Variable speed vs. invariable speed

[goodkebab]

i believe it was taken out because it was redundant...even if it was derived from SP mode.


For PS,  we would need to think of purpose for multiple speeds.

[Spekkio]

I wouldn't want to use mouse wheel for such precise thing as speed movement for spy, maybe give it at least a choice of mapping it to buttons or to one button which toggles them. Just try mouse wheel in ct for gadget selection without using 1, 2, 3, 4 buttons. Not only it takes 3x times more time to do that, but you can accidentally choose wrong gadget, which usually means death.

I would think that you could map the keys however you want in PS. Moreover, you'll usually be taking your time when using the inbetween speeds, so I don't think pinpoint accuracy under pressure is going to be an issue. A quick scroll up of the mousewheel will allow you to get to max speed and get away rather quickly.

i believe it was taken out because it was redundant...even if it was derived from SP mode.

For PS,  we would need to think of purpose for multiple speeds.

Did you read the thread? I agree that it was redundant in PT because Ubisoft never fully developed the concept of traveling on multiple types of surfaces in PT (there was no sand/shallow water like in club house or creeky floors like Orphanage). Invisible and I have outlined multiple reasons why variable speeds could be useful, but here it is summed up:

-Current 2 speed system in CT:
You have various different types of surfaces: ventillation shafts, sand, shallow water metallic catwalks, and creeky wood. However, the spies can basically go fast and be heard, or slow and not be heard. There is no inbetween, so all the aforementioned surfaces just provide visual stimulation, nothing more. That's boring. People have pointed out that the 2 system makes sense because the 4 speed system in PT was useless. This is true because Ubisoft never developed this system further. Speed 1 & 2 were silent, speed 3+ made noise. That was stupid, but this isn't about simply reverting to a different control method.

-The argument for variable speed

If you move back to a variable speed, those surfaces can also actually have a gameplay impact through how fast you can traverse them without giving off a sound to the merc. On top of that, map makers can integrate this concept into their maps -- as someone already theorized, you can have gravel near the front entrance that, while giving a more direct route inside, is more noisy. Then you can have high carpet or grass that is relatively quiet, so only a spy running at the fastest speed would give off noise, or you can include surfaces in the middle. It moves away from the "all or nothing" system of "press creep on this list of surfaces."

Additionally, if we go by the assumption that you guys will fix the sound and not every action can either be heard from anywhere in the map or not at all, the variable speed allows the spy to move more quickly or slowly depending on the proximity of the merc. It would not be an "all or nothing" prospect of going exceptionally fast or exceptionally slow.

Basically, if you don't be lazy like Ubisoft and make the sound threshold universally the same for every surface, you can make the variable speed work and add depth to stealth gameplay through how fast you can move through certain areas. This can be done with or without a sound meter for the spy (and whether one should be included is really a topic for a separate debate).

It's funny how people are so quick to point out that PS "won't be CT," but you're opposed to expanding and developing an important element of stealth gameplay - sound.

[Gawain]

different surfaces (and different speeds resulting in different noise ranges depending on surface) allow a better fine tuning of the map balance, so i'm all for it. especially with no eax superhearing this could work to slow down stealth to the right speed.

[Westfall]

After hearing more and more about it, more alternate speeds sounds like a great idea.

[goodkebab]

This would involve technical limitations.

Pinging merc reticle will not change based on surfaces,  merely because it will probably be to bloody difficult to get right and introduces a lot of complicated work let alone getting game balance  right.  Artists are building maps based on aesthetics,   and I doubt they will have the energy to thouroughly play test the maps for balance.  It also introduces a lot of scripting,  and more headache then its worth.  That also means more opportunity for bugs.  For it to work,  every single texture would have an attribute,  and each map has hundreds of textures.  Level Artists are going to do their best to get quality maps,  but we cant ask them to spend 1 year making tweaks to get it right.  Its better to just accept issues,  and get more maps.

Actual audio sound,  would entirely be controlled by sound volume based on speed of spy.  This in itself is worth considering,  if we can technically control it via scripting in an efficient manner.  So spies moving fast on any surface will amplify the sound,  medium speed will minimize it, and slow will make no sound at all.

I personally feel that things like sounds and what kinds of sounds are being made are essential to game play.  Hearing a spy creak on wood....creates both depth,  drama,  effects gameplay.  This game relies heavily on sound effects so I can only hope we get it right.

