EMP Grenades

[frvge]

There are times when a spytrap is hard to shoot out, because the gun on the right side. If you can switch shoulders, I think all mines etc can be chaffed. However, there should be a limit on the range of laser/poison mines. Especially annoying if you can't reach it by bounching the chaff to the mine via a wall.

So if its ambidextrous and there's a limit, I dont think chaff needs to go through walls.
EMP should go through walls by definition.

[Gawain]

there are some tricky spy traps on orph and club that can be disabled way faster/reliable with chaff going through walls, but afaik spekkio already suggested giving spytraps/poisons less range.
another solution i'd prefer is the shoulder switch frvge suggested, or a safe way to lean around the corner without setting off the trap.

[Spekkio]

There are times when a spytrap is hard to shoot out, because the gun on the right side. If you can switch shoulders, I think all mines etc can be chaffed. However, there should be a limit on the range of laser/poison mines. Especially annoying if you can't reach it by bounching the chaff to the mine via a wall.

I don't care if it's hard to shoot out; that's the point of a well-placed mine. I care if it becomes impossible to shoot out if chaff didn't pass through walls. Furthermore, there already is a limit on the length of the laser. It's just really long, so most of the time it doesn't come into effect.

The poisons in storage, or the poison in Deftech building C covering the passageway, aren't submissible because they already cannot be shot out when placed properly. They don't become impossible to shoot out with the change because they're like that already. I actually believe that those two mines in particular are a driving motivation for Gawain desiring a larger chaff radius.

Furthermore, a spy trap like the one going from the first floor light across the Garden 1st floor entryway doesn't count because 1. You might actually be able to chaff it and 2. more importantly, that is a bugged trap, and unlike Ubi the PS team is going to fix such bugs. That is the entire point of Project Stealth -- to reproduce SvM's gameplay on a bug-free and more balanced platform, and ultimately add to it from there. If they aren't going to fix the bugs, or if they're just going to leave other bugs in there, then there's absolutely no point to this project. We already have a buggy game to play.

Be specific please. When you say "there are some traps that...," I tend to think you're pulling shit out of your ass because you refuse to look at the situation objectively. I don't really get what's so hard about this. I'm telling the detractors specifically what would refute my argument, yet you guys keep coming up with crap out of left field like "what if such-and-such is bugged," which is a poor argument because we should assume that the dev team is going to troubleshoot bugs, and "emp, by definition, has to go through walls." No, it doesn't because this is a video game. It's not realistic. There are only two cases you could make to refute this change:

1. You believe that spies ought to be able to move as freely as they do now to maintain balance. ie you disagree with the fundamental concept of it. So far, no one seems to disagree with the concept.
2. There are a significant number of mines/traps that would become impassible with the change, thus nerfind stealthy spies as well. Goodkebab has made this argument himself, but no one has been able to tell me one, let along many, specific places where an unbugged mine or trap is unable to be chaffed except by throwing it through the wall.

EMP should go through walls by definition.

-1000 to you for using the coveted realism argument.

[InvisibleMan999]

2. There are a significant number of mines/traps that would become impassible with the change, thus nerfind stealthy spies as well. Goodkebab has made this argument himself, but no one has been able to tell me one, let along many, specific places where an unbugged mine or trap is unable to be chaffed except by throwing it through the wall.

As I've already said, it's impossible to test sometihng that doesn't exist yet and it's not something that's immediately obvious. Figuring out good mine placements takes time, and requires you have some method of testing it. I can go through the levels and look for little niches where one could place a mine or trap and take guesses, but I can't actually prove anything, because it's an unimplemented mechanic. It just sounds like a potentially dangerous balance change on concept, which may render some traps or mines unchaffable. Of course I can't prove it, because the mechanic doesn't exist yet.

It's never bad to err on the side of caution when making a change like this, as impossible to reach mines or traps would be more harmful to gameplay than chaff going through walls would be.

[Gawain]

invisible: we already had a damn good test of this, it's called pandora tomorrow versus mode ;)

spekkio:  i liked the way the pt chaff was throw-and-forget-about-traps/mines/security in this room. though used for aggro, the radius is way too big. furthermore, with a larger radius, it's a lot easier to get tricky mines/traps (like the ones in orphanage big entrance room to corridors spytraps). chaff needs a little buff. you showed me personally that playing without chaff is quite possible.

[Spekkio]

As I've already said, it's impossible to test sometihng that doesn't exist yet and it's not something that's immediately obvious. Figuring out good mine placements takes time, and requires you have some method of testing it. I can go through the levels and look for little niches where one could place a mine or trap and take guesses, but I can't actually prove anything, because it's an unimplemented mechanic.

*Sigh*...

Yes, you can find these spots, if they even exist. You have someone plant a mine or trap that you can disable with through-the-wall chaff. Then you try to get around it without using a through-the-wall chaff; in other words, you draw your gun and chuck the chaff to where the mine or trap is. If you can't do the latter, but can take it out with through-the-wall chaff, you've found a spot to support goodkebab's statement.

chaff needs a little buff. you showed me personally that playing without chaff is quite possible.

How is the fact that you can play effectively without chaff evidence for increasing its radius? My only reservation is that if you buff the chaff radius, you are buffing aggro. Aggro is already going to receive a large buff when funny punches, lag charges, and insta frags are taken out of the game, along with fixing the jump hit detection. This might be over-the-top already, let alone without adjustments to MT and chaff radius. Mines like the poison that locks off the under route to building C in Deftech would be best fixed via map design, not buffing chaff. Then again, I personally don't believe that chaff absolutely needs to be able to hit every mine and spy trap in the game.

