****New Spy Gadget Idea ****

[Roberto1223]

I DISAGREE WITH YOU WESTFALL.

I NEVER SAID U PROPOSED THE IDEA OF FLASHLIGHT BATTERIES..
AND I ONLY SAID "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE UR IDEA IS GAY"

CAUSE U SAID "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE U DONT MAKE A VALID ARGUMENT"  WHICH WE BOTH KNOW NEITHER OF US ACTUALLY LAUGHED SO, I JUST DID IT TO GET YOU BACK FOR TRYING TO BE A FLAMING SMART ASS.

WELL TO BE HONEST I DID LAUGH WHEN I SAID "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE UR IDEA IS GAY" BECAUSE ITS A STUPID REPLY AND BELIEVE ME I KNOW IT, BUT SO IS UR NOT EVEN FUNNY TO U, LAME SMART ASS REPLY "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE U DONT MAKE A VALID ARGUMENT" SO YA JUST DROP THE WHOLE INTELECTUAL THING U GOT GOING ON WHERE U THINK UR THE BOSS OF THE FORUM

AND JUST GET TO YOUR POINTS OF VIEW WITHOUTH BEING UNNECESSARILY MEAN, OR ELSE EXPECT UNNECESSARILY MEAN/DUMB RESPONSES.

AS SAID BY RAMBO "you came up with no point at all why camnet shouldn't be infinite."
AND BY ME, you never really gave ur reason why u want time limit on camnet, ur just naggin like a lil kid saying its not because u had a hard time with mercs using camnet and, and then repeating that to me sayin im the one having trouble with camnet even though i never proposed timelimit.

lol dude comon, oh and my idea about the merc having to turn his body to turn the cam on camnet is actually more of an explination to why it happens in case it would get implemented in the game for balancing issues, so its a fair fix, and it also has a fair explination as to why it happens.

unlike ur time limit, if sombody ever asked u would say "oh cause i wanted to" lame..
i hope u get my point..

[Roberto1223]

WESTFALL "Also, if the camera is on the mercs wrist, why would he have to turn his entire body to view areas of a room?"

well im sorry about that i didnt explain myself correctly, what i mean by Virtual Reality is something maybe you hadnt heard of?

well what i mean by it is that, in case CamNet is selected, the merc has a diferent helmet were he has a heads up display, he can see through the glass that covers his face but as soon as camnet is activate with a button on the side of his camnet enabled helmet, his Heads up display which is projected inside the helmet and on to the glass covering his face, he can only see what the cam sees and to turn the camera, as a virtual reality video game would function, he would have to turn his body a little or at least rotate his head (obviously enought to be grabable from behind incase he has his back to the wall)

i hope u understand and i hope to recieve a non flaming response from u.

[Westfall]

I happy you continue to flame on. I have nothing to waste on you. Obviously you're intelligence surpasses that of mine because you speak it so appropriately. When did I say I was in charge of the forum? Good, glad you can point that one out. If you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you would see perfectly valid explanations as to why camnet does NOT need to be infinite. I'm not repeating it for the like of you because you obviously have an attention clause going on. Its great that there is an actual dev team, because their reading level is above that of an elementary schooler. I wish I could type in all caps all the time, but thats not really my style. I don't see how you're saying I was really mean when ppl responding didn't deserve a snide comment back because they potentially started it. It gets worse and worse as it progresses, hence you trying to be a hero and type in all caps because you needed to get the attention. You got it buddy, and I'm sure many people on the forum are aware that they don't want to talk to you. I'm just saying what they're thinking.

AS SAID BY RAMBO "you came up with no point at all why camnet shouldn't be infinite."
AND BY ME, you never really gave ur reason why u want time limit on camnet, ur just naggin like a lil kid saying its not because u had a hard time with mercs using camnet and, and then repeating that to me sayin im the one having trouble with camnet even though i never proposed timelimit.

Once again, try reading the thread once in a while.

Virtual reality....in an action-stealth game. I'm sure so many people really want this brilliant idea implemented, hence why not one person has said anything about it aside from myself. In fact, you were ignored because the idea was....well....fucking stupid. Devs don't have the time to look at bullshit, and you wreak of it. So please, don't try to call me out on some bullshit when you're guilty as charged.

