****New Spy Gadget Idea ****

[Westfall]

westfall, you make yourself look like a fool if you insist that camnet can't be balanced by proper cam placement. there's absolutely nothing to discuss about that as club, orph etc proove. it's totally fine to dislike the general idea of camnet (like spekkio does), but your point totally fails.

what you also forget is that the goal of the game is not to incapacitate the mercs, the goal is to hack/protect objectives.
what do you care if a merc camps with his back to a wall in some point far away from you? while a merc spends time to find you with camnet, you can be on the move while he's totally immobile and blind to his direct sourroundings. a merc moves slower and often has to take longer paths than a spy, so every second he spends in camnet not finding a spy works strongly against him.
there's nothing wrong with spending time in camnet, there's something wrong if you can see the whole map in 3 seconds.

There's nothing more for me to argue. I can counter everything you say, but honestly, you could counter it yourself. Its not hard to see the problems with an infinite camnet. There are differing views of the game and the things that should be implemented. Not everyone will be happy with the fixes that happen. I'm not going to continue trying to explain a really simple and useful idea if the counter argument lacks girth. I respect you as a player Rambo and granted you've gone off the deep end at some periods during the PS time frame, but I don't see how this idea is a struggle in order to see how much it would actually help the idea of this gadget and its balance. All of the arguments coming from people apparently have these easy tactics around it, but when the game is in full effect we will see what happens yea? In other words, I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Can only wish we saw eye to eye, but I guess thats what makes this game so unique. I'm putting it very nicely btw, b/c my real thoughts would just cause another riot over something so simple-minded.

And I don't make myself look like a fool. I want to make sure that this game will be good just like you. Proper placement and no visions to camnet are not the only fixes necessary to make it work well. The gadget is going to remain flawed.

Frvge's idea was pretty interesting.

[Gawain]

it's pointless to try to argue with someone not capable of logic more complex than 1+1. i'm 100% sure that you are totally wrong because my opinion is based on pure logic while yours is based solely on personal preference.

[frvge]

it's pointless to try to argue with someone not capable of logic more complex than 1+1. i'm 100% sure that you are totally wrong because my opinion is based on pure logic while yours is based solely on personal preference.

And instead of discussing my idea, you are ignoring it, and flaming on westfall.

[Snakebit.]

To Rambo: I don't consider myself very competent but i do have some knowledge on the subject . I just express my point of view and people should agree with it or disagree but also it would be nice if they stated why they do so. My opinion in no way is the only 'true' one.

To Westfall : Arguing for the sake of arguing is bad Imho .......

[Spekkio]

I disagree that hbs will take even 1 ss shot away. Everybody use it for checking things around themselves . Okay it might take 1 shot away if you look with hbs where the merc is and shoot at the same time , but i actually do that rarely when i use hbs . I usually have nades turned on when i start to shoot at a merc ......

You're making it sound like the HBS would recharge instantly, which is not the case. Also, the split second you activate it, it will take away a shot from the SS. Won't make a huge difference (and I don't think it has to), but it will still make one.

Well a difference in opinion . Actually i like my idea more that yours . This will make the hbs + cam a bit harder and it will take actual skill to do it . Oh and on the side note , may be you guys misunderstood me a bit or i didn't give a clear description but i meant it to work something like this : The scan wave reaches the target and detects it . The target appears on the radar even if it didn't move BUT it only shows the place where he was at the moment when then scan wave reached him . It won't show the Exact movement of the merc but just will show it partially . The spy will have to wait 3-4 sec again for the scan wave to reach the merc again so the gadget will be weakened a bit and the camp + hbs + cam trick will be harder and will take skill to time . If this idea is implemented there will be actually a variety between spy bullet ( Which gives exact information on the mercs movement all the time in a certain area or if it is put on a merc but is not infinite) and hbs ( Which will give Less information , will be harder to use and will take a bit more time to use but is infinite )

I think that this is a bit of a complex solution, and can easily cause confusion on the part of newer players trying to understand how HBS actually works.

I disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......

It's not really possible to cam a merc in camnet -- he will be able to come out of it and put mask on in time most of the time. Also, if he's smart, he'll be in a room with a camnet thing in it so that he can see you come to him. Camo is not a valid counter in CT because of the noise, but it probably will be in PS. As for staying out of the view of the cam, there are only so many routes in the map that the spies can take. It's not hard to use process of elimination to find out what those routes are.

The slower the spies move, the more potent camnet is. Gives the merc a higher likelihood of spotting you, and also eats a lot of time off the clock.

