System requirements...

[Overstatement]

Unreal3 is great and all but it wasn't designed with light based gameplay in mind. My worst case scenario is Unreal doesn't understand pitch black (or some other lighting design) and we really can't do anything because the engine is not accessible to us. With the new age of modding, gameplay can be modded to almost whatever you want but when it comes to lower level stuff, not as much.

Lets not forget that opened source is more reliable than commerial engines (because they've been tested by more people and have existed longer) and that shaders aren't these big complex programs you guys think it is but a series of small programs(most of them so small that you can read without scrolling) that work together to form the final image.

[iservealot]

Unreal3 is great and all but it wasn't designed with light based gameplay in mind. My worst case scenario is Unreal doesn't understand pitch black (or some other lighting design) and we really can't do anything because the engine is not accessible to us. With the new age of modding, gameplay can be modded to almost whatever you want but when it comes to lower level stuff, not as much.

neither does CT or any other engine. No engine is really designed for light and shadow gameplay, or "understand the meaning of true black".

In Chaos Theory, they achieve this with the use of Glow functions. Things pass a certain color level will have a glow (emissive) to them. And things that lower than a certain color are down toned to be darker.

[Overstatement]

I said if it doesn't understand true black, we can't change how it's rendered unlike open source engines. Are you only reading half my post?

This is only 1 of many examples of problems we can run into. Spinter Cell have a lot of unique requirements that any FPSs don't.

[Tidenburg]

I thought SCDA was made on the unreal engine? It says that on the credits...
If they can do it then we can

[Tal]

wats CT run on?

[Overstatement]

wats CT run on?

Unreal2.

I thought SCDA was made on the unreal engine? It says that on the credits...
If they can do it then we can

They didn't make a mod, they had a licence. My point is that we can't reach into the engine and change whatever we want. DA had the engine source so therefore they could. Could the number of rendering bugs be an indication of how many times they did?

[Gawain]

Could the number of rendering bugs be an indication of how many times they did?

good point ^^

[goodkebab]

One must also take into account aspects beyond just the engine.

Right now our team is severely limited in the programming department.  Overstatement is the only one on here capable of doing this opensource, making him the bottleneck that this project would depend upon.  If we went open source,  this project could easily be killed if he left the project.  Games Programmers are a rare commodity, work hard, and deserve a high price.

I work with several programmers,  and I asked their opinions on doing a mod using open source.  These guys code 60hrs a week as a profession.  They are quite fast and amazing at what they can do.  I take them seriously when they say it would take 2 years (full time) to make a game if we went open source (they are quite experienced with open source engines).  Its a lot of work that I just could not trust to only one person for such a long time.   Going opensource is essentially making your own game,  our studio uses open source software for our games.

We have to also understand the experience of the rest of the team.  We have 4 guys with a great deal of experience with the Unreal Editor.  (Iservalot, Innocent, Mr. Mic, Zedblade).  If any one of them leaves the project,  we can still continue,  and as a group they can create entire levels from scratch to finish without actually using 3d software or any kind of exporters.  They are also capable of learning a small amount of scripting.   Going open source and we lose all of those skills because all levels have to be created in 3d software,  and the team has to learn a new editor and engine.

Zedblade has user access to Epic, and is working on AAA titles using the Unreal Editor....this gives him connection to information we need prior to UT 3 release.

We currently use Roboblitz for early access to UR Engine so we are not dead in the water.

And the most obvious is the reputation of UT 3.  It certainly does not harm us to use a high profile engine.  As a result, when UT is release there will be plethora of mods in production and people looking to participate in a robust community.  We hope to inspire people with our project by being as professional as possible with it.


Personally,  i do not have a preferance for what engine we use.  I am thinking only in practical terms which I have just mentioned.   Going open source would force us to rely on 1 person to code the entire thing, in a minimum of 2 years while also a alienating entire skill sets of a lot of others on the team.  We are not committed to the engine...no reason we couldnt use HL 2 for example, but this decision is not entirely based on my opinions.  It is a team decision.

[Overstatement]

Right now our team is severely limited in the programming department.  Overstatement is the only one on here capable of doing this opensource, making him the bottleneck that this project would depend upon.  If we went open source,  this project could easily be killed if he left the project.  Games Programmers are a rare commodity, work hard, and deserve a high price.

