How do you think PS would play if the spy had a pistol?

[DreadStunLock]

I also somehow think that people still want to somehow and for some reason to view Project Stealth stealth same as CT stealth, you might realise that as well, and hell everyone does it because that is the only best comparison.

[NeoSuperior]

I don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground

Then just make indivudal and safe areas. Like 2 refill boxes per objective or sector.

But these areas should be unaccissible by the other team. for example:
Warehouse mercspawn. And maybe the spy spawn for the spies.

Also refilling should take time:

As i said... make the refill points in the spawns, and/or merc-/spy-only areas and let them take their time for it.

10% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 1 sec
50% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 5 sec
100% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 10 sec


If you respawn you still get all new EQ like in CT. But you could make merc's respawn time longer than spy's respawn time.
Problem solved(... well MAYBE)

[knooger]

Don't you think guys PS should have everything what was the best in all SvMs? Things which works for years shouldn't be changed because they are working as they should.
I don't imagine that refilling in boxes especially as spy.
Since SCPT you had to die to refill your eq that's something risky and disable you from game for that 10seconds + time of walking to objective.

Same with stealth and aggro, if someone want to play stealth let him do it!
Different people like aggro and they shouldn't have disadvantages while doing it.

Same thing is about grabs and JB. People call Jump "Bug" a bug but in my opinion it balanced game so much, just imagine playing story and fighting with two spions alone without this ''bug'' ping pong and you're dead.
I never cared about JB because it's thing which SHOULD EXIST in that game( That's not a problem till you don't want DM enemies ). You want to grab then take that risk or do something else. If you want to kill mercs all the time then go play DM !

[DreadStunLock]

Agreed.

But charging a wall, should make it JBless.

[Spekkio]

Don't you think guys PS should have everything what was the best in all SvMs? Things which works for years shouldn't be changed because they are working as they should.
I don't imagine that refilling in boxes especially as spy.
Since SCPT you had to die to refill your eq that's something risky and disable you from game for that 10seconds + time of walking to objective.

Same with stealth and aggro, if someone want to play stealth let him do it!
Different people like aggro and they shouldn't have disadvantages while doing it.

Same thing is about grabs and JB. People call Jump "Bug" a bug but in my opinion it balanced game so much, just imagine playing story and fighting with two spions alone without this ''bug'' ping pong and you're dead.
I never cared about JB because it's thing which SHOULD EXIST in that game( That's not a problem till you don't want DM enemies ). You want to grab then take that risk or do something else. If you want to kill mercs all the time then go play DM !

Something that did not work well, and continues to not work well, is the mercs getting equipment on respawn. The end-game becomes multiple times harder when mercs get brand-new equipment by dying or, worse, suiciding for it on purpose.

Now, this might be fixed if PS is more balanced toward spies being able to kill the mercs, but even then you're forcing the spies to go aggro in order to prevent the mercs from suiciding for equipment.

But really, I'm fundamentally opposed to rewarding people for sucking, regardless of whether it's done in FPS games or not. I could equally point to the dozens upon dozens of NES games that used to take away all of your power-ups when you died. The precedent for punishing failure was set long before the precedent for rewarding it.

[Spekkio]

You guys are completely wrong.

Spekkio: You say that FPS games refill on death because they are boring and you are supposed to die a lot, and in the next breath say that this game needs checkpoints and stealth isn't the objective. Stealth IS the objective for the spy team, and the mercs objective is to foil the spies plan. Sure, being stealthy doesn't always work, and aggro is a part of the game, but for the most part, you design a stealth game around stealth. My opinion has always been to design for stealth but not limit aggro. Same thing here. The game is not boring because you don't see anything, it is boring because nothing happens. Key difference: sight vs gameplay. If I hack an objective and you never suspected I was there and I make a clean getaway, I have beaten you in every aspect. Maps should be designed with darkness playing a key role. Otherwise why not make day maps and less routes? Stealth is key when thinking about gameplay issues.

Farley: Map knowledge always helps. No doubt. That is why the maps should not include 6 key areas but instead include the whole map in the search. If I use, on average, 3 smokes per life, I will need to hit the ammo box quite a bit. I only need to hack 3 times, but I need to refill my gadgets many more. Do you see where I am going? The ammo boxes will become more important than objectives. Having knowledge of certain vents and pathways will still help immensely.

No, you have it all wrong.

Did you ever read the email Zedblade got from Ubi regarding one of his maps? Ubi said that they didn't officially endorse it like they did Oilrig because the map did not have the right focus on infiltration. That's another way of saying that it didn't have a chokepoint(s) to force confrontation. It's quite clear from this official statement that Ubisoft did not design the game for the spies to sneak around unseen for 12 minutes, but rather to use stealth to gain a tactical position to attack the mercs and objectives in order to compensate for their lack of directly lethal abilities.

And if that's not enough, the box for PT/CT says that it's a "Stealth Action Multiplayer" game. Notice that's Stealth Action, not just Stealth.

