Game mechanics

[InvisibleMan999]

I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.

Seriously, MT is the magic ability. Go back to the MT thread when I asked "how do you sneak by a merc using MT?" and the response I got was basically: "shock the merc and run" or "large open rooms are unbalanced."

In other words, you can't stealth past him, the magic grey box will catch you every time. Your only shot is to stun him for awhile and run like hell. It's not like I'm the only one saying that MT is all-powerful, it's just that I'm one of the few who actually seems to care. A lot of people seem to have the view that God-vision is just part of the game and you have to suck it up by aggroing the merc instead of sneaking past undetected, because there is no way not to get detected. The best you can hope for is to shock him and make a break for it. Maybe you get to a hiding spot without triggering a proxy and blowing yourself to hell or maybe not, either way, the merc will have a nice idea of where to look once he gets unstunned.

Maybe it isn't large rooms that are unbalanced but rather just MT?

[Westfall]

I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.

Seriously, MT is the magic ability. Go back to the MT thread when I asked "how do you sneak by a merc using MT?" and the response I got was basically: "shock the merc and run" or "large open rooms are unbalanced."

In other words, you can't stealth past him, the magic grey box will catch you every time. Your only shot is to stun him for awhile and run like hell. It's not like I'm the only one saying that MT is all-powerful, it's just that I'm one of the few who actually seems to care. A lot of people seem to have the view that God-vision is just part of the game and you have to suck it up by aggroing the merc instead of sneaking past undetected, because there is no way not to get detected. The best you can hope for is to shock him and make a break for it. Maybe you get to a hiding spot without triggering a proxy and blowing yourself to hell or maybe not, either way, the merc will have a nice idea of where to look once he gets unstunned.

Maybe it isn't large rooms that are unbalanced but rather just MT?



You can sneak around a room if the merc has MT on....adapt

[Farley4Fan]

MT is powerful, maybe a bit too over powered.  Even so, it is still possible to sneak around a room without triggering it.  Like westfall said: "adapt".  I do think it should be dummed down a little bit however, it is just pretty much God Vision.

I usually don't even move a single muscle when I see a red visor, and when I do it is either because he has his head turned or I am behind cover.

[InvisibleMan999]

You can sneak around a room if the merc has MT on....adapt

This is what I keep hearing, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean by adapting. Believe me, I've been trying, for years.

There are a few strategies:

Camo up and try to slow crawl: Merc hears camo on EAX, switches to EMF and blows the hell out of your slow crawling ass.

Sneak by slow crawling (no camo): merc sees you in MT night vision and blows the hell out of your slow crawling ass.

Try to cross on a normal crouch: MT lights up and you're boxed a second or two after breaking cover. Merc proceeds to blow the hell out of you.

Try to cross on full run: MT lights up and you're boxed a second or two after breaking cover. You may survive, but your stealth element is now gone.

Seriously... I mean what kinds of things do you even do against MT? I'd like to see a video that involves someone actually stealthing past MT (and not by some aggro or passive-agressive style, I'm talking full stealth, one spy sneaking past one merc).

[Farley4Fan]

The things I do for sneaking past MT whoring mercs:

1.  Use cover. If you are fully covered by an object like say a box, then it will have no use and it won't detect you.  This is the main strategy.

2.  Break the line of sight between you and the merc.  Get high or get low, meaning a good 25 ft above or below the mercs line of sight. 

3.  Only move when the merc turns his head completely.  Meaning wait until he looks away then move from cover to cover ( box to box for example )

4.  Always slow crouch.  True it detects you when you slow crouch, but at times when you are far enough away or not quite in his FOV you should slow crouch.

5.  Have a partner at a different position fire some kind of grenade towards your position.  Chances are that the merc will look toward the direction the grenade came from and turn away from you.

6.  Wait for the merc to leave and don't move at all.   :-\

Those solutions don't always work but they are really the only solutions imo.

[Gawain]

papa skull, i'm pretty sure invisibleman999 would kick your but on console. being n00b/pro has nothing to do with the platform one is playing on. my intention is not to insult you, but you really need way more ingame experience with good players to have an opinion on the current gameplay/balancing.
ps: if you want to play ps, you need to get used to pc controls anyway, so why don't you start right now?

[Spekkio]

Seriously, MT is the magic ability. Go back to the MT thread when I asked "how do you sneak by a merc using MT?" and the response I got was basically: "shock the merc and run" or "large open rooms are unbalanced."

-Creep by when he's looking in another direction
-"Leap frog:" One guy shocks, the other guy moves forward. Repeat as necessary.
-Headshot with SS
-Shock + chaff + flash
-Stick to cover. There's plenty of it.
-Wait for the merc to leave. If he's not going to leave, go to the open objective instead (every map has more objectives to complete than mercs guarding them).
-Do nothing to the merc and dive to the next section of the map. Most maps are designed in a way that when you pass a particular bottleneck, you have access to multiple places. Sure, the merc will see you enter the vent, but he won't know where you're going from there (for example, even if a merc sees you go under the floor in Club House, he won't know where you plan on hitting next since you could go into Steam, Jacuzzi, Garden 1, or Lunch).
-Bait him into chasing you and have your partner grab him
-Bait him into a pre-placed cam

Now if those solutions are all unsatisfactory to you because it doesn't conform to your idea of how you ought to be able to bypass MT, then I don't know what else to tell you.

