How's the gadget balancing going?

[I <3 U]

okay now you're a pussy as well! defend yourself motherfucker! only joking <3 you.

[Spekkio]

In an effort to get some actual discussion going, here's what I'd like to see:

Universal Change: Gadgets do not refill when you die. Spies can obtain refills by seeking out ammo boxes, which will also have an animation to put the spies at risk for doing so. Mercs can get refills via backpack. 

Spy:
Smoke: Reduce slow effect to PT levels, shorten KO timer by 1 second
Chaff: No longer works through solid walls
Flashbangs: Just need to be less finicky. Mercs can't negate effect by sniping.
Sticky Cams: To start I'd like to see the KO timer be variable depending on how you knocked out the merc... a grab KO should be the longest, followed by jumping, and finally camming. Either that, or remove the KO effect altogether and just have cams slow the merc. I know this seems unfathomable right now, but I'm going off the assumption that the PS team will fix the finicky jumping and grabbing to the point where cams aren't your only realistic KO option most of the time.
Snares: Have a firing sound effect more similar to PT
Camo: Inherent gadget to the spies, completely undetectable via motion tracking. The amount of energy drain is directly proportional to your move speed.
HBS: Uses energy while in effect
Spy Bullets Remove ability for mercs to take them off each other, stationary mercs show up on radar function.

Merc:
frags: These are fine if they fix the bug, although I think 5 to start is a good number
Mines: Shorten the max laser range on laser and poison mines to PT levels
Spy Traps: These are a bit tough...there has to be some way to stop the spies from running through all of them and then removing them all in one shot. I would say make them unremovable by your partner, and spy trap timers stack. If the spy wants to sacrifice 5 minutes of the game to let the spy trap timers run out, that's his choice.

If spy traps become too unavoidable, a medium solution would be to put a cooldown on the trap removal ability, but spy traps still stack. So if you run through 3 spy traps, your partner can remove the first one but you'll still have to wait out the remaining 3:20.
backpack: Fine as-is
Gasmask: Inherent gadget to the mercs
flares: The game has a new engine, so these might prove to be useful. Still, I have my doubts considering that the mercs have a lot of inherent ways to help them see in the dark as it is. So my solution is to make them into phospho grenades...gas effect of phospho grenades takes away health over time, in addition to marking the spy when he leaves the cloud.
Tazer: Lengthen the range to an average between PT and CT, limit 5 shots. KO timer lowered to bullcharge KO time. Refillable w/ backpack.
Camnet: I'm going to preface this by saying that if camnet were removed from the game entirely, I wouldn't shed a tear. Regardless whether or not they can balance it, I think any gadget that results in the merc sitting in one spot shifting through cameras to find spies instead of walking around creates stale gameplay.

Having said that, I assume the devs are going to try to make this godforsaken gadget "work" in the game and not be incredibly overpowered or completely useless. My suggestion is this: remove special visions, remove laser. Toggling between cameras has a 2 second wind-up where the spy can see the next camera in the cycle flashing, and then has another 3 second "cool down" where you can't switch cams to another room. Coming out of camnet has a 1 second turn off animation where the merc cannot move. Times are subject to change, of course, but I think that's a good start.

Also, with these changes the teams will choose 4/7 gadgets instead of 4/8...considering that you could choose 4/6 in PT, I don't think that's unreasonable. If people don't like the decrease in choice from having a gadget "forced" on them, allowing 5/8 would definitely open the game up more.

[CurdyMilk]

In an effort to get some actual discussion going, here's what I'd like to see:

Universal Change: Gadgets do not refill when you die. Spies can obtain refills by seeking out ammo boxes, which will also have an animation to put the spies at risk for doing so. Mercs can get refills via backpack. 

Spy:
Smoke: Reduce slow effect to PT levels, shorten KO timer by 1 second
Chaff: No longer works through solid walls
Flashbangs: Just need to be less finicky. Mercs can't negate effect by sniping.
Sticky Cams: To start I'd like to see the KO timer be variable depending on how you knocked out the merc... a grab KO should be the longest, followed by jumping, and finally camming. Either that, or remove the KO effect altogether and just have cams slow the merc. I know this seems unfathomable right now, but I'm going off the assumption that the PS team will fix the finicky jumping and grabbing to the point where cams aren't your only realistic KO option most of the time.
Snares: Have a firing sound effect more similar to PT
Camo: Inherent gadget to the spies, completely undetectable via motion tracking. The amount of energy drain is directly proportional to your move speed.
HBS: Uses energy while in effect
Spy Bullets Remove ability for mercs to take them off each other, stationary mercs show up on radar function.

Merc:
frags: These are fine if they fix the bug, although I think 5 to start is a good number
Mines: Shorten the max laser range on laser and poison mines to PT levels
Spy Traps: These are a bit tough...there has to be some way to stop the spies from running through all of them and then removing them all in one shot. I would say make them unremovable by your partner, and spy trap timers stack. If the spy wants to sacrifice 5 minutes of the game to let the spy trap timers run out, that's his choice.

