New idea for Sticky Cams

[InvisibleMan999]

edit: imo there are two changes that need further discussion:
-mt
-uzi/weapons in general

It's probably best not to do much with weapons until we see how the netcode is going to work in PS. Lag will have such a heavy balance influence that we can't say for sure what a good change for weapons would entail yet.

MT is really the only big issue in my opinion that needs to be addressed. Really, some of the annoying bugs (instanade, funny punches, etc) could get fixed along with MT and that would make a good game. The rest of the stuff is just extra.

Aggro isn't a super big problem, not nearly as much as letting stealth be a viable style against good players.

[Gawain]

stealth is already a viable option. the biggest stealth killer atm is eax superhearing, but snares do help a lot.

[InvisibleMan999]

stealth is already a viable option. the biggest stealth killer atm is eax superhearing, but snares do help a lot.

Yeah I forgot about EAX. EAX needs to die a horrible screaming death. You can add that right up there with MT as far as essential things that need to be fixed.

As for stealth, it could be a better option. I was rather alarmed when I heard that the supposed "counter" for MT was to shock the merc and then run. MT shouldn't be so good that you can't sneak past it.

[HeroFromHyrule]

I think balance is mostly a function of the map. On maps like Orphanage, Squat, or Hospital, I wouldn't be surprised if the win ratio for good teams was at or near 60/40 (in favor of the merc) that you ask for.

Having said that, changing some basic things could very well give the spies that extra push they need to balance the game. I mean, taking things from my proposed changelog:

-Forcing normal-post render on MT so that the screen is blurry (merc nerf)
-Give MT a max range and, if possible, a greater gray box delay from behind than in front (merc nerf)
-Make jumping on a merc more client-side friendly (spy buff)
-Make jumping on a merc less host-side friendly (spy nerf, but really, it's ridiculously stupid how easy it is to host jump someone)
-Remove insta-frags (merc nerf)
-Lower camo activation noise so a merc can't hear it unless he's very near a spy (spy buff)
-Chaff and smoke doesn't work through walls (spy nerf)
-Snares make a softer shooting noise like in pt (spy buff)
-Adjust grab "hitbox" to be more directly behind the merc's FOV instead of offset to his left (merc nerf)
-Remove funny punches (huge spy buff)

Really, the main 4 ways I get killed that piss me off are: insta-frags, funny punches, lag charges, and landing 2 inches next to a merc when trying to jump him, but since you're a client you don't get the axe-handle smash move. You probably can't do a thing about funny punches, but removing insta-frags and funny punches will buff spies a ton on their own. I've seriously lost games due to just one insta-frag. Now take into account that grabbing will be easier/make more sense,, as will jumping on a merc. Then take into account that MT won't be uber, and you have quite a bit of spy buffs/merc nerfs in there. The only way that spies are nerfed is when grenades don't work through walls, but that's just an idiotic mechanic in itself.

I totally agree on Spekkio's point but for god sake people read the manual. Its stated in there as an elbow not a " funny punch"

I think the biggest issue with the elbow is when you sneak up behind somebody and instead of necking them you end up slapping them from behind, which makes them spin around to face you just before pushing them backward.  I _think_ that is what Spekkio means by "funny punches."

[Gawain]

As for stealth, it could be a better option. I was rather alarmed when I heard that the supposed "counter" for MT was to shock the merc and then run. MT shouldn't be so good that you can't sneak past it.

you got that totally wrong. stealth is far superior to aggro on most maps, you just have no idea how to pull it off. distraction is a quite important factor, and so is time. if you can a) sneak past a mt whore in 2 minutes or b) sneak past a mt whore in 20 seconds, b) should be the preferred option. shocking and nading the merc =/= giving away your, and especially not your partner's position. there are plenty ways you can leave unnoticed after flashing a merc, and your teammate can get a large distance while the merc is shocked. it is sometimes the only good solution for bottlenecks or big open rooms. a game where you can avoid your opponent 99% of the time would be quite boring for the merc (compare scct <=> scda). stealth = mercs wondering what the heck the spies are going to do in the next moment. i think you hate the stuff you heard about aggro on pc, but i bet it's far weaker on pc than on xbox because the mercs have way better aiming, can turn better etc.
stealth doesn't have to be slow!!

[Spekkio]

lol @ agentx's comment. AgentX wins the thread for dumbest comment ever. A "funny punch" is when you go to elbow a merc, but he jumps. The spy does the elbow animation, but the merc is unaffected by it because he's in the air. Then he lands and charges you because you're still in the middle of the animation. The best fix is to make the game "smarter" ie the spy won't elbow while a merc is mid-air.

Chaff and smoke going through walls is stupid. I was under the impression that PS is supposed to clone SvM gameplay, not just CT. That means taking the best of PT and CT, and changing the worst of it.

In PT, chaff didn't go through walls and spies got along just fine. Also keep in mind that in PT the lasers for traps was significantly shorter, and they didn't "bend" if you were the client. You could also place them vertically (which I asked for again on spy traps). In other words, you wouldn't be able to place the poison/spy trap in club house that goes from the light through the garden door; rather, you'd have to place it on the 2x4 next to the healthpack, and this is easily bypassable by shooting a chaff over there.

What will this fix? Well, I'm sure everyone has been annoyed by a host who jumps up and down between the two garden objectives without penalty. If you couldn't insta-chaff any traps or mines there from the outside, this would slow him down a bit. He would actually have to *gasp* think about when he wanted to blow the trap out.

Now, obviously PS is going to use new maps and the like, but the concept still remains. Chaff going through walls gives spies way too much quick and easy access to the map.

