each team with one set eq?

[Gawain]

it's easier to balance maps, visions and gadgets with everyone having the counter gadget.

[Spekkio]

I agree, but if the spies choose not to take smoke/cam, then the merc's 'counter gadget' is utterly useless. While it is hard to imagine that happening, you never know.

[Gawain]

mask should be a free gadget as there's the chance that i has no use at all.

[Farley4Fan]

When each team has 5 gadgets, tell me how it is imbalanced.  If spies had 4 gadgets and mercs had 5, then it would be imbalanced.  Of course that would depend on what gadgets though...  5 gadgets allows spies to be more recon/aggro enabled.  5 gadgets for mercs would allow them to be more deadly, and allow them to track spies easier.  From what I can see, that would balance out.

Learn to type.

Camo - Gas mask being forced aren't really counter gagdets anyways.  They don't even relate to eachother ever.

The only thing I can see being even considered is camo - cam net being forced, and both teams get 4 gadgets on top of those.  Still, it wouldn't be that great.

[Gawain]

with counter gadget i mean that the gadget's main purpose is to nullify another one, eg mask (against cams and smoke) and camo (against camnet). it would be better in a competitive game if there is no chance that one of your gadgets is totally useless (mask).

[Farley4Fan]

Yeah I know that Gawain.  Camo - Gas mask does not nullify the other gadget whatsoever.

If you do make Camnet - Camo forced, you do realize that everyone will pick the same gadgets from before in CT, depending on map of course.  But generally, people will bring smoke, flash, sticky cams, and heart beat or spy bullets, and they will get camo on top of it.  Same with merc:  People will bring frags, mines, backpack, gas mask, and get a cam net on top of it.  IMO, you should be able to choose that gadget, otherwise it will get repetitive using the same gadgets.

And you do realize that on some maps, camnet and camo will be useless.  Such as close quarters maps or dark maps.

[Spekkio]

with counter gadget i mean that the gadget's main purpose is to nullify another one, eg mask (against cams and smoke) and camo (against camnet). it would be better in a competitive game if there is no chance that one of your gadgets is totally useless (mask).

I believe that this is actually a big problem in general for the competitive side of SvM. The fact that you have to "guess" what your opponent has bad. This doesn't mean just smoke/cam + mask, but also camnet + camo, smoke + shotty/uzi, and flashbang + rifle.

Giving the mercs a rifle no matter what will take some of that guesswork out of the game -- that is partly why I am for it. However, that discussion is in another thread. Cams/mask aren't that big of a deal because the meta-game has evolved to the point where it's 99.9% certain that at least one spy has cams and smoke, thus making the mask useful and unsurprising. The thing is, camnet is a surprise as-is. If the spy choses to take smoke/chaff/cam/HB (if 5 gadgets, add one that is not camo), then there is going to be a big problem when the eye-in-the-sky goes on. Not to mention that thinking from a map making perspective, how the hell do I design a map that keeps camnet useful, but doesn't make security + camnet OP or security + no camnet UP?

Furthermore, almost everyone on this forum has been whining about MT like it comes down from the heavens and strikes vengeance upon the spies. Yet when an idea is proposed to give the spies an inherent hard-counter to MT instead of redoing the entire vision, people are suddenly saying no. I don't get it.

The thing is, cams and smoke don't have to be balanced around the fact that the merc might have a mask. This is largely because the mercs still have to select and activate the mask in time to avoid a cam. If they don't have the mask, it affects them. If they do have the mask, it doesn't. However, maps DO have to be balanced around the fact that the mercs might take camnet (just like they might take mines or spy traps). Furthermore, merc's visions DO have to be balanced around the fact that spies MIGHT take camo. By giving these items to the teams inherently, you allow the game to be balanced more easily.

Yeah I know that Gawain.  Camo - Gas mask does not nullify the other gadget whatsoever.

If you do make Camnet - Camo forced, you do realize that everyone will pick the same gadgets from before in CT, depending on map of course.  But generally, people will bring smoke, flash, sticky cams, and heart beat or spy bullets, and they will get camo on top of it.  Same with merc:  People will bring frags, mines, backpack, gas mask, and get a cam net on top of it.  IMO, you should be able to choose that gadget, otherwise it will get repetitive using the same gadgets.

Not true. The spies do not have one single useless piece of equipment (contrary to the mercs which have both tazer and flares). The fact that camo is a given might make some people take snares more often, since the two can have a synergistic effect. Then again, it might not. Taking away the fact that bullets can be removed instantaneously, and giving snares a more silent fire that mimics PT, will go a long way in making spies take them again.

