changing equipment

[SITHDUKE]

patroulling within a certain radious around the objectives > camping at the objectives of course.

Okay, sorry I've lost what the point you're making is. You said in CT camping objectives and bottlenecks is a big problem. I said if you do that you'll probably lose unless you play perfectly and you're agreeing with me?  ???

[Spekkio]

I had this same kind of discussion with tinweasele way back when CT was like 3-6 months old. Considering that he and lo won 95% of their games on both sides, and he was the strategist behind the team, I think he understood the game quite well. Anyway, I bring this up because he said something along the following lines:

SCCT is dumb. You just run around everywhere and keep ahead of the merc. There is no stealth, and there is hardly any strategy. Maps are devoid of anything stopping the spies from doing whatever they want. The problem is that 99% of the people in this community blow at the game, and there are 100 different bugs that fuck you over, so they think that the spies can't win.

This is why he ultimately quit the game early on after its inception. At the time we had the discussion, I disagreed with him. However, after playing the game for over two years, I think he had a point. You can play stealthy if you want to (except against some people with better than normal EAX *cough* led *cough hack*), but if you're looking for the easiest way to win, stealth is not the ticket.

People consider maps like Club House and Orphanage balanced. I think that they are heavily in favor of a spy team that know how to use its speed and stay ahead of the mercs. Run around, bind chaff to quick use, and just hope you don't catch too many instas.

What are the two things that allow such an inane yet effective strategy?
-Lack of passive security to lock stuff up.
-Chaff works through walls, so you can't do a darn thing to slow the spies down.

Sith, I'm not suggesting that chaff stops effecting proxies altogether, nor do I remotely agree with all of Gawain's suggestions. I simply think that chaff should not give you a free pass to roam the map as if there were no traps or mines at all, and, more importantly, the runaround mechanic that ensues from such an ability is utterly retarded.

[SITHDUKE]

But you only have 5 chaffs? That's 5 doorways, corners or whatever. You can't tell me just 5 chaffs is an unstoppable linford christie hacking machine? Chaff gives a spy 5 fire and forget about mines, laser trip wires cards. Speed is their best strength, I dont see whats wrong with having that speed advantage over the mercs. A good merc team are insane and chaffing a terminal through a wall as a precaution lets you get as much time as possible off of it before the merc comes back. Yes, CT has a severe lack of passive security since you can roll through lasers anyways and cameras are right ontop of the terminal. That's surely the maps and not chaff that's to blame though.

[Test-Subject]

except against some people with better than normal EAX *cough* led *cough hack* Host advantage*cough*)

[InvisibleMan999]

Spekkio is right that the runaround strategy is particularly effective on a lot of maps. Especially if you start off by doing it, and thus get to start your run before the mercs have fully set up their mines. And really who wouldn't start off with a rush if you're doing the runaround tactic?

Stopping it may not be quite as easy as nerfing chaff though. It definitely takes some map design adding some more static security, since for the most part if you're playing against a team using the runaround tactic, you won't have time to set up many mines because the rush is on right after the spies get out of spawn. This early pressure rush really makes it difficult for mercs to even lay down their mines and traps. 

One thing with CT is that it's very easy to bypass static security for a spy that doesn't care about noise. I almost think that maybe we should remove the ability to roll through lasers, since that's definitely a big tool of the runaround strategy. You also probably need to take away the ability for chaff to disable proxies. Poisons don't really hinder the runaround much since it can just run to a health box, and while traps help, it still doesn't make your merc any faster.

So proxies are about your only chance of stopping a spy using runaround tactics.

Probably the best way to stop runaround is a couple of things:
-Chaff doesn't disable proxies.
-Mercs get a 10 second "set-up" period to place mines and traps before the spies spawn.

Alternately, maps can make use of more static defenses. Similar to PT. Possibly with specific new special defenses designed to stop runaround tactics ,like an unshootable running spy sensor, combined with PT style area lockdowns.

[BurningDeath]

The best way to tone the runaround tactics down would be to make the mapdesign somewhat like PT's Museum. If you trigger the alarm of a passive security, you can't proceed to the objectives because the doors are closed. (of course the PS-designer would be more creative than that.) btw. I'm not saying that the runaround should be removed, it should just be harder to pull off, since all you have to do now is .. well .. run around. o_O

[Spekkio]

But you only have 5 chaffs? That's 5 doorways, corners or whatever. You can't tell me just 5 chaffs is an unstoppable linford christie hacking machine? Chaff gives a spy 5 fire and forget about mines, laser trip wires cards. Speed is their best strength, I dont see whats wrong with having that speed advantage over the mercs. A good merc team are insane and chaffing a terminal through a wall as a precaution lets you get as much time as possible off of it before the merc comes back. Yes, CT has a severe lack of passive security since you can roll through lasers anyways and cameras are right ontop of the terminal. That's surely the maps and not chaff that's to blame though.

Two spies x 4 lives = 40 chaffs. There can only be 6 mines and 6 traps about the map at any one time, and if you see all 12 being used then the mercs won't have backpack to replenish them.

That also doesn't include the various other methods you could use to set off mines unscathed, and the fact that your partner can instantly disable the effects of poisons and spy traps.

There was a game we played on Orphanage not too long ago where you guys got trapped on the first floor. Had you just said fuck it and ran through my spy traps, you would've realized that there was really nothing there to stop you other than the fear that you might glow on EMF for a minute.