Spy traps are a useful item and they are good for some maps But not for all . Sometimes camnet is more useful than spytraps for me ( Orph / fact / Cinema etc ) . Certainly there are some very good places for spy traps , like the place at factory in machine near that vent , but there are not many of them . Spy traps force the spy to take chaff to counter it and if i remember correctly , you are against 'weapon counters' in Sc Spekkio .

You don't need chaff to counter spy traps considering that your teammate can remove them, they can be shot out, and you can usually find a way around them.

Vertigo is not a big map . Its not so hard to check it , it is just those long bridges that make it look and feel big . They take around 30 seconds to pass .... The buildings themselves are not so big .

I agree, but those long bridges are what make the map so hard to cover.

Edit : Spekkio's has a point about spy traps in factory and that vent in machine + The Mh start tactic at as merc . I can agree those are good tactics at factory but in general  they don't make the life of spies so much 10 times harder as camnet does on those maps . If there was no camnet you could just use the 'Fools' running strategy which actually me and Solidus used a lot even with camnet , but without camnet it would be 10 times more effective .

I agree that camnet is better on factory; my point was simply to counter your statement that it's impossible for the mercs to win on the map without it.

Note : Ill make a little explanation on what is 'Fools' running strategy . It is a situation when 1 spy and 1 merc and present in 1 sector where there are 2 or more objectives . That requires some teamplay to be done before that happens but in maps such as Rivermall and Factory it is not so hard because the map is huge and there are several ways to get to different places. Then when you have 1 merc and 1 spy in 1 sector you start to run in circles with the merc and the merc can't do a crap exept to pray for an insta nade , spray headshot or to have mines placed beforehand ( We usually take them off before we start doing this ). Lets take rivermall for example ----> Me and Soliduses tactic again . Snakebit goes to
Hi-fi and Solidus stays in main. Both mercs are split , now the round starts to depend more on solo skill than teamplay . Snakebit run's from Hi-fi down ---> Office by that roof thing [And the other way around]. It is usually impossible to counter this even with camnet . Solidus runs from vgames ----> Infokiosk [And the other way around]. He might not take whole nd with 1 run but doing it 2-3 times he will take 1 of them and the other is gonna be at 50-60%. So what do we get ? Hi-fi down or Office is taken . Infokiosk or Vgames is taken. Vgames or Info (which one is left ) is around 50%. There is still 2 more objectives in Hi Fi sector. You can still run around like an idiot there taking 1-2 sec althought it is a bit harder with Hi-fi up and Hi-fi down or office because of camnet .

Easily stopped by both mercs going to hi-fi. You can't win the game in the main area, but you can win it in hi-fi.

Also, even with camnet you'd have to have your partner come help you because it's always faster for the spy to move from office ---> lower hi-fi than the merc to walk there.

Camnet just makes those tactics 10 times more hard to use.

I agree. Therein lies the problem.

[Snakebit.]

I disagree that hbs will take even 1 ss shot away. Everybody use it for checking things around themselves . Okay it might take 1 shot away if you look with hbs where the merc is and shoot at the same time , but i actually do that rarely when i use hbs . I usually have nades turned on when i start to shoot at a merc ......

You're making it sound like the HBS would recharge instantly, which is not the case. Also, the split second you activate it, it will take away a shot from the SS. Won't make a huge difference (and I don't think it has to), but it will still make one.

Well a difference in opinion . Actually i like my idea more that yours . This will make the hbs + cam a bit harder and it will take actual skill to do it . Oh and on the side note , may be you guys misunderstood me a bit or i didn't give a clear description but i meant it to work something like this : The scan wave reaches the target and detects it . The target appears on the radar even if it didn't move BUT it only shows the place where he was at the moment when then scan wave reached him . It won't show the Exact movement of the merc but just will show it partially . The spy will have to wait 3-4 sec again for the scan wave to reach the merc again so the gadget will be weakened a bit and the camp + hbs + cam trick will be harder and will take skill to time . If this idea is implemented there will be actually a variety between spy bullet ( Which gives exact information on the mercs movement all the time in a certain area or if it is put on a merc but is not infinite) and hbs ( Which will give Less information , will be harder to use and will take a bit more time to use but is infinite )

I think that this is a bit of a complex solution, and can easily cause confusion on the part of newer players trying to understand how HBS actually works.

I disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......

It's not really possible to cam a merc in camnet -- he will be able to come out of it and put mask on in time most of the time. Also, if he's smart, he'll be in a room with a camnet thing in it so that he can see you come to him. Camo is not a valid counter in CT because of the noise, but it probably will be in PS. As for staying out of the view of the cam, there are only so many routes in the map that the spies can take. It's not hard to use process of elimination to find out what those routes are.

