Electronic Glove strikes back

[Farley4Fan]

No.

The whole idea of a glove is stupid. Yes, this is my preference. If this was your game, then you can put your preference in, but my opinion actually matters, so don't go saying BS because it wasn't your opinion.

K, that's your opinion.  We have ours.

Everything you want is basically in the SS, except this is silent. You can break lights, windows, and hack mercs with the SS. Yet, people rarely do these things. Why? Because there is no real use for breaking windows or lights as it is right now.

Are you just ignoring every other use to just prove your point?  You can break lights with the ss?  Where?  Like a few places IN FREAKING CT!  This isn't CT.  Have we all realized that now?  Destructible lights are VERY possible and could be useful in PS, duh.  They would be much more common and make maps much darker and easier for spy.  With a ss you wouldn't be able to do this and with a hack glove, you would.  OR, you could do it silently with the glove and make a lot of noise doing it with the ss.

Hacking an objective remotely is the shittiest idea ever. People hated DA because of that, and now you want to put it back in? Get real. A real man hacks up close. Are you a real man?

I didn't hate DA because of remote hacking, in fact, it had some good potential but it wasn't implemented as well as it could have been.  I'm sure that most people didn't like it because the concept and depth was unappealing, lack of real teamwork and gadgets, the Presence Detector, LAG, the speed of the spy (wtf?), the maps were dull but designed well and balanced for wireless hacking, and more.  Remote hacking could be fun if implemented into a better game and not ruined by other aspects that drag it down.  I'm not saying that it should be the only way to hack, just an alternative, and sometimes it wouldn't even be the smart thing to do. 

I guess "REAL MEN" would just take the ss then huh?  ::)  Or, they could take the glove and hack it directly, to be your definition of a real man.

Traps just don't fit the gameplay. The spies mission is to get in, get data, and then get the fiddlesticks out. Setting these trap things will not help gameplay, but only make it more slow  for stealth players, and make it easier for aggro players.

Woah woah woah, easier for aggro players?  Absolutely not Ion.  They lose their nade launching AND ss abilities.  How the hell do you figure that it makes it easier for them?

All the rest of your points are retarded, and it needs no counter.

Speak for yourself.

[Spekkio]

I would like to redirect everyone's attention away from the flamewar that goes nowhere and the post I put together from what Tin and I talked about, since we basically went with "okay, we're going to put this in the game, so how can it work" perspective. Reproduced here with clarity edits:

Okay, since Tin and I don't hate each other, we talked about this over xfire:

What we agree on:
The glove would be an alternative to the SS. It would be readied like the SS, and have an aiming mechanism. The advantage of the glove would be that it is completely silent fire -- that means you can shoot out lasers, cameras, motion sensors, light fixtures, whatever to your heart's content and not be heard. This might be of questionable use on some CT maps like Club and Missile with little passive security, but in PS's new engine with presumably more dynamic lights and better maps with security somewhere between PT and CT, this would be a godsend. The merc will still get a security failure message, though, so you can't be too careless. The glove would be on the same energy system as the SS and camo (and HBS if I had my way, and Tin agrees ^_^). Each use would fire some sort of bolt (or whatever effect you want to add) and use up a percentage of the energy meter. Oh, and since run-and-gun spies is teh ghey, gun energy only refills when the spy is stationary -- applies to anything that uses energy, not just the glove. The range would be unlimited, just like the SS.

Grenades would be thrown instead of shot. Cams, bullets, and snares (sorry, I'm not using your gay names frvge) would be fired from the glove via some sort of module on the top. All selectable gadgets would behave the same as if shot from the sticky shocker. Unless, of course, you guys want to come up with a whole completely new set of equipment for use with the glove, but that starts to get very complicated.

