Challenge based Rankings

[Spekkio]

The good part I see about rank is the fact that you get to see just what you may be getting into. Getting into your first game and playing against someone who has been playing since it came out is kind of a sucker punch. Leaves a bad first impression as you get your ass handed to you.

Actually, if you have any choice at all about the caliber of your opponent, the ranking system is already invalid. Like I said, you need to create a robust automatch system for rank to have any sort of validity at all.

Are you guys forgetting already all the people who started ranked servers and auto-kicked anyone who beat them? The only way you could reliably get ranked games was against people on your xfire list, and at that point why bother?

Yeah this thought of being able to temporarily bug/jam a fan to enter a new objective like you mentioned is one thing I had in mind.  Another similar idea would be the hack could temporarily open a secret passage/trap door such as a library bookshelf to an office with a computer or safe with a disk in it.  There are many creative routes that can be taken with this option.

Okay, let's imagine for a second that there are two human beings playing on the other team, and these two human beings happen to have a brain...and when you start hacking or whatever into an objective they know requires two people, those two humans with brains are going to know exactly where you are...then they're going to go there and shoot you...and since you don't have the element of surprise on your side, you're pretty much fucked.

If the game is 2v2, 2-person objectives aren't going to work out.

[Cronky]

Actually, if you have any choice at all about the caliber of your opponent, the ranking system is already invalid. Like I said, you need to create a robust automatch system for rank to have any sort of validity at all.

Are you guys forgetting already all the people who started ranked servers and auto-kicked anyone who beat them? The only way you could reliably get ranked games was against people on your xfire list, and at that point why bother?

Automatch would be nice, but at least an indication that this person isn't the same "Level" as you would be NICE(er) Also.

Situation:

I'm Mr. Newbie that hasn't played one game yet.

I auto join a game, to which this game doesn't have automatch so it just finds the first game it can find.

The game gets started up pretty fast without much being said.

Fumbling with controls I've never used I precede to get my ass handed to me round after round.

I get barraged by insults by my partner for having no skills.

Could I quit and find a new game? Yes.

Will I end up in a game with a better set of people? Perhaps

Will I end up in the same game because it was the first one that happen to have an open spot again? Perhaps

End Situation

Even the word "Experienced" after their name, or color coded names depending on Win/Loss Ratio. Who cares how it is figured out. The rank doesn't have to be because of "Ranked" games, but just so you have an indication that you are on the same level as the people you are fighting.

At the start of this games life, yes, everyone is going to be crap. A year or two down the road if this game is packed with people; not everyone is going to be at the same level of skill... Thus "Rank" would be helpful. Or mandatory "Boot Camp" area much like Halo... Though that was implemented with the rank too.. Hrmm...

[Spark Mandriller]

Automatch would be nice, but at least an indication that this person isn't the same "Level" as you would be NICE(er) Also.

But what about the proud CT tradition of having like a billion smurf accounts?

[Cronky]

That kind of got brought up in my before posts.

There is always a way around the ranking system of any game. I'm not saying 100% of people will follow suit, but if incentives are made for those who stick with the same. (Such as the stat tracking with the "Medals" as re-imaged by me from Ston3's Post)

Unless there is some unimaginably big ranking/AutoMatching thing such as Spekkio said, then it's pretty much running on the Honor System.

The idea of this little Rank that is just filled in with Data they are already tracking. Re-purposing just slightly to give the illusion of fair game.

[Spark Mandriller]

Proud traditions take more than medals to be forgotten.

[LennardF1989]

On the contrary, I provided my opinion which is as good of an action as any for continuing a discussion.  I also hate it when people do that.  I was only saying I don't remember what people thought.

I just had to say it, maybe my interpretation was a bit wrong though, sorry.

Something simple like it recording the amount of hours you play, or your game count could make it even out a little bit. In the end though, everything can be hacked, cracked, and/or abused... So it's not like you can guarantee 100% Legit-ness when it comes to Ranking no matter how it's done.

Hacked, cracked AND abused? Please elaborate... We are already taking a lot of measurements against hacking of any kind.

[Cronky]

Proud traditions take more than medals to be forgotten.

Again, 100% commitment isn't expected. Incentives for actually playing on one profile/account would be an attempt to keep the "Traditions" to a low. Medals just being... Something cause I needed an example. You put up the idea of Rewards which is but another reason. Who would want to wait 100 hours for another "Prize" (Another being the same prize you have on your first account)? It brings up the problem of Idle Servers like Frvge said though.

@Lennard

No matter how much you put into Anti-Hacking regimens you can never get a game that will be Hack-Proof. It's like saying that there is an effective Anti-Pirating technique. Yes there are some good ones in theory, but in the end... If it can be built, it can be destroyed and rebuilt slightly differently.

[VaNilla]

I never said that there should be a reward for completing such challenges (besides gaining points, but that's just to distinguish rankings), but nevertheless, I think that it would give people something to aim for whilst playing the game besides just beating the other team. I believe that it could only add to the experience :).

[Cronky]

I never said that there should be a reward for completing such challenges (besides gaining points, but that's just to distinguish rankings), but nevertheless, I think that it would give people something to aim for whilst playing the game besides just beating the other team. I believe that it could only add to the experience :).

That idea is a great one, but Frvge brought up the idea of Achievement Servers much like other games. People just playing for the sake of points, and not actually playing the game.