If spy traps become too unavoidable, a medium solution would be to put a cooldown on the trap removal ability, but spy traps still stack. So if you run through 3 spy traps, your partner can remove the first one but you'll still have to wait out the remaining 3:20.
backpack: Fine as-is
Gasmask: Inherent gadget to the mercs
flares: The game has a new engine, so these might prove to be useful. Still, I have my doubts considering that the mercs have a lot of inherent ways to help them see in the dark as it is. So my solution is to make them into phospho grenades...gas effect of phospho grenades takes away health over time, in addition to marking the spy when he leaves the cloud.
Tazer: Lengthen the range to an average between PT and CT, limit 5 shots. KO timer lowered to bullcharge KO time. Refillable w/ backpack.
Camnet: I'm going to preface this by saying that if camnet were removed from the game entirely, I wouldn't shed a tear. Regardless whether or not they can balance it, I think any gadget that results in the merc sitting in one spot shifting through cameras to find spies instead of walking around creates stale gameplay.

Having said that, I assume the devs are going to try to make this godforsaken gadget "work" in the game and not be incredibly overpowered or completely useless. My suggestion is this: remove special visions, remove laser. Toggling between cameras has a 2 second wind-up where the spy can see the next camera in the cycle flashing, and then has another 3 second "cool down" where you can't switch cams to another room. Coming out of camnet has a 1 second turn off animation where the merc cannot move. Times are subject to change, of course, but I think that's a good start.

Also, with these changes the teams will choose 4/7 gadgets instead of 4/8...considering that you could choose 4/6 in PT, I don't think that's unreasonable. If people don't like the decrease in choice from having a gadget "forced" on them, allowing 5/8 would definitely open the game up more.

The problem with not allowing chaff through walls is that it is impossible to get rid of some poison mines.  Also use binoculars if they can actually become useful along with a trip rope for spies.  IDK if it should be a teamwork gadget where one stands on either side of the doorway to hold it.  This way it is less common and more surprising to the merc when it is actually being used.  There that should do it.

[LennardF1989]

With inherent gadget you mean they are part of the default loadout no matter what?

[Spekkio]

The problem with not allowing chaff through walls is that it is impossible to get rid of some poison mines.

Not true. First, there are only a few spots in CT that are impassible without going through a wall, and most of them have to do with the bugged crooked lazer. It's called banking the chaff off the wall...use it. Secondly, you must've missed the part where I said to reduce the poison and laser mine range...that would pretty much take care of the rest. Third, since when does a quick throw chaff have to be able to disable any device you put down in order to be "balanced?" Maybe it's a good thing that you can put traps and mines that avoid easy chaffing. To take your argument one step further, you're implying that the game is completely imbalanced if you don't take chaff and bind it to one of your quick-throws. I can tell you that's completely untrue, as I only took chaff on maps where there are three lasers covering doorways and did just fine.

Failing any of that, you have 15 seconds to haul your ass to a medic station anyway, as well as partner healing.

I fail to see how chaff through walls is this hugely important "feature" that will make poison mines completely imbalanced if removed. What it will do is prevent spies from running around in plain site and spamming chaff to avoid running into proxies around the corner, and it will slow spies down a bit more when you put laser devices across doorways.

[Spekkio]

With inherent gadget you mean they are part of the default loadout no matter what?

More like a default ability no matter what, bound to a different key so you don't really access it like a gadget, but sure you can think of it that way.

[CurdyMilk]

Spekkio, you are putting words in my mouth that were never there.  All I said was that some poison mines could not be chaffed.  Period.  Some even when you shoot it out of the gun they could not be reached.  So that means all I want is for there to be a way to remove all mines.  If it involves shortening the distance like you said, then fine.  I was referring to the rare instances.  You act like I have not played CT before...

[Savior20061]

The way I see it, you modders will put in shit that honestly won't  be used, because it won't be that useful. That's just how it is.

[Farley4Fan]

Yeah the more I think about it the less I have a problem with chaff's inability to go through walls.  Is there a physics system in place yet?  How's it going?  If chaff's need to be banked off walls then there will need to be a reliable physics system. 

[Cronky]

Aside from these little questions, I think that list you made Spekkio was pretty well done.

Gadget Refill:

In saying this, do you mean that there will be Special Spy Ammo Crates? Or use the same as the Merc's?

Plus I assume you are to mean that these Ammo Crates aren't inside Spy Spawn, because if that was the case then it'd just be easier to give them a refill after death.

It seems a little unfair to force a spy to find an ammo crate after death with nothing to defend themselves with (Assuming worst case scenario: they used all of their stuff). Plus Merc's having a slight advantage if they know you used stuff... They could reasonably assume you NEED to go to an ammo crate. Thus "Camping" it.

Unless of course you mean to say that some Ammo/Refill Crates will be in Spy-Only reachable areas. In that case it seems pretty legit depending on mappers ability to creatively balance it.

Camo: (This is just a slight Clarification)

You say it goes by moving speed. Is that to also say that it drains while standing still too? Also in your thoughts do Actions still turn it off? (Assume both of these too be a Yes, just wanted to make sure)

[Spekkio]

So that means all I want is for there to be a way to remove all mines.

