Interaction Solutions?

[Cronky]

No it's not.

(This short style replying... I'm starting to get the hang of it)

[I <3 U]

No it's not.

(This short style replying... I'm starting to get the hang of it)

yes, it is, and no, you're not.

[Cronky]

No it's not.

(This short style replying... I'm starting to get the hang of it)

yes, it is, and no, you're not.

You're Wrong

;D

[Spekkio]

Ah, the old "testing" thing. We should test spies with rocket launchers too, since we're already throwing stealth out the window with this idea.

[tigaer]

Ah, the old "testing" thing. We should test spies with rocket launchers too, since we're already throwing stealth out the window with this idea.

We're modeling it right now. It's gonna be the RPG-7, since the Mercs are actually terrorists. Mercs can also put bananas down that spies can slip and fall on, since their back would be broken from such a fall, they can't move untill killed.

...stupid idea.

[Farley4Fan]

If you keep getting berserked when you go for jumps you need to be less obvious. Letting spies jump berserking mercs would make it way too easy, shit'd suck. Imagine Club floor 2 or something, it'd be impossible for mercs to avoid it.

It's not like mercs are gonna have bullshit MT to automatically detect you anymore. If they have time to see you coming and react with a berserk, you should die. Instead of, what, they see you coming, react in time to berserk, and you knock them out anyway? What kind of bullshit is that?

What he said.

The problem with jumping was the too-generous host hitbox and practically non-existent client hitboxes. Fix those, and jumping will be fine.

This is true but I still think that a direct foot-to-head jump while the merc is berserking should at least not knock down the spy and maybe stun the merc a bit (blur his screen for a second).  If you guys think you can get lag-less matches and small hitboxes to work perfectly then why not?  Low priority I know but little adjustments to gameplay like this that would make it more refined and less clunky are welcome.  Just saying.

[Cronky]

This is true but I still think that a direct foot-to-head jump while the merc is berserking should at least not knock down the spy and maybe stun the merc a bit (blur his screen for a second).  If you guys think you can get lag-less matches and small hitboxes to work perfectly then why not?  Low priority I know but little adjustments to gameplay like this that would make it more refined and less clunky are welcome.  Just saying.

Ooo! I like that!

Instead of who WINS in the situation.

Berserk + Mario Stomp = Even situation. Spy doesn't get a Merc KO. Merc doesn't get a Spy KO.

Spy gets time to run because of a perfect, yet failed jump. Merc doesn't get an insta-kill because he did a fail-safe move.

(Again, in my mind alone the Auto Aim for the jump is toned down, so Jumping on a Merc's head actually takes a good, calculated jump. Not just... Fall from the heavens and Ooop, landed on his head. Of course there will be those that HAPPEN to get a headshot by pure luck, but you can't account for those)

[Spark Mandriller]

Cronky, have you ever played CT? Because I mean I'm not sure if you've noticed or not but spies aren't actually meant to go for frontal confrontations. That's why their elbow just knocks mercs back, but mercs can charge and ko/do damage. If a spy gets seen while he attacks he is actually meant to lose. If a spy is trying to sneak up on a merc but the merc turns and sees him the spy is meant to lose. If a spy is trying to jump a merc but the merc sees him do it the spy is meant to lose.

If you try to jump a guy and he berserks you then you should die. Just like if you go to grab someone and they turn around at the last second and charge you. You attacked, you failed, you should pay for it. You shouldn't get away because your attack was so perfect, because if they had time to notice what you were doing and counter it then it wasn't really perfect was it?

[LennardF1989]

Cronky, have you ever played CT? Because I mean I'm not sure if you've noticed or not but spies aren't actually meant to go for frontal confrontations. That's why their elbow just knocks mercs back, but mercs can charge and ko/do damage. If a spy gets seen while he attacks he is actually meant to lose. If a spy is trying to sneak up on a merc but the merc turns and sees him the spy is meant to lose. If a spy is trying to jump a merc but the merc sees him do it the spy is meant to lose.

If you try to jump a guy and he berserks you then you should die. Just like if you go to grab someone and they turn around at the last second and charge you. You attacked, you failed, you should pay for it. You shouldn't get away because your attack was so perfect, because if they had time to notice what you were doing and counter it then it wasn't really perfect was it?

Unfortunately, I agree. Yes, it sucks, but yes, it's also the truth. If you want to give the spy a powerboost, you have to look into something else rather than what a mercenary can do.

[Cronky]

Cronky, have you ever played CT? Because I mean I'm not sure if you've noticed or not but spies aren't actually meant to go for frontal confrontations. That's why their elbow just knocks mercs back, but mercs can charge and ko/do damage. If a spy gets seen while he attacks he is actually meant to lose. If a spy is trying to sneak up on a merc but the merc turns and sees him the spy is meant to lose. If a spy is trying to jump a merc but the merc sees him do it the spy is meant to lose.

If you try to jump a guy and he berserks you then you should die. Just like if you go to grab someone and they turn around at the last second and charge you. You attacked, you failed, you should pay for it. You shouldn't get away because your attack was so perfect, because if they had time to notice what you were doing and counter it then it wasn't really perfect was it?