What I took from your post, while keeping away from the touchy server problem is that the Challenges should just be along the same lines as Halo's Medals. I've thought up quite a bit of them (As anyone who thinks about it for a second could). While it wouldn't GIVE you anything except another stat to track; it would be a motivation for some to pick up different styles of gameplay.

Rocket's idea was to put stuff like I assume TF2 has. Where you get extra little things randomly when you play (But perhaps at certain intervals of time). Again, the Idle servers come up... So either it would have to be like TF2's Hats, or the things you got would have to be minimally different.

All three ways could be implemented and it would actually be fun as hell. No one is a bad idea, just if you give Something big that ends in a rank or reward, it is to be assumed that people will try to "Cheat" to get those. You give no real reward, and no one is really going to care.

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A ranking (Not leaderboard style, but just experience) should be implemented though. Base it off Win/Lose ratio or something. Varying the factor by making it not start counting till you hit 20 games or something. Your first 20 games aren't FREE games, they just don't change your "Rank" till you get to that point.

(A person who wins their very first game would have a crazy ratio to Rank score. So that's what the 20 games are for. You are Newbie till 20 games in... then it gets calculated into whatever it could be)

Since an AutoMatch option would supposedly take a lot of time, it'd just give you a little heads up into what you were about to go against.

The downside being that you don't exactly KNOW what your opponent Won or Lost against. If they lost 20 times to really good people then it wouldn't say much about their Skills against someone New.

Also on top of that, I understand what Spekkio said about having, "A Decision on who you fight ruins ranks". Since if you only look for people who have Lost a lot to try and raise your ratio... then you aren't being fair... unless an Automatch was Made, or a "Games Played" kind of barrier was made.

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Or a second thought is different Lobbies. Not "Free/Ranked", but rather more "Casual/Pro". People who actually want to play the game seriously would go to Pro. Those who want to dick around would go to Casual. The thought is that each holds your ranking regardless of lobby.

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Those are just Ideas, by far they are not perfect or well thought out.

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Rocket brought up the good point of making "Dummy" accounts. While there is options to foil that plan, such as perhaps finding a way to somehow limit the amount of Accounts on a specific IP or something... I think that's the point of the first part of this long post.

Playing just for shits and gigs is alright until people start to abuse is. The answer is to make a incentive for actually sticking to your account instead of just playing on any.

Maybe the rewards in Rocket's Idea could be Skins for Spy and Merc. No affect to gameplay, but something you wouldn't want to wait around for again... Unless you're a person who doesn't actually care for what they play as.

Which brings the point up again that there is no way to guarantee 100% of people to follow any given plan. The more reasons you give to the people will ultimately keep that down to a low though (In Theory).

[frvge]

I want to decouple account and displayname, just like the forums. So messing around will be possible if you change your display name. I'll have to talk it over with Lennard first.

[CurdyMilk]

I think stats, medals, and skins are fine, but don't add any rewards that will have an impact on the gameplay.  There should not be any advantages or disadvantages to anyone because it can destroy the fun.  Also, I prefer to not have auto matching.  I like to look at pings and game titles before joining.  You have more control of who you are actually playing with, which makes it more fun and balanced.  The only possible automatch system I can see working is having noob, meds, experienced, and pro sections where you decide which zone to join.  But even with that, you cannot see the pings or who is in the games.
And a response to the actual topic:  An easy fix to colored bars vs. numbers is to have colored numbers.  :o

[Cronky]

I don't know...

Having Phosphorus Grenades as a Reward might be kinda cool ;)

Greatest grenades on SvM ever!

**
Sneaking up on a merc only to see a grenade land next to you...

Split second of eye gouging fear as you go into shock knowing you can't escape death...

...Big Poof of Green smoke...

Sigh of relief as you put your game-face back on...

2nd Grenade...

TO BE CONTINUED!!!!
**

[Farley4Fan]

I'd love a competition to see who can figure out how to unlock phosphorous nades first.  Make some super secret way to unlock them and we'll find it.

[Spekkio]

Automatch would be nice, but at least an indication that this person isn't the same "Level" as you would be NICE(er) Also.

Yea, but in reality very few people adhere to the honor code.

My personal experience with CT is that I rarely played rank. On the few times that I did, I think I was merely a level 2 or 3...so I'd always get accused of being a smurf and kicked after a game, or just get kicked before the game because I was assumed to be a noob. Since it was too late for me to get games against anyone decent, my level was pretty much stuck at an artificially low level.

Rank isn't a good indicator of skill at all. There are too many people who smurf, too many people who pick on lower skilled opponents to rank up, and too many people who find loopholes to avoid losing points when they lose. All this adds up to inflated ranks for the losers who actually care, and deflated ranks for those who don't care enough to put up with all the frustration that attempting to play ranked games entails.

I don't recognize your sn, so I don't know if you actually tried to play ranked games extensively when PT/CT were relatively popular. It just didn't work.

[Cronky]

You see, that is why I put the option out there of a rank regardless of a "Ranked Game".

Rather Casual/Pro or whatever names work nicer areas. You gain a... Level or Rank or Something for each game you play, but when people see this rank. You know what to expect.

Perhaps a very simple rank. Not like, "I'm the #1 PERSON IN THE WORLD!!!", rather just a cue that they have played 30 or so games.

Meaningless ranks other than the fact that they have done more than nothing.