What if...

[Spekkio]

Where is this thread about suiciding for equipment? What would you suggest to fix it? Most of my ideas would reward or punish the Merc unfairly.

dunno, you'll have to search for it.

I really don't care about realism. I care about the insurmountable end-game where there are 6 mines aiding 2 mercs covering 3 to 4 objectives.

There are a couple of ways to fix this, but refilling equipment
on death is plain silly.

[DreadStunLock]

Spekkio I disagree with you completely, In my honest opinion dieng for gadget refill is not for any player, to do that correctly you need to do it at right time, in a right spot, at the right situation in the right moment.

[VaNilla]

I really don't care about realism. I care about the insurmountable end-game where there are 6 mines aiding 2 mercs covering 3 to 4 objectives.

There are a couple of ways to fix this, but refilling equipment
on death is plain silly.

So basically, your argument is that 6 is a higher number than four. The problem with this is that mines aren't used to cover objectives alone. The size of the maps are far bigger than the size of four objectives alone. I mean think about it, one of the balancing factors against a spy is that they need to be cautious at all times. So mercenaries should have means to defend each area of the map whilst situating themselves in different areas. The game requires movement between locations from both the spies and mercenaries, so I'm sure you will agree that mines are very important. Six mines is a good number because it allows you to cover chokepoints across the whole map whilst moving around, and it's balanced because if the spy can find the mine, they can defuse it.

This is why your idea doesn't work. What happens when these six important mines have exploded or been defused? You're suggesting that mercs shouldn't have any mines left once the six they have between them have been used, but this means that they would no longer be able to defend ANY map efficiently after their mines have gone, because they wouldn't be able to replace them. On the other hand, if equipment is refilled on respawn, then the problem doesn't exist. And I don't think there's ever really been a problem with that, has there ;). Your suggestion would make mines become useless, and nobody would take them because they'd be gone in a flash.  If you're going to come back to life, you should come back with everything you had at the beginning, that's just common sense. As you've hopefully come to understand, this doesn't detract from gameplay, and it never really has been.

[Farley4Fan]

How about this.  You don't refill on mines after each life.

[VaNilla]

How about no? For the reasons already stated, it wouldn't work.

[Spark Mandriller]

This is why your idea doesn't work. What happens when these six important mines have exploded or been defused? You're suggesting that mercs shouldn't have any mines left once the six they have between them have been used, but this means that they would no longer be able to defend ANY map efficiently after their mines have gone, because they wouldn't be able to replace them.

You don't actually need six mines down at all times to be successful Stone.

Try playing the game sometime.

If it's not realistic to refill equipment after death, then why do we allow respawning in the first place?

So are you being obtuse on purpose, or are you just a moron? Serious question.

[VenomousNinja]

Why not just only allow six primed mines on the map at all times?

[Spekkio]

Stone,

So what you're saying is that mercs can't possibly win if they don't both pick mines as an equipment item?

[B1nArY_001]

Mines are nice to have but I can recall a good number of matches where I didn't use a single mine and was just fine... Against a good player all a mine does is slow them down a tiny bit or force them to take an alternate route...

Only time I ever die to a mine is being careless... or that stupid bug where a mine would go off even when you were in a slow walk... usually as the removal animation was going through. But that was SCCT...

[VaNilla]

Stone,

So what you're saying is that mercs can't possibly win if they don't both pick mines as an equipment item?

Nope. I'm saying that if mercs don't respawn with mines after taking them in their loadout, then it's going to be much harder to win against players of similar skill levels, to a point where it's not balanced.

You don't actually need six mines down at all times to be successful Stone.

Try playing the game sometime.

If it's not realistic to refill equipment after death, then why do we allow respawning in the first place?

So are you being obtuse on purpose, or are you just a moron? Serious question.

I know you don't need six mines down to win a match, you clearly didn't read my post. I'm neither obtuse nor a moron.

Why not just only allow six primed mines on the map at all times?

That's the system that's already in place, and it works thankfully, which is why this whole suggestion Spekkio has put forward is pointless and useless.

[Spark Mandriller]

I'm neither obtuse nor a moron.

So what's your excuse for not realising that realistic in that context meant meaningful, rather than going off on some confused tangent about how respawning doesn't make sense? I mean, let's face it, it was pretty obvious.

[SITHDUKE]

I think Mercs may need a way to replenish their equipment given the size of the maps. However I don't think they should just be handed this equipment for free. I think if a Merc is at the point where he is completely out of equipment he should have to gamble in some way. I'm thinking the Merc has to travel to a rather neutral place on the map(by neutral I mean it favors neither spies nor mercs) and use a beacon to land a supply crate. The gamble would be spies could also use the Merc crate to resupply

Also to add to the gamble spies could be allowed to sabotage the equipment, which would dispense faulty equipment. Faulty equipment may be a bit too harsh though, so you could maybe have the sabotaged equipment like mines/traps be visible to the spies and show through walls.

Anyway...just some ideas.

[DreadStunLock]

[frvge edit: off-topic]

[SITHDUKE]

I don't see how that is even remotely related to my post. o.0

[Spekkio]

Nope. I'm saying that if mercs don't respawn with mines after taking them in their loadout, then it's going to be much harder to win against players of similar skill levels, to a point where it's not balanced.

So you're saying the game isn't balanced unless the mercs a) have mines and b) have them available to them in the end-game.

I disagree.

That's the system that's already in place, and it works thankfully, which is why this whole suggestion Spekkio has put forward is pointless and useless.

First, the system works in that you can't suicide for equipment early on in the game and place 9, 12, even 18 mines within the opening parts of the game. However, I don't think that the system "works," since mercs win the vast majority of the game. There are a lot of factors contributing to this (namely, how difficult it is for spies to kill mercs in SCCT), but the fact remains that it is very easy for a merc to suicide and replenish his equipment without any significant penalty. And the fact remains that overcoming 6 mines, 3-6 spytraps or camnet, and 2 mercs split between 3 objectives is pretty difficult.

However, I also don't like that the spy end encourages liberal use of smokes/stickies/chaff, since you get all this equipment back when you die. On top of that, there is no real way to replenish equipment in the end game if you manage to get there without dying, which means you eventually you'll have to go kamikaze to get more equipment.

From a design point, it's silly to have such a system in place that punishes surviving and rewards dying in this manner. Instead, equipment should not refill upon death, and there should be some kind of limited way to refill equipment during the game (for example, through ammo boxes). Perhaps this problem might go away if spies can more easily kill mercs, making it more risky for them to sacrifice a life, but that still doesn't solve a faulted design... it just covers it up.