changing equipment

[Gawain]

it would be needed whether there is 1 or 2 bomb objectives, but it's the biggest problem in a run-in-circle maps like museum.

how about this: it takes some time till the mercs are notified that there is a ticking bomb somewhere. we would need a higher timer for this which would help stealth and nerf the running in circle bs.

[InvisibleMan999]

Best counter to running in circles is PT style passive defenses. Nobody ran in circles in the PT version of museum, there was just too much stuff you had to shoot out.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

...or dodge.

[Gawain]

it's still possible to quickly shoot out stuff. i'd prefer moving cameras pointing at entrances so that you have to wait sometimes to disable them and stealth players can dodge them with good timing. another idea is really spamming motion trackers working like on ump cinema. with chaff no longer working through walls, mines actually would slow down this bullshit. hopefully this can be confirmed by the dev crew.

[SITHDUKE]

I don't see the real need to nerf chaff to not work through walls. If it doesn't work through walls then it may aswell not even have a quick use function because it's quicker to shoot whatever yoru disabling half the time. I doubt I'd even take chaff if that was the case, at least if it goes through walls chaff is useful for breaking the bottlenecks of a map.

[InvisibleMan999]

it's still possible to quickly shoot out stuff.

Yeah, though whether you're ducking or your just stopping to shoot, at the very least, this sort of thing prevents you from just speed rushing through the map to some degree.

If we really wanted anti-speed hack stuff, we could just implement a new type of static defense. A motion sensor that reacts only to running, but can't be shot out. That way you must fast crouch past sections of the map, and thus be slowed down.

[SITHDUKE]

Chaff is very useful at the minute, how else are you gonna get through loads of proxies with a merc shooting you or you're poisoned.(Yes both of these set off a proxy mine, slow or not) 5 chaffs with quite a miserable radius and duration isn't gamebreaking at all.

[Daybreak]

You didn't see people run around much in PT because if you triggered an alarm or triped a pasive defensive laser, you'd not only warn the merc or locked out from the objective, you'd actually be locked in the room. Having no escape basically meant your death.

[SITHDUKE]

Bwahaha, nothing worse than being trapped in storage. >.<

[Gawain]

If we really wanted anti-speed hack stuff, we could just implement a new type of static defense. A motion sensor that reacts only to running, but can't be shot out. That way you must fast crouch past sections of the map, and thus be slowed down.

good idea.

thinking more about chaff being able to work through walls i'm not so sure any more. it worked out in pt with way more passive defenses and an insane radius, but is this really how far we want to go? there are also some traps you can't bypass without chaff working through walls but this can probably be fixed with a shorter spy trap range. another way to make mines more useful against rushes would be increasing the deadly radius to the trigger radius (allows placement not directly at edges) and/or lowering the pieppiep rate.

[Cyntrox]

I think chaff should work through walls - if you're rushing and chaffing every single corner, you're going to run out of chaffs very fast, and if you're checking for mines first then you are doing recon which should be rewarded.

[Farley4Fan]

I too think that chaff should work through walls to a certain extent.  Like give chaff a smaller radius but let them work through walls.  Maybe if it disables a mine through a wall the mine isn't disabled for as long as it currently is.  Maybe it should be disabled about 3-4 seconds, giving you just enough time to get through.

Great idea invisible.  How about we just make defense systems that are about shoulder high?  They are lasers and everything but they can't be disabled.  It would be just like a long laser grid where the only way to get through is to fast crouch underneath it.  That would slow people down also.

[Westfall]

I've always liked that chaff worked through walls. Like it still isn't a giveaway with the little white particles floating around? And proxy friendly mercs suck if chaff doesn't work through walls.

[Spekkio]

I don't see the real need to nerf chaff to not work through walls. If it doesn't work through walls then it may aswell not even have a quick use function because it's quicker to shoot whatever yoru disabling half the time. I doubt I'd even take chaff if that was the case, at least if it goes through walls chaff is useful for breaking the bottlenecks of a map.

It really boils down to your preference as to how you like the game to play. There is no doubt that there is more running around on the spy's end in CT. That is due to numerous factors, one of which is the fact that chaff works through walls. If you like this style of play, great. I personally hate that aspect of the current meta-game, and think that slow and careful play should be rewarded over spamming a quick-use item to get around common trap areas.

"Oh, you planted some traps in garden? Well I has chaff, lawlz. I quick throw chaff and keep running up and down in garden lawlz while my partner runs around the back of the map lawlz."

Then there's balance issues on maps like Hospital where 1-2 chaffs can take out an entire room. As a spy, you don't even have to be careful or actually FIND the mines. Just throw chaffs so that it covers the room and run around at will.

"oh look, a mine around the corner of that box in 117. Well i has chaff, lawlz, i run up to mine and quick throw chaff lawlz."

This literally shaves off about 5 seconds, which is huge considering that the motion sensor already alerted the merc to your presence.

And removing the ability of chaff to work through walls does not necessitate a radius buff. I think the chaff radius is perfectly fine.

Now if you think that losing the ability to work through walls would make you not take the item, then that is your perogative. I would still find chaff quite useful in multiple situations if they didn't work through walls. You would just have to be a little more careful to ensure that you have enough time to use it. Furthermore, the fact that it can function as a useful aggro tool and can disable doorway lasers nearly instantly would still make me compelled to bind it to a quick-use slot.

As far as map security: I think there has to be a happy medium between CT and PT maps. PT maps were fortresses that made stealth play virtually impossible. CT maps are devoid of passive security, but the result is that spies can just run around freely. Sure, you could play stealthy if you like, but why bother?

Perhaps it's me, but I typically envision mines as a way to counter kill aggro/careless players and slow down stealthy players. But lawlz I has chaff, so they do neither.

Gawain, I can count on one hand the number of traps or mines that would not able to be dismantled by chaff if it did not work through walls, and a lot of them are due to the crooked lasers experienced by clients. Besides, who suddenly made the rule that chaff has to give you a free pass through everything no matter what? I would consider an unchaffable trap good placement. If you're looking at one, take another route or come have your partner help you disable the trap.

Looking at it another way: don't you think a gadget that allows you to bypass any and every single possible trap placement in the game in virtually no time at all, in addition to functioning as a great harassment tool because it disables many of the mercs abilities, is a bit overpowered?

Westfall, it's not about whether or not it's a giveaway. The way a lot of people are playing doesn't even involve trying to stay hidden. It involves throwing the chaff and using the spy's quicker speed to stay ahead of the merc.

In regards to the other suggestions in the thread: those are just complicated and convoluted suggestions to fix what is quite obvious and simple: take away the ability for chaffs to work through walls and make sure that maps have the proper amount of security. You won't need any special motion sensors that only magically detect someone going over X speed and behave differently by locking shit, and you won't have to make some conditional crap about chaff going through walls sometimes and othertimes not.

Can't think of a reason why chaff shouldn't go through walls? Hell, I can't think of a reason why it should. Good trap placement should necessitate good planning on how to get around them for the spies. That involves thinking about which route you're going to take in, how to get rid of the traps undetected, and also accomplish your objective. The only players in CT that I've seen do this truly effectively are seefoo and vantage. Everyone else just says "lawlz I has chaff and i runs around lots," then cries when they can't win without host advantage.

[neth]

uff, Spekkio that was long one but I made it.

I agree that chaffs should not work through walls, cause it makes no sense and supports dumb aggro.
What I also see as a problem is that chaffs are visible through walls. There are situations when spy uses chaff the normal way but merc will see it anyway. This can destroy all the plan...