My main issue with it was that the SS was dual purpose while the glove was not, at least not as suggested here. So what we came up with is that the glove acts as sort of a scrambler for the merc -- it takes them out of special vision like the shocker, but unlike the shocker it doesn't freeze the merc in place for 4 seconds. Instead, it disables the sound reticle for a short period of time and makes vision static-like (I would say 5 seconds to start, adjust as needed). The merc's 12 sec invulnerable cooldown time is shared between the shocker and glove, so aggro spies can't shock ---> glove ---> run around to grab. The idea here is that the glove can still harass the merc, but its main concept is aiding stealthiness. By silently taking away the reticle and visions, that merc perching in a chokepoint can suddenly lose some of his senses, which can allow you to sneak by.

Iffy stuff
Of course, the glove doesn't have to be limited to just that stuff, so here are some random brainstorming ideas that came up during discussion.

The issue of remote hacking came up. I personally think that remote hacking should be 100% avoided in the "classic" type mode and put into a separate mode if it's desired enough. However, Tin came up with a couple ideas to use remote hacking.

Before we get into these, remember that remote hacking only affects neutralization objectives. You won't be able to remote hack an extraction or sabotage objective, so there's no point in discussing the balance implications there.

Solution 1. The remote hacking can only be done on non-objective hacks.
Solution 2. Remote hacking can only be done up to a certain % of the objective (25%-50%)
Solution 3. Remote hacking requires a 2 second setup/unsetup time, so if/when you're caught you're pretty much dead.

I'm a fan of solution 1, 3, 2, in that order. Tin seemed like he was in favor of 1 and 3 moreso than 2 because 2 would lead to a lot of running around and tap hacking in the beginning of the round.

Tin also came up with the idea of a secondary function for the glove. It would work by basically holding a lock on the merc, which would prolong the scrambling effect until your energy meter ran out. I'm not sure about this myself, mainly because I question the validity of holding a lock on a merc for 10 seconds, but I'm putting it out there anyway.

Tin also threw out the idea of having the SS be able to shoot out stuff like boards, while the glove cannot. I disagree because I don't think the map access should change based upon your equipment, but his reasoning is that he doesn't like the idea that the mercs always know the possible entry points of the spies. I threw out the idea of allowing spies to swap equipment, but then the game would just become a "counter whatever the mercs are taking" game, so there went that.

Finally, Tin came up with an idea to queue up multiple hacks before hitting them all simultaneously, but the usefulness of such an ability is questionable.

I gotta say, I think it's workable.

EDIT: Also, this item doesn't have to be a glove. It can be a newly modeled gun. It could be a dildo. Whatever. Kebab and b1nary can handle modelling it as they see fit.

Discuss.

[Westfall]

For the record, just because you and Tin discussed this and had this amazing epiphany does not mean that any of this completely works or that other ideas were terrible. I can make a list with any other person on this forum of balance and unbalance for a certain item. Your post does come off as, "Tin and I have solved Pandora's Box and here is THE answer....Fin."

But, for the sake of that argument, I do like what I see. Very well defined and such. Time to pick it apart. The ideas of it being able to "shoot" are pretty cool. Scrambling the merc vision and making the reticule go away is a good call. Only flaw on that one is that if the merc has the presence detector (if in the game) will it be disabled too or will it still be activated rendering the glove useless for aggro tactic? There would be warning on the mercs screen of being interfered with yes? There would be a time scale before it actually turned off anything the merc had on to ensure that the merc is within range of the glove?

The solutions to the iffy section are just that...really iffy. Why not have certain objectives in a map that can be hacked by either glove or manually and other objectives that can only be hacked manually? This calls for more purpose of the glove and makes it still a selectable choice. All the objectives should not be both glove/manually accessed. Kind of like a disk drop off, where there might be one or two per map, but they don't determine a win unless other objectives were previously hacked. Solution 2 isn't really that bad of an idea, but would lead to maps being more "Steel Squat"-esque, which is quite shitty imo. Solution 3 is a terrible idea. Ensuring death because someone is using the glove is a pretty bad idea. The purpose of the glove would be for more sleathy reasons right? So the spy should be able to escape asap if a merc is near. They wouldnt be connected to the objective via cable. It would be wireless, so the spy should be able to just bounce. I'm not really a fan of any of the solutions. If you had a 1 sec lock up mode where what you hacked with the glove had to be disconnected before that information would stay hacked, that might be an option...not immediate death. Whereas when you manually hacked it automatically hacked off until the next time you visit the objective.