You have a warped view of the situation. If we use UT3, you'll have 1 very confused programming advisor(me, because I can't script without debugging which I can't without being able to run the game) and NO programmers. With ORGE we'll go back to C++ and you'll have 2 confident programmers (me and frvge).

I work with several programmers,  and I asked their opinions on doing a mod using open source.  These guys code 60hrs a week as a profession.  They are quite fast and amazing at what they can do.  I take them seriously when they say it would take 2 years (full time) to make a game if we went open source (they are quite experienced with open source engines).  Its a lot of work that I just could not trust to only one person for such a long time.   Going opensource is essentially making your own game,  our studio uses open source software for our games.

So you keep saying. It's great that you have people you trust and all but without having a more detailed explanation other than "it takes a long time", for me to trust them would be blind trust and also, I want to know why they think this way, there could be many reasons. There are lots of projects for ORGE already so it can't take TOO long.

We have to also understand the experience of the rest of the team.  We have 4 guys with a great deal of experience with the Unreal Editor.  (Iservalot, Innocent, Mr. Mic, Zedblade).  If any one of them leaves the project,  we can still continue,  and as a group they can create entire levels from scratch to finish without actually using 3d software or any kind of exporters.  They are also capable of learning a small amount of scripting.   Going open source and we lose all of those skills because all levels have to be created in 3d software,  and the team has to learn a new editor and engine.

I can say the exact thing about making C++ programmers learn script. Mappers learning a new editor means learning where the new buttons are that do the old things. Programmers learning a new program means sorting through hundreds of files of code in a different language without documentation. Nevermind the fact that I'm the only one willing to learn a new language. Add to that, some of our people must have some experince with one of these editors which are importable to ORGE.

Zedblade has user access to Epic, and is working on AAA titles using the Unreal Editor....this gives him connection to information we need prior to UT 3 release.

Zedblade may have an account but I don't think he'll be copy and pasting any of the pages for me. Will he have enough technical knowledge to paraphrase? I'll ask. Even if he did give me his account name and password, that would only be making it on par to what ORGE already offers in documentation.

We currently use Roboblitz for early access to UR Engine so we are not dead in the water.

That's not really a plus...

And the most obvious is the reputation of UT 3.  It certainly does not harm us to use a high profile engine.  As a result, when UT is release there will be plethora of mods in production and people looking to participate in a robust community.  We hope to inspire people with our project by being as professional as possible with it.

Yeah, a community and skilled programmers. ORGE has none of that...I'll bet that (weighted by skill) ORGE has more programmers than UT3 because ORGE is not "cool". UT3 will have a lot of 12 year olds who talk more than they script, ORGE only has people who are genuinely interested in programming. And sure there's harm in using a high profile engine, wasn't I talking about that before your post?

It is a team decision.

I'm glad that you don't get annoyed by my constant arguments. It's my way of casting a vote.

[Bionic-Blob]

what's ORGE?

[Overstatement]

Err...I meant OGRE.

[Bionic-Blob]

;)

[MR.Mic]

My worst case scenario is Unreal doesn't understand pitch black (or some other lighting design) and we really can't do anything because the engine is not accessible to us.

Every engine i've ever worked with can display pitch black perfectly well.
And with my experience in U3, it can certainly do the same.

The lights in that game bake to static light maps using simple raycasting techniques that have been used since the original quake. No direct line of sight to a light = pitch black. There is no light bouncing.

The formula goes something like this (disgarding bumps and other pixel transform crap, but the result is still the same):
pixelcolor = (diffuse * staticlight) + (diffuse * dynamiclight) + (specularmask * specularlight) + (environmentmap * environmentmask)

Given that the light value comes from tracing the light back to its source with no bounces, the only time a pixel would emerge with a non-zero value in a zero-value light condition is when there's an environment map at play, and you can even multiply the environment map with the total light falling on the surface with U3's material editor.

[Tal]

so why cant we use OGRE instead? will it also solve the problem with the system requirements?

[InvisibleMan999]

Main advantage of a UT mod is that it'll give us a bigger player base more than likely.