be all that visible on normal vision, for instance in the grated ceiling above the fish tank room in aquarius. Yeah you can slow walk all the time, but great, you're wasting more time and giving me more time to spot you with the night vision effect of MT.

Suffice to say, I tended to like the DA fix to MT a lot better. MT is the universal stealth hoser ability. Trust me on that, it's basically all I use. I never use standard vision, just MT and EMF.

As far as map design, having fairly wide open areas isn't necessarily bad, We don't want the game to turn into a series of corridors where by stealth is just a matter of using heartbeat sensor and a little luck. Because if you have total cover most of the time, it becomes dangerously close to what DA is now. You want stealth to be viable, but you still want to give mercs a chance to stop stealth. In general, that means having some open rooms where a merc can chance upon a spy with his flashlight. It's anticlimactic to have a gray box do that for you, even when your back is turned. I'd rather be detected by a merc's careful searching as opposed to the overly sensitive MT vision that happens to pick me up because I crouch walked instead of crouch creeped.

I wouldn't be opposed to making MT force normal-post render. What that will do is give a shortened max distance that a merc can see a spy if he's not setting off the grey box. Other than that, nothing is really needed except not to make idiotic maps.

Even on xbox, where MT is normal post render, I still can whore MT and do better than using the flashlight. Granted you don't have those long range MT snipes that you can get in PC, but it's still an effective tactic. 

If you want a possible fix for MT, you can go with the DA one, or perhaps do MT red vision similar to how DA does EMF, where you have to stand still for the vision to clear. So running around with MT is all blurry. If the spy isn't moving you pretty much can't see anything.

Personally though, I just prefer the way DA handles motion tracking. It was one of the few good fixes that DA brought about, forcing people to resort to using their flashlights again. And anything that forces people back their flashlights is good.

I'm thinking we put the white outline MT into normal vision, like DA and replace the existing MT vision with a battle vision, perhaps it could involve putting on your gas mask and makes you immune to flashbangs, all at the cost of quality vision. So if you're facing off against some aggro spies, you can do that. Against stealthers though, battle vision should be basically useless.

It was either Gimp or Cataclysm who said it first, but it's 100% true: MT is the crutch of a bad merc.

One could also say quick cams and triple nades are the crutch of a bad spy as well. People tend to use what's effective, and cycling MT and EMF is the most effective merc tactic. Not to mention MT made you immune to flashbangs, yet another great reason to use it.

Even if the spies did sneak past you, going at minimum speed was so slow that they had to do it absolutely perfectly or run out of time. And it wasn't too hard to pick them up on MT even if they didn't set off the gray noob box. What's even better is that if they tried to stay stationary, sometimes you'd see em anyway and you'd get a clean headshot. If they tried to move, then your box had them and you could follow their progress even after they returned to cover. I can't count the number of potential stealth grabs thwarted by the fact that I noticed the box stopped after getting behind cover. Oh look, he must have put his back to the wall and be ready to grab me.

Seriously, MT was crazy awesome.

[frvge]

ingame name?

[Overstatement]

Well....I can see we've abandoned occam's razor.

[InvisibleMan999]

Well....I can see we've abandoned occam's razor.

Honestly, we're building this game from scratch and implementing DA style MT is actually easier than implementing CT style.

First, DAs is just a feature that says "If spy is visible and spyspeed = run, then put a white outline on him". For CT MT you're going to have to first describe the red vision, then code the grey box and then make it so it detects objects.

As far as simplicity goes, the DA version of MT is real easy.

Alternately, we could just go with the simplest method, which is no MT at all. Though that would definitely make smoke grenades much more powerful.