noise audibility

[Gawain]

camo is not supposed to work like this. it's main function is to sneak through open, maybe light areas at mid-large range. if you want to hide from a patroulling merc in a small room with camo, simply activate it before he's in 3-4m distance. if you're suprised by the merc because of bad recon / awareness, you shouldn't be allowed to stay hidden. the mercs need possibilities to surprise the spies in some way otherwise they wouldn't get a single kill against a good team.

[Farley4Fan]

Oh yeah, like you've never been charged from behind before.  ::)  But maybe you have if your recon skills suck. pff

[InvisibleMan999]

Bolded because you obviously didn't see it the first time.

Oh I saw hat. But just because the room isn't dark enough to warrant a flashlight to see clearly doesn't mean you couldn't have ti on. in fact, you're going to detect the camoed spy if you have your flashlight on or you have the laser on. The fact that you have neither on is the reason you didn't see him. Effectively as a merc you're running in stealth mode, having less detection gear active in the hopes that the spy won't see you and you can get the jump on him. The spy happens to get the jump on you because of that, I really can't feel sorry for the merc.

Seeing a merc rounding the corner fast and going camo+back to the wall is a risky proposition at best.

It's only risky if you can hear it.

No, it's risky just doing it. I used to do that on xbox, where you can't even hear camo, and a lot of the times, I'd get my ass handed to me a lot. The merc would pass by, see me anyway with flashlight or just out of the corner of his eye and then shoot me while I was standing stationary. Most of the time it's a lot more reliable to just run like hell instead of putting your back to the wall and camoing up. If you try the camo at close range trick, you're more than likely to get your head blown off. It's not nearly as easy as you seem to think it is.

I'm not saying that camo should or does make it so that you wouldn't want to stand still. I'm saying that the spy should not have free reign over using his gadgets with no additional threat of being detected when a merc is within 3 meters. Again, don't throw the "but oh he can be found in EMF" thing out there, because not being able to be detected in 2 visions is better than being able to be detected in all of them.

If you're going to buff camo such that standing still is complete invisibility then a sound makes sense. If it works like it does now where you can still see a guy who has camo on, then it's not even necessary. I mean really, you're paying for a gadget so that you can become less visible at the cost of energy for short periods of time. Camo is obviously going to do something, so sure it's going to be better than using nothing at all. 

Let's imagine we're playing factory. Merc is by the B doorway going to main hall. You are in the vent above him. Note that the merc can't see you there so long as you don't show yourself. Now, using camo allows you to safely traverse those rafters.

Having a short range sound won't help there at all. Because at worse the spy just backs into the vent a bit and gets out of the 3 meter range and then activates it. 3 meters isn't even going to make much of a concern for someone up in a vent anyway. So your scenario isn't even really going to be fixed by a short range activation sound.

Not only that, but you've just written a whole lot about how you'd find camo from up close anyway, so why is it such a big deal to you that the merc would be able to hear its activation from that range?

Well, because I hate the idea of a stealth gadget that gives away your position. There are points where you may have gone undetected if you didn't use the stealth gadget, solely because the merc didn't know you were there but the stealth gadget let the merc know you were nearby. That's just stupid. A stealth gadget should never give away your position like that. The sound is being put in solely so the gadget can let the merc know that you're nearby. I mean what the hell man? The purpose of camo is so that hopefully you go by undetected. 

[Gawain]

Oh yeah, like you've never been charged from behind before.  ::)  But maybe you have if your recon skills suck. pff

wtf are you talking about???

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Another idea: Turning camo off (or when battery ends) doesn't make a sound.

[Spekkio]

Having a short range sound won't help there at all. Because at worse the spy just backs into the vent a bit and gets out of the 3 meter range and then activates it. 3 meters isn't even going to make much of a concern for someone up in a vent anyway. So your scenario isn't even really going to be fixed by a short range activation sound.

Except that using camo takes energy, so the further back you activate it, the less time you have to cross the merc's view. This really is the balance end of why I think camo ought to make sound. Without it, you can just save it until the very last second on most occassions. With it, you will have to plan for the fact that you have limited energy.

Well, because I hate the idea of a stealth gadget that gives away your position. There are points where you may have gone undetected if you didn't use the stealth gadget, solely because the merc didn't know you were there but the stealth gadget let the merc know you were nearby. That's just stupid. A stealth gadget should never give away your position like that. The sound is being put in solely so the gadget can let the merc know that you're nearby. I mean what the hell man? The purpose of camo is so that hopefully you go by undetected. 

Wtf is a "stealth gadget?" Technically, they ALL are stealth gadgets, as I can find a stealthy use for each and every one of them. As a principle, the spy should need to be careful when using them.

[Farley4Fan]

Oh yeah, like you've never been charged from behind before.  ::)  But maybe you have if your recon skills suck. pff

wtf are you talking about???

I'm saying that no one knows where mercs are 100% of the time.  You seem to think my recon skills suck because I don't want camo to make noise in case I don't know that the merc is near me.  SO, going by that logic, your recon skills suck if you've ever been charged from behind before because you didn't know he was there.

I too hate the idea that a gadget that is supposed to help you hide will actually give your position away.

