Gadget ideas

[Kubanator]

Announcer broke the rules. Penalty was DEATH.

Ha I tricked the devs into coming out! Now, master ball!

[Spekkio]

It doesn't matter how many gadgets are available in-game. Because in the end people will outweight gadgets over another and end up with 4 required ones. If you don't have those 4 you'll be called a "noob" and needs to "L2P", also, switching one of the 4 gadgets for a random one to try to be unique will end up gimping yourself in every possible way you can think of.

My vote would be to just make 4 gadgets for each side, to avoid unneccesary time waste of outweighting gadgets and also to make it easier for new people to get into the game while avoiding them being called "noob" for picking the wrong gadgets.

Honestly, the only two gadgets I would say are "must have's" in CT are gasmask and sticky cams. You can throw chaff in their depending on the map and your playstyle. The only two gadgets that would "gimp" you are tazer and flares because they are redundant with innate merc abilities.

Beyond that, it was very possible to be successful with multiple gadget combinations. When the CT tourney was held a while back, Lochang and I placed second when Lo didn't use frag grenades as merc. This allowed us to have 6 spy traps and 6 mines on the map with a backpack, or 3 traps/6 mines/camnet. Essentially, between the two of us we had all 6 of the remaining merc gadgets outside of flares and tazer. As spy, one of use usually had alarm snares, so long as the map promoted a sneaky playstyle. The only gadget item that was not consistently used by us was camo.

I agree that the gadgets could use some balance tweaking, but "gimp" is the wrong word to use with the exception of gasmask and sticky cams. The main issue is that mercs have two gadgets that are absolutely useless, thus giving you a choice of 6: The tazer was made obsolete due to a more potent bullcharge, and an optional shotgun or uzi. Flares are obsolete due to multiple vision modes, a flashlight, and a laser that all allow you to detect spies in dark areas. However, all the spy gadgets have a place in the arsenal. Gasmask is absolutely necessary because it hard-counters two spy gadgets, thus leaving you with a realistic choice of 3/5 of the following: frags, mines, traps, camnet, and backpack. On the spy end, if camo and snares weren't so loud that a merc could pinpoint you for using them, it would be a much harder choice to choose the appropriate loadout.

The solution is not to reduce the number of gadgets, but to tweak them so that they have a realistic choice.

Firstly, SCPT allowed the spies to choose 4/6 gadgets; I do not understand why SCCT expanded the number of gadgets without expanding the amount you could take.

However, I would be in favor of making the gasmask and camo innate pieces of equipment. Camo can be tweaked to allow it to hard-counter MT; that is, the spy would go undetected by MT at any movement speed while camo was activated.

Now that we've knocked the number of selectable gadgets down to 7... there really isn't much anyone can do about flares and tazer being useless. Tazer will remain redundant unless the bullcharge is reworked and uzi/shotty are removed from the game. Since few people interested in PS would like to see that happen, we're stuck with a tazer that is doomed to uselessness. The next best option is to replace it with something that is more useful, but gadget ideas on these boards suck and I'm too busy learning to operate a nuclear reactor to think of something useful. The same goes for flares: so long as the merc has a flashlight, a laser, EMF, and MT all readily available, flares will remain absolutely useless. I would like to see spy traps tweaked so that the spies cannot run through them all and instantly remove every single one. I also think that spy traps are used much less often because poison mines overlap with them. Since poison mines give a big "whoosh" to the host, they both serve a similar function in detection, except a poison mine will kill you in 15 seconds while a spy trap will...do nothing. Camnet needs a nerf to A) remove special visions B) remove laser and C) have a short delay between switching cams and D) have some kind of timer/battery/something that limits its use.

On the spy side, things are more interesting. I already mentioned the above sound changes to camo and snares. Beyond that, the main issue with sticky cams is that it provides another way to KO the merc. That is a huge upside to the gadget that is not compensated by any other in the game. With an innate gasmask vs. wasting a gadget slot, this upside is somewhat offset. Still, without the KO feature cams would be useless. What may also decrease their effectiveness, at least to the point of considering not taking them, is better jump hit detection/grab box in PS and a tweak to infinite insta-heal. If the devs can get it so that you can actually land jumps as a client, that you can't funny punch your way out of any shitty situation, and that you can't just heal each other at whim, then sticky cams won't be as important. Tweak chaff so that it doesn't work through walls. Remove the ability for the mercs to infinitely, instantly remove spy bullets from each other, and make the HBS suck up the sticky shocker's energy (as with camnet, I am of the opinion that no gadget should be able to be used infinitely).