I played the Hell out of CT and PT in their Prime. That's how I've gotten to this conclusion. Berserk to me was a move that was made for the Console, that PC players just happened to get. A move that was meant to help console players defend their back because it was actually a risk to take the time to turn around. The restrictive controls actually justifying the move. PC player have no excuse. It's faster to turn around and shoot the crap out of something... But wait, you also have the ability to negate all jumps too.

(If it was up to me, this game wouldn't even have the move. I am open to ideas though, so I went along with this one since it... Made sense to balance it)

Maybe this would lead to more "Aggro" spies though. I understand where you're coming from, but you misused my example to further your own. I don't think it's just me that actually had to take a running step before jumping. One little blip on the Merc's detector that was purely because... Velocity isn't gained in a stand still. Unless he was physically right under me (In which case I wouldn't need to jump) there wasn't much else that could be done. This of course being in the Content of a "Deathmath". Story Modes were about distraction, rather than lethality. Even at that though, this new "Lose Lose" as I was quoted for, but made up by FarleyFan, isn't going to change that.

If you played the game as much as you make it seem, I bet you knew where that one blip was coming from. I bet with a good chance you knew what was about to happen. If you used Berserk it was a Win Win... Either:

A.) You hit the spy and now you can kill him

or

B.) You didn't hit the spy, but with the controls like they are. The only time you were actually in danger was that mandatory "Pause" Right after the move that lasts a fraction of a second.

In the end I say... Test It. Wowie, I don't think Beta is meant for a final game, but instead a means to Balance and Test their game in a widespread setting. Some options having to be cut, and new ones having to be made.

This idea just being on the list of stuff that is unsure.

@Lennard: I'm just confused because in a post you said in another thread today (Gadgets one) you use the same line we've all heard, "Different Game, Different Engine". When it comes to this idea though I'm supposed to believe that it's going to be exactly like CT? I find that a little hypocritical.

[Spekkio]

Berserk doesn't negate all jumps; it only negates jumps when the merc sees the spy attempt them.

Since that seems to be the central thesis of your argument, well...

I do agree that the 'zerk could use to be weakened somewhat, particularly if they are able to fix the problem where your gun shoots air instead of bullets due to massive packet losses. Namely, I think that the merc shouldn't be able to jump during the recovery time from both the bullcharge and the 'zerk. I'd also like to see the bullcharge only knock back spies, not knock down spies, have no slowdown if the bullcharge hits nothing, and I'd also like to see the merc's be invulnerable to being grabbed after hitting a spy with a bullcharge.

But the 'zerk is a legitimate counter to a spy trying to jump on him. Without that, they have no counter at all except to completely avoid areas where the spy can jump on them...that pretty much means any stairwell, any area with rails, etc.

I think lennard's point is that they are trying to keep the stealthy gameplay from PT and CT...which means that they will keep the design where spies continue to lose if they attempt direct attacks on the mercs.

[Cronky]

Hahahah, You found me out!

It's the idea that some things aren't avoidable. That a needed step, is a failed step. That unless they are right below you, or you are actually fooling them with an alarm snare... You're SoL when it came to jumping.

This idea of a probability on this new option doesn't give the spy anything new. Fail Spy is still Fail, but that doesn't mean that Fail Spy can do the same move again. The area in which he got away with the first time isn't 100% guaranteed.

OR

I got it!

Why not make the spies first step not show up on the detector (Seems much harder to me as to how this would work). Solves my problem without anyone losing their move that I still find unjustified because of the controls for the PC.

Eh? EH?

;D

Edit: You CRAFTY Man! Adding in large chunks of stuff after posting a response! I never saw it coming! Perhaps with those changes you mentioned I could see Berserk in a new light. As of right NOW though, not what's happening.

[Spekkio]

wtf are you on about?

You do realize you can jump on a merc without making the spy stand up, right? You also realize that doing this won't ping the merc's reticle, right? And... as you so aptly pointed out, if you really want to stand up, you can always utilize snares, which I presume won't make such an obnoxiously loud noise when shot like in CT.

[Cronky]

Crouch Jumping is pretty much as handy as standing still and jumping.

I like actually going somewhere when I jump in the air. Running jump does that, even if it's only one step. Perhaps it's just because CT was weird about that (At least for me) when I was playing. That there were pretty much 3 Jumps that could be made:

1: The Stand Still Jump and look stupid

2: The Jump that makes it 1 step in front of you

3: The Jump that actually went somewhere

I meant for Alarm Snares to be Sarcastic also. Since I don't know about YOU, but I wasn't fooled by Alarm Snares for more than about 3 seconds (Someone just decided to run like hell for no reason? Hrmm...). Unless Planted EVERYWHERE around me, there wouldn't be enough to distract me from a Second Noise.

[Spekkio]

You obviously don't know how to use snares, then. The idea isn't to FOOL the merc into thinking a spy is there, it's to mask your movement. And they do it quite well.

Crouch jumping is plenty useful (as host, at least)...doesn't quite have the range of running, I agree...but there's pluses and minuses to everything.