And you do realize that on some maps, camnet and camo will be useless.  Such as close quarters maps or dark maps.

Wtf are you talking about? The maps in PS are probably going to be the same size as the maps in PT/CT. Furthermore, the mercs have laser + flashlight to find you in the dark. Camo makes it that much harder. Finally, if camo countered MT by allowing you to crouch-walk quickly around the merc, then there would be a use for it no matter what.

[Farley4Fan]

Ummm, it isn't hard to find someone in the dark using camo.  In fact, it is easier.  Push the EMF button, they'll light up like a christmas tree with very little effort to find them in the first place.  If you lost a spy, and you think he is near, the first thing you are going to do is turn on emf and check and see if he is using camo. duh.

If I remember correctly, you don't support letting people see your stats like how much of the time you use visions, or how much of anything.  But now you seem to want to know what your opponent is taking.  Wtf? 

[Spekkio]

You really need a lesson in reading comprehension. How the hell did you get from my post that I want people to know each other's equipment? What I said is that I want to take the guesswork away of A hard counters B and B hard counters C, because if you're that guy with B and your opponent has C then you're stuck with it for the rest of the round.

For example in CT, if the mercs take camnet, you are going to have a very hard time sneaking about the map without camo. If you ordinarilly play a stealthier playstyle, this means that you're absolutely fucked. Your only other option is to run around and force the merc not to look into this gadget. If you take camo without the mercs taking camnet, you're going to find its use relatively limited because they can hear you activate it.

Another example is that someone running around and chasing you with uzi + mt on is not going to be affected in the least by flashbangs. You want to have smoke grenades to discourage him from chasing you entirely.

The point isn't to make it so everyone knows each other's equipment, but to make it that you aren't at such an advantage or disadvantage depending on the composition of each team's loadout. The other solution is to implement a system where equipment can be changed on the fly, but I can't see that mechanic working in the context of this game.

EDIT: more along those lines, what happens if the merc takes mask and the spies don't have smoke/cams? NOTHING! There really is no huge disadvantage there; the spies have sacrificed an additional way to knockout the mercs (cams) in favor of something else. The thing is that the ability to KO a merc is so powerful that losing it more than makes up for the fact that the mask is rendered relatively useless. This is partly why mercs take mask without even thinking about it. If the spies don't take smoke or cams, so what? You don't really lose anything; in fact, you may have gained something by forcing them to sacrifice the ability to knock you out.

Add that to another reason why I don't think the mask should be a gimme.

[Gawain]

@ spekkio: excellent posts. i'd also like to have a more competitive environment which needs a better balance only possibile with as few guessing games as possible.

@papa: no, i certainly wouldn't take the ct loadout all of the time. i'd probably prefer incendiary nades over frag nades (most maps) and phorphorous nades over spytraps on maps with few real bottlenecks/rather open areas. the tazer would also be an attractive choice on maps like orph (against aggro @ bomb places, in front of dorm/class and to stop spies with disc).
-
knowing 1 gadget of the opponent's loadout != knowing his habits, it's like saying pt was unbalanced because you know which weapon the mercs got.

[Farley4Fan]

You really need a lesson in reading comprehension. How the hell did you get from my post that I want people to know each other's equipment? .

The fact that you have to "guess" what your opponent has bad.

Umm, right fucking there?  Those two posts completely contradict eachother.  That coupled with the fact that you don't support knowing how much of the time your opponent uses MT.  Does not compute.

Gawain, those nades aren't even in the game yet.  Those were just concepts so you can't assume you would take those gadgets.  I am talking about what we have right now, if you make forced gadgets it will be the same gameplay w/ EMF whoring mercs, Camnet whoring and camping mercs, and camo being overused to the point of which you don't even want to use it anymore because it's just boring.  And since when did anyone need camo to stay unnoticed?  Hmm?  I can easily be stealthy w/o camo and just w/ shadows.  I don't see it as a MUST HAVE gadget whatsoever, nor do I see camnet as a must have.

Sure they are some ok gadgets at times, but most common loadouts are:  Spy - Stickies, Smokes, Chaff or Flash, Heart Beat or Spy Bullets /// Merc - Frags, mines, backpack, gas mask.  I don't see camo or camnet replacing these gadgets a whole lot, only on certain maps.  Because honestly, they are only useful on a few of them.  And if you say that the maps will be like CT's, which you did say, then I foresee them being as useful as they already are: not that useful.  I don't want to be forced to bring a gadget I don't even want.

[InvisibleMan999]

For example in CT, if the mercs take camnet, you are going to have a very hard time sneaking about the map without camo. If you ordinarilly play a stealthier playstyle, this means that you're absolutely fucked.
Your only other option is to run around and force the merc not to look into this gadget. If you take camo without the mercs taking camnet, you're going to find its use relatively limited because they can hear you activate it.