Now that this thread was spammed by the likes of a little girl, I ask that the devs lock it because its absolutely not progressing with this fuckin child. Lock please

[Kurbutti]

The reason why an interesting and yet creative debate ought to be shut down just because you make a big act out of someone's input is beyond me, Westfall. Besides, there are these things they call private messages.

[Gawain]

If you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you would see perfectly valid explanations as to why camnet does NOT need to be infinite.

westfall, your point fails. we all agree that patroulling should still be needed with camnet, and the right way to reach this goal is simply by not having every important area covered by camnet (+removing special visions and making maps darker), eg. not putting camnet in every goddamn room and not allowing every moving/fov angle (some more obstacles in the fov for instance). having a gay timer doesn't help shit, it just calls for more camping on the spy side which is just as bad.

roberto1223, you're an idiot. i don't know more about you, but i guess you're either some random fool from the ubi forums or some smurf #928 of some other fool. i don't wanna flame you, but seriously, either get a brain or spam less important threads in the off-topic section.

Factory: I suppose no one's figured out since the tourney that if you stand in MH right in front of the vent you can tell where the spies are going from spawn and act accordingly? No noise on reticle = B/C. Noise on reticle = he fell down underneath. Spy pops out from vent up top and you shoot him. Not very hard to figure out.

this only works in the very beginning (or after a respawn), and doesn't help that much if the spies split up and use snares.

I hate to tell you, but CT already relies on incapacitating the mercs to win. Sure, the first objective or two you might be able to get away with running around and keeping the mercs away, but eventually the area of coverage is going to get small enough where you're going to have to take out a merc to win.

which is a bad thing. some aggro covering with teamplay should be needed towards the end, but definitely not killing/knocking out a merc. on a balanced map, you have at least 3 objectives left in the end, and by that i mean at least a little spread out ones that aren't too hard to get (bad: polar base, aqua; balanced: club, orph, factory).

[Spekkio]

this only works in the very beginning (or after a respawn), and doesn't help that much if the spies split up and use snares.

Spy trap at the bottom vent.

[Gawain]

chaff/mate at the bottom vent XD

[Blank Man]

All you queers that think that mercenary equipment should have a limited energy charge like spy with his shocker and cloak... are queers. Camnet being limited goes back to the issue of stealth. By what I've read, most of you want aggro to be non-existent in PS. Limiting camnet won't do that for you. Camnet encourages spies to "AVOID" being on mercs sight... "STEALTH". If you think limiting mercs viewing accessabilities will do any good for the stealth vs aggro debate, yer wrong.

[Spekkio]

chaff/mate at the bottom vent XD

You still know where the spy went, and he's only got two ways out. If they use partner to remove the trap, you now know where both of them are, and each merc can guard an exit.

Thank you for proving my point :).

[Snakebit.]

Hbs + power drain is a useless combo. Most good players don't use it for long. People usually turn it on fast , check things around themselves and then turn it off . How will power drain effect that ?
Well you can make it last for 3 seconds only , but that will be absurd because new players will never be able to use it well and this will also encourage the fast usage of that item...... Which is imho not the point of it.

I disagree. Using the HBS for even a short period of time takes one shot off the SS...that's one shot less you have to defend yourself if you get caught.

Camp with hbs + Cam will be impossible you think ? But you can always switch between gadget 1 and gadget 2 to prevent the drain of energy , can't you ?

Make it so that HBS won't activate if the energy meter isn't full like camo. Problem solved.

The only balance to the gadget IMHO is to weaken it a bit , but not by power drain , but by making the Scan Wave take more time + not showing the target on the radar all the time .. ( Only make it possible to see the location where the target was for 0.2 sec and make the wave take 4-5 sec ) < I am not sure of time because , once again , it will need balancing.

I don't like the idea of a target sometimes appearing on radar. That's what happens with spy bullets currently, and it's excessively annoying.

If the Camnets gets a power drain , it will get weakened a bit , but it will still remain a powerful tool , one might say even an imbalanced one . I agree that on some maps it is very imbalanced , BUT if you haven't noticed it is only imbalanced on HUGE MAPS ( Factory , Rivermall , Polar base ).

I think camnet is imbalanced because the mercs can use it indefinitely and there is no direct counter to it on the spy side short of running around. More importantly, I don't like the fact that it allows the mercs to play a more campy playstyle, which makes them a lot less susceptible to ambushes, which in turn makes them a lot less susceptible to being incapacitated.