The slower the spies move, the more potent camnet is. Gives the merc a higher likelihood of spotting you, and also eats a lot of time off the clock.

Spy traps are a useful item and they are good for some maps But not for all . Sometimes camnet is more useful than spytraps for me ( Orph / fact / Cinema etc ) . Certainly there are some very good places for spy traps , like the place at factory in machine near that vent , but there are not many of them . Spy traps force the spy to take chaff to counter it and if i remember correctly , you are against 'weapon counters' in Sc Spekkio .

You don't need chaff to counter spy traps considering that your teammate can remove them, they can be shot out, and you can usually find a way around them.

Vertigo is not a big map . Its not so hard to check it , it is just those long bridges that make it look and feel big . They take around 30 seconds to pass .... The buildings themselves are not so big .

I agree, but those long bridges are what make the map so hard to cover.

Edit : Spekkio's has a point about spy traps in factory and that vent in machine + The Mh start tactic at as merc . I can agree those are good tactics at factory but in general  they don't make the life of spies so much 10 times harder as camnet does on those maps . If there was no camnet you could just use the 'Fools' running strategy which actually me and Solidus used a lot even with camnet , but without camnet it would be 10 times more effective .

I agree that camnet is better on factory; my point was simply to counter your statement that it's impossible for the mercs to win on the map without it.

Note : Ill make a little explanation on what is 'Fools' running strategy . It is a situation when 1 spy and 1 merc and present in 1 sector where there are 2 or more objectives . That requires some teamplay to be done before that happens but in maps such as Rivermall and Factory it is not so hard because the map is huge and there are several ways to get to different places. Then when you have 1 merc and 1 spy in 1 sector you start to run in circles with the merc and the merc can't do a crap exept to pray for an insta nade , spray headshot or to have mines placed beforehand ( We usually take them off before we start doing this ). Lets take rivermall for example ----> Me and Soliduses tactic again . Snakebit goes to
Hi-fi and Solidus stays in main. Both mercs are split , now the round starts to depend more on solo skill than teamplay . Snakebit run's from Hi-fi down ---> Office by that roof thing [And the other way around]. It is usually impossible to counter this even with camnet . Solidus runs from vgames ----> Infokiosk [And the other way around]. He might not take whole nd with 1 run but doing it 2-3 times he will take 1 of them and the other is gonna be at 50-60%. So what do we get ? Hi-fi down or Office is taken . Infokiosk or Vgames is taken. Vgames or Info (which one is left ) is around 50%. There is still 2 more objectives in Hi Fi sector. You can still run around like an idiot there taking 1-2 sec althought it is a bit harder with Hi-fi up and Hi-fi down or office because of camnet .

Easily stopped by both mercs going to hi-fi. You can't win the game in the main area, but you can win it in hi-fi.

Also, even with camnet you'd have to have your partner come help you because it's always faster for the spy to move from office ---> lower hi-fi than the merc to walk there.

Camnet just makes those tactics 10 times more hard to use.

I agree. Therein lies the problem.

It Dosen't regenerate instantly but it also won't take much energy to check for the merc + do you usually shoot the merc right after you checked where he was with hbs ?



I don't think its a lot more complex to understand. After using hbs for 2-3 times and Spy bullits for 2-3 times they will understand the difference easily.


It depends on your skill and timing if you can run from point a to point b without geting spoted by camnet.
Depends how you do it , what gadgets you use and so on .... And ofcourse a bit on luck .
As to the merc thing hiding in ambush or in unreachable places. Scworld gave the radar idea which is imho a very good idea.


It wastes a lot of time + you and your m8 get spoted easily if you both remove 1 spy trap. Chaff helps a lot with that against spy traps .... Well there are some unchaffable spy traps but there are not many of them.


I think i made a little mistake typing that it was impossible to win factory for merc without camnet. 90% of games would be won by spy on those maps without camnet . Ofcourse its not impossible to win as merc but it would still get pretty much onesided on those maps.


Well yeah there is that tactic to forget about vgames and info , but that leaves 3 nd's with 2 mercs . If 1 is downed its pretty much over if you don't get helped by god and Taz + hack 1-2 dosen't help that tactic either. That sheer tactic forces you to make unneeded sacrifices .

[Spekkio]

I think i made a little mistake typing that it was impossible to win factory for merc without camnet. 90% of games would be won by spy on those maps without camnet . Ofcourse its not impossible to win as merc but it would still get pretty much onesided on those maps.

As someone who used to not take camnet on factory at all, I think that you're exaggerating. I agree that the spies have an easier time without it, but I still think that the mercs would win well over 50% of the time even without camnet.

If 1 is downed its pretty much over if you don't get helped by god and Taz + hack 1-2 dosen't help that tactic either. That sheer tactic forces you to make unneeded sacrifices .