That's a start to having a more balanced gadget arsenal.

So, ultimately, there are two merc gadgets that are in need of replacement. Now it's a matter of replacing them with something useful and balanced.

[monterto]

I'm gonna go ahead and say the flares could be reworked into a battery gadget that would greatly increase the aperture and intensity of the headlamp for the duration of a charge or until it is switched off.

It could have a certian life that is fixed for one merc life, or it could be recharged at ammo depots, or it could recharge slowly like the camo suit.

[AgentX_003]

It doesn't matter how many gadgets are available in-game. Because in the end people will outweight gadgets over another and end up with 4 required ones. If you don't have those 4 you'll be called a "noob" and needs to "L2P", also, switching one of the 4 gadgets for a random one to try to be unique will end up gimping yourself in every possible way you can think of.

My vote would be to just make 4 gadgets for each side, to avoid unneccesary time waste of outweighting gadgets and also to make it easier for new people to get into the game while avoiding them being called "noob" for picking the wrong gadgets.

Honestly, the only two gadgets I would say are "must have's" in CT are gasmask and sticky cams. You can throw chaff in their depending on the map and your playstyle. The only two gadgets that would "gimp" you are tazer and flares because they are redundant with innate merc abilities.

Beyond that, it was very possible to be successful with multiple gadget combinations. When the CT tourney was held a while back, Lochang and I placed second when Lo didn't use frag grenades as merc. This allowed us to have 6 spy traps and 6 mines on the map with a backpack, or 3 traps/6 mines/camnet. Essentially, between the two of us we had all 6 of the remaining merc gadgets outside of flares and tazer. As spy, one of use usually had alarm snares, so long as the map promoted a sneaky playstyle. The only gadget item that was not consistently used by us was camo.

I agree that the gadgets could use some balance tweaking, but "gimp" is the wrong word to use with the exception of gasmask and sticky cams. The main issue is that mercs have two gadgets that are absolutely useless, thus giving you a choice of 6: The tazer was made obsolete due to a more potent bullcharge, and an optional shotgun or uzi. Flares are obsolete due to multiple vision modes, a flashlight, and a laser that all allow you to detect spies in dark areas. However, all the spy gadgets have a place in the arsenal. Gasmask is absolutely necessary because it hard-counters two spy gadgets, thus leaving you with a realistic choice of 3/5 of the following: frags, mines, traps, camnet, and backpack. On the spy end, if camo and snares weren't so loud that a merc could pinpoint you for using them, it would be a much harder choice to choose the appropriate loadout.

The solution is not to reduce the number of gadgets, but to tweak them so that they have a realistic choice.

Firstly, SCPT allowed the spies to choose 4/6 gadgets; I do not understand why SCCT expanded the number of gadgets without expanding the amount you could take.

However, I would be in favor of making the gasmask and camo innate pieces of equipment. Camo can be tweaked to allow it to hard-counter MT; that is, the spy would go undetected by MT at any movement speed while camo was activated.

Now that we've knocked the number of selectable gadgets down to 7... there really isn't much anyone can do about flares and tazer being useless. Tazer will remain redundant unless the bullcharge is reworked and uzi/shotty are removed from the game. Since few people interested in PS would like to see that happen, we're stuck with a tazer that is doomed to uselessness. The next best option is to replace it with something that is more useful, but gadget ideas on these boards suck and I'm too busy learning to operate a nuclear reactor to think of something useful. The same goes for flares: so long as the merc has a flashlight, a laser, EMF, and MT all readily available, flares will remain absolutely useless. I would like to see spy traps tweaked so that the spies cannot run through them all and instantly remove every single one. I also think that spy traps are used much less often because poison mines overlap with them. Since poison mines give a big "whoosh" to the host, they both serve a similar function in detection, except a poison mine will kill you in 15 seconds while a spy trap will...do nothing. Camnet needs a nerf to A) remove special visions B) remove laser and C) have a short delay between switching cams and D) have some kind of timer/battery/something that limits its use.

On the spy side, things are more interesting. I already mentioned the above sound changes to camo and snares. Beyond that, the main issue with sticky cams is that it provides another way to KO the merc. That is a huge upside to the gadget that is not compensated by any other in the game. With an innate gasmask vs. wasting a gadget slot, this upside is somewhat offset. Still, without the KO feature cams would be useless. What may also decrease their effectiveness, at least to the point of considering not taking them, is better jump hit detection/grab box in PS and a tweak to infinite insta-heal. If the devs can get it so that you can actually land jumps as a client, that you can't funny punch your way out of any shitty situation, and that you can't just heal each other at whim, then sticky cams won't be as important. Tweak chaff so that it doesn't work through walls. Remove the ability for the mercs to infinitely, instantly remove spy bullets from each other, and make the HBS suck up the sticky shocker's energy (as with camnet, I am of the opinion that no gadget should be able to be used infinitely).