Most of the other things discussed weren't that intriguing towards game play. The queue seems pointless when theres security failures and such. If its not a glove, then the "glove" gun should have the OCP scrambler on it. The OCP shouldn't be available for both guns...unless its a gadget.

[frvge]

If you had a 1 sec lock up mode where what you hacked with the glove had to be disconnected before that information would stay hacked, that might be an option...not immediate death. Whereas when you manually hacked it automatically hacked off until the next time you visit the objective.

Interesting idea!

[Farley4Fan]

Very good post spekkio.  A lot of good things to think about.

Can I add another solution?

Solution 4:  Hack glove users can still directly hack into the terminal, but when remote hacking it takes much longer.  Instead of hacking for the original 12 seconds, it would take around 60 seconds to fully hack from it's longest range.  In other words, it takes 5 seconds to shave 1 second off of the objective.  

There are 5 zones in which it hacks:  Directly-4 ft away ~ Full speed/ 5-9 ft away ~ Double the time needed/ 10-14 ft away ~ triple the time needed/ 15-19 ft away ~ quadruple the time needed/ 20-25 ft away ~ FIVE times the time needed.

Possibly you could give the hack glove a battery that needs to recharge after a 50% hack of a terminal.  It recharges when not in use.

Very wordy solution I know, but it seems logical to me.

[Spekkio]

For the record, just because you and Tin discussed this and had this amazing epiphany does not mean that any of this completely works or that other ideas were terrible. I can make a list with any other person on this forum of balance and unbalance for a certain item. Your post does come off as, "Tin and I have solved Pandora's Box and here is THE answer....Fin."

I didn't mean to sound like my post was the end all solution; however, I do think it's the most workable and detailed version of a new spy weapon that anyone has come up with yet, as demonstrated by:

But, for the sake of that argument, I do like what I see.

Really, anything left to iron out with this is relatively minor and would be done through playtesting.

This is mostly because our conversation started something like this:

Tin: aw, you can balance anything
Me: I don't believe you
Tin: sure you can, we can change anything we want. There are spies, there are mercs, we can do whatever.
Me: I still don't believe you. What exactly would be done to make it work?

*conversation ensues*

So really, it sounds like you're criticizing me just to find something to criticize...

The solutions to the iffy section are just that...really iffy.

I posted them for the sake of discussion only. I agree they are iffy, and I don't know about them myself. That's why I didn't just flat out agree with them.

Oh, and a big fat NO to PD. NONONONONONO. It just doesn't work.

Solution 4:  Hack glove users can still directly hack into the terminal, but when remote hacking it takes much longer.  Instead of hacking for the original 12 seconds, it would take around 60 seconds to fully hack from it's longest range.  In other words, it takes 5 seconds to shave 1 second off of the objective. 

That doesn't really address any of the issues that remote hacking carries with it: namely, that A) it is extremely difficult for mercs to find the spies without a PD (which I don't think too many people would want in the game), thus making gameplay boring B) that, in the absence of extremely careful and restricted map design, the spies can hack from "safety" spots and C) that remote hacking can be used with the spy's superior speed and agility to abuse "tap-hacking." This is why I prefer solution 1: keep remote hacking off of objectives. It's fine for the few hacks that change map dynamics, but neutralization should be done up close and personal. My issue with Tin's solution 2 is that it's too complicated for the mercs to remember. "Wait, the spy got 37% with the glove, so he still can get 13% more but has to finish the rest by hand." It can also lead to a lot of the aforementioned "tap hacking" during the first half of the round.

