footsteps > hbs

[Westfall]

it was common at one point, and it has killed you a bunch of times.

I lol-ed.

I seriously still think that the snipe mode from SCCT was just fine. Don't fix or recreate something that ain't broke.

Not everyone uses rifle Invisible. So now take the portion that do use rifle and realize that more than 75% of people playing don't even snipe as much as you are saying. Some people do, yes, but that doesn't mean others have the same play style. They differ from player to player and you find what works for you.

Snipe mode now (not DA now, but CT now) has no problems in my eyes.

[Gawain]

in all the games i played vs lediniz, vedhoc, 2face, illusion, sithduke, athelstan etc the last weeks i got no single snap headshot. you're really exaggerating here. the good spies have adapted to the situation and simply don't give the merc that opportunity very often.

i'm all for a single weapon (pt rifle) system. it's way easier to balance and the point "i wanna use uzi i'm no sniper" is just bullshit, as the rifle is a quite versatile weapon and you need to learn sniping anyways for some maps.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Yeah, i lately roamed aound on some maps in PT... and i must say that i REALLY looked, felt, and played better than CT (if you're not a dj user ofcourse).

[BurningDeath]

i'm all for a single weapon (pt rifle) system. it's way easier to balance and the point "i wanna use uzi i'm no sniper" is just bullshit, as the rifle is a quite versatile weapon and you need to learn sniping anyways for some maps.

I have to disagree. You can very well play and win every single map using the uzi (given your partner has a rifle on some maps, of course). I always found it nice to surprise the spies by using a weapon they didn't expect (shotty on club - gold!).


btw. youre really pro, you play against all the good players, I wish I was as good as you!!!  ::)

[Gawain]

i didn't say that i'm "really pro" my sweetie.

[AgentX_003]

please gawain  remember that there will be  People from mod of the year here at some point looking at the main site soo please keep it the  insults to flat zero at all costs

[InvisibleMan999]

This is incorrect. People use auto-fire plenty. The amount of people trying to imitate Mr.Mic's sniping vid has drastically decreased since a long time ago.

Given I haven't played the PC version in awhile, this may actually be true, so I don't know. All I can say is that back when I played, snap shot style sniping was all the rave.

And I remember it being particularly deadly. Though maybe most of it I remember was just host snipes, since host sniper was by far the worst. 

And even if they didn't, so what? That's their choice as a player. I really don't see a valid argument here. You are basically asking for something to be altered because it doesn't fit your constricted definition of what it "should" be, it was common at one point, and it has killed you a bunch of times.

Well, yeah that is the argument. In the end, all opinions about this game are based on how we think the game "should" be. There's no real right or wrong opinion as far as that goes. Some people might want a DM style game of twitch skills, other people want a tactical game and so on.

So as far as saying how I feel the game "should" be, there's nothing wrong with that. Everytime any of us posts, we pretty much state how we think the game should be. Unlike ubi, we all hope the creators of PS are listening to our ideas and using them to the best of effect, instead of just blindly going with whatever they feel like, similar to what ubi did.

And while I think CT was a good game, I always felt there were certain things that needed addressing to make it a better game. One of them is making the weapons more tactically rounded and interesting. I'd even consider something where you can swap out your weapon at the ammo box or something, so that people can tactically switch their position mid-game.

As far as telling people how to play, game mechanics are going to do that regardless. Nobody snipes with a shotgun, because the game won't let you. So, there are going to be restrictions on the game regardless of what you do. I don't see making some tweaks to how sniping works to be extremely bad for the game.

i'm all for a single weapon (pt rifle) system. it's way easier to balance and the point "i wanna use uzi i'm no sniper" is just bullshit, as the rifle is a quite versatile weapon and you need to learn sniping anyways for some maps.

Well honestly, I feel it's too versatile. If this were a one weapon game like PT, you may have a point. But kebab already said he's integrating three weapons, meaning we've got to try to balance those three weapons.

The idea of the one weapon system is out the window by the design team, so we might as well not dwell on it like it was the primary balance point.

We're doing three weapons, and that means they need to have weaknesses and strengths. Shotgun we already know is good at short range, and sucky at long range. The uzi and the rifle are still open for some tweaking, though it's pretty much assumed the rifle is going to be good at long range, because it's the weapon with the scope.

I'm all fine with the rifle being a good weapon on sniping or long range levels, like station or factory. That's fine. But I don't want it being an uber weapon. Like it or not, there are still two other weapons.

[Gawain]

atm, uzi is the "uber" weapon, not sniper. shotty has very limited use and is quite useless against good players (with no lag/host advantage), though it's possible to play with shotty on some maps if the other merc takes uzi/sniper.
there are strong reasons why a one weapon system is superior to a three weapon system. i always thought ps wanted to take the best gameplay elements of pt/ct/da and not only ct. maybe spekkio should make a list why pt rifle only is superior as he can express himself more clearly in english than me.

[Spekkio]

Ok, this discussion about 3 vs 1 weapons has been had before. The general consensus is that most people want to keep the 3 weapon system, so there's no point in arguing over it anymore.

I'm all fine with the rifle being a good weapon on sniping or long range levels, like station or factory. That's fine. But I don't want it being an uber weapon. Like it or not, there are still two other weapons.

The problem is that you can't switch between the weapons. It's not like you can hit #2 and take out the uzi, then hit #1 to take out the rifle. In the context of SvM gameplay, you need weapons that are versatile because otherwise the spies will just adapt to the situation and exploit it.