You have to do it anyway, though, because like I said a lone merc can't keep up with a lone spy who runs between office and lower hi-fi, even with camnet.

Also, it's usually pretty hard to neutralize a merc, so while the tactic is risky, it's not the worst thing in the world.

Mall revolves around the chokepoint from the front to hi-fi. With or without camnet, you have to stop the spies from getting back there or you're going to have a very hard time with it.

[Gawain]

i'm sorry, here you go frvge:

As for another idea: what about a Merc showing up on the Spy's radar when he uses Camnet?

the spies have very capable tools to locate the merc (hbs,bullets,stickies,tv) so the only thing this would do is give spies a camnet-in-use warning when the merc isn't shown on radar anyways. besides, if the merc is that far away that you don't know where he is, you better start hacking asap.

It's not really possible to cam a merc in camnet -- he will be able to come out of it and put mask on in time most of the time. Also, if he's smart, he'll be in a room with a camnet thing in it so that he can see you come to him. Camo is not a valid counter in CT because of the noise, but it probably will be in PS. As for staying out of the view of the cam, there are only so many routes in the map that the spies can take. It's not hard to use process of elimination to find out what those routes are.

all of those previous statements will hopefully be false for ps: camming a merc using camnet should be perfectly possible at any time, if it doesn't work, it's a bug. camo is very likely to get a boost and especially eax superhearing will be history, so that camo gets a better counter against camnet and that locating spies without camnet will get way harder. watching oneself in camnet is kinda stupid and only a trick to humiliate noobs trying to grab you. there may be only a few routes to take for the spy, but if you don't know what the spies are heading for, it doesn't help you shit over long term to reduce it to a handful of possibilities.

[Spekkio]

camming a merc using camnet should be perfectly possible at any time, if it doesn't work, it's a bug.

Actually, that gave me an idea: put a 1-2 second animation when going into and out of camnet so that you can't just instantly switch to it.

I still think it's gay for gameplay and should be removed, though.

[Roberto1223]

 "When did I say I was in charge of the forum? Good, glad you can point that one out."

"I ask that the devs lock it because its absolutely not progressing with this fuckin child. Lock please"

LOL whatever dude...


and im not the one talking like a smart ass quoting like 10 poeple and flaming them all so dont tell people im the one making a big deal out of this.

lol i hadnt noticed so many people were calling u gay in here... thanks for pointing it out on ur quotations now i know i was right.

i prefer being the idiot than the gay dude but thats just me..

you take yourself too seriously lol
________________________________________________________________________________________

oh and rambo, im not a smurf, ive been playing SCCT since online Beta of versus, and guess what i have not ever seen u play it online, i dont know u at all either. but i dont suppose that ur a noob or smurf just caus i dont know u.
i dont say i know u as an idiot or that ur most probably a smurf or noob, cause i really dont have anything against you so, wtf is ur reason to attack me? lol

just because we dont know eachother, and because maybe you think ur pro at SCCT,and that u know everybody in the community, dosent mean that im a smurf or noob.
i admit it im not a pro but i can say that i SCCT is one of my fav games and thats why im here.
so ur the fool for thinking u know the whole comunitie's members that arent on smurf accounts.

[Gawain]

Actually, that gave me an idea: put a 1-2 second animation when going into and out of camnet so that you can't just instantly switch to it.

this would prevent at least one merc from the use me and snakebit have in mind: to stop/make harder gay half-aggro moving-in-circles tactics and related bullshit. it would change nothing regarding stealth. i really don't know why you want to support totally gay tactics XD

[frvge]

@spekkio, that's possible. I've also got a more detailed idea about it, which would be extremely adjustable for all variations/ideas you can think of, but the problem is that it demands a different mind-set. In other words: it's maybe too different than what we're used to. Hit me up on xfire and we can discuss it.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Share please :)

[Spekkio]

this would prevent at least one merc from the use me and snakebit have in mind: to stop/make harder gay half-aggro moving-in-circles tactics and related bullshit. it would change nothing regarding stealth. i really don't know why you want to support totally gay tactics XD

The camo change will help stealth. Really, though, the best counter to camnet is always going to be moving as quickly as possible to keep ahead of the mercs. The gadget is just gay in design.

Running around in circles can be stopped by employing more static defenses and not allowing chaff to work through walls.

[Gawain]

it's ok to dislike the whole idea of camnet, especially on small/medium maps. but the nerfs you guys suggest are simply stupid. just let zed do his job well and we have no problem at all.

the whole spytrap/mine/chaff thingy is worth one or two new threads, i'll do that maybe later.