Additionally, it's only a recent phenomenon to replenish all equipment in multiplayer games upon death. Games like Q3A and Counter-Strike, two of the arguably most popular online games ever, take away all of your equipment on death with the exception of a basic weapon. You have to go around the map to find more, and a lot of the metagame strategy in higher skill games for Q3A revolves around controlling the better weapons and armor replenishment, and team money-management in CS.

[VaNilla]

Quake and Counter Strike are completely different beasts to SvM.

[DreadStunLock]

Don't you think guys PS should have everything what was the best in all SvMs? Things which works for years shouldn't be changed because they are working as they should.
I don't imagine that refilling in boxes especially as spy.
Since SCPT you had to die to refill your eq that's something risky and disable you from game for that 10seconds + time of walking to objective.

Same with stealth and aggro, if someone want to play stealth let him do it!
Different people like aggro and they shouldn't have disadvantages while doing it.

Same thing is about grabs and JB. People call Jump "Bug" a bug but in my opinion it balanced game so much, just imagine playing story and fighting with two spions alone without this ''bug'' ping pong and you're dead.
I never cared about JB because it's thing which SHOULD EXIST in that game( That's not a problem till you don't want DM enemies ). You want to grab then take that risk or do something else. If you want to kill mercs all the time then go play DM !

Something that did not work well, and continues to not work well, is the mercs getting equipment on refill. The end-game becomes multiple times harder when mercs get brand-new equipment by dying or, worse, suiciding for it on purpose.

Now, this might be fixed if PS is more balanced toward spies being able to kill the mercs, but even then you're forcing the spies to go aggro in order to prevent the mercs from suiciding for equipment.

But really, I'm fundamentally opposed to rewarding people for sucking, regardless of whether it's done in FPS games or not. I could equally point to the dozens upon dozens of NES games that used to take away all of your power-ups when you died. The precedent for punishing failure was set long before the precedent for rewarding it.

Equipment on refil? I suppose you mean on every respawn? Now the way I see it you have a problem of mercenaries suicidng and not respawning with refilled gadgets? So that way, I can just win the game alone, since all of my sticky cameras will put him asleep if he hasn't got a gas mask?

[Spekkio]

Quake and Counter Strike are completely different beasts to SvM.

Way to follow the conversation. I said that 4 posts ago.

[DreadStunLock]

It still doesn't make any sense at all, how can you deprive a mercenary from getting a refil?

You can look at it like this. A mercenary dies, another one comes from the helicopter, what he is going to come only with a rifle and no gadgets just because that guy who got his neck stole all of his gadget from his locker?

[Cronky]

It still doesn't make any sense at all, how can you deprive a mercenary from getting a refil?

You can look at it like this. A mercenary dies, another one comes from the helicopter, what he is going to come only with a rifle and no gadgets just because that guy who got his neck stole all of his gadget from his locker?

I think you're missing the point. Spekkio is going on about how Merc's can simply suicide to get more gadgets. You can say "But they lose a life, so it's fair", but in all reality it does give off the impression that they are being rewarded for killing themselves. Considering it's not the Spy that's killing them, the spy being fully aware that they are giving the Merc a full loadout. Instead it's the Merc simply "reloading" their gadgets.

While the gadget idea Spekkio brings up sound unique... I always worry, when thinking about it, that Spies will die more often because they may spawn with no gadgets, or nearing the end of a round nobody has any gadgets. Which sounds like it'd be boring. I'd much rather that suicides/team kills just give a longer respawning period for the victim involved.. or something like that.

[DreadStunLock]

I'd agree only if:

Suicidal requires more seconds to respawn.

Nothing more, if spies have a problem mercenaries suiciding, they are forgetting the fact that they have 1 mercenary to deal with, and 1 mercenary cannot watch 2 objectives at once(Unless the PC's are positioned that way)

Also, spies get refilled upon death too, so what is there to bitch about? It's also spies job to prevent a mercenary from suiciding as much as possible.

[Ion.67]

Why not punish mercs with longer spawn times, and respawns that are further away? Hell, have a slowly opening door or a 3 second animation of the hud flickering on and off and then starting?

While the mercs do get a refill on death, they also lose 35+ seconds of gametime. That is multiple objectives with a 2 v 1 advantage for spies.

[Snakebit.]

Make 2.5-3x more spawn time on suicide if you don't like suicide refills.

But in my opinion suicide refills are fine.

[NeoSuperior]

No this is not a good idea... that would mean mercs getting killed by their own mines or a "blocking spy that hits the merc in the same frame, the mercs uses his nade and gets away but merc dies"-ed Merc would have an unfair disadvantage compared to normal neckbreaked Mercs.

So either let it be as it is, or give merc and spy also (maybe) just a overall longer respawn time, so that dying makes it hard for the mate to go on on either team

(if there are any orthographic/grammatical errors in this post, or in any of my posts in the future, you can keep them and, if you want, hang them over your bed  ;))