If we followed your suggestion and gimped the rifle's full-auto power even further, and paired it with fixing crap like funny punches and lag charges, taking it is just asking to be eliminated by a good team.

I think if you fixed the random convulsions/lag that went along with the uzi, it'd be a lot less powerful than it currently is, simply because the spies will treat it like the shotgun -- shock and stay away. But even still, the uzi can function as a semi-sniping weapon due to its very low spread. While you won't actually kill the spy, you can use it to keep him off of objectives or to "snipe" at placed bombs. Therefore it's very strong at close/medium range, and still has some adaptability to longer range.

That's the reason few people tend to take the shotgun except on the most claustrophobic of maps. Most of the time it lacks the adaptablity to long range that is afforded by the other two weapons.

The bottom line is that specialist weapons work in deathmatch type games because you can get more than one and switch on the fly. SvM doesn't allow you to do that. You make your decision before the match even starts, and you have to hope that it's the right one. Therefore, while the weapons can have specific strengths, they have to be generalist enough where they can somewhat adapt to an un-ideal situation. Quick sniping at a spy 3 feet from you isn't ideal; it's the product of a comparatively weak full-auto function paired with too many adolescents watching a sniper video.

The only weapon that lacks adaptability, really, is the shotgun, so perhaps more brainstorming should be done on how to adapt it to longer range. Maybe a secondary type of round that does lower damage but hits more accurately that is fired through using the snipe button. Would also be handy for taking out spy bullets and snares.

Finally, as has been stated: people have since learned to adapt to mercs who are way too sniper happy. See a merc, start moving in a zig-zag. Throw a flashbang to take him out of snipe and shock him. Throw a chaff at him. Whatever. Just don't stand still or run straight toward/away from him, and you shouldn't have a problem.

Well, yeah that is the argument. In the end, all opinions about this game are based on how we think the game "should" be.

Yes, but usually there's more support and reasoning besides "it was common back in the day and I died a lot to it, so change it."

[InvisibleMan999]

The problem is that you can't switch between the weapons. It's not like you can hit #2 and take out the uzi, then hit #1 to take out the rifle. In the context of SvM gameplay, you need weapons that are versatile because otherwise the spies will just adapt to the situation and exploit it.

If we followed your suggestion and gimped the rifle's full-auto power even further, and paired it with fixing
crap like funny punches and lag charges, taking it is just asking to be eliminated by a good team.

Yeah, that's true. So I suppose we probably shouldn't try to specialize it as much. The only problem we have currently is that the shotgun right now is specialized, so unless we somehow turn that into a more general purpose weapon, things may be difficult.

But you're right that we can't afford to gimp one weapon too much in one area, because you can't switch on the fly, so gimping full auto is probably too extreme.

That's originally why I was pushing to change around the sniping function a bit and make the full auto better. The gimping full auto thing was mostly a last resort if people insist on use snap shot sniping for everything (medium or short range), then we could just make that the rifle's thing, and make the rifle real weak up close. That's probably too extreme though, because an aggro team would chew you up (though maybe not so much with an upgraded taser).

And I certainly agree with you that the uzi gets nerfed just by having the lag removed. The uzi isn't the uber weapon people make it out to be. As long as it's not a host uzi, it's not even really all that bad. So I'm kind of worried about if we keep the rifle the same, it's going to become a super gun. Because less lag only helps people snipe, so we may see more snap shot sniping. Also, there are already so many special things you can do with a rifle that you can't do with an uzi, like sniping bombs from far away. If anything, we need to differentiate the weapons better.

The easiest solution in my opinion is actually to make the rifle autofire better, but make sniping a bit less quick. Not a serious nerf, but just impose a delay on the sniping.

Now I can see the argument for just having one gun, but we're not doing that, so we now have to make them balanced. That's probably going to mean toning down the rifle a bit. It doesn't need huge nerfs, but it should be brought down a little, since it's by far the most versatile weapon.

Really the question becomes, if we leave the rifle as is, what is the uzi's role? What can the uzi do well that the rifle can't?

[Spekkio]

The easiest solution in my opinion is actually to make the rifle autofire better, but make sniping a bit less quick. Not a serious nerf, but just impose a delay on the sniping.

If you do this, then why have the uzi at all?

Goes back to the 1 gun argument, as you pointed out.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with the rifle as is. If quick-sniping were that big of a thing where all the experienced players were doing it effectively, I could see the call for a nerf. As it is, the only time where this most often results in a kill on me is if they see me hacking a terminal, and there's a delay in trying to get off it. The other times are usually luck or an extremely skillful shot, and I'm willing to just tip my hat to the latter.

Really the question becomes, if we leave the rifle as is, what is the uzi's role? What can the uzi do well that the rifle can't?

Fight spies at medium/close range. It has 2.5x the ROF and magazine capacity and does ~75% as much damage from its optimal range. Its full auto damage falls off a little more quickly than the rifle's, which makes sense since the rifle is specialized for longer range combat.

Also, there are already so many special things you can do with a rifle that you can't do with an uzi, like sniping bombs from far away.

The uzi is accurate enough to do this full-auto.

[Westfall]

Funny how the "footsteps>hbs" thread made it back around to Rifle, Uzi, and Shotgun.

@Invisible: The uzi can unload a great deal of bullets into you from close to med range. Nothing would need to be changed aside from clip-size and no screen flash.

[Farley4Fan]

This is really off topic.  I may even make a new thread just to discuss the ROF and such of the assault rifle.

[Westfall]

Why when the guns don't really need to be discussed....again

[Test-Subject]

Why when the guns don't really need to be discussed....again

Yeah