Grab from the ledge.

[Cronky]

-Sam and Company
-Gun(s)
-Ability to walk slowly
-Goggles that in essence make dark spots irrelevant
-A ridiculous plot that threatens Peace only to be stopped by Sam and Company
-AI that finds any reason to walk away from it's position it was originally at

You forgot to add "is a stealth game".

(oh wait lol)

Whoa now. Don't be hatin. ;)

Most games can be a stealth game if played... interestingly, and Conviction has more stealth than a lot of other games. Ninja Gaiden for example has no stealth regardless of the fact that Ryu is a Ninja. Now in comparison to the other Splinter Cells, yes, there is a higher focus on shooting people. Though aside from the unavoidable sequences in which you're forced to be caught, everything can be played pretty quietly. Disregarding the stealth aspect of the game simply because it's not up to par with the others in the series does not change the fact that the game is still a "Stealth Game".

;D

This is getting off topic even more than it already was.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

NO ITS NOT A STEALTH GAME.
You could just as well be saying that GTA is a stealth game because you can sneak.
It's not.

[Cronky]

GTA having a sneaking ability does indeed not make it a stealth game, but it does give it a stealth aspect if sneaking actually hides your presence.

Conviction on the other hand has a multitude of features that make stealth very viable. Even M&E is primarily supposed to be used for Multiple Stealth Kills. While it can be played as an action game, it's primary focus is still stealth.

Again, I don't think this is the SAME stealth as previous Splinter Cells but rather a sidestepped, altered, version of the classic Splinter Cell Formula.

Much like Metal Gear Acid is an altered version of the Metal Gear Solid gameplay.

::)

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Afaik Acid was a card game for GBC?
That's just low.

[Farley4Fan]

Splinter cell conviction "pure stealth" is like playing frogger.

"Ok, just wait for this guy to go then my timing will be good until this guy says the F word and then I know it's okay to go and then if these guys don't move out the single doorway that i must go through to advance i will just mark and execute all three of them with a silenced pistol so that way i am still stealthy and then I can just barely dodge through these guys man playing stealthy is so unorthodox why am i doing this when I could just kill everyone here I'll just push this button alright everyone is dead cool that means no one knows i'm here if everyone is dead and OMG A HELICOPTERS PEW PEW PEW!!!!"

[Cronky]

Afaik Acid was a card game for GBC?
That's just low.

It's for the PSP. It did involve cards though.

But you can say the same about... Portable Ops, Acid 2, and Peace Walker, or hell.. throw in that VR Mission game of Metal Gear... even more hell, why not throw in the original Metal Gears to show the difference between what it was to what it is.

It's all the same mechanics tweaked to make it different in each respective series.

Splinter cell conviction "pure stealth" is like playing frogger.

"Ok, just wait for this guy to go then my timing will be good until this guy says the F word and then I know it's okay to go and then if these guys don't move out the single doorway that i must go through to advance i will just mark and execute all three of them with a silenced pistol so that way i am still stealthy and then I can just barely dodge through these guys man playing stealthy is so unorthodox why am i doing this when I could just kill everyone here I'll just push this button alright everyone is dead cool that means no one knows i'm here if everyone is dead and OMG A HELICOPTERS PEW PEW PEW!!!!"

I never said Convictions stealth was perfect. Though that is still being stealthy. Shooting someone in the head without alerting all the guards, marking and executing 3 people that are in your way, shooting something to distract the AI to another place are all Stealth mechanics. Again, they put forced sequences that flipped the action mode into play, but that could be seen as a contrast to how you were supposed to be playing the rest of the game.

They made the game so you could play it how you wanted. Sneaking wasn't supposed to be easy, but if you could do it then good for you. You could play it pure action too, which was much easier. Just because the option is there doesn't mean the game lost it's primary focus. Most all the features still related to stealth.

Just because you didn't like how it was implemented and changed does not change the fact that it was still a Stealth game.

THAT IS ALL :P

[Spark Mandriller]

Again, they put forced sequences that flipped the action mode into play, but that could be seen as a contrast to how you were supposed to be playing the rest of the game.

yeeeeeeeah

[Farley4Fan]

I love Peace Walker but they took out some things that I wish they hadn't (BODY DRAGGING ARRRGGH).

I'm gonna say this again because I still think it's a good point.

