****New Spy Gadget Idea ****

[Gawain]

@snakebit: i don't wanna go back to pt style passive security castles, but in ct there is definitely too few passive security. it's a bad thing that taze-hack-run tactics are the most efficient on most ct maps.
regarding spytraps, you're right that presence detectors are underestimated and are indeed a great tool. unlike the original spytraps, they are hard to find which seperates them from mines.
regarding bullets, if you don't allow mutual removal then you have to nerf the timer/range and boost the timer/range when they are on the floor, because otherwise there would be almost no reason to place them anywhere else besides on the merc.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

PT was just fine.

[Kurbutti]

the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.

blocking paths isn't the purpose of spytraps, it's tracking spies. if you wanna block a pathway, you should use mines.

I still disagree with these statements.

Spytraps don't "block" you in any possible way. A cleverly placed spy trap presents you a choice: Either go fast and trip it, or find a way around and risk being found and eradicated by the mercs on patrol. Even if you survive, you'll loose a few seconds of your precious time in doing so. There are no dead ends in any merc-accessible areas, so there's always a way to circle them. If a spy is pressured to run through it it, then there is a good chance he's already lost the game, or ST's are a lesser problem compared to merc running on his heels.

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SvM and PS are are Steath Action games (note action is there too ) . If you make EVERY detection device lock objectives than aggro would become almost non existent because well runing around won't be that good anymore . taz-hack-run would be very hard to do or impossible because there are usually many sensors + cams near objectives and on your way there . If you remove aggro than what will remain of the game ? Full stealth Huh?? Is full stealth that good ? I actually don't think so . A merc waiting for spies for 5-6 min is BORING ... very boring .... Thats why the game has to have SOME action elements in it . Direct incouters are neccecary .

For me, the whole glamour of the game is in the rollercoaster of action and downtime. I don't think we should let everything pull an autocannon out from the wall, but objectives ought to be better protected, to prevent chaff + hack 4 secs + shock + flash + run * repeat -gameplay. Allowing spies run roam freely around the map ignoring every security device is boring and dumb.

Spy traps are balanced at the moment in ct . I think . 1st of all you can refill them with backpack

Yet I disagree. I can't believe how many times this has to be stated, but currently it wouldn't matter how many traps you can place in the map. Whether it'd be 3 or 3 million, all it takes is a x millisecond procedure and they'd all be gone. So the problem remains as follows: It's ridiculously easy to get rid of the tags.

Spy traps are balanced at the moment in ct . I think . 1st of all you can refill them with backpack . 2nd : You can not only place spy traps but also alarm snairs which in different places have a lot of uses . A lot of people forget about alarm snairs in the game but they are actually useful. Don't say that the loud sound makes it eazy to find them , because it dosen't if it's well planted + it makes the spy waste a lot of time looking for them and trying to not get spoted by them during which he can be easily spoted by a merc .

???

Spy bullets are also okay in ct . Well you can fix the bug that dosen't allow to see merc for some people [ I never had this bug in like.... all the time i played ] . I always use spy bullets when i play as a spy and i don't have any problems usually . Ofcourse they will run out eventually but still i think that 5 is the optimal ammount for 4 lives . If you aggro it is obviouse you gonna run out of equipment + If you stealth and put a spy bullet on every corner ofcourse you gonna run out of them. It is not how you supposed to use them . Either stick them to a place where mercs always run around / or stick it on them.  5 * 1. 30 - 7.30......

No, spybullets are not okay in CT, mainly for the same reasons as spy traps: Both are ridiculously easy to remove. Furthermore, bullets lack an aspect in practicality due to their ineffectiviness as a forward warning system. So hereby I'd like to re-propose my change for the bullets, in addition to the ones touching their removal:

Just make bullets track one full minute, and hibernate whenever there isn't any activity around them. They'd still be useful in tough spots but wouldn't fail as a forward warning system either.

If you make endless amount of spy bullits or make their time endless then it will be impossible for merc to hide from them.... There are literally 100000000 places to plant them and some of them are UNSHOOTABLE by the merc. So they must have a time limit and an amount to prevent the spy from just seeing all map.

Lucky for you, currently there is no initiative to make them infinite in number, nor in duration.

Edit : If you make spy bullet stay on a merc for 1.30 without the means to remove it than it will become very imbalanced . HBS allows you to see the spy in well 15 meter range but in no means it allows you to see the merc everywhere on the map . If the spy bullet becomes unremovable than you will be able to see BOTH mercs ALL the game which is IMBALANCED ? each life has 5 bullets thats 7.30 mins 7.30*4 = 30 min ? / 2 = 15 min each merc

First of all, you won't see where the merc is all the time. He's just an arrow at some point around your radar circle if he's further than 15 meters from you. Second of all, SB's will not allow you to actively track the mercs unless they're tagged. This is a very significant drawback, and one of the reasos that make this gadged both interesting and unique as a recon tool. And like I quoted myself, tag time should be reduced to compensate for the lack or removability.

Also, how is the current system suddenly not that "imbalanced", if both mercs have been tagged, but split because they're busy hunting spies?

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I think the gist of the idea was to make spy bullets non-removable if they are on a merc.

