Idea about MT

[Innocent-US]

I agree on the poor map design. I have been studying the CT maps lately and it really does come down to the spies have too few alternate routes. Consider the spawn point for spies in museum. There is the ceiling, the fan vent and the main entry. A good merc team can keep the spies from ever seeing the back half of the map.

The problem also exists that there are too few hacking points in the maps or they are poorly placed. A good example is deftech. A spy must hack 2 of the 3 objectives. The only problem being that the objectives in B and C are too close together and most merc teams will let the spies take A, because two mercs covering B and C is near impossible to break through. Not to mention mercs will know the second a spy enters either building. Shooting out the levels defenses immediately lets the mercs know you are in, and the shocking sound can be heard.

I wonder if implementing a system like in coop for CT where one spy can disable a security system with their gun aimed at it to let the other spy pass would be a great way to get around undetected.

[Gawain]

I agree on the poor map design. I have been studying the CT maps lately and it really does come down to the spies have too few alternate routes.

i'd love to see more routes the merc have to watch, but this also encourages aggro. and i don't wanna see more vents/spy only zones, because they suck.

I wonder if implementing a system like in coop for CT where one spy can disable a security system with their gun aimed at it to let the other spy pass would be a great way to get around undetected.

i'd love to see more coop moves, and this sounds kinda interesting to me. but didn't we have another thread for new coop move ideas?

[LiVe.To.Di3]

yea we had i think and also we had other threads that suddenly become new ones again

[Spekkio]

I agree on the poor map design. I have been studying the CT maps lately and it really does come down to the spies have too few alternate routes. Consider the spawn point for spies in museum. There is the ceiling, the fan vent and the main entry. A good merc team can keep the spies from ever seeing the back half of the map.

I don't know if you were around for it, but now imagine PT where all those entrances had either a camera or motion sensor on it, and once you shot that out you had 24 random lasers strewn throughout the map....yeaaaa.

[Gawain]

at least it stopped the mindless running in circles XD

we just need more maps where the merc has to patrol to beat a stealthy team.

[InvisibleMan999]

dudes, if you don't believe me, at least listen to valserp and spekkio.

but tbh, we need better map design than most ct maps; on a good map, the mercs have to patrol or at least to use camnet/spytraps. atm on most maps the mercs can camp in 2 positions and wait for the spies to give away their location. this is not the best way for the mercs of course, but it works quite fine. the problem with open maps however is that they tend to reduce the strat to just running around in circles or hack-taze-run. i think much of the anger about mt comes from bad map design.

Nah. You don't want maps that have too many spy routes and/or too big, otherwise it becomes a matter of spies just shocking and running around using superior speed to speed hack things.

This is exactly the sort of paradigm I want to avoid. I dont' want to turn the game into DA where you're basically facing mercs who can detect your presence easily and your main recourse is either attacking them or going another route altogether.

As spekkio said earlier, interaction is important and I don't disagree with that. Though I do disagree on the kinds of interaction. Interaction doesn't always have to be shooting the merc or getting into a run and gun battle with him. Interaction just means that the two have to come close enough where the actions of one can influence the other. 

Or to be more specific: the merc needs a chance to detect the spy. The basic stealth contest is that the spy is trying not to be detected and the merc is trying to detect him.

One thing that's kind of nice about big open areas is that they give the merc that chance. It's tense when you're creeping through the shadows, hoping the merc doesn't shine his light on you or come in your direction. That's what I think this game should be all about.

It's no fun when you're dealing with the merc who happens to be patrolling the room and can see in 360 degrees anytime you move. Seriously, it's hard enough to be stealthy without automatically giving away your position anytime you move faster than slowest speed. MT just makes detection too effortless on the part of the merc. It's pretty bad when you can have your back turned to the spy and still detect him. Basically MT removes the need to patrol large rooms (beyond just moving a bit to make it harder to hit with the shocker). MT does all the work for you. Actually searching for spies with your flashlight is well... never used.

The main problem with MT is that it requires bigger levels and more spy routes to make it work. I mean we can claim it's poor map design if we want, but then we just move towards DA style maps where spies are constantly crawling in vents and such. This also improves aggro because it takes longer for a merc's partner to arrive. New maps aren't necessarily the answer.

But none of us actually want that. We want a game where spies and mercs interact. But interaction could just be slipping past a merc while his back is turned.  The thing people are assuming for whatever reason, is that spies can't be detected by flashlight, or that the game will somehow fall apart if everyone doesn't motion whore.

Why are you all so afraid of a stealth game? Is it too hard to ask mercs to search out spies in normal vision with the flashlight? I mean, what's wrong with that? 

[Gawain]

omg spamming a long post doesn't give your arguments more weight. the main problem with mt is the shadow inversion and maybe that it detects crouching in long ranges. a not moving spy, especially in the shadows, or a spy in huge distance should be hardly or not visible at all with mt. if you can't get around a mt whoring merc, you have to get some skills. stealth is also about confusion and distraction, and it needs good team work just like aggro does in order to be effective. stealth will work much better after the eax bullshit and the emf ghosting is fixed, and aggro will get much harder with no host advantage/ smooth aiming/ hardly laggs. pure stealth and pure aggro should not work the best, but a mix of both with the emphasis on stealth should do.
if you really happen to be in a big room with a mt whoring camping merc, and your mate can't do any distraction, and you really can't get around him (it's quite easy in main hall factory for example, just use camo and climb the ladder), stop whining and fucking taze him. you have to adapt to the current situation...

[Spekkio]

Why are you all so afraid of a stealth game?

We're not. You want to make stealth easy when it shouldn't be. Stealth is doable, you just have to take your time and be good at it.

