balancing of sticky cams

[Westfall]

So, after all of that have we come to the conclusion that its pointless to make scope a gadget?

Also, maybe we should be focusing on something a little more productive seeing as how the game is far from having definitive models/systems.

[B1nArY_001]

My point is that a cluttered map like that might not be very fun to play in general.

If it was overkill, yeah I agree. If it is kept within a semblance of reality and not just tons of stuff strewn about, then I think it would force mercs to step it up a notch and be more vigilant. With the stealthy nature of PS (no pun intended) I think the players, mercs especially, will find it to be much more tense.

[InvisibleMan999]

To that I say two things:

-Wouldn't we presume that PS maps incorporate many of the concepts from PT/CT maps that worked? In other words, it would be hard to conceive a map where sniping had little or no use.
-The tazer, if made viable, will more than compensate for any claustrophobic maps.

Honestly, I can think of a few maps where sniping has little use.

-Aqua (About all I can see is sniping pirates, eitherfor the cheap 1 shot lag kill from the greek bridge or from tech walkway)
-Clubhouse (you can kinda snipe the garden objectives, but that's about it)
-Bank (really no great sniping opportunites here)
-Museum (since most of the action takes place in cafe and corridor you don't really see much sniping on this one either)
-Krauser or cinema weren't really great snipers map.

In fact, most of the maps had only a few small zones where you may want to actually snipe. Aside from that it was mostly just host-lag headshots while the spy was hacking an objective (and really those weren't very fun). The only true sniping maps I can think of are Vertigo (where sniping was pretty much essential), polar base and Steel Squat (which was the king of snipe whoring maps).  Other maps had little zones where you could snipe, like hospital or river mall and the rest of the map didn't reward true sniping much. You were granted always open to the hacking headshot, but that's not really sniping most of the time, It's more just memorizing the spies position and rounding a corner to take him by surprise and lag killing him.

In most maps, I really do think of sniping as optional. In fact most of the time the sniper rifle is most dangerous is just in the hands of the host, where he can pick you off before you know what's going on. Like the clubhouse garden snipe or sniping the guy in pirates.

Aside from the three sniper maps: Vertigo, polar and steel, what other maps do you seriously need a sniper rifle on?

As far as the scope, I think the corner lag kill ought to be worth a gadget in itself, since that's a real powerful ability you wouldn't have otherwise. The other thing would be to make people have to remain stationary while sniping to prevent or at least weaken that move.

There's actually a huge power gap between a guy who uses the rifle without zooming and a guy who is an expert sniper. The problem is that you really can't get a balanced RoF as long as the scope is automatic. If you make it too high, it takes away the sniper's classic weakness in CT, which was close combat. If you make it too low, it screws over people who don't snipe. The fact that you guys seem to fear uzi + scope (even as a gadget), sort of indicates to me that you're probably going to shortchange the rifle's regular combat capabilities in favor of treating its big ability as being a sniping weapon. Well, this is a one weapon system, and not everybody wants to be a sniper. I almost always took the uzi and didn't bother with the rifle, except for some of those rare sniping maps. Even in PT, I rarely recall myself going into zoom mode, except on vertigo or hospital outside. I don't want to get handed an inferior weapon with the balancing idea that it has a sniper scope. Because most of the time, I'd rather just be better for normal combat.

I mean, even if we're going to make scope integral, then at the very least have a gadget that ups the regular damage or increases the RoF of the normal rifle.

[Spekkio]

-Aqua (About all I can see is sniping pirates, eitherfor the cheap 1 shot lag kill from the greek bridge or from tech walkway)
-Clubhouse (you can kinda snipe the garden objectives, but that's about it)
-Bank (really no great sniping opportunites here)
-Museum (since most of the action takes place in cafe and corridor you don't really see much sniping on this one either)
-Krauser or cinema weren't really great snipers map.

I nominate this for the SCLamers idiotic post award.

Aqua: you can snipe every bomb but one from the greek door. You can snipe every bomb but one from the tank disk door. That means that you never actually have to go into tech to get the bomb if you have the rifle.
You can snipe spies cooping into office.
You can snipe spies as they're running with the disk down that long corridor leading to pirates.