I really think that remote hacking for objectives is best left to another game mode entirely.

Why not have certain objectives in a map that can be hacked by either glove or manually and other objectives that can only be hacked manually? This calls for more purpose of the glove and makes it still a selectable choice.

I don't like this idea for the same reason I don't like Tin's idea of certain access points being destructable depending on the weapon. He tried to counter that with the whole coop thing, but coop is always readily available to spies so long as both are alive. It doesn't take up a gadget slot, and they don't need to sacrifice anything to get that ability.

I believe that the purpose of gadgets is, and should continue to be, to assist you in accomplishing the mission. Spy gadgets do this by augmenting recon, evasion, and harassment skills; merc gadgets augment tracking and killing skills. In no way should you require a certain item or ability in order to reach objectives unless that item or ability is always available to the player.

I think with increased dynamic lights and better security placement, the glove will be plenty useful. Also, being able to scramble a merc's hud silently will also be extremely useful; for all intents and purposes, it's a similar effect of a SS headshot minus the freeze time. Think how much harder Deftech would be to defend if you couldn't just MT whore and automatically pinpoint the building the spies are in based on the sound you hear with the security failure. Not that I'm advocating PS maps be like Deftech, but it's an illustration on how the weapon can be useful.

[psyichic]

Just out of curiosity but is there any chance the glove could take on the model of a modified SS so as to prevent the awkwardness of launching things from the glove?

[Farley4Fan]

That doesn't really address any of the issues that remote hacking carries with it: namely, that A) it is extremely difficult for mercs to find the spies without a PD (which I don't think too many people would want in the game), thus making gameplay boring B) that, in the absence of extremely careful and restricted map design, the spies can hack from "safety" spots and C) that remote hacking can be used with the spy's superior speed and agility to abuse "tap-hacking." This is why I prefer solution 1: keep remote hacking off of objectives. It's fine for the few hacks that change map dynamics, but neutralization should be done up close and personal. My issue with Tin's solution 2 is that it's too complicated for the mercs to remember. "Wait, the spy got 37% with the glove, so he still can get 13% more but has to finish the rest by hand." It can also lead to a lot of the aforementioned "tap hacking" during the first half of the round.

I really think that remote hacking for objectives is best left to another game mode entirely.

I provided a pretty reasonable range, 25 feet max, in which it takes 5 times longer to hack.  Don't tell me it's going to be hard to find a spy in a range of 25 feet.  Especially because you know if he is far away depending on the hack speed.  Don't forget that spies light up on EMF when using the glove.  Without remote hacking objectives, then really the glove loses A LOT of originality and uniqueness.  It's one of its key uses, why take it away when it could still be perfectly balanced with it?

EDIT:  @Psyichic:  It could have a little barrel on the underside of the arm, or on the top side.  Think about all the movies you see where people launch things out of little barrels on their wrists.  That's what I'm getting at.  Somewhat like spiderman, but there is a more distinct launcher.  Think james bond where he pushes a button on his watch and a laser fires out, except think about a slender firing chamber on the upper side of the arm.

[Spekkio]

Without remote hacking objectives, then really the glove loses A LOT of originality and uniqueness.  It's one of its key uses, why take it away when it could still be perfectly balanced with it?

The problem isn't just finding the spy, but killing him as well. When I said "safety spots," I was referring to any spot where the spy could have a very high probability of surviving and escaping if spotted.

"Perfectly balanced" with your idea is a stretch because your version of remote hacking basically requires that maps be devoid of any objects or vents within a 25 m (or whatever length) radius of any objectives.

I don't think that remote hacking removes originality from the glove at all. In fact, remote hacking from a glove isn't an original idea in the first place; it's a direct ripoff from SCDA. And then there's the original issue that I have to begin with: I do not think the spy's access to objectives should change with optional equipment. Being able to hack at 25 m instead of at 0 m, whether slower or not, changes the way spies access objectives.

