Visual feedback on HUD

[Spekkio]

Farley, I disagree. What you posted is highly annoying. I hate games that "remind" me to play a tutorial every goddamn time I click on something.

You know what? I'm literate and can read menus. So are most people playing video games, and if they aren't then pop-up menus harassing them to play the tutorial aren't going to help. I can read that there is an option called TUTORIAL on the list, and if I feel like I need to play through it, then I will. Where the hell do you get off telling me how I have to learn a game?

Seriously, what's with the elitist attitude on these forums that people are too stupid to learn how to play games without having every minor detail explicitly explained to them? Half of the learning curve of CT was working around all the stupid buggy shit that the PS team is aiming to fix, anyway. If you don't have silly shit like changing visions being able to cancel a high landing animation, EAX allowing players to hear you fart from across the map, being electrically naked doesn't really hide you from EMF and being still doesn't really hide you from MT, or climbing on shit cancel a knockdown animation, then you wouldn't have to create a tutorial explaining all that stuff, now would you?

Some stuff in games just has to be learned through experience, and given the limited amount of time the people working on this project have since it's a spare-time project, I'd much rather them work on smoothing out gameplay than creating an exhaustive tutorial. If you want to learn how a spy/merc controls and what stuff does, then start up a map by yourself and sandbox for a bit. You don't need to spend time coding a tutorial to get this functionality.

Once upon a time there were games that *gasp* didn't have in-game tutorials. Somehow, people managed to l2p. One of these games is Counter-Strike, one of the most popular multiplayer games of all time. There is little correlation between in-game tutorials and the popularity of games.

[Farley4Fan]

Woah Spek, I said warnings that we can skip through and never worry about again.  They should only show up after you install the game.  I can't believe that you think a popup that says "you might wanna check out a tutorial if you're a newcomer" is offensive or elitist. 

It's funny you call that elitist and yet your whole post sounded elitist. 

Obviously a tutorial wouldn't explain all the nuances but it would save vets the trouble of explaining the basic idea of the game to the newcomers during the game.

[CurdyMilk]

legendary players like Mic, Spekkio, Agent, and Farleyfan

Hahaha.  Maybe we should have a tournament to think this through  ;)

[Spekkio]

Woah Spek, I said warnings that we can skip through and never worry about again.  They should only show up after you install the game.  I can't believe that you think a popup that says "you might wanna check out a tutorial if you're a newcomer" is offensive or elitist.

Because A) it's annoying B) it's unnecessary and C) it implies that I, as an adult, can't make my own decision as to whether or not to play the tutorial and properly read a menu list. And the fact that it would popup upon every reinstall is even more annoying. I don't need a popup to tell me "oh hey, there's a tutorial option. don't you want to play it?" when I can see the tutorial option just fine and I obviously made a conscious decision not to play it if I didn't click on it. The worst is when games have that stupid popup before you even get to the menu screen... they have so little faith that they don't even give me a chance to read the menu screen; they just assume that's beyond my mental capabilities from the onset.

It's funny you call that elitist and yet your whole post sounded elitist.

How is giving people credit enough to figure out how to play a video game or read a menu elitist? Elitist is you guys saying "oh, we r superior a players so we have to teach nubs 2 play via tutorial or they'll never get it. Poor nubs. They'd be so lost without the super-awesome tutorial that even teaches you how to wipe your ass with a fail-safe 8 step procedure."

Obviously a tutorial wouldn't explain all the nuances but it would save vets the trouble of explaining the basic idea of the game to the newcomers during the game.

Again, you can gain a feel for functional game mechanics by starting a server by yourself and firing up a map, or doing that with a friend to sandbox around. No need to waste time on building a tutorial for that. But really, there's no substitute for experience, so no matter how good the tutorial is people are going to get their asses beat on the first couple of rounds. SOP for online multiplayer.

Bottom line: the game needs a PDF game manual that explains how to play, including damage tables for weapons and effect duration times (that no one will read, but hey it's there, can be quickly updated with patches if you code it to extract data from the game's files, and doesn't require the same amount of time as coding a tutorial script and building dedicated tutorial maps that likewise no one will play), some game tips on loading screens, and that's it. Everything else can be discovered through sandboxing or playing online matches. And if you're too lazy to read the manual, then that's your own damn fault.

[Spekkio]

legendary players like Mic, Spekkio, Agent, and Farleyfan

Hahaha.  Maybe we should have a tournament to think this through  ;)

I'm so rusty, and my laptop is incapable of EAX = I run into silent proxies way too much. I'd play for old time's sake, though.

[Farley4Fan]

Woah Spek, I said warnings that we can skip through and never worry about again.  They should only show up after you install the game.  I can't believe that you think a popup that says "you might wanna check out a tutorial if you're a newcomer" is offensive or elitist.

Because A) it's annoying B) it's unnecessary and C) it implies that I, as an adult, can't make my own decision as to whether or not to play the tutorial and properly read a menu list. And the fact that it would popup upon every reinstall is even more annoying. I don't need a popup to tell me "oh hey, there's a tutorial option. don't you want to play it?" when I can see the tutorial option just fine and I obviously made a conscious decision not to play it if I didn't click on it. The worst is when games have that stupid popup before you even get to the menu screen... they have so little faith that they don't even give me a chance to read the menu screen; they just assume that's beyond my mental capabilities from the onset.

It's funny you call that elitist and yet your whole post sounded elitist.

