****New Spy Gadget Idea ****

[Gawain]

i'm fine with making grabbing/jumping a little easier by adjusting the hitbox/putting grab and push on different buttons/boosting camo/etc, but if it get's too easy, the whole game will cycle around nothing else.
no, i don't pair map security with merc neutralization, especially not camnet which doesn't block objectives like an alarm does. but i think we all agree that pt had too much and ct too little passive security.

[Ion.67]

Hey doesn't mean make it easier, he means make it still a central part of the game.

[Spekkio]

but if it get's too easy, the whole game will cycle around nothing else.

I never advocated making it "too easy." I am advocating making it easier than next-to-impossible to eliminate the mercs given teams of similar skill.

I do not like the solution to decrease the lives to two because that doesn't fix anything. You still have a situation where it's extremely difficult to score a kill, but one or two mistakes means the game.

I think you read the map security part wrong: I meant to increase passive defenses so that it's more difficult for the spies to maneuver quickly. That, in turn, will require the mercs to be out of your way to get stuff done moreso than now, which will be balanced by the fact that it's easier to do.

I should note that, in the words of Ubi when they responded to Zed's Pyrocryptic map submission, that Ubi's vision for SvM was to be centralized about the concept of infiltration. If you look at most of the maps from PT, they follow that pattern: it is extremely difficult to crack the security; in fact, you are pretty much forced to neutralize a merc to do so. However, once you're in, you have a lot more freedom to roam around and it's much more difficult to be pinpointed.

As a sidenote, I find it funny that you think two of the most "balanced" maps are two of the flattest, which allow very little possibility for the spies to get the jump on mercs even if the hitboxes were fixed.

Hey doesn't mean make it easier, he means make it still a central part of the game.

At least someone here has some brain cells! +1.

[Westfall]

Placement doesn't allow for mercs to stop camping. If anything, it enhances it. The same goes along with taking away visions. Making camnet "harder to find spies" with only makes camping a greater option. Yes, you can counter it, but its not hard for a merc to counter the spies counter.

plz elaborate, i don't get it.

If Mercs have camnet placed wherever it is, they camp with it. This is pretty much inevitable. Just because there will be "better placement" does not decrease the fact that mercs will camp with it. We were trying to stop mercs from camping with the camnet because its a lame tactic. Just because it gets placed somewhere "balanced" doesn't remove any camping, thus continually making camnet an over-powered POS. Most of the times the camnet is placed near an objective. If not its near a spy spawn point. SO, you can either tell when the spy is near an objective OR tell which route the spy is taking and cut him off. Really, we should make walls see through....

The idea of killing a merc when you jump on his dome is pretty reasonable. I think it would would have to depend on distance as opposed to position of landing. Is this what you meant when you said it Spekkio? Height, not landing section? Also, we need to take into consideration that you will probably be able to grab from more than one angle now, which is a hella plus.

[Gawain]

actually, having to stand still/"camp", is one of the main factors that balances camnet. unless you play factory, mercs camping with camnet are pretty weak opponents.

i fully agree that neutralizing a merc is too hard in ct, but it will get way easier in ps anyways: mt not showing static spies at all, no emf ghosting, a well working hit-box both for jumping and grabbing (and maybe separate keys for grabbing/pushing), boosted camo, boosted flash as no more free-vision-through-snipe-bug and more mercs running around with normal vision, no more lag charges, no more bugusing/jumping out of pushes/pulling down, ...
there really i no need to change anything else considering all those balance tweaks. i don't know about you, but at least one third of my grab attempts result in a push in ct, and a lot of players (even "good" ones) use bugs like shit.

[Spekkio]

The idea of killing a merc when you jump on his dome is pretty reasonable. I think it would would have to depend on distance as opposed to position of landing. Is this what you meant when you said it Spekkio? Height, not landing section? Also, we need to take into consideration that you will probably be able to grab from more than one angle now, which is a hella plus.

I was just pointing out that an option exists for it right now in CT, and that enabling said option helps balance otherwise imbalanced maps.

However, you do raise a good point: the height at which a spy drops on a merc in PS could affect damage dealt, with a certain altitude resulting in a kill.

[Westfall]

agreed

[kronf]

However, you do raise a good point: the height at which a spy drops on a merc in PS could affect damage dealt, with a certain altitude resulting in a kill.

Thats a very good idea.

Also camnet as it is in ct is ridiculous. Make a camnet room like in river mall or something, where you actually have to leave your guarding postition to use it or just remove it completely.

[frvge]

Interesting idea.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Interesting idea.

You say that every time it comes up =/

[Snakebit.]

A lot of people think camnet is an overpowered PoS because it allows a lot of 'lame' actions to be done .