That's a start to having a more balanced gadget arsenal.

So, ultimately, there are two merc gadgets that are in need of replacement. Now it's a matter of replacing them with something useful and balanced.

I agree with you totally on most points but the one point ill say is spytraps are very useful even the best of players are caught by them because the fact they are so innocent plus listening on peoples comm's is a big plus too

[Westfall]

Very well put Spek.

Wasn't there discussion to replace flares with phos nades as well? Also having them serve a greater purpose? Camnet needs a drain of battery. I remember the heated debate on that one.

Also the ability of healing people to full health needs to be nerfed or there would need to be an alternate gadget like DA had (with the exception of being able to use it on your comrade if he's hurt).

I have nothing more to add fo now since Spekkio's post should just be a sticky
unto itself on an outline of gadget inquiries/fixes.

[monterto]

Very well put Spek.

Wasn't there discussion to replace flares with phos nades as well? Also having them serve a greater purpose? Camnet needs a drain of battery. I remember the heated debate on that one.

Also the ability of healing people to full health needs to be nerfed or there would need to be an alternate gadget like DA had (with the exception of being able to use it on your comrade if he's hurt).

I have nothing more to add fo now since Spekkio's post should just be a sticky
unto itself on an outline of gadget inquiries/fixes.

forget the gadget and make the healing mechanic a maintained action. Both players stay put and a certain amount of health is restored over time as long as the action is sustained. A maximum for this might be added as well so that you cannot heal your teammate back to full or whatever the balance choice is. Or just limit the number of times one can restore health to prevent abuse of the healing mechanic.

[Westfall]

I understand what you're saying. It's like healing yourself or a teammate in L4D. I am definitely okay with this, but it still should not be an infinite heal advantage. In L4D you have to pick up kits or toss pills around. I would say you should be able to heal a spy once every 2 lives (if it's still 4 lives). It was definitely a good
pickup. How long should it take? Personally I think in the range of 5-7 seconds.

Edit: might make new thread since we've gone off topic here, but I definitely think a timed healing is a fix for plenty of gaming.... Unless the community thinks insta-heal should still stand, but really...This is a good fix to a controversial yet small issue.

[monterto]

I understand what you're saying. It's like healing yourself or a teammate in L4D. I am definitely okay with this, but it still should not be an infinite heal advantage. In L4D you have to pick up kits or toss pills around. I would say you should be able to heal a spy once every 2 lives (if it's still 4 lives). It was definitely a good
pickup. How long should it take? Personally I think in the range of 5-7 seconds.

Edit: might make new thread since we've gone off topic here, but I definitely think a timed healing is a fix for plenty of gaming.... Unless the community thinks insta-heal should still stand, but really...This is a good fix to a controversial yet small issue.

any more than 5 seconds would negate the benefit of healing due to time lost as far as I'm concerned

[Gawain]

i agree with spekkio's post except two points:
-no matter how many folks dislike it, go back to pt weapon system. it's just the smarter choice. combine this with auto-charge removal and a little range boost for tazer, and you got yourself a gadget worth taking again next to a higher map balance treshold.
-removing chaff's ability to work through walls would be too much of a nerf. with more mine and spy trap placement options and maybe a little change to the explosion radius running around spamming chaffs won't be possible.

[Spekkio]

-removing chaff's ability to work through walls would be too much of a nerf. with more mine and spy trap placement options and maybe a little change to the explosion radius running around spamming chaffs won't be possible.

Chaff working through walls is simply retarded. There has been no discussion or information that leads me to believe that there will be "more mine and trap placement options." You just made that up randomly. In fact, AFAIK the devs are planning on keeping the mine/trap placement limit to 3 per merc, which is fine by me. If the devs fixed the insanely long laser range on poison mines and spy traps and fixed the geometry issues with crooked lasers, this is a non-issue. Even if they didn't, there are only 2-3 spots that a chaff cannot disable a mine by being banked off of a wall instead of quick-thrown through it, and one of those spots (bdg C in Deftech) can't be bypassed by using the quickthrow, either.

The thing is, I don't think that taking chaff MUST allow the spy to bypass every single mine and trap on the map. There are teamwork heal remove and multiple routes for a reason.