If there was no camnet on those maps ( Excluding polar base ) , it would be almost impossible for the merc to win the map .

I strongly disagree. Spy traps are very useful on those maps, although they have their own issues as well. Even with just double backpack + mines, it's very possible to win on those maps.

And really, this isn't any problem that can't be solved by upping the passive defenses in the map rather than having the merc operate some of the cameras.

There are only 2 mercs and it's impossible for 2 of them to check 3 huge sectors all the time . The spy would be able to do his job the DA style .( Sneak - Hack - Run - Hide 100 times all over again )

Welcome to the current state of CT.

Camnet prevents the Sneak-Hack-Run-Hide scenario on huge maps and i think that it is not a very bad thing. Camnet might be imbalanced on those maps , but on the other hand mercs are already weakened on those maps by the sheer amount of space they need to check so the map becomes more balanced with it.

Camnet only takes the sneak and hide out of that strat, so it boils down to just run-hack. The only map that's too big for mercs to cover effectively is Vertigo.

Like Spekkio said Camnet is almost crap when it comes to dealing with small rooms , but its not totally useless in my opinion . In my experience it is not so bad to prevent the spy from hacking the ND for additional 1-2 sec than to have 2 more nades + 2 more mines . ( There is the good old suicide for more gadgets )

Yes but this is where spy traps become more useful than camnet.

I am really not good at making those quote boxes so ill just write all of my stuff in a single text.


I disagree that hbs will take even 1 ss shot away. Everybody use it for checking things around themselves . Okay it might take 1 shot away if you look with hbs where the merc is and shoot at the same time , but i actually do that rarely when i use hbs . I usually have nades turned on when i start to shoot at a merc ......


Making hbs not active when you don't have full energy is a bit unrealistic but its a way to balance it , but there can be other ways to do so . For example make the right mouse button activate hbs which will activate it after 1-2 seconds to prevent from abusing switching from gadget 1 to gadget 2.


Well a difference in opinion . Actually i like my idea more that yours . This will make the hbs + cam a bit harder and it will take actual skill to do it . Oh and on the side note , may be you guys misunderstood me a bit or i didn't give a clear description but i meant it to work something like this : The scan wave reaches the target and detects it . The target appears on the radar even if it didn't move BUT it only shows the place where he was at the moment when then scan wave reached him . It won't show the Exact movement of the merc but just will show it partially . The spy will have to wait 3-4 sec again for the scan wave to reach the merc again so the gadget will be weakened a bit and the camp + hbs + cam trick will be harder and will take skill to time . If this idea is implemented there will be actually a variety between spy bullet ( Which gives exact information on the mercs movement all the time in a certain area or if it is put on a merc but is not infinite) and hbs ( Which will give Less information , will be harder to use and will take a bit more time to use but is infinite )



I disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......
In addition to that if 1 merc is tracking the spy with camnet and the other is trying to kill him that gives the other spy an opportunity to either disable the camnet merc or to hack an objective . You just need to have teamplay .


Spy traps are a useful item and they are good for some maps But not for all . Sometimes camnet is more useful than spytraps for me ( Orph / fact / Cinema etc ) . Certainly there are some very good places for spy traps , like the place at factory in machine near that vent , but there are not many of them . Spy traps force the spy to take chaff to counter it and if i remember correctly , you are against 'weapon counters' in Sc Spekkio .


Vertigo is not a big map . Its not so hard to check it , it is just those long bridges that make it look and feel big . They take around 30 seconds to pass .... The buildings themselves are not so big .


Edit : Spekkio's has a point about spy traps in factory and that vent in machine + The Mh start tactic at as merc . I can agree those are good tactics at factory but in general  they don't make the life of spies so much 10 times harder as camnet does on those maps . If there was no camnet you could just use the 'Fools' running strategy which actually me and Solidus used a lot even with camnet , but without camnet it would be 10 times more effective .