At the momment , having read all of the posts , I have seen actually 2 'overpowering' Factors of camnet.

1st : ( Spekkio's factor ) It allows to check a lot of ground in matter of seconds which i agree is overpowering. A merc should be punished a bit for doing so . The 1-3 sec animation is a good idea . It would be nice if it took 1-3 sec to get in camnet and to get out of it also , to prevent being careless with camnet and to punish merc who won't hide while using it . This will narrow the use of camnet and the places where the merc will be able to active it while spies are being stealthy..... It would also require the merc to move to safe places to do so ----> Meaning he will be more exposed to cams and neck grabs. This will nerf camnet significantly but i guess than it will become a balanced item .

2nd : ( Westfall's Factor ) Aka Camping with camnet . I don't think this tactic is lame actually . Can you define what camping means ? For me it means standing in 1 place or in an area protecting something but isn't protecting the objectives the point of being a merc ? Than how can you consider camping being lame ? While you camp with camnet somewhere spies have only what i call 'passive' pressure which can be just ignored a lot of times . Camping with camnet means that atleast 1 merc is standing still and doing nothin ( Looking = doing nothing in this case ) which leads us to the fact that it can be easily countered with teamplay or just 2 spies doing something at the same time . You need 2 mercs to follow 2 spies. 1 can't follow both spies at the same time. Besides during Good competitive games it is more about pressuring your enemy into making a mistake than just waiting for it to happen out of luck.



Note : Don't mistake Spekkio's Factor and Westfall's factor . They are not one and the same . While i do think that using camnet should be punishable , still completely removing camnet or nerfing it to the point when 1 merc can't track or spot a spy is just well , wrong . If you remove it , you will dumb down the game a bit and will make few tactics 10 times more easier ( stealth AND aggro tactics ) . If you nerf it to the point when 1 merc can't track or spot a spy it will just become useless.

[Gawain]

you're right, what you call "westfall's factor" is bullshit. but i think with proper cam placement the merc get's "punished" enough for using camnet (loosing one slot, being static and blind to his surroundings), adding delays to everything is simply gay. if it turns out that it can't be balanced with good placement (and lightning etc), i'd rather see a picture quality nerf, angle/movability nerf etc. then a stupid delay. afterall, using camnet in aggro and semi-aggro situations to keep the overview is one of it's main uses and that's a good thing for gameplay.

[VaNilla]

'Westfall's Factor' is not bullshit at all, it severely harms the game because you need to have two spies exposing themselves usually to effectively counter the tactic, and this game isn't about exposure, rather the opposite. As for what Snakebit said about following spies... spies come to you and as mercs you have to scout them out (unless they're taking an objective or something in which case it's obvious), not vice versa. You talk about a camping merc with camnet as if it is just 'passive', well consider the paths spies take - when mercs camp the ways forward in tandem with camnet, it's extremely easy to remove spies. Camping is part of the mercs gameplay and is not lame, however in the case of camnet it really is.

I think my idea about having surveillance rooms is good (someone just lifted it straight out of my earlier post lol). It would mean that mercs can't camp without isolating themselves away from the action, however it would give mercs the advantage of being able to work in tandem using the camera network to find the spies and remove them. However, I think camnet essentially defeats the objective of scouting the spies out of hiding in the first place, and I think it shouldn't be there at all. The game wont become 10 times easier, it will actually require mercs to think more about what they're doing and the way in which they do it, in what's ultimately a rewarding way.

[Westfall]

Well, while you can say my factor is bullshit, which Rambo: you calling anything bullshit doesn't make me shutter given you're "I wants" that have been retarded this entire time on the forum....putting a nerf to Spekkio's factor, like adding 2-3 seconds to get in/out of camnet seems comparable to an energy drain. There is a "TIME" factor, which works for me. Still unsettled that an item can be infinite. I was hoping there would be some sort of a time penalty. Energy drain was the first thing that came to mind, and I was only suggesting it as a comparison to get away from Agent's gadget.

@ Snakebit: Your factors are cute. You defined camping just fine. Sitting in a spot, watching over an objective. This can be done with practically all of the objectives using camnet. I wanted a time limit on camnet because its ridiculous to have infinite use. That has absolutely no balancing qualities at all. Its unfortunate that this gadget is so needed to making finding a spy easier when a merc is already ridiculous as it is. With a handicap time of going in and out of camnet, it will make its use far more risky. I must have over looked that when Spekkio had said it.

Also, camnet being removed would save the game.

[Gawain]

westfall, spekkio's suggestion is like 10000000 times better than your one, live with it. i still think it's a bad one, but at least it doesn't encourage camping on the spy side and affects players of all skill levels.