Likewise, smoke going through walls, floors, and ceilings is just a dumb mechanic. Smoke gas cannot magically penetrate these objects, yet you can do this and either slow the merc down or force him to waste more mask. People have said it's an engine limitation, but camgas doesn't work through walls even though the smoke does.

As far as stealth, Gawain hit the nail on the head. You usually need one person to provide a distraction (or both people take turns providing distractions). Smart/good mercs aren't going to just sit there. They will anticipate where you are going based upon how long you take. They also have a slew of tools to be able to detect you. If you can get them fixated on one person, then the other guy can have free reign of the map.

EAX can be bad depending on the player, but most of the time it isn't too bad. The worst thing with EAX is camo. Most of the other sounds can only be heard within close proximity except by a select few people.

[InvisibleMan999]

As far as stealth, Gawain hit the nail on the head. You usually need one person to provide a distraction (or both people take turns providing distractions). Smart/good mercs aren't going to just sit there. They will anticipate where you are going based upon how long you take. They also have a slew of tools to be able to detect you. If you can get them fixated on one person, then the other guy can have free reign of the map.

Of course, smart mercs will anticipate where you'll be coming, but you can use that against them too, by delaying in rushing a normally close objective. Obviously if the merc knows where you are and what vent or what not that you're coming out of, you're going to be in trouble, but the mind game aspect is fine.

I'm more worried about the fact that you can't cross a big room without getting detected by MT. Your only option shouldn't be shocking the merc and running like hell. The worst part too is that you don't even know you've been detected, because of the 360 degree detection radius. I'd just like there to be a stealthy solution to MT that doesn't involve either a partner or shocking the merc. Slow crouching right now doesn't really work because you'll get spotted by MT night vision long before you get anywhere important. Using camo runs into the EAX problem.

[Gawain]

if you don't know when you're detected  by mt and when not, you are a poor player. maybe a vision indicator on the back of the helmet would be a good idea though.

the mercs don't have to leave their position to check if you're there. there are tools like camnet, teammate, experience, etc.
in addition, on some occasoins it is a good strategy to let the spies waste time. just wait in the front area the time they need to sneak in the back, then go to the back and give up that objective.

[Spekkio]

First of all, wide open, large rooms shouldn't exist. They are poor for gameplay. Secondly, in those types of rooms the mercs will not need MT to detect you. Sure, it could make things easier, but it's not that hard to wave the laser all over the place.

[InvisibleMan999]

if you don't know when you're detected  by mt and when not, you are a poor player. maybe a vision indicator on the back of the helmet would be a good idea though.

I disagree. While there are some obvious times you know you've been detected, there are many times when you're honestly not sure. First, you don't know if the merc is even in MT if he's not facing you. Second, you're not quite sure if you had enough cover to block MT from detecting you or not. Sometimes you may just be barely visible to the merc and still get MT pinged. I mean, do you know if the merc walking around on the catwalk really saw you in the machine room on factory? How about the merc you just briefly passed on deftech outside?

There are a lot of edge case situations where it may not be immediately obvious if you were detected or not, especially when the merc is on a different elevation than you are and you have some limited cover. There are times when I've picked up a spy that had almost 90% cover on MT, and other times where I didn't seem to pick up a spy who I felt I should have for whatever reason. Lag can be a factor sometimes. Other times MT just acts a bit weird for whatever reason.

the mercs don't have to leave their position to check if you're there. there are tools like camnet, teammate, experience, etc.

True, but evading this stuff is what stealth play is all about. You want to try to get your opponent to guess wrong as to where you're going.

in addition, on some occasoins it is a good strategy to let the spies waste time. just wait in the front area the time they need to sneak in the back, then go to the back and give up that objective.

The drawback of a traditional stealth approach is that it is slower than an aggro or distraction based strategy, but the style should still be a viable one.

[Spekkio]

There are a lot of edge case situations where it may not be immediately obvious if you were detected or not,

This isn't exclusive to MT. Sometimes you might cross the merc's FOV but for whatever reason, he doesn't look exactly where you are. Other times he might catch a glance of you and you have no idea that he did.

[InvisibleMan999]

This isn't exclusive to MT. Sometimes you might cross the merc's FOV but for whatever reason, he doesn't look exactly where you are. Other times he might catch a glance of you and you have no idea that he did.

Well that's perfectly fine. That's a player who actually has to notice you. And you should be guessing if he saw you or not.

MT is the computer noticing the other player for you. You don't have to be actually seen, the game just puts a box around you and says, "here he is.". I don't think it'd be too unfair to give the spy the same kind of advance warning letting him know that his position has been compromised, it's really similar to how when you walk in front of a camera or other static defense and you get the "you've been detected" message.

I always felt like if the game itself was detecting you and not the other player, you should get a warning.   

[Gawain]

if you are unsure if he did detect you, and hes a good actor, just have to decide between getting in a safe zone or taking the risk. it adds to the gameplay if you ask me. and those situasions happen kinda rarely. just stay in slow mode against mt...
changing mt the way i suggested would annihilate the problem anyways, because every quick motion gets detected instantly.
regarding big rooms: mt is better on deftech, because its dark out there. in factory main hall for example, normal vision is at least equally strong.

[Spekkio]

MT is the computer noticing the other player for you. You don't have to be actually seen, the game just puts a box around you and says, "here he is.".

Only if you're in the merc's FOV, in which case you can see the red visor. If you're behind him, he has to turn around and hope the box is still there. Therein lies the tell: if a merc suddenly snaps around and has a red visor, you probably set off the box.

[Overstatement]

That's what I was going to say. How can you not turn around if MT is activated? I guess I'm not brave enough to risk a grab.