Equipment Grouping Explained

[Spekkio]

As PS develops, undoubtedly the team will add more gadgets to the mix. People on this forum certainly aren't short of ideas on what to add. What I want to talk about here is equipment grouping -- a method to limit equipment combinations so that the game can remain balanced as more items are added.

For purposes of this example, we'll consider the stock CT equipment for both sides. The difference is we're going to expand the number of items you can carry to 5, and the merc's flares are going to be changed to the incendiary grenades I suggested in the other thread, and pretend the tazer is actually useful. Each team is going to have two groups of equipment:

Mercs
-Group 1: frags, incendiary grenades, spy traps, mines
-Group 2: tazer, camnet, gasmask, backpack

Spies
-Group 1: smoke, chaff, flashbangs, cams
-Group 2: spy bullets, HB sensor, Camo, snares

You can take any 3 items from one group, and 2 items from the other group. This configuration can be altered on your playstyle. For example, if I'm feeling a little aggro as a spy, I can take smoke, chaff, flashbangs from group 1, and spy bullets, and snares from group 2. If I'm feeling more sneaky, I can take chaff and cams from group 1, and HB sensor, camo, and snares from group 2.

What this does is it prevents the need from balancing out overpowered equipment loadouts. Imagine dealing with triple nades + cams + hb sensor, or frags, incendiary grenades, mines, spy traps, and gasmask. It also would work well when the two teammates plan out their equipment loadouts, thus increasing teamwork.

Of course these categories can be kept organic as a way to better introduce the new gadgets that are likely to make it in, like the merc grappling hook.

[Vega]

Hmmm, a couple of questions;

1.  Why expand to 5 items?
2.  I see your reasons for putting them into groups, but when/if new items are added, it'll be very difficult to balance.  We can't foresee future items, which makes me inclined to keep it organic (as you put it).
3.  My normal loadout in CT is Smoke, chaff, flash, and cams.  This type of grouping doesn't allow this which limits my play-style, albeit it does add one more item to my loadout.
4.  What is your idea for the incendiary grenade?  You said "the one I mentioned in the other thread," but I can't find it. 

[Spekkio]

Well, if you add two more gadgets per team, then you need to expand the amount of gadgets you can take. It would be silly to only be able to take 4 gadgets out of 10 or 12. I already think that 4 out of 8 is possibly too few.

As far as incendiary grenades, imagine phospho grenades from PT. Now imagine that they do damage at a rate similar to a poison mine while you are still in the gas. When you leave the gas you glow/leave a trail for a short while, so you are identifiable on EMF.

[Westfall]

I like the idea of having a 5th slot, but I disagree with the groupings. Why can't you just select any 5 you want? Doesn't that make for a smarter spy/merc? To know his own eq? I think you should be able to select any 5 you want.

We need to start thinking about how effective most of this eq will be. Since Spekkio is on his game right now, I ask him to release a list of all the effects the items will have. Basically (name item)-(define item to fullest extent). I feel this will help greatly in the production. This list can also be edited as comments fly in, but for the most part Spekkio seems to realize what the deal is in terms of the equipment. I think the "choice-package" needs to be refined still tho.

[Gawain]

3.  My normal loadout in CT is Smoke, chaff, flash, and cams.  This type of grouping doesn't allow this which limits my play-style, albeit it does add one more item to my loadout.

that's a combination that allows host aggro only. you won't stand a chance with it against any decent team unless you have host advantage/unbelievable aggro teamplay and your partner using spy bullets wisely. plz explain to me why you like it over the usual eq, and tell me how good you are.

i'm okay with 5 gadget slots with a slot system. yes there's a need for grouping: 5 out of 9 makes 126 possibile combinations. now that doesn't seem much more than 70 (8C4), but it definitely is considering some gadgets like tazer and flares have no use, so it's pretty much 6C4=15 usable combinations for the merc...

[B1nArY_001]

I wouldn't write off flares completely. Stealth will play a big part in this mod and being able to flare an area that is dark and that you know a spy will pass through to sneak by you will allow constant illumination of an area that the spy could slip through if your flashlight moves from that spot. For all we know, flares could become very useful for eliminating a spies safe passage. Go ahead, flame me  ;D

Edit: I've witnessed them used very effectively, I just never thought they were worth giving up another piece of EQ for. If there are more slots, they just might be worth it depending on the map.

[Spekkio]

I like the idea of having a 5th slot, but I disagree with the groupings. Why can't you just select any 5 you want? Doesn't that make for a smarter spy/merc? To know his own eq? I think you should be able to select any 5 you want.

As I explained in my post, as the number of slots and equipment items expand, it becomes harder to balance all the possible combinations. As a result, certain equipment items and combinations either become mainstay (ie cams + hb sensor) or almost completely neglected (flares + tazer) because of the imbalance in usefulness. In other words, you can't take an imba aggro loadout of triple nades + cams + bullets or snares, and you can't take an imba stealth loadout of camo, snares, hb sensor, spy bullets, and chaff.