How is giving people credit enough to figure out how to play a video game or read a menu elitist? Elitist is you guys saying "oh, we r superior a players so we have to teach nubs 2 play via tutorial or they'll never get it. Poor nubs. They'd be so lost without the super-awesome tutorial that even teaches you how to wipe your ass with a fail-safe 8 step procedure."

Obviously a tutorial wouldn't explain all the nuances but it would save vets the trouble of explaining the basic idea of the game to the newcomers during the game.

Again, you can gain a feel for functional game mechanics by starting a server by yourself and firing up a map, or doing that with a friend to sandbox around. No need to waste time on building a tutorial for that. But really, there's no substitute for experience, so no matter how good the tutorial is people are going to get their asses beat on the first couple of rounds. SOP for online multiplayer.

Bottom line: the game needs a PDF game manual that explains how to play, including damage tables for weapons and effect duration times (that no one will read, but hey it's there, can be quickly updated with patches if you code it to extract data from the game's files, and doesn't require the same amount of time as coding a tutorial script and building dedicated tutorial maps that likewise no one will play), some game tips on loading screens, and that's it. Everything else can be discovered through sandboxing or playing online matches. And if you're too lazy to read the manual, then that's your own damn fault.

You seem to blow things out of proportion a lot.  I bet you go ape shit on yield signs or warning labels.

[tigaer]

^^^
lol! omfg.

[Ion.67]

Perfect solution: Make the tutorial so hard that it anal rapes everyone so I don't have to play with 6 year olds. And by anal rape I mean full on no lube hard shaft.

[Gawain]

i'm quite unsure how deep and interactive the tutorial should be. there should definitely be an option to get taught the basic gameplay mechanics and what it's all about. it's just freaking annoying playing with folks that don't get that the gameplay is meant to focus around the objectives and that communicating with your teammate is a really good idea.

there's nothing wrong with a little reminder that you might wanna go through the tutorial, as long as it isn't arrogant or annoying and can be skipped easily.

what i suggest both for matchmaking purposes and as an anti-fake-account measure is to highlight players with less than 10 hours playing time.

[VaNilla]

Bottom line: the game needs a PDF game manual that explains how to play, including damage tables for weapons and effect duration times (that no one will read, but hey it's there, can be quickly updated with patches if you code it to extract data from the game's files, and doesn't require the same amount of time as coding a tutorial script and building dedicated tutorial maps that likewise no one will play), some game tips on loading screens, and that's it. Everything else can be discovered through sandboxing or playing online matches. And if you're too lazy to read the manual, then that's your own damn fault.

Here's the bottom line; this is a game, and PDF manuals are boring as fuck. There's no harm in including one, but there's no harm in including a tutorial level either; you seem to assume that because many SvM players didn't need a tutorial, that nobody else will. Compare the numbers CT sold with the amount of people who played the multiplayer game actively, and you'll find that most people either gave up or got bored of it. Tutorials are great provided that they're fun, you should get off your pedestal.

[Gawain]

this is a game, and PDF manuals are boring as fuck.

as much as this holds true i'd really like one to easily look up game mechanics stats.

Tutorials are great provided that they're fun

many tutorials fail in that regard, but it's the most important point. a fun tutorial makes you wanna explore more all by yourself, a boring tutorial just makes you wanna get it over with. though i'm not sure it's worth the effort considering the very limited ressources of the ps team. i'd rather have a second map than a great tutorial.

[Cronky]

Tutorials are great provided that they're fun

many tutorials fail in that regard, but it's the most important point. a fun tutorial makes you wanna explore more all by yourself, a boring tutorial just makes you wanna get it over with. though i'm not sure it's worth the effort considering the very limited ressources of the ps team. i'd rather have a second map than a great tutorial.

The thing I have against only having a Manual (I think there should be one of those too) is that it encourages people to Stop playing the game to read it. Just seems to be counter-productive.

Plus when comparing a Manual vs In-game level is that a Manual can only Tell you something. A level can not only Tell you the same thing, but also Show you, and Test you on it. Giving you the same info, if not more, while never stepping out of the game.

[VaNilla]

this is a game, and PDF manuals are boring as fuck.

as much as this holds true i'd really like one to easily look up game mechanics stats.

I totally agree :). Like I said, "there's no harm in including one".

[Spekkio]

There is harm in including a tutorial in two ways:

1) If it's forced upon me and wastes my time, like the SCCT tutorial and incessant "hey, you've never played this map. Maybe you should use the visit a map function!" every time the game is reinstalled or patched.

2) If it detracts from other real content, ie the game has 2 maps and a tutorial vs. 3 maps. This is particularly detrimental if the tutorial has no real value, which most don't since they're usually geared toward people who have apparently never played a single video game in their lives.

Also, people say reading a manual is boring...well, spending 3x that amount of time to play through a tutorial is even more boring. If you have a way to make stupid shit like "press shift to jump"...*player presses shift*..."great, now press c to crouch..." fun and interesting, I'd love to hear it. Good thing we have that announcer, too, cuz the poor guys playing the game couldn't have started a map and figured that out on their own in half the time.

Cronky, yes people have to stop playing the game to read a manual, but they also won't be playing online while they go through a tutorial.

I bet you go ape shit on yield signs or warning labels.

I don't hate warning labels, but I do hate excessive warnings, especially about obvious shit. There is a big difference.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

How about having an awesomely done qick-time-event that shows all of the moves in the actual animation in the aproptiate situation.
Would take up a minute or two, nothing more, and would be at least amusing if done right.