As I pointed out, you can bank the nade off the wall, go through it and have your partner heal you, go through it and get to a health box, or go around it and remove it manually/shoot it out. That's 4 different options without using a quick-throw chaff through a wall.

Where you and I differ is that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a trap or mine that cannot be chaffed.

In saying this, do you mean that there will be Special Spy Ammo Crates? Or use the same as the Merc's?

Same ones. Map makers will figure out where to put them. If they want to put one in spy spawn, so be it.

It seems a little unfair to force a spy to find an ammo crate after death with nothing to defend themselves with (Assuming worst case scenario: they used all of their stuff). Plus Merc's having a slight advantage if they know you used stuff... They could reasonably assume you NEED to go to an ammo crate. Thus "Camping" it.

They could, but if they camp ammo then they're not camping objectives. You could also help this by having 3+ ammo crates in any given map (which I think there currently are now anyway, but I could be wrong).

And it's not like dying will remove all your gadgets...you just don't get a replenishment for what you already used. If the spy decided to run around constantly dropping smokes and trying to quick-cam around corners on his first life, then yea, he's going to have a bit of a hard time after that. But that's the spy's own fault for leaving nothing to defend himself with, not the game's. The same goes for a merc who decides to spam frags at entrance ways on your first life and then subsequently gets killed later in the game.

You say it goes by moving speed. Is that to also say that it drains while standing still too? Also in your thoughts do Actions still turn it off? (Assume both of these too be a Yes, just wanted to make sure)

Yes and yes.

[Cronky]

It seems a little unfair to force a spy to find an ammo crate after death with nothing to defend themselves with (Assuming worst case scenario: they used all of their stuff). Plus Merc's having a slight advantage if they know you used stuff... They could reasonably assume you NEED to go to an ammo crate. Thus "Camping" it.

They could, but if they camp ammo then they're not camping objectives. You could also help this by having 3+ ammo crates in any given map (which I think there currently are now anyway, but I could be wrong).

And it's not like dying will remove all your gadgets...you just don't get a replenishment for what you already used. If the spy decided to run around constantly dropping smokes and trying to quick-cam around corners on his first life, then yea, he's going to have a bit of a hard time after that. But that's the spy's own fault for leaving nothing to defend himself with, not the game's. The same goes for a merc who decides to spam frags at entrance ways on your first life and then subsequently gets killed later in the game.

The whole situation of "Where they Camp" is almost one big kind of Catch-22. Where as you are unlikely to hack a objective and get away cleanly without gadgets... You need gadgets to get ammo from the ammo camping Merc.

I say Almost because it IS possible to hack something without using Gadgets, but that's the same kind of reasoning behind saying something like, "I can also win story mode by just Killing the Mercs". You COULD, but judging by how the game was made... You shouldn't attempt it. There is a big Ol' twisty pattern of who could be doing what at what time, but it seems like Ammo Crates would be a higher commodity than the objectives at that point. Thus Merc's having to go and guard something ELSE, on top of what they are already balance out to not be able to completely protect.

Plus the glory that Spies/Merc ONLY have a set amount of stuff during a life. Whether they use it or not before their life ends is up to them. If they didn't use something... It's Gone. You wasted 4 Alarm snares, and 2 Smokes because you thought no one would see you hanging off that edge? Too Bad. You still have that balance of, "If you used all your grenades at the start of the match... You could screw yourself" also.

Sure the Spy and Merc are Balanced in the fact that they hold the same outcome for their actions, but the spy becomes near useless (Assuming the mercs aren't bad at their roles) without any gadgets (Except for Stealth!), and the Merc still has his main way to stop you...

It could work though, seeing as how the Mapper is the real person behind "How" it works. In the end I see most people opting to go the old SvM way and just putting in an Ammo Crate in the Spy Spawn though. Which begs the question, "Would Spies forget tactics to go to their spawn for more Gadgets repeatedly?"

Maybe make it an option that the server can turn on. "Death Refills Gadget Stocks: Check or Uncheck".

In the end, it would prolong matches that held spies with no Gadgets (Because stealth takes time), and perhaps give Merc's TOO much to have to cover other than the already mandatory 3/4 objectives they must protect. Since freely giving the spies gadgets because you focus on the objectives is just asking for spies to knock you out with smoke and hack stuff... Refill and Repeat.

[frvge]

Interesting discussion. Keep it up!

[Spark Mandriller]

I dunno if letting spies get more ammo would be that good an idea. Trying to cover all of the ammo boxes and the NDs would be like impossible, so spies would be able to spam like crazy and just reload with barely any trouble.

Though respawning without items is kind of interesting so I guess there'd need to be some way to reload for that to work. Maybe you can only refill items once per life?

[I <3 U]

what about a spy backpack? i know it sound's stupid at first, but it would get rid of the problem noop said about defending NDs and the ammo points. The backpack would  obviously hold more than the merc bp (quantity) but it wouldn't get refreshed everytime you respawned. you'd get a set number of nades, snares, whatever at the start of each game and you could refill as you pleased. The only argument i can think of is there would be too much or to little eq floating around, but obviously it all depends on how much eq is supplied to you at the start of the game. Like i said i havent really thought about it, just a suggestion.