Idea about MT

[Gawain]

haha that's exactly what i wanted to say. the best counter to mt is not moving and hiding with camo/in the shadows/in long range. i can only speak for myself, but i got fooled quite alot when i used to mt whore. isn't i proof enough that most good merc players don't mt whore?
btw you complain alot about aggro, but u have to accept that aggro most times works only out of stealth situations, so that you aren't prepared for it and your teammate needs some time to help you out.
the funny thing about scct is, that i think it became such good just because of coincidence. the developers had/have no idea how the gameplay works in higher levels of experience. but they also didn't do one thing: listen to the newbis complaining about everything appearing to them as 'lame'. we should get the best stealth team and ask them what they encounter the most annoying thing, and do the same for the aggro part. spekkio is quite competent in the stealth sector...
if stealth gets too easy you won't get the omgwtf feeling anymore and the games will get quite boring.

[Valserp]

Do you think that MT is required to stop stealth spies?

Yes, I would usually turn MT on if a spy has shot a few snares around my patrol, hoping that it'll cover up his fast movements. I would usually turn on MT in areas, where spies can roll from cover to cover. I usually turn MT on near pipes, that lead to vents/ceilings.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

MT MT MT thats all there is and MT whoring lol.. NO i have only gotten hit by a hs a couple times with "mt". I think its not as bad as you people are making it sound. Maybe you guys are unlucky players and get hit with it a lot. It does not bother me but it does need some tweaks as for everything else in CT.

[InvisibleMan999]

haha that's exactly what i wanted to say. the best counter to mt is not moving and hiding with camo/in the shadows/in long range. i can only speak for myself, but i got fooled quite alot when i used to mt whore. isn't i proof enough that most good merc players don't mt whore?

Not from my experience. If you flick on standard vision or EMF once in a while but keep on MT 90% of the time, you're still an MT whore, and that's exactly what I've experienced good players do, that applies to PC and xbox.

As far as countering it by not moving, that's rather counterproductive. Keep in mind that you've got to move to get objectives and in some cases, there's no guarantee the merc is going to leave. If you could sneak while his back is turned that would remedy the situation some IMO.

spekkio is quite competent in the stealth sector...
if stealth gets too easy you won't get the omgwtf feeling anymore and the games will get quite boring.

Well Spekkio has voiced his opinion in many cases that he dislikes the design of many maps. Instead of seeing it as a problem with MT, he thinks that open rooms where spies have to hide in shadows and go from cover to cover, shouldn't exist.

And while that might work, I'm worried it could bring about Double Agent syndrome where we have too many spy routes, given the main counter to MT is to be behind total cover and not be seen at all. From a map design point of view, that's not very interesting because it removes the possibility for interaction. You can easily just use heartbeat to stay out of the merc's way.

Also, I'd like you and Spekkio to answer my previous question about if you think MT is required to stop stealth spies. It'll give me an idea of what page you guys are on, because before the concern wtih nerfing MT was that it would help aggro spies too much, now it seems that you're more concerned with stealth spies dominating the game if MT were nerfed.

[Spekkio]

Also, I'd like you and Spekkio to answer my previous question about if you think MT is required to stop stealth spies.

You don't like to read very much, do you? Check the last page, I answered your question.

And while that might work, I'm worried it could bring about Double Agent syndrome where we have too many spy routes, given the main counter to MT is to be behind total cover and not be seen at all. From a map design point of view, that's not very interesting because it removes the possibility for interaction. You can easily just use heartbeat to stay out of the merc's way.

Yea, but the only maps where MT whoring is a real bane are Warehouse Sect 1 & 3, Bank sect 1, Museum cafe (although EMFing the ceiling is harder to get around than an MT whore in this area), Mall lobby, Station sect 2, and Deftech outer courtyard. These specific areas create bottlenecks that are very tough to pass because you HAVE to go through them to access the rest of the map. On the other maps, it's very possible to get around it either because there is adequate cover or enough objectives/routes where you don't even need to cross the open, and I don't think any of the CT maps suffer from "DA syndrome." That's not to say that all the other maps are balanced, or that the above ones aren't, it's just that MT whoring doesn't matter on them.

As far as sneaking behind mercs, you already can. The problem is that in the real world mercs tend to look around, so like I said your suggestions are pointless.

[InvisibleMan999]

Also, I'd like you and Spekkio to answer my previous question about if you think MT is required to stop stealth spies.

You don't like to read very much, do you? Check the last page, I answered your question.

Odd, that wasn't there when I checked originally, did you add that in an edit?

Also, you said that my change would make MT weaker against aggro spies. I'm curious why. Aggro spies don't tend to walk around crouched, so I don't see how it would have much impact.

I don't think any of the CT maps suffer from "DA syndrome." That's not to say that all the other maps are balanced, or that the above ones aren't, it's just that MT whoring doesn't matter on them.

You're right, most maps aviod DA syndrome by being so small that they force aggro, like aquarius. But these tend to get the classification as poorly designed maps too.