[InvisibleMan999]

Except that using camo takes energy, so the further back you activate it, the less time you have to cross the merc's view. This really is the balance end of why I think camo ought to make sound. Without it, you can just save it until the very last second on most occassions. With it, you will have to plan for the fact that you have limited energy.

Sure, you can save a bit more energy, but the more energy you try to save, the riskier it is. I mean suppose the merc sees you sticking your head out of the vent. Now he knows where you are. Now, you can wait at the edge of the vent or use HBS to see if he's there, but the end result is that now you're using more time to check for him instead of just using camo while beyond 3 meters and then going forward without stopping. So you either use up a little more camo battery (not even that much since 3 meters when you're up on a vent is what, like 2-3 steps?) or you use a little bit more recon time and save a half second of camo battery.

The game effect for a pro just isn't that much. What it does do is frustrate the hell out of newbies who accidentally get heard trying to be stealthy with camo.

Wtf is a "stealth gadget?" Technically, they ALL are stealth gadgets, as I can find a stealthy use for each and every one of them. As a principle, the spy should need to be careful when using them.

A stealth gadget makes you harder to detect. Camo is actually the only true stealth gadget in the game. HBS and spy bullets are recon, alarm snare is distraction, and cams/grenades are aggro.

[Farley4Fan]

Right invisible.

[Gawain]

I'm saying that no one knows where mercs are 100% of the time.  You seem to think my recon skills suck because I don't want camo to make noise in case I don't know that the merc is near me.  SO, going by that logic, your recon skills suck if you've ever been charged from behind before because you didn't know he was there.
I too hate the idea that a gadget that is supposed to help you hide will actually give your position away.

papa, it's not all about you. i pointed out that you should get punished if you are unaware of the mercs position. IF the spies would know where the mercs are all the time, they would almost never die.

What you folks except spekkio don't get is that camo is NOT supposed for hiding close to the merc, it's effective range is mid-large range. it's not that easy to detect spies and especially not to kill them at contact, so it should take at least take more attention and skill to stay hidden/alive close to the merc.

[InvisibleMan999]

What you folks except spekkio don't get is that camo is NOT supposed for hiding close to the merc, it's effective range is mid-large range.

Oh I get that Gawain. That's what I've been saying all along. Camo doesn't need a nerf while you're close to the merc. It's already not effective at that range anyway.

It seems like you and Spekkio are the ones who think that close range camo is crazy powerful and needs to be stopped.

My whole argument is that camo isnt' great at close range, so who cares if it's silent. It's not going to break the game.

[SITHDUKE]

If anyone has seen Led's Aqua video I think that's one of the best uses of camo I've really seen. He slips right past mercs patrolling tech. That's what camo is meant to do in my opinion and it's really not designed to go after necks all of the time. The close range activation sound kind of ensures it stays a purely defencive gadget but is still useful. I'm sure it was Seefoo I seen on Hospital that totally boggled me when he did it. I was standing on the 212 stairs, he shocked me from the 102 corner then hit camo. Due to the range I didn't see him go all the way up the 205 stairs. X_X

[Spekkio]

It seems like you and Spekkio are the ones who think that close range camo is crazy powerful and needs to be stopped.

Don't put words in my mouth. Please find a quote where I said it would be "crazy powerful."

You keep saying that the disadvantage of camo is that you can be seen in EMF, by the flashlight, and by the laser.

I, however, look at that as camo gives you the advantage that you can ONLY be seen by those methods, whereas a spy not using camo can be seen by those methods and more. To balance out that advantage, it should make some sound in a short range.

Oh I get that Gawain. That's what I've been saying all along. Camo doesn't need a nerf while you're close to the merc. It's already not effective at that range anyway.

But no one is "nerfing" camo, Invisible. It's already receiving a buff by not being able to be heard everywhere.

Really, if there aren't any Xbox players who use camo effectively when it doesn't make sound, and there are 3-4 PC players who use it fine when it does (which isn't a whole lot but like only 20 people play the game anyway), it makes me question how good the Xbox community is at using it. I'm not trying to pull Gawain's elitist attitude here saying that you suck and all that, I'm simply stating that there comes a point when you have to wonder if player's inability to use camo effectively is because the gadget is inherently weak, or if they just aren't very good at the game.

[InvisibleMan999]

It seems like you and Spekkio are the ones who think that close range camo is crazy powerful and needs to be stopped.

Don't put words in my mouth. Please find a quote where I said it would be "crazy powerful."

Well it's powerful enough that having it make noise is essential. The fact that you keep arguing about it is pretty much indicative that either you feel like silent camo would break the game (and therefore would be "crazy powerful), or perhaps you simply hate losing in arguments and will argue things you don't believe in just so you appear right.

Honestly, I'm not sure.

So why don't you tell me which one it is?

[Spekkio]

Why does it have to be extreme? I don't think silent camo would "break the game," but I do think that a silent camo has the potential to be too strong.

However, I have repeatedly argued from a game design perspective more than anything else. When you can use things carelessly, it removes tension and strategic planning from the game. And really, those things are what makes the game so addicting -- at least for me.