Oblivion/Fallout.  There are stealth options.  For those who can use stealth, good for them.  The option is there no matter how unorthodox/imperfect it may be.  Has it ever, EVER, been called a stealth/action game?  No.  

In fact, the Fallout stealth reminds me of Conviction because I can just automatically aim for someone's head and push my win button and continue being hidden within Fallout's 2 phase (hidden or not) lame ass stealth system.  Yawn.

I know it's pathetic that Conviction still irks me.  I don't hate it.  People just try to pass it off as another entry in the series when it may as well be a whole new series.

On topic:

I think that PS has to feel a bit more natural and less blocky/predetermined than CT/PT.  Obviously they had less power to work with.  It's hard to say what I'm getting at but I'll put it this way.  If I want to grab a guy off a ledge and throw him down then I should be able to do that even if there is not a rail there.  There shouldn't be predetermined areas where you can kill other players, or at least try to minimize them.  

By predetermined I mean thing like rails, pillars to split jump between like Deftech just so you can maybe do it once in a couple dozen full moons, horizontal pipes to do the inverse neck grab stuck randomly around the map, these predetermined areas make things predictable and therefore useless.  My suggestion would be (to the mappers) to make these areas plentiful or don't use them at all.  Having one place on the map to split jump is a waste of time imo.  Make a large area made with narrow hallways so that there isn't one spot the mercs are predicting, make a spy be able to grab a merc off any ledge regardless of rail, this is all just a big mess of text huh?

I'd like to see a more natural feel to the game than the blockiness of CT where it almost felt like Legos.  Interactivity of the map is key, maps that change, maps that have multiple entry/exit points, designated areas for certain areas such as rail grabbing/split jumping lead to blockiness, the pause between animations led to this as well.  How is the fluidity of motion so far?  Are you guys planning ways to make it flow better?  

When a spy climbs up a box I'd rather see him go right into movement whereas in CT they would actually pause after climbing and then you could proceed.  After snapping a mercs neck you stand straight up, pause, and then you can move.  

ha I kinda went off topic when I said "on topic".  

[Farley4Fan]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/110/1106642p2.html

Looks like the new Bond game is borrowing from Conviction.  That I don't really mind, mark and execute belongs in Bond more than Splinter Cell even if it still is totally lame.  It says "1 melee kill and you get a slow mo mode where headshots are easy" - something along those lines.  Imo, it's devolving the industry (things like LKP, M+E, for 1 melee you get a win nuke button yayz)...

Maybe they'll do it better than Ubi did.  I actually don't mind it when you go into slow mo and you can control the shots and their order YOURSELF, rather than just watch Bond/Fisher/Bourne/Bauer do it.  Kind of like Dead Eye in RDR.  If there absolutely has to be Mark and Sexecute for the next splinter cell then they should do it like Dead Eye.

Fixed link.

[DreadStunLock]

Speaking off Split jumps, would be really awesome if that could be used a bit more often in PS, I mean making someway that a spy jumps just a little or on torso higher than ussualy, it is kind of unrealistic maybe. But it will bring back a great move. :/

[Cronky]

I love Peace Walker but they took out some things that I wish they hadn't (BODY DRAGGING ARRRGGH).

I'm gonna say this again because I still think it's a good point.

Oblivion/Fallout.  There are stealth options.  For those who can use stealth, good for them.  The option is there no matter how unorthodox/imperfect it may be.  Has it ever, EVER, been called a stealth/action game?  No. 

In fact, the Fallout stealth reminds me of Conviction because I can just automatically aim for someone's head and push my win button and continue being hidden within Fallout's 2 phase (hidden or not) lame ass stealth system.  Yawn.

I know it's pathetic that Conviction still irks me.  I don't hate it.  People just try to pass it off as another entry in the series when it may as well be a whole new series.

And that's how I see Conviction. It's a Splinter Cell game in the same way that Portable Ops/Acid/Peace Walker are Metal Gear games. They share a name, characters, and very basic elements of gameplay, but they are unique from eachother. Conviction being the Action Stealth version of Splinter Cell compared to the Full Stealth of the previous iterations.

On topic:

-text-

I like what you got going on here. Fluid motion out of animations is something CT never did have. Even if the pause was less than a second, it still begs the question on why it is there. Even though it was obvious why it was...

It's a matter of how close cut the animations are. Much like your example of neck breaks, the animation ended with the spy standing there. If it was cut off as the spy was going to his default upright position then it would shave that tiny pause off. Since... there is no need to see him go upright for the sake of anything.