Club: You're joking, right? You have to be joking...
You can snipe garden obj without leaving the elevator
You can stand in garden and snipe both upper and lower garden objectives
You can snipe spies through the paper walls in tea/lunch
You can snipe a spy hacking in steam from the doorway
You can snipe spies coming in from MH
You can snipe spies coming in from garden
You can stand at the back of the long hallway, near the doors to the back, and snipe spies as they try to enter from MH

Bank:
You plant mines under the entrance vents and snipe spies as they try to get in. This is one of the reasons that this map is completely broken.

Museum:
Again, you have to be joking. Museum has a lot of open space, which is much better for sniping than any other weapon. The best way to stop the inside/outside cafe runaround is to snipe the spies.
You can snipe spies in the ceiling as they come in the map
You can snipe spies as they try to run down the corridors to ex/mono
You can snipe spies as they try to run back with the disk
You can snipe at bombs in ex/mono

Krauser: ...

Ok, I'm tired of doing this and my lunch break is almost over. It's obvious already that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[InvisibleMan999]

Aqua: you can snipe every bomb but one from the greek door. You can snipe every bomb but one from the tank disk door. That means that you never actually have to go into tech to get the bomb if you have the rifle.
You can snipe spies cooping into office.
You can snipe spies as they're running with the disk down that long corridor leading to pirates.

Well okay cool. So you've got a lot more good sniping spots than I do. That's fine. That's your play style.

I admit, I'm a noob sniper. I always took the uzi, so I don't know all this stuff.

Still you're only actually supporting the idea that scope is powerful enough to be a gadget.

How are you going to get a balanced ROF that compensates for all that sniper stuff without making scope a gadget?

Seriously. That's a lot of shit.

[Gawain]

dude, the fact that you have no sniping skills (no wonder for a console player) is no reason at all for giving the sniper better mid range fire power.
the pt rifle + tazer was balanced kinda well (lame tazer necessary to even with ss+jump and because of the lack of berserk).

around-the-corner-headshots should be no problem at all if you use spy bullets or leave in time.

steel squat a sniper whore map? you sound like you got problems with it, so how about having your partner cover you or simply hack shutters? you could also hack onlyl for a 1-3s at unexpected places etc.

[InvisibleMan999]

dude, the fact that you have no sniping skills (no wonder for a console player) is no reason at all for giving the sniper better mid range fire power.

Here's the main problem:

In a one gun system, it's not "The sniper rifle", it's just the only f'ing weapon you've got, so you've got to live with it.

As I've said before, if you're playing CT, then that's fine. Snipers take the rifle and people without sniping skills take the uzi. That's cool and I'm fine with it. In a one weapon system, I don't like other people forcing their playstyle on me.

I realize you guys may like the sniper rifle, that's great. I would rather have a medium range power weapon though at the expense of sniping, since sniping isn't something I do too often.   

But anyway, since this discussion isn't' going anywhere, I'm just going to say that I'd like to stick wtih CT's 3 weapon system if we can't agree on what to do here. The CT system worked pretty well, and it beats going to a single weapon system if it's going to force different playstyles on people. The CT system was nice because everyone got to do what they wanted. If you wanted to be a sniper, you took rifle, if you wanted to have an all around balanced weapon, you took uzi, if you liked to blast aggro spies in the face, you took shotgun.

around-the-corner-headshots should be no problem at all if you use spy bullets or leave in time.

I dunno, I have a lot of trouble with them. Especially in laggy games. Not to mention you can't afford to always take spybullets on every map.

steel squat a sniper whore map? you sound like you got problems with it, so how about having your partner cover you or simply hack shutters? you could also hack onlyl for a 1-3s at unexpected places etc.

Yeah I suck at Steel squat, I'll be very honest. That's by far my worst map and I play like a complete noob on that map. I'm pretty good at other maps though. Personally I think that Steel Squat's design sucks, but that's just my opinion. If the shutters actually stayed closed, the map might be halfway decent. But the fact that the hack only lasts like 15 seconds and leaves you completely vulnerable on the bottom level of the building makes it almost pointless to try. Only if you don't try, there's a sniper shot or frag coming your way the moment you start hacking.