Chaff has many different uses; it does not need to be able to be spammed through walls while running around to be useful. Spamming chaff will ALWAYS be possible so long as it goes through walls, particularly if you're smart enough to use sticky cams to survey the area first.

-no matter how many folks dislike it, go back to pt weapon system.

I wouldn't be opposed to it necessarily, but most people are. Unfortunately, I don't think people would change their mind even if the change was forced upon them. You're also talking about removing two weapons vice re-working one gadgets, so the payoff in terms of content is greater if a more suitable replacement to the tazer is developed.

Also, if you buff the tazer too much, you run back into the problem with PT where the merc was extremely deadly from both close and far away, and the tazer is one of those "must have" gadgets that we're trying to avoid.

forget the gadget and make the healing mechanic a maintained action. Both players stay put and a certain amount of health is restored over time as long as the action is sustained. A maximum for this might be added as well so that you cannot heal your teammate back to full or whatever the balance choice is. Or just limit the number of times one can restore health to prevent abuse of the healing mechanic.

Not a bad idea.

One thing I absolutely think should be removed is self regen for the spies. Nothing is more frustrating than a spy who makes it to a safe place with 5% health, sits around for 15 seconds in an inaccessible area and ends up with 80%.

[Westfall]

I understand what you're saying. It's like healing yourself or a teammate in L4D. I am definitely okay with this, but it still should not be an infinite heal advantage. In L4D you have to pick up kits or toss pills around. I would say you should be able to heal a spy once every 2 lives (if it's still 4 lives). It was definitely a good
pickup. How long should it take? Personally I think in the range of 5-7 seconds.

Edit: might make new thread since we've gone off topic here, but I definitely think a timed healing is a fix for plenty of gaming.... Unless the community thinks insta-heal should still stand, but really...This is a good fix to a controversial yet small issue.

any more than 5 seconds would negate the benefit of healing due to time lost as far as I'm concerned

but if you think about it, you would be getting a full health bar. The penalty should be a loss of time. Otherwise there shouldn't be this rapid heal with no time penalty. There has to be a
consequence with getting health....5-7 seconds.

Health regen. wasn't a bad thing, but it was WAY too much. It was also balanced and consequential because the spy had to remain still, wasting time but maybe fooling the merc about their whereabouts. I'm fine with cutting it out altogether though.

Edit: chaff through walls is and will always be one of the biggest bugs offered without being an actual bug to the game. It should absolutely be removed.

[Gawain]

There has been no discussion or information that leads me to believe that there will be "more mine and trap placement options." You just made that up randomly.

lennard told me that, and it was also in discussion several times before.

You're also talking about removing two weapons vice re-working one gadgets, so the payoff in terms of content is greater if a more suitable replacement to the tazer is developed.

even speaking about "content" in a svm game makes me sick. this is no damn mmorpg for crying out loud...
with weapons better at mid/low range than the rifle you got yourself a nice map balance problem  on every map where far weapon range isn't needed.

Also, if you buff the tazer too much, you run back into the problem with PT where the merc was extremely deadly from both close and far away, and the tazer is one of those "must have" gadgets that we're trying to avoid.

there's nothing wrong with a more deadly merc in trade off for one free gadget slot less. considering he has to use up another one for gasmask, he pretty much wasted 2 slots if the spies don't choose to attack him directly. don't get me wrong, i see the problem with the godlike pt merc, but then again he got an insanely long tazer range and the spies had no proper flashbangs, heartbeatsensor etc.

i totally agree on the healing stuff, it's plain annoying to kill a spy 99% time after time.

[Spekkio]

there's nothing wrong with a more deadly merc in trade off for one free gadget slot less. considering he has to use up another one for gasmask, he pretty much wasted 2 slots if the spies don't choose to attack him directly. don't get me wrong, i see the problem with the godlike pt merc, but then again he got an insanely long tazer range and the spies had no proper flashbangs, heartbeatsensor etc.

1) read above about making the gasmask innate 2) oh noes, the tazer uses a gadget slot. That downside alone is not enough to justify allowing it to negate the merc's main weakness with the rifle.

[Wh1tE_Dw4rF]

You shouldn't be limited by the amount of team heals you have. Instead give it a fixed internal cooldown, like 3 minutes or so. That way, 2 spies can't go aggro, retreat and repeat because after the first retreat the spy won't have his healing for another 3 minutes.

[VaNilla]

There's never been a problem with how healing worked before, there's no point in changing it.