QFE. In addition, (given traps are realized in "my way"), I'd suggest they don't appear on EMF unless merc is near enough => bullet is transmitting actively transmitting his location.

EDIT: At least posting bullshit makes me see what's utterly wrong in my English. :-P

[Gawain]

Just make bullets track one full minute, and hibernate whenever there isn't any activity around them. They'd still be useful in tough spots but wouldn't fail as a forward warning system either.

I think the gist of the idea was to make spy bullets non-removable if they are on a merc.

In addition(...) I'd suggest they don't appear on EMF unless merc is near enough => bullet is transmitting actively transmitting his location.

great suggestion so far, can't see anything wrong with it.

regarding spytraps:
-remove poison mines from the game
-remove mutual trap removal from the game
-make spytraps a lot less or even in-visible in thermal vision in med/far distance and when moving quickly
-increase amount of simultaniously placable traps (and starting amount) to 5
-lower tracking timer to 1 minute
-running through other spytraps while trapped simply resets the timer to 1 minute

[Spekkio]

Kurbutti is wise. I agree with him 100%.

First of all, you won't see where the merc is all the time. He's just an arrow at some point around your radar circle. if he's further than 15 meters from you. Second of all, SB's will not allow you to actively track the mercs unless they're tagged. This is a very significant drawback, and one of the reasos that make this gadged both interesting and unique as a recon tool. And like I quoted myself, tag time should be reduced to compensate for the lack or removability.

I wanted to emphasize this part, and add that it is actually easier for a merc to get rid of a bullet when he is tagged than it is for a merc to get rid of a well-placed bullet in some hidden part of the map. However, tagging a merc is generally more difficult than tagging a static part of the map when no one is looking. That, right there, is backwards.

[Westfall]

so you want to make tagging a merc easier?

[kronf]

So you want to run up to a merc shock him tag with a spy bullet ran away and he has no way to remove it? Thats extremely stupid. It was fine in ct. If mercs can easily meet up and remove your spy bullets you are doing something wrong. When I used to play ct I rarely get to meet my partner to use backpack unless I was playing warehouse let alone to remove spy bullets every 10 seconds and even if I did I was taking a huge risk leaving my position unguarded.

[Westfall]

I don't think it should be so easy for the merc to have the bullet removed, as goes for spies and spy traps. I didn't analyze the idea of running up to a merc, shocking him, and planting a bullet on him, which is what most aggro players do. I don't think that leaving it the same would be a sound solution. Its lame for the bullets/traps to be removed so quickly.

[kronf]

I don't think it should be so easy for the merc to have the bullet removed, as goes for spies and spy traps. I didn't analyze the idea of running up to a merc, shocking him, and planting a bullet on him, which is what most aggro players do. I don't think that leaving it the same would be a sound solution. Its lame for the bullets/traps to be removed so quickly.

Easy? As in you only need to press one button in front of your teammate? Because its not easy at all to find a good time to meet up without leaving your objectives wide open. It actually takes some skill and communication.

[Spekkio]

Tagging a merc is not the toughest thing in the world, but it does open you up to being killed.

Mercs meeting up isn't hard at all; a lot of people do it multiple times per round.

[Kurbutti]

However, tagging a merc is generally more difficult than tagging a static part of the map when no one is looking. That, right there, is backwards.

A random idea that might help solve the problem:

As you select the bullets, your SS projects a circle-shaped ring instead of laser (visible to mercs?), which shows the area where the target must be, for the bullet to tag properly. The narrowness of the cone could be adjusted with mouse wheel, so that you won't lose the abiity of placing the bullet into a static location even if the merc stands right next to the spot. Additionally, in order to minimize failures the cone could change colours depending whether it hits or not. For example, red = no tag, green = tag.

[Gawain]

there is no problem to solve, especially not with a decent mouse implementation.

spekkio: kronf is right that meeting up just to remove bullets is a very bad idea in high-level games at almost any time (unless you need backpack/the spies are aggroing in one merc's area/one or both spies dead). but unfortunately, we also have to consider mid-skilled gameplay...

[Spekkio]

there is no problem to solve, especially not with a decent mouse implementation.

spekkio: kronf is right that meeting up just to remove bullets is a very bad idea in high-level games at almost any time (unless you need backpack/the spies are aggroing in one merc's area/one or both spies dead). but unfortunately, we also have to consider mid-skilled gameplay...

In a "high skilled game," the spies are just as likely to be working together as they are to be working apart. If they're together, it's not too detrimental to have the other merc come over. Nor is it that detrimental if one spy is dead and you have a reasonable idea of where the other one is, which you do most of the time.

You guys are making it sound like meeting to remove traps and use backpack is this big huge feat that's SOOO risky, when in fact it normally occurs multiple times per round.

[ChickenSkin]

But unfortunately, we also have to consider mid-skilled gameplay...

Not everything is about being good at the game..

You guys are making it sound like meeting to remove traps and use backpack is this big huge feat thats SOOO risky, when in fact it normally occurs multiple times per round.

QFE

[Gawain]

so spybullets can be removed without any additional risk about 2-5 times a game on a decent map (from my own experience), this gadget is totally screwed  ::)