At least that's my understanding of it.

As for more fluid map interactivity as with the Split Jump and Ledge grabs. I do believe that it should be more open as to where you can use it, but it being TOO open could be a problem (at least in my mind).

The rail grab vs a box grab (Such as the deftec example from before) makes sense as to why the box one doesn't work. Lest another animation be made where the spy just like... drags the foot of the Merc off. Obviously couldn't use the rail animation for the box because the Spy used the tension from the Merc on the rail to not fall off.

It makes me wonder if the box grab could be a non-instant kill (As I think was mentioned before) move simply because I imagine the Merc landing on his feet, but instead depending on the height it could either do minor damage and/or Knock outs. Have to figure out how you would balance it so that Spies couldn't just pull them down then immediately jump on them, or if it would be unfair that the spies would then have a huge amount of places to pull a Merc, but that's for another post entirely.

[monterto]

Most games can be a stealth game if played... interestingly, and Conviction has more stealth than a lot of other games. Ninja Gaiden for example has no stealth regardless of the fact that Ryu is a Ninja.

Holy misdirection batman! Is that a logical fallacy I see here!

[MulleDK19]

NO ITS NOT A STEALTH GAME.

Conviction is by far more stealthy than any previous Splinter Cell.

[Farley4Fan]

NO ITS NOT A STEALTH GAME.

Conviction is by far more stealthy than any previous Splinter Cell.

i c wut u did thar

And Cronky I like the idea of a "box grab" being non fatal.  When I imagine having my foot pulled off a ledge I can also imagine having the time/position to react in a way so that I could live.  If I am literally hurled off a railing then I doubt I could have the awareness to, well, not die.  But realism isn't the main reason I can see this working.  I can also see having it only knock out the merc for a good 7-8 seconds as a good addition to gameplay even if it's not realistic.  What I'm saying is that realism isn't too important but it can't hurt if it was done for gameplay purposes.

It should be a quick animation.  Almost as quick as tripping someone would be.  Just a quick grab and pull.  The merc would land on his side and get knocked out for a determined amount of time.  This way the size of the box does not matter.  But on the flip side you could make it so the size of the box DOES matter.  Obviously the higher the box the longer the merc would be knocked out, but if the merc is grabbed over a railing and thrown headfirst into the ground, he dies. 

No matter the height, I say if the merc is thrown from the a railing, he should die.  There is a simple fix for the small height rail kills like the generators on polar base: don't put rails around ledges that are 5 feet off the ground.  If a merc is pulled from a ledge w/o a rail he should not die unless his health was low before falling.  This non lethal ledge grab should take a way a portion of health, though. 

I feel like I could have explained why I like this with just one sentence.

[Cronky]

Most games can be a stealth game if played... interestingly, and Conviction has more stealth than a lot of other games. Ninja Gaiden for example has no stealth regardless of the fact that Ryu is a Ninja.

Holy misdirection batman! Is that a logical fallacy I see here!

Hahahaha, I definitely didn't go at that point very well.

I MEANT for it to be a comparison to non-stealth games having the ability to "Stealth" situations versus Conviction that relies on stealth throughout the majority of the game. Such as having the Cloak in Halo doesn't mean that Halo is a Stealth Oriented game. Conviction having a multitude of features pertaining the the stealth gameplay does.

(The black and white mode, Goggles, Silencers, AI, Gadgets, M&E, etc)

...The ninja gaiden part... Well I just find that damn ironic.

I feel like I could have explained why I like this with just one sentence.

Welcome to my world ;D

But yeah, I like the idea that the box grab is one predetermined time. Sounds like a lot more work for each height to have some formula calculated to give some random ass time for the Merc to be knocked out.

It may be annoying when things like the short ledge drops happen, but that's something that could just be tolerated... much like short drops are already.

An amount of health taken away is also good. I like that it IS Non-Lethal, but can certainly kill if given the right situation. 1/2 or 1/4 seems like it would be the best bets for me. 1/2 because Spies don't have anything other than dropping on you or choking you out to kill you. So health isn't really a problem. 1/4 because if it's not balanced that a Spy could wait till you get up and drop on you, then you'd still live after a jump (If playing non-instant kill drops).

I'm just gonna leave it at that lest I make this post any longer than it already is.