Put it another way: For all intents and purposes, putting remote hacking of objectives on an optional glove completely changes the game mode from neutralization to find the remote hacking spy. The best part? The mercs won't even know it until after you started hacking!

I think Tin is right in regard to one thing: a lot of people on these boards, including myself, get caught up in artificial constraints. In this case, the artificial constraint is that an alternative spy weapon has to be completely radically different from the current spy weapon, when that's not necessarily the case at all. We made more progress by taking the approach of we have this item (a glove), this is what we want it to do (provide a stealthier alternative weapon to the SS). This is how we would make it work (read previous post).

Look at the merc weapons: they all kill the spy. They all hold bullets and fire projectiles. They all make a loud, noticeable clank. They all work with the same gadgets and allow the merc the same HUD features. They are just tweaked to augment particular strengths and weaknesses.

Likewise, the glove or whatever has a strength in that it's silent to use. It allows you to disrupt the merc's tools for easier infiltration. Its weakness is that if you get into a pinch, you don't have anything to delay the merc, but you can still take him out of tracking stuff to throw a flash or run. Now, to compensate, the spy SS can be tweaked to be louder, or you can take away its headshot effect since the glove now pretty much does that.

[Farley4Fan]

All depends on implementation.  But a good reason to take the glove is that you aren't up for an easy headshot while hacking the objective and you can escape a lot more easily than directly hacking.  Of course there are other reasons to take it but it makes it different from the ss. 

[neth]

1. 3/4 of Spekkio's post are in the first topic post, so I dont understand this EUREKA!! behaviour, just learn to   read
2. Remote hacking should only work up to 3 metres distance, otherwise its totally idiotic.
3. Nade traps are better than throwing.

[Cyntrox]

It isn't THAT hard to place a few crates in the way of vents so that spies can't hack from there >.>

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Make it a device like this instead of copying the DA one:
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2752/schedaperbe0.png
<maybe more to the front of the hand>

[Spekkio]

All depends on implementation.  But a good reason to take the glove is that you aren't up for an easy headshot while hacking the objective and you can escape a lot more easily than directly hacking.  Of course there are other reasons to take it but it makes it different from the ss. 

Not really. You're talking of implementing something like DA, and DA sucks. As far as escaping, if the spy does his recon then escaping isn't that difficult. The mistake I see 95% of players making is that they hack until a merc comes to shoot them, and by then it's too late. Even if you get away, the merc will see exactly where you went and adjust accordingly. You want to leave before the merc enters the room.

As far as being different: the point of adding stuff isn't to make something that's different, but to make something that is useful without ruining the fun of the game. Being able to silently get around a map's security and disrupt is a useful feature, and probably wouldn't remove the fun of the game because the mercs would still get the messages, and thus be on alert looking for spies.

On the other hand, remote hacking objectives completely kills the flavor of the game. Not knowing what kind of game your playing beforehand kills the flavor of the game. Some people may not agree, but that's why I would hope that the devs ultimately put it in as a second game mode to appease those guys.

3. Nade traps are better than throwing.

Unless there is a completely new gadget set that accompanies the glove, I don't think that changing the spy weapon should change the behavior of the spy gadgets. Like I said before, this doesn't have to be a glove; it can be another gun. Hell, it could be a shoe. Whatever works.

[BurningDeath]

All depends on implementation.  But a good reason to take the glove is that you aren't up for an easy headshot while hacking the objective and you can escape a lot more easily than directly hacking.  Of course there are other reasons to take it but it makes it different from the ss. 

Not really. You're talking of implementing something like DA, and DA sucks. As far as escaping, if the spy does his recon then escaping isn't that difficult. The mistake I see 95% of players making is that they hack until a merc comes to shoot them, and by then it's too late. Even if you get away, the merc will see exactly where you went and adjust accordingly. You want to leave before the merc enters the room.

Or have your mate cover you!