I can't count the number of things wrong with this statement. First if you're playing a stealthy style, why aren't you taking camo.

Second, the only reason the mercs can hear camo is because of that EAX bullshit, which won't be in PS.

Another example is that someone running around and chasing you with uzi + mt on is not going to be affected in the least by flashbangs. You want to have smoke grenades to discourage him from chasing you entirely.

MT isn't a gadget though... so what the hell is your point? If the other team happens to have a playstyle that renders your gadget weaker, that's your problem. If you're a merc who took a tazer against stealth spies, then you can't really expect it to do a hell of a lot. If a merc takes camnet against aggro/rushers, similarly, it won't see much use. I'm not sure why spies are whining that their flashbangs don't do much against motion whores.

Part of this game is knowing your opponents. What if we just allowed mercs to change their equipment while they're dead? So you can, at worst, suicide and grab some more relevant equipment. Or possibly just be able to change at any ammo box. Though if you get rid of a placeable gadget slot, like mines or spytraps, any traps or mines you placed are also removed.

EDIT: more along those lines, what happens if the merc takes mask and the spies don't have smoke/cams? NOTHING! There really is no huge disadvantage there; the spies have sacrificed an additional way to knockout the mercs (cams) in favor of something else. The thing is that the ability to KO a merc is so powerful that losing it more than makes up for the fact that the mask is rendered relatively useless. This is partly why mercs take mask without even thinking about it. If the spies don't take smoke or cams, so what? You don't really lose anything; in fact, you may have gained something by forcing them to sacrifice the ability to knock you out.

This logic is pretty flawed. If the spies don't take smoke/cams, then you've wasted a gadget slot. It's really that simple. What are you giving up? Spytraps, a backpack, camnet maybe?

The reason mercs take mask as a gimme is because stickies are so incredibly powerful that you need the mask to even compete against them. Mask isn't a "counter" so much as a basic defense. If the mask were truly a good counter, then it would discourage spies from taking smoke or stickies, but spies take them anyway, regardless of if a merc has the mask or not. So really, the mask is not a very good counter gadget at all.

[Farley4Fan]

That's what I was thinking invisible^

[Westfall]

I can't count the number of things wrong with this statement. First if you're playing a stealthy style, why aren't you taking camo.

Second, the only reason the mercs can hear camo is because of that EAX bullshit, which won't be in PS.

Well, some of us can actually play a stealthy style without ever needing camo....thanks. Second, if you have  camo or not, camnet will find you. I will put money on it that camnet will find you. Thats just how it is, seeing as how it is practically room-based.

And for the record: @Spekkio- I feel that MT not detecting a spy when he is crouched, walking-fast, in camo. is shit (so I guess I agree with you). ESPECIALLY if the camo acts "Predator-like." You could only really not see it if it was not in motion. Camnet pwns over the MT in that aspect. It will see the movement. Did the devs decide that MT wouldn't catch a spy in camo walking crouched in fast-mode? Boo if so.

Part of this game is knowing your opponents. What if we just allowed mercs to change their equipment while they're dead? So you can, at worst, suicide and grab some more relevant equipment. Or possibly just be able to change at any ammo box. Though if you get rid of a placeable gadget slot, like mines or spytraps, any traps or mines you placed are also removed.

A spy can easily take equipment(eq.) that can counter all merc eq. Equally, a merc can take eq. that can counter any spy eq. We call this balance.

The reason mercs take mask as a gimme is because stickies are so incredibly powerful that you need the mask to even compete against them. Mask isn't a "counter" so much as a basic defense. If the mask were truly a good counter, then it would discourage spies from taking smoke or stickies, but spies take them anyway, regardless of if a merc has the mask or not. So really, the mask is not a very good counter gadget at all.

If you're not retarded you learn how to use gasmask well, which in turn makes it a very effective counter gadget. Quick-caming is an acquired skill. Maybe even leaving a well-hidden cam. If I'm tracking a spy and know I might be near because he/she has been loud, then you bet you're ass gasmask is ready to go/maybe even already on. This again is balance. I love how inept your points are.

[neth]

The fact that camo is a given might make some people take snares more often

No mate, ppl are just gonna take what they took before and treat camo as a free addition. I dont like this idea. It is heading to the point where you can have everything what you need and screw the rest.
There wont be: "oh dam, what should i take, what will be the best counter, how will my opponents play" anymore. EQ is about decisions which you can regret and not about making the spy a damn "I-Have-All-I-Need" wise guy