[Gawain]

he thinks ct is an aggro game lol. just go out and try aggro against a decent team on a good server and see what happens...

[Spekkio]

Well, he's also an Xboxer... :o.

But the actual balance of CT is fine...2 mercs > 2 spies > 1 merc > 1 spy in aggro situations. The problem is when some maps force 2 mercs and 2 spies to be in close proximity all the time, and the huge amount of bugs that plague the game.

[Gawain]

Well, he's also an Xboxer... :o.

haha sometimes i almost wanted to say this, thx that you did it  :D

[InvisibleMan999]

Well, he's also an Xboxer... :o.

Well, yes I do primarily play CT on xbox now, but I played the PC version for quite some time too, as well as all my time playing PT was the PC version, so it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about with regards to the PC version, just because I play the xbox version right now. (which is mostly to get away from EAX and high res MT bullshit). Believe me, I logged a lot of hours playing the PC version too and I've said before, I was great at taking out stealth spies on either platform. Now arguably my xbox time gives me a somewhat bias towards anti-aggro, since aggro is much more powerful on the box than on PC. But keep in mind that stealth is also lots better on xbox too (no EAX, low res display, no post render). And I still feel as though stealth is underpowered even on the box. Good players on the box don't sneak past mercs, they just fire a bunch of stickies and hope one of them KOs the merc.

In fact, it probably gives me a little more insight into how good the motion detect of MT really is. On xbox you don't have high res displays or post render quality, and still, MT is freaking awesome. I regularly MT whore on xbox.

And honeslty, I really do have to call bullshit on the whole shock and run thing, on either platform.

seriously, it doesn't work nearly as well as you guys claim, and that's regardless of if you're playing xbox or PC. It's actually probably a *Better* tactic on xbox because the merc can't snipe you as fast on EMF. But even on the box, it sucks. When you shock the merc, you give yourself away to any decent merc. So as soon as you make a break for it, the merc knows what direction you've gone and now pursues. Seriously, it ain't that hard. If you're trying to infiltrate the back of the map that way, like museum or river mall, likely a shock and run strategy means you run headfirst into a proxy. Factory and orphanage is about the only maps where shock and run works okay on. Even on orphanage, you'll probably end up running into a mine or spytrap.

Shock and run is fine for an escape strategy, but it sucks as an infiltration strategy. It just doesn't last long enough for you to disarm any defenses the merc has left for you and any decent merc can guess where you went to.

As a side note, while Spekkio, and possibly the rest of you, do not believe that full stealth should be viable, the majority of people in this poll (taken on this forum) disagreed with you:

http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php?topic=219.0

So if you want to make total stealth non-viable, then you're in the minority.


In closing, let me ask you guys this:

Taking aggro out of the equation, do you think the game turns into a one-sided total stealth match if MT were completely taken out of the game?

Or to ask it another way... Is MT whoring required to be in the game to beat stealth spies?

[Spekkio]

It's actually probably a *Better* tactic on xbox because the merc can't snipe you as fast on EMF.

But he's in MT...

As a side note, while Spekkio, and possibly the rest of you, do not believe that full stealth should be viable, the majority of people in this poll (taken on this forum) disagreed with you:

Sometimes I think you just like to read your own writing...

I voted for the third option in that poll. Yes, I believe that the game should offer flexibility in the way that spies choose to play the game. We already have this in CT on the balanced maps. Nevertheless, there still needs to be interaction between the two sides or else the game will be very, very boring.

You're basically saying over and over again that you have a problem getting past MT, so we need to nerf it to oblivion to make stealth easier.

Look, I used to think the same thing...then one day a long while ago, I came to the realization that Ubi isn't going to patch the game anymore, and even if they did they weren't going to listen to the community. It was right about the time when Weezer told me I was bitching too much, and he was right. So instead of focusing on how overpowered MT is, I accepted it as part of the game and worked on trying to get around it. I highly suggest you do the same, you might be surprised.

MT is for detecting MOTION, and that's what it should keep doing. Like it's been said 100x in this thread by everyone except you, the only problem with MT is when it helps you see spies that aren't moving. Considering the game is moving to a new engine, I'm sure Kebab et al will find a way to fix that.

If Ubi patched CT by doing the following:
-forcing normal post render for MT
-lowering the sensitivity a bit so that slow creeping doesn't set off the box sometimes, esp. when moving on a slant
-adding the background static noise that was present in PT, perhaps a little louder so you don't get the benefits of EAX while in the vision

MT would be perfectly fine. You gain sight awareness at a sacrifice of sound awareness, and the normal post render means you can't see shit in the shadows anywhere nearly as easily. That's it...that's all it needs. None of this other crazy stuff you are proposing.

Or to ask it another way... Is MT whoring required to be in the game to beat stealth spies?

I don't need any one feature the merc has in an isolated vacuum. Individually, MT is just a tool like any other gadget and ability. It's the synergistic effect of them all that allows me to hunt down spies efficiently, and your proposals about MT would be a huge detriment not only to hunting stealth spies, but to aggro spies as well.

[InvisibleMan999]

It's actually probably a *Better* tactic on xbox because the merc can't snipe you as fast on EMF.

But he's in MT...

You realize how fast it is to switch to MT to EMF, right?

Here's how it works to MT whore. If you see a sound on your SD and you don't hear an MT box, you instantly turn on EMF, as it's likely someone has drawn out his gun on you. It's really that simple.

Also, answer my question in the previous post.

Do you think that MT is required to stop stealth spies?

[Spekkio]

Here's how it works to MT whore. If you see a sound on your SD and you don't hear an MT box, you instantly turn on EMF, as it's likely someone has drawn out his gun on you. It's really that simple.

In that time you should be able to shock the merc quite easily.