[Gawain]

i don't give a shit about deftech.
i don't think that aggro will receive a buff (no host grab/jump bs, way better aiming, no chaff through walls,...). on good servers with the mercs hosting, aggro in terms of breaking/jumping the merc is no real issue atm. i just like the idea of throwing chaff in a room and don't care about security etc any more, and i also like the way you can hinder someone from sniping more easily than shocking the head.
if i wanted to go for necks, i wouldn't use chaff, i'd use taze+flash+smoke. i can't see a problem giving chaff a little boost, if it gets a large anti aggro nerf.

[InvisibleMan999]

The biggest anti-aggro nerf is going to be getting rid of side grabs IMO. They caused so many problems. If side grabs don't exist then you can back to a wall and be completely invulnerable to grabs. That'll hurt aggro considerably.

[Gawain]

will one still face the direction a punch came from? will punch+insta grab be possible? (i think it should, but atm most times only the host is able to do so)

[kronf]

if i wanted to go for necks, i wouldn't use chaff, i'd use taze+flash+smoke. i can't see a problem giving chaff a little boost, if it gets a large anti aggro nerf.

Aggro doesn't necessarily mean going for necks.

will one still face the direction a punch came from? will punch+insta grab be possible? (i think it should, but atm most times only the host is able to do so)

Merc have to have some time to berserk, otherwise it will make aggro ridiculously powerful.

[Gawain]

Aggro doesn't necessarily mean going for necks.

i'm aware of that, thus i wrote "going for necks".

will one still face the direction a punch came from? will punch+insta grab be possible? (i think it should, but atm most times only the host is able to do so)

Merc have to have some time to berserk, otherwise it will make aggro ridiculously powerful.

well, if this isn't possible, going aggro for necks will be nearly impossible against good players.

[kronf]

i'm aware of that, thus i wrote "going for necks".

I think we were discussing how powerful is chaff when it comes to disabling mines in a fast way near objective, not "going for necks".

well, if this isn't possible, going aggro for necks will be nearly impossible against good players.

Huh?

[Gawain]

i suggested giving chaff a larger radius, and spekkio is of the opinion that it will be too strong aggroeing the merc.

[kronf]

i suggested giving chaff a larger radius, and spekkio is of the opinion that it will be too strong aggroeing the merc.

What? Where did he say that? I re-read all his posts in this thread and couldn't find it. Spekkio haven't said anything about aggroing a merc and chaff. He might have said that with larger radius it will make aggro easier, but then again aggro DOESN'T always mean going for necks.

[Spekkio]

i just like the idea of throwing chaff in a room and don't care about security etc any more,

Why is this necessary, and why would this be good for gameplay?

I like the idea of spies with rocket launchers. Let's put that in the game, too, cuz I think the spies should be able to shoot a rocket into a room and never have to worry about any mercs. While we're at it, why don't we restore the tazer to its PT ownage state just because I think using the tazer was fun. Point being, you're giving no reason to re-implement what once was an extremely overpowered mechanic other than the fact that you like it.

The chaff in PT was ridiculously too large. I honestly think that the chaff area is perfect the way it is now. Any larger and that "one chaff that takes out all the security" is also going to disable any merc in the room from reloading, using any visions, or sniping you. Furthermore, the whole point to changing the fact that chaff goes through walls is to slow down the spies, and I've detailed many instances where this would amend what is, in my opinion, a ridiculous game mechanic where the spies can pretty much run around freely. If you make the radius larger to compensate, you're negating the purpose of the change because where the spies needed to throw two chaffs to get rid of everything, they can now do it with one.

To be more concrete, let's use the club house 1st floor garden entry again. The spy trap is placed on the 2x4 pillar next to the health box, blocking off the doorway. There is also a mine at the healthbox, and to the left of the objective. With the current chaff radius, you'd need three to take out all those traps -- one shot near the spy trap, and then another shot near the objective. If we were to use PT's chaff radius, you could just throw one in the middle of the room and take out all 3. This would take the same net time as quick-throwing one at the spy trap, quick throwing one at the outside of the doorway, and then just running in. Even if you used a radius size inbetween, one chaff shot near the spy trap would also take out the mine at the healthbox, saving you any time that would have ordinarilly been lost by the change in the first place.

Then, when the merc comes to get you, since you caused a security failure, he can't use visions, reload, or snipe you anywhere in that terminal area. You essentially created a huge "no go" zone thanks to chaff's large radius. Hell, shoot another chaff in the elevator room near two doorways, and then the merc is really screwed.

So again, if you agree with reverting chaff behavior to PT with regards to going through walls in order to slow down spies slightly, how would increasing its radius be a good thing? You'd be negating the purpose for the change entirely, and giving a strong buff to aggro spies.

What? Where did he say that? I re-read all his posts in this thread and couldn't find it. Spekkio haven't said anything about aggroing a merc and chaff. He might have said that with larger radius it will make aggro easier, but then again aggro DOESN'T always mean going for necks.

At least kronf understands.

The biggest anti-aggro nerf is going to be getting rid of side grabs IMO. They caused so many problems. If side grabs don't exist then you can back to a wall and be completely invulnerable to grabs. That'll hurt aggro considerably.

Are you sure about this? Interesting notion considering that A) the grab area will be the same width, just shifted and B) you haven't played with it.