Finally,  it leaves me wondering if 3 speeds will be appreciated by the players.

[Spekkio]

:( ...

Figured that the technicality might be an issue.

The thing that I don't get, though, is that Ubi managed to make that system work for singleplayer in CT with the sound meter. If you cross the white square, the NPCs hear you, and the white square moved with the amount of ambient noise in the map. Each surface raised the sound meter by various amounts depending on what the surface was.

Moving that to multiplayer, that white square could represent the threshold for a reticle ping. Considering lazy Ubi was able to do it for SP, would it really entail everything that you are talking about?

[frvge]

We can't get really deep in the engine. Lack of engine-code, experienced programmers and time.

A 3 way thing doesnt sound bad. I think it's better than 5 or 4, while it's still fairly easy as 2.

[neth]

Is it ? I agree with Kronf here. It will make it harder to pick the right speed in the middle of the game when there is not much time to rethink every decision. At least let people choose if they move with 2 speeds or 3. Besides, as we know now, its very hard to add sound to every texture, so the idea loses its main point.

[Overstatement]

The engine has a pretty good material system so I don't really see a problem with assigning sounds to floors and stuff. I'm not really convinced that level artists wouldn't enjoy tweaking materials. I would, if I were making levels.

My problem with this idea is there is no low, med, high sounds. Some people play with headphones, with loud/soft speakers or with other people in the room watching TV. So volume has a different meaning for everyone.

[Test-Subject]

This would involve technical limitations.

Pinging merc reticle will not change based on surfaces,  merely because it will probably be to bloody difficult to get right and introduces a lot of complicated work let alone getting game balance  right.  Artists are building maps based on aesthetics,   and I doubt they will have the energy to thouroughly play test the maps for balance.  It also introduces a lot of scripting,  and more headache then its worth.  That also means more opportunity for bugs.  For it to work,  every single texture would have an attribute,  and each map has hundreds of textures.  Level Artists are going to do their best to get quality maps,  but we cant ask them to spend 1 year making tweaks to get it right.  Its better to just accept issues,  and get more maps.

Actual audio sound,  would entirely be controlled by sound volume based on speed of spy.  This in itself is worth considering,  if we can technically control it via scripting in an efficient manner.  So spies moving fast on any surface will amplify the sound,  medium speed will minimize it, and slow will make no sound at all.

I personally feel that things like sounds and what kinds of sounds are being made are essential to game play.  Hearing a spy creak on wood....creates both depth,  drama,  effects gameplay.  This game relies heavily on sound effects so I can only hope we get it right.

Finally,  it leaves me wondering if 3 speeds will be appreciated by the players.

I have no idea how scripting works but couldn't you give "sound" a number than determis the range at what it's heard
For exemple (I will make it with 3 speed but works will any variable and the number are only for the principle)
--------------
Slow = 0
Medium = 10
Runing = 15
--------------
Crouch = -15
Stading = 0
--------------
Carpet = -3
hard wood floor = +2
some metal thing = +6
through wall = -6
through paper wall = 0
through in floor = -10
etc
-------------------
then for the distance hearing

at 0 = not heard at all
from 1 to 5 = range close
from 6 to 10 = medium
from 11 to 15 = Far
from 15 to 10 = you wake up the neighbors
---------------------
too know what sound you make you take ur basics speed then add the modifier :
Running (15) + crouch (-15) + Metal thing (+6) = 6

ur heard from medium range if the merc is in the same room
and ur not heard if he is in the other room

[Spekkio]

I'm not really convinced that level artists wouldn't enjoy tweaking materials. I would, if I were making levels.

As would I

[element54]

has anyone mentioned 3 speeds yet? i saw that spekkio has something for 5 speeds but that just seems a bit overboard and too much to work with.

slowest: material won't make noise, mercs can't hear you and proxy mines won't blow.
medium: material still won't make noise and mercs won't have the sound reticule ping but you will set off proxy mines.
fast: you fail. mercs can hear you, sound reticule will ping and you set off mines.

this seems a pretty easy solution to me.

[Farley4Fan]

Element are you talking about speeds for standing up?  Those settings would simply not work for crouched moving spy.

[element54]

Element are you talking about speeds for standing up?  Those settings would simply not work for crouched moving spy.

I don't think my spy is ever standing up unless he is running or grabbing a merc.

[Farley4Fan]

Oh, I read your descriptions wrong.