Note : Ill make a little explanation on what is 'Fools' running strategy . It is a situation when 1 spy and 1 merc and present in 1 sector where there are 2 or more objectives . That requires some teamplay to be done before that happens but in maps such as Rivermall and Factory it is not so hard because the map is huge and there are several ways to get to different places. Then when you have 1 merc and 1 spy in 1 sector you start to run in circles with the merc and the merc can't do a crap exept to pray for an insta nade , spray headshot or to have mines placed beforehand ( We usually take them off before we start doing this ). Lets take rivermall for example ----> Me and Soliduses tactic again . Snakebit goes to
Hi-fi and Solidus stays in main. Both mercs are split , now the round starts to depend more on solo skill than teamplay . Snakebit run's from Hi-fi down ---> Office by that roof thing [And the other way around]. It is usually impossible to counter this even with camnet . Solidus runs from vgames ----> Infokiosk [And the other way around]. He might not take whole nd with 1 run but doing it 2-3 times he will take 1 of them and the other is gonna be at 50-60%. So what do we get ? Hi-fi down or Office is taken . Infokiosk or Vgames is taken. Vgames or Info (which one is left ) is around 50%. There is still 2 more objectives in Hi Fi sector. You can still run around like an idiot there taking 1-2 sec althought it is a bit harder with Hi-fi up and Hi-fi down or office because of camnet .

Now because there is camnet . You can do several things about that tactic . One is that you can try to prevent the spies to get into hi-fi by any means and 2nd you can check FAST with camnet where the spy might be going. If there was no camnet this tactic would be IMPOSSIBLE to counter if it was executed decently . [ Note : Decently , not Perfectly even ]

There are similar tactics for Factory and other maps but i am very lazy to type it all here. Camnet just makes those tactics 10 times more hard to use.

[Gawain]

@spekkio: actually going down there as a merc is kinda stupid as you are in  bad situation if the spy rushes out at the front. and one spy kinda binds two mercs leaving machine room wide open.
spytraps can help you for sure, but 3 traps on such a big map is kinda ridiculous. there are some nice spots (like on most maps), but they help shit against careful players compared with camnet or backpack.

what i really don't like about spytraps is that it's so easy to spot them with thermal vision that they suck in most places and in the tricky places, it basically comes down to a gadget counter game with chaff if you don't happen to have your mate around. besides, they gadget overlap with poison mines in many locations/uses. all in all, spytraps need more changes than camnet.

[Westfall]

If you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you would see perfectly valid explanations as to why camnet does NOT need to be infinite.

westfall, your point fails. we all agree that patroulling should still be needed with camnet, and the right way to reach this goal is simply by not having every important area covered by camnet (+removing special visions and making maps darker), eg. not putting camnet in every goddamn room and not allowing every moving/fov angle (some more obstacles in the fov for instance). having a gay timer doesn't help shit, it just calls for more camping on the spy side which is just as bad.

We all agree....who are "we"? The only people really talking about it were you, I, Spekkio, and Snakebit. As far as we being a large group, that's not really present. Obviously patrolling is needed with camnet. With camnet placed in good locations, and visions gone...a merc can STILL camp with camnet. With a time limit on camnet, they can't camp as much as they would like because it would drain. Camping on the spy side is being stealthy. Its not camping. You wanted a stealth game. Being stealthy requires sometimes for NO MOVEMENT. You wait in the shadows...you wait for your next move. Mercs stare at camnet waiting for you to make your move, and the first glimpse, you don't really stand a chance. AS SOON as you're seen there is direct interaction. Your location is blown because a merc can just sit in a spot inaccessible to a spy. Its not that complicated. We all obviously play with camnet. Its use of infinite time is easily one of the most overpowering things in the game. The visions don't even matter, because you can just stare at your screen for such a long time. I really don't see how this is a hard concept and why people need the mercenary side to be that much easier with a camera placed in every room that you can stare at. We suggested a while back for having a room that had a camera system in it that you would have to go to if you wanted to check things out. That didn't fly. No visions/better placement are two great ideas, and simple ideas, but neither fix the problem of camnet being an over powered gadget. Placement won't matter as much because you can zoom to full room, and then zoom in to specific locations. The visions won't change much because most people don't even need them to know if something is moving or not. I understand you may not "like" the idea. The point of these forums is to help balance certain issues that the devs will ultimately decide. In fact, I would love to hear some input from the devs on the matter since people have no real counter aside from it being "gay" or "queer". Both of those inputs obviously mean that people have a great idea about what they're talking about.

The reason why an interesting and yet creative debate ought to be shut down just because you make a big act out of someone's input is beyond me, Westfall. Besides, there are these things they call private messages.