[Gawain]

the funny thing is that steel squat is balanced very well...

the sniper rifle is quite balanced because the spies can prevent someone from using the scope by ss on the head or chaff; you can kick him out of scope with flash. a merc in sniper mode is also more vulnerable for grabs, cams etc and sneaking past him due to less mobility and smaller fov. the delay it takes to get into scope mode allows the spy enough time to ss you if you don't expect him.

you simply don't have all of that tactical complications with uzi/shotty.

[Westfall]

@ Invisible: If you always take uzi, and are a noob sniper, then why bother putting any input on this topic? What do you care if the scope is optional or not? You're going to take uzi practically everytime regardless, which imo is a complete lack of skill. SPRAY SPRAY 5PR4Y/LAG LAG L46

[Gawain]

@ Invisible: If you always take uzi, and are a noob sniper, then why bother putting any input on this topic? What do you care if the scope is optional or not? You're going to take uzi practically everytime regardless, which imo is a complete lack of skill. SPRAY SPRAY 5PR4Y/LAG LAG L46

qfe

[Spekkio]

Well okay cool. So you've got a lot more good sniping spots than I do. That's fine. That's your play style.

Playstyle has nothing to do with it. Good players are going to discover this stuff and use it.

I admit, I'm a noob sniper. I always took the uzi, so I don't know all this stuff.

So then you really should stfu about the topic.

Still you're only actually supporting the idea that scope is powerful enough to be a gadget.

How are you going to get a balanced ROF that compensates for all that sniper stuff without making scope a gadget?

Seriously. That's a lot of shit.

Umm, how about you put it into PS virtually unchanged from PT? Seems pretty balanced then. Or did you not play PT?

Your entire argument boils down to this: "I'm a n00b who can't aim, so I want a gun that has a super high ROF so I can spray all over the place like an idiot. We'll just move the scope to a gadget, and that won't make the gun overpowered in any way when people actually can aim. We won't mention the fact that I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to gauging the relative strength of the rifle."

Not trying to turn this into a PC vs XBox war, but you really ought to get more PC playing experience with CT before forming an opinion on a topic like this. PS is going to be on the PC, not Xbox.

@ Invisible: If you always take uzi, and are a noob sniper, then why bother putting any input on this topic? What do you care if the scope is optional or not? You're going to take uzi practically everytime regardless, which imo is a complete lack of skill. SPRAY SPRAY 5PR4Y/LAG LAG L46

Westfall wins the thread.

the funny thing is that steel squat is balanced very well...

the sniper rifle is quite balanced because the spies can prevent someone from using the scope by ss on the head or chaff; you can kick him out of scope with flash. a merc in sniper mode is also more vulnerable for grabs, cams etc and sneaking past him due to less mobility and smaller fov. the delay it takes to get into scope mode allows the spy enough time to ss you if you don't expect him.

you simply don't have all of that tactical complications with uzi/shotty.

Exactly.

[Farley4Fan]

Just because someone uses uzi doesn't mean they suck at sniping.  It depends on what they are used to and what the situaton/map is.

[Gawain]

Just because someone uses uzi doesn't mean they suck at sniping.  It depends on what they are used to and what the situaton/map is.

situation? you can't change weapons ingame...
map (/strategy)? hell yeah. if at least one player doesn't take sniper on factory/polar/steel your team simply sux.

[Spekkio]

Just because someone uses uzi doesn't mean they suck at sniping.  It depends on what they are used to and what the situaton/map is.

Buff the tazer, remove the uzi. Problem solved.

[Farley4Fan]

wtf? Where did my giant post go?

When did uzi become such a problem anyways?  It has no long range capabilities.  If a merc has an uzi/shotty, don't get close to them.  Problem solved.  But I do agree tazer should be buffed, atleast with its range.  When I said situation I meant who you are playing against and what their playstyles are.  If they are an aggro bunch of spies, then you should bring uzi/shotty.  If they are a stealthy group of spies that stay away from mercs, bring a sniper.