As far as "making you change your playstyle," if you choose to take triple nades and go balls-to-wall aggro, you still can. It's just that you have to sacrifice something for this -- in this case, the ability to KO mercs via cams.

The point of changing flares ---> phospho grenades isn't because flares don't have a use. Every item has a use. It's because flares overlap with a plethora of other detection modes the merc has available to him, which means, like you said, "it's not worth giving up another item for them."

[Westfall]

While you're saying ppl made standards in their eq now, don't you think they will just adapt to this and do the same thing with a bonus: extra gadget (5th)?

[neth]

I disagree with:

1. 5th slot of eq   - 4 is ok.  it makes you make choices so you cant take everything you need, that would be pointless

2. burning flares - this is really not cool. I agree flares should have tracking feature but i guarantee you that making them lethal is a big mistake.

3. grouping - well let me take what i want and let me play how i want. Dont force me to play in your or someone's else style.

[Vega]

3.  My normal loadout in CT is Smoke, chaff, flash, and cams.  This type of grouping doesn't allow this which limits my play-style, albeit it does add one more item to my loadout.

that's a combination that allows host aggro only. you won't stand a chance with it against any decent team unless you have host advantage/unbelievable aggro teamplay and your partner using spy bullets wisely. plz explain to me why you like it over the usual eq, and tell me how good you are.

Uhhh, no I never host.  That's my loadout.  I'm not that good because I play once a month or less.  It doesn't matter, it's my loadout and it should have no relevance to "OMG HOW GUD R U?  U CAN ONLY MAKE THOSE ITEMS WORK IF UR GUD."  It's a loadout that allows me to aggro, allows me to chaff mines, and allows me to cam mercs.  That's all you need to know.

[MR.Mic]

3.  My normal loadout in CT is Smoke, chaff, flash, and cams.  This type of grouping doesn't allow this which limits my play-style, albeit it does add one more item to my loadout.

that's a combination that allows host aggro only. you won't stand a chance with it against any decent team unless you have host advantage/unbelievable aggro teamplay and your partner using spy bullets wisely. plz explain to me why you like it over the usual eq, and tell me how good you are.

Uhhh, no I never host.  That's my loadout.  I'm not that good because I play once a month or less.  It doesn't matter, it's my loadout and it should have no relevance to "OMG HOW GUD R U?  U CAN ONLY MAKE THOSE ITEMS WORK IF UR GUD."  It's a loadout that allows me to aggro, allows me to chaff mines, and allows me to cam mercs.  That's all you need to know.

Triple nades and cam are also my standard (only) loadout. I can say with reasonable accuracy that I get to host maybe 1 out of every 8 games I play. Mostly playing in european servers, too.

[Westfall]

Smoke, Chaff, HB, and cams...these are gold...

[InvisibleMan999]

This system screams "needless complex" to me.

Mercs
-Group 1: frags, incendiary grenades, spy traps, mines
-Group 2: tazer, camnet, gasmask, backpack

What broken combo is the groupings preventing here? I don't get it..

No merc is going to go all group 2 and all of group 1 wouldn't even be that bad... That doesn't even act as a restriction. It amounts to: stuff I was going to take anyway.

Spies
-Group 1: smoke, chaff, flashbangs, cams
-Group 2: spy bullets, HB sensor, Camo, snares

So basically the point is that you can't go triple nade and get cams too? That's about the only meaningful restriction I see here.

Still I'm not even sure if the groups do anything meaningful except add more complexity.

Also about the 5 gadgets, What if instead we just made each side get an automatic gadget. Like all spies automatically get cams (or maybe camo) and all mercs automatically get gas mask. That'd definitely limit the number of potential configurations, while giving you something you sort of want anyway.

If you're going groups you probably want to limit them to lesser gadgets and greater gadgets. So the stuff everybody takes is in group 1 and the stuff people rarely take is group 2.

So a merc configuration like this...

Group 1: frags, backpack, gasmask, spy traps, mines
Group 2: tazer, camnet, incendiary grenades

Now there's some hard choices...

Still though I don't even feel like the groupings are necessary. Just make the weaker gadgets better and nerf the stronger ones and we'll be fine. The only time you really need groupings like this is when you feel that some gadgets are so must take that you need to put them in an entirely different category than the optional ones.

[Gawain]

groupings are necessary if we're going for 5 gadget slots and maybe 9 or 10 different gadgets. i think this is a good idea if done correctly, but first i'd say let's just replace flares with boosted phosphourus nades and balance out the gadgets we already have (range increase for tazer, 5 nades, 5 spytraps and vertically placable, instant laser mines/lower poison timer, etc).

[B1nArY_001]

Groupings might become a good idea depending on the gadgets available to both sides. Remember though, both teams get an extra gadget. This may turn out to be enough to balance things. Play testing is the only thing that will conclusively determine that.