Maybe you should tell that to roberto then yea? The thread is going to continue to flame on regardless because several people don't give actual input. i.e.:

All you queers that think that mercenary equipment should have a limited energy charge like spy with his shocker and cloak... are queers. Camnet being limited goes back to the issue of stealth. By what I've read, most of you want aggro to be non-existent in PS. Limiting camnet won't do that for you. Camnet encourages spies to "AVOID" being on mercs sight... "STEALTH". If you think limiting mercs viewing accessabilities will do any good for the stealth vs aggro debate, yer wrong.

camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD

im with Rambo, first i thought i was with westfall too but, "timelimit on camnet"? are you kidding lol!!! dude just cause u have had trouble against mercs who use camnet dosent mean u can propose an idea to ur personal advantage, just use teamwork or outsmart the god damn merc who cant really see what the hell is going on infront of him.

its funny because your idea is so gay.

so your sayin there is no reason for timed camnet, its just childish naggin of urs because u just dont want it to be like that.

bull shit, u must have a reason u just dont wanna say thats why i supposed u were having trouble with mercs using camnet.

plus its a lame idea anyway, most of PS comunity wants a game that ubi was never able to polish off, a more realistic game.
putting a gay time limit on a device that in real life wouldnt have timelimit (or at least not in seconds or even minutes) is dumb

also the flashlight battery idea i think is lame i mean, how often do u change batteries on ur flashlight, give me a fuckin break or just buy a new fuckin flashlight lol.

spies take too many risks as it is already having to count on top of them all is simply unrealistic, lame, and gay.

Just 2 awesome examples of really well thought out input. Obviously...

Can I get a devs input? I know its probably still "too far away" to decide anything and that beta testing will ultimately serve as the final conclusion, but thoughts, comments, and criticisms never hurt a soul.

[Westfall]

Sorry for dbl post

I disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......
In addition to that if 1 merc is tracking the spy with camnet and the other is trying to kill him that gives the other spy an opportunity to either disable the camnet merc or to hack an objective . You just need to have teamplay .

Yes, there are ways around camnet: cams/surprise neck. The problem is that spies can't always access the merc and that sometimes if they try to get to him they either have to shoot something, or make noise in some manner. This one isn't all focused on team play as much as it is focused on the spies accessibility to the merc. If the spy can't get to the merc, it allows for camping. If camnet isn't placed in certain rooms near objectives, mercs can camp out near the objective that requires some sort of a breach that will trigger an alarm or environmental disturbance. Its easy that there are ways around camnet. The point is, not everyone is retarded when using camnet, which doesn't allow for ways around camnet. If a merc has potentially spotted you with it, and you try to remain still, he can wait until you fuck up and make the first move. Thats quite weak.

[frvge]

Could someone make a recap of the points of all sides? I tend to stop reading after a debate gets to a certain tone. Thank you.

As for another idea: what about a Merc showing up on the Spy's radar when he uses Camnet?

[Gawain]

westfall, you make yourself look like a fool if you insist that camnet can't be balanced by proper cam placement. there's absolutely nothing to discuss about that as club, orph etc proove. it's totally fine to dislike the general idea of camnet (like spekkio does), but your point totally fails.

what you also forget is that the goal of the game is not to incapacitate the mercs, the goal is to hack/protect objectives.
what do you care if a merc camps with his back to a wall in some point far away from you? while a merc spends time to find you with camnet, you can be on the move while he's totally immobile and blind to his direct sourroundings. a merc moves slower and often has to take longer paths than a spy, so every second he spends in camnet not finding a spy works strongly against him.
there's nothing wrong with spending time in camnet, there's something wrong if you can see the whole map in 3 seconds.

when i say "we all", i do mean all ct/future ps players. i didn't read anyone advocating less patroulling yet anywhere on this forum or sclamers or elsewhere...

i think the main problems with camnet can be traced back to ubi not providing any needed patches for the map balance.

about snakebit's tactic example: he's totally right that camnet makes a lot of gay tactics way more challenging to pull of.

prime example for me is club where it's a common tactic to hack garden for only 1-2s and quickly change or pretend to change the floor.

it's not that camnet forces the spies to play aggro, by contrast there are some situations where it counters aggro pretty well. for instance when your mate is aggroed in a camnet-sourveilled room and doesn't see shit because of flash/smoke/chaff, you can guide him out of trouble.

i know that most of you guys don't respect me very much, but at least try to listen a bit to someone like snakebit proven to be very competent.