MT is a little too strong because of its NV capability and infinite range (both of which can be taken care of with normal post render and some modification to the range of the box), but it's nowhere near as bad as you guys are making it out to be. Please resume discussion on how MT nukes spies anytime they step into the map.

ADDED: I was gonna link you to seefoo's dl page since he has a bunch of videos that showcase how to stealth past mercs, but he took almost all of them down. Didn't scorpion or someone make a video site?

[Overstatement]

MT is a little too strong because of its NV capability and infinite range (both of which can be taken care of with normal post render and some modification to the range of the box), but it's nowhere near as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

Maybe this was what he was talking about and the combination of all these things (not just the 360 detection) are what he hates.

[Farley4Fan]

papa skull, i'm pretty sure invisibleman999 would kick your but on console. being n00b/pro has nothing to do with the platform one is playing on. my intention is not to insult you, but you really need way more ingame experience with good players to have an opinion on the current gameplay/balancing.
ps: if you want to play ps, you need to get used to pc controls anyway, so why don't you start right now?

Good luck with that, he doesn't even know how to counter MT. 

And since you say that PC controls are easier, it shouldn't be that hard for me to learn them.  Being noob/pro has A LOT to do with what platform someone is playing on.  Being that I am pro on console, you are pro at PC, you are noob at console, I am noob to PC.  So I really don't understand what you are saying by console doesn't matter, because if it didn't I would be pro at console and PC, and you would be as well.

I haven't played with some  pro players in a long time tbh.  But when I did they were in basically every match I played, now there are few pro players who still play CT every once in a while.  However this does not mean I am noob, and it doesn't mean I don't have experience with good console players.

[Gawain]

get scct for pc (i can even give u a friend's key), grab a mate and play me.

[Farley4Fan]

1. I am a noob to PC version ( I have never played it before go figure )
2. I am not sure if my PC can handle CT at this point.
3. When I do get CT for PC and I master the controls, I will play ya.
4. I don't have any "mates" that play PC CT, not even that much that play console CT.

[InvisibleMan999]

-Creep by when he's looking in another direction
-"Leap frog:" One guy shocks, the other guy moves forward. Repeat as necessary.
-Headshot with SS
-Shock + chaff + flash
-Stick to cover. There's plenty of it.
-Wait for the merc to leave. If he's not going to leave, go to the open objective instead (every map has more objectives to complete than mercs guarding them).
-Do nothing to the merc and dive to the next section of the map. Most maps are designed in a way that when you pass a particular bottleneck, you have access to multiple places. Sure, the merc will see you enter the vent, but he won't know where you're going from there (for example, even if a merc sees you go under the floor in Club House, he won't know where you plan on hitting next since you could go into Steam, Jacuzzi, Garden 1, or Lunch).
-Bait him into chasing you and have your partner grab him
-Bait him into a pre-placed cam

The problem I have is that none of these are MT specific. That is, you can use all of these against normal vision too, and they work just as well. In fact, many of these tactics are worse against MT than they are against normal vision. Waiting for a merc to turn his back or trying to have your partner ambush someone is much better against someone not in MT, just because the MT whore can detect things behind him, and there's no real drawback.

While MT may well be beatable if you're good enough, it has no exploitable weaknesses in the way EMF does, and in fact, it's flat out superior to normal vision. I mean, if you do any of the above suggested tactics, are there any of them which the normal vision merc can handle or detect better than the MT merc? Really, I can't see the advantage to using normal vision instead of MT except in a very rare circumstance. Gawain's example of Steel Squat is perhaps one of the few times i can agree normal vision + flashlight may be more effective, but in 95% of cases, you're better off running around in MT.

I call MT godvision because it's fundamentally not a different type of vision. Unlike EMF it doesn't let you see in a different way. All it is is slightly blurry normal sight with additional features.

And seriously as far as post render goes, I don't feel it makes as big a difference as people think it does. I've played on xbox for awhile, low resolution, no post render, and night vision is there. It's not as obvious, but you can still make out spies in the dark. You have to get used to it, but when you're used to how a level looks in MT redscale, spotting a distortion or dark spot where it shouldn't be isn't even that hard.

[Gawain]

ct runs on pretty old computers, the only problem for you will be mastering the totally different controls.
btw, do we wanna implement controllers?

[Farley4Fan]

Controllers are totally possible anyways.  If I use Vista, ( which I have ), then I can get a reciever for my wireless 360 controller and use it to play PC.  I won't exactly have to master the PC controls but my controller controls will get that much easier if I can do what PC controls can. <--- wow that was a confusing sentence lol

[Gawain]

you will always have bad aiming and/or slow turning with a controller, why don't you try getting used to a mouse?

invisible hit the nail on the hat. the probem with mt is NOT the 360 motion detection, it is the lack of real weak points. imo, forcing normal post render, slow climbing and addint a static noise should work out fine. i must admit though that i didn't play with normal post render very long, maybe invisible is right and one get's used to spotting slight brightness changes just like there are people who are godlike detecting emf ghosts. but it would make mt quite weak at detecting stationary spies in medium-large distances while doing well furthermore in the main purpose: detecting quick movement 360Ã,° in close-medium distance, especially against aggro.