@Invisible,

I fully agree, which is why I support a two pronged approach to it. Maps just need to have more security that locks stuff, not necessarily more security in general. It also has to be purposeful -- putting two lasers in front of an objective or a camera right near it that gives the mercs a whole 1 second warning before a spy starts hacking is pointless. But in addition to that, the traps that the mercs place about the map should at least be able to slow a spy down if they come from the expected angle. I think a map like Factory plays much better than Orphanage or Club, simply because if you start running around like an idiot you're going to lock everything up.

@Test:

Host advantage has nothing to do with one's ability to find spies.

@Scworld:

Take that dumb MOTY advertisement off the site. It clogs up like 25% of my screen.

[SITHDUKE]

But you only have 5 chaffs? That's 5 doorways, corners or whatever. You can't tell me just 5 chaffs is an unstoppable linford christie hacking machine? Chaff gives a spy 5 fire and forget about mines, laser trip wires cards. Speed is their best strength, I dont see whats wrong with having that speed advantage over the mercs. A good merc team are insane and chaffing a terminal through a wall as a precaution lets you get as much time as possible off of it before the merc comes back. Yes, CT has a severe lack of passive security since you can roll through lasers anyways and cameras are right ontop of the terminal. That's surely the maps and not chaff that's to blame though.

Two spies = 10 chaffs, and there can only be 6 mines and 6 traps around the map at any one time.

That also doesn't include the various other methods you could use to set off mines unscathed, and the fact that your partner can instantly disable the effects of poisons and spy traps.

There was a game we played on Orphanage not too long ago where you guys got trapped on the first floor. Had you just said fuck it and ran through my spy traps, you would've realized that there was really nothing there to stop you other than the fear that you might glow on EMF for a minute.

That still leaves 1/2 mines or traps assuming he knows exactly where all of them are(which I doubt). It's not like chaff is stealthy either, you can probably hear and see it a mile away. Mercs can suicide for more equipment when the time is right so you can replenish them.

Edit: 40 chaffs OVER 4 lives of both spies? He can't use 40 chaffs one after another unless he dies and even than that's 20 unless his partner gives him the other 20 after dying 4 times too. So it's 10 chaffs vs 6 mines and 6 traps.

[Spekkio]

But you didn't read: chaff is not the only method that you can use to disable proxy mines. You can run around corners, and hell, you can just run in front of them at times because they're so damned sensitive. Lasers are so easy to bypass it's not even funny, and your partner can heal poisons (or you can run to a healthbox, which can be reached in plenty of time on almost every map in the game).

You could suicide for more, but the spies will win that war of attrition. Would you suicide down to your last life in order to get more equipment? I certainly wouldn't.

[SITHDUKE]

That has nothing to do with chaff, that's a proxy issue and at worst a map issue. Running around corners into it will usually give you damage even if it doesn't kill you. If you can trip it without damage then the mine was just ineffective because the spy came at it from the wrong angle.

Be honest Spekkio, how many games have you suicided twice in the same game as a merc for more equipment? I can't even remember doing it once.

[Spekkio]

But you're missing the point:

If the spy can easily see a mine to shoot it out or set it off, you didn't place it well. But a spy can circumvent good placement instantaneously by using chaff. So unless you somehow magically place all 12 of your defenses in a manner that the spy always approaches them from an angle where they have to use chaff to bypass it, you'll have more than enough to roam the map freely.

If chaff didn't work through walls, the spy would STILL be able to circumvent good placement. It'd just take a little longer.

[SITHDUKE]

Freely until he runs out of chaffs while making alot of noise and a trail of chaff. I don't see the problem, mines aren't supposed to be a guarenteed dead end of death.

[Spekkio]

Be honest Spekkio, how many games have you suicided twice in the same game as a merc for more equipment? I can't even remember doing it once.

Never, for multiple reasons:

1. I would never, ever suicide down to my last life against a competent team. That's stupid.
2. One of two scenarios occur by the time I'm out of equipment:
A) The spy team sucks and is almost dead anyway
B) The spy team is good and I just don't have the goddamn time to do it because I'm too busy chasing them around or worried that they'll pounce when I'm dead.

Either way, that reduces the amount of total mines and traps that the mercs will effectively have vs. the amount of chaffs the spies will have.

EDIT: The noise doesn't matter. The spy is using his speed to keep ahead of you. In other words, he's playing aggro. He's not concerned about noise. This is also why spy traps don't really make a difference in this scenario. You could ignore them completely and just use the chaff for things that can kill you.

[SITHDUKE]

Right but that's what you're there for. Mines aren't gonna do all the work against a good spy, and if he's using it all on running upto mines he's going to run out very quickly in which case you've probably still got a backpack(hell you could of brought 2 backpacks) and the spy is fresh out of chaff. If he dies, yes he has more but like I said, if you can't kill him either he's doing somethign right.

[InvisibleMan999]

Right but that's what you're there for. Mines aren't gonna do all the work against a good spy, and if he's using it all on running upto mines he's going to run out very quickly in which case you've probably still got a backpack(hell you could of brought 2 backpacks) and the spy is fresh out of chaff. If he dies, yes he has more but like I said, if you can't kill him either he's doing somethign right.

Problem is that its' a speed rush. You honestly don't have time to refill at your partner's backpack and calmly place mines about the level. The spies are always running around doing something, and you're chasing them. You don't often have time to drop down complex mine placements or anything. So while it sounds nice in theory, you don't really have that kind of time.