If aqua were bigger or had more spread out objectives, it'd be very much a DA syndrome map. I mean, I can use heartbeat and avoid mercs easily on that map, it's just you have to confront the mercs because the map is so small and the mercs can camp.

As far as sneaking behind mercs, you already can. The problem is that in the real world mercs tend to look around, so like I said your suggestions are pointless.

Please, make up your mind, would my suggestion do nothing or would it unbalance the game? It can't be both pointless and game breaking at the same time. That makes absolutely no sense.

[Spekkio]

If aqua were bigger or had more spread out objectives, it'd be very much a DA syndrome map. I mean, I can use heartbeat and avoid mercs easily on that map, it's just you have to confront the mercs because the map is so small and the mercs can camp.

No, there are two problems with Aqua:

1) REQUIRING coop to access objectives to win the game. Without coop you have a choice of going to greek or pirates...with two mercs, you can see the issue there. If you kill one spy off you know that unless the other one escapes back to spawn, you don't have to guard tech room. I don't think any map should require coop to win...Club and Factory are examples of maps with good coop options; Aqua and Station are examples of maps with bad coop options.

2) The map is too assymetrical. Other than greek, the mercs can both stay in the pirate/tech area and guard the entire map -- well, at least anything that's important. Which is why getting greek first is a terrible thing to do, despite the benefit of opening all the doorways.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

well i hack greek first and then me and my mate play an aggro game and we win. even though tank would be the best thing to get first. me and my mate rarely get it

[Spekkio]

Yea, that works really well  ::)... and when it doesn't, crying about it is even better.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

hacking greek first isnt the best but it catches the merc off guard and you can cam him or fight him and then hack. i am not saying this is the best idea but it shows what a mercmap aqua is. in order to get an obj you must fight at one point or another and by getting tank first you can then go tech, pir, and greek so its the best thing to get first.

[InvisibleMan999]

If aqua were bigger or had more spread out objectives, it'd be very much a DA syndrome map. I mean, I can use heartbeat and avoid mercs easily on that map, it's just you have to confront the mercs because the map is so small and the mercs can camp.

No, there are two problems with Aqua:

1) REQUIRING coop to access objectives to win the game. Without coop you have a choice of going to greek or pirates...with two mercs, you can see the issue there. If you kill one spy off you know that unless the other one escapes back to spawn, you don't have to guard tech room. I don't think any map should require coop to win...Club and Factory are examples of maps with good coop options; Aqua and Station are examples of maps with bad coop options.

2) The map is too assymetrical. Other than greek, the mercs can both stay in the pirate/tech area and guard the entire map -- well, at least anything that's important. Which is why getting greek first is a terrible thing to do, despite the benefit of opening all the doorways.

Oh, I agree. Which is why I said "if aqua were bigger or the objectives were spread out more". As is, Aqua is a plain old merc map. It's probably one of the most merc advantageous maps in the game. This has almost nothing to do with MT either, which is why I use it as an example. It's style makes MT very weak.

The only reason aqua is a merc map is because the mercs just don't have to patrol. They can pretty much stay in a couple designated locations with minimal movement and win. 

But lets imagine for a bit if it were changed around some. It's rather amazing how quickly the advantage can shift.

Lets say that we put a bombing objective in the office in a back room.

Now, aqua is going to actually become a strong spy map, because of the heartbeat. If the mercs are forced to patrol aqua, it's nearly impossible for them to do much, because it's rather easy for you to just use heartbeat to strike at a location the merc isn't present in.

In a map without open spaces, heartbeat is king.

I mean, just look at orphanage. spies have to get 1 objective out of 3, then 1 objective out of 3 and then a disc. And yet this map is seen as a spy map. The toughest part in orphanage is not surprisingly the top area with the discs, where MT works well.

That's what would happen to aqua if you forced the mercs to patrol.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

if aqua were spread out then it would be a normal map and u guys would say MT whoring in that map too. I dont think i even use MT in that map unless in tech sometimes. also i dont use mt a lot lol.. i get hs without it even if it helps

[Gawain]

whenever i use mt on aqua it's only a counter to flashbangs and going-for-neck aggro.

[Spekkio]

Now, aqua is going to actually become a strong spy map, because of the heartbeat. If the mercs are forced to patrol aqua, it's nearly impossible for them to do much, because it's rather easy for you to just use heartbeat to strike at a location the merc isn't present in.

In a map without open spaces, heartbeat is king.

What's your point? If you're trying to convince us of the need to nerf MT, which is a merc ability, because spies have it too easy due to HB sensor, you're not making a very good case.

I mean, just look at orphanage. spies have to get 1 objective out of 3, then 1 objective out of 3 and then a disc. And yet this map is seen as a spy map.

Well, if there are two mercs and 3 objectives always accessible, that does create a problem in coverage, doesn't it?

The toughest part in orphanage is not surprisingly the top area with the discs, where MT works well.

LoL...MT doesn't work well in the attic because of the sheets sectioning it off. It also doesn't invert any of the shadows near the ammo box.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

to me MT is good and maybe it might need some tweaks but i think its good for now. idk when its so powerful maybe because i dont use it often