A return on DA

[Spekkio]

What he said.

Nothing exemplifies this more than Orphanage, which seems to be the #1 map these days for some god awful reason.

[frvge]

You were gone for over a year.

Objectives shut down for 14 sec, depending on the map.
I think you are overestimating the Spies' strength. Their speed can't help them all the time, because a bullet is even faster. So it only depends on level design. Also, most level designs have a start-up phase for Spies, to give Mercs time to place some mines.

[Spekkio]

You were gone for over a year.

Objectives shut down for 14 sec, depending on the map.

VERY few maps have a 14 sec down time for objectives. Additionally, the only passive defense you really have to worry about is lasers, which can be chaffed. Motion sensors usually don't lock stuff and you can run under cams pretty easily with a little practice.

I think you are overestimating the Spies' strength. Their speed can't help them all the time, because a bullet is even faster. So it only depends on level design. Also, most level designs have a start-up phase for Spies, to give Mercs time to place some mines.

What levels might these be? Are you referring to how spies start outside for Orphanage? That's moot because the mercs start upstairs. The hack in Polar? Again moot because one of the mercs starts on a balcony completely opposite the stairwell. The hacks in missile? Again moot because the mercs have quite a bit of distance to get to sector 1.

[frvge]

When I am talking CT:
Clubhouse (getting down takes 8-10 secs), Orphanage, Missile Strike, Station, Bank (to an extent), Warehouse, Factory, Aquarius (fastest time to Greek is around 10 secs), etc. Basically all maps.

[Spekkio]

When I am talking CT:
Clubhouse (getting down takes 8-10 secs), Orphanage, Missile Strike, Station, Bank (to an extent), Warehouse, Factory, Aquarius (fastest time to Greek is around 10 secs), etc. Basically all maps.

Are you able to set up 3 mines + 3 spy traps in 10 seconds? I sure as hell can't.

Also, look at any of the maps people considered to be balanced. In every single one of them you can do what tin is talking about.

[Westfall]

I actually throw down 3 mines in greek...go to tech and chuck a nade up top and 8/10 times kill some1 up there.

[frvge]

Work on your speed then Spekkio :p I can cover Greek in 6 seconds (place 2 mines and close doors), then walk to Tech. When I feel like it, I plant another mine.

[Spekkio]

I actually throw down 3 mines in greek...go to tech and chuck a nade up top and 8/10 times kill some1 up there.

Then they're not rushing.

Work on your speed then Spekkio :p I can cover Greek in 6 seconds (place 2 mines and close doors), then walk to Tech. When I feel like it, I plant another mine.

And what if they don't go tech first?

[Tinweasele]

guys its not a matter of whether or not a merc CAN go fast or not, we all know the pros can go really fsking fast.  here is the test, is the game MUCH harder for the spies if they sit in spawn for the first 30-45 seconds of the game?  ( besides grenading spawn -_-)  if the answer is yes then the spies are being forced to move fast.  Ill give you a hint, every single level will play out harder, because you have a super entrenched foe and no way to get past his defences in a stealthy manner.

[scope2005]

An interesting post Test, but I cant say I agree with all of the points you have made.

The only worthwhile "improvements" brought by DA were graphical IMO as it was quite pretty.

There were only a few plus points to game play however:

* 3 man teams

* Focusable Flashlight

* Spy movement - I didnt like the speed so much, it was just the fact movement was more fluid. I.E you dont move really slow when climbing or moving on pipes which tbh sucked a lot in CT. I agree with skull though - they moved at a pace akin to a hypo-kid high on blue smarties, but If it was slowed down to a SCCT pace whilst retaining the speed when climbing/mantling and keeping escape moves - I'd have been much happier with it.

Negative points are obvious, we all know those too well and they far outweigh the good.

I'm sure the few good parts from DA have at least been considered for implementation after the initial clone of SCCT, at least the flashlight anyhow :D

[frvge]

I say no. I've put up most of my defenses and have taking a defensive stance within 12-15 seconds. As soon as I have an idea where the first strike will be, I'll focus on that part. Get a few games going, the human memory loses detail after some months.

[InvisibleMan999]

4.  passive security does not have any long lasting effects.  you set off an alarm? so what, you cant hack anything for a few seconds, you are still faster than the mercs so its just a matter of kiting them around until you can get back to the room and try again.  Now if passive defences actived buffs of some sort to the mercs, or activated more active tracking defences you would see a much higher emphasis on stealth.

That's an interesting idea.

What if we made it so that setting off an alert made the mercs get a speed boost for the duration of the alert, so they could better chase spies?

That'd really discourage the zero stealth rush hack.

[Spekkio]

I say no. I've put up most of my defenses and have taking a defensive stance within 12-15 seconds. As soon as I have an idea where the first strike will be, I'll focus on that part. Get a few games going, the human memory loses detail after some months.

Dude, there is no fucking way you have 3 mines up in 15 seconds. It takes 3 seconds as it is to place a mine, and then you have to walk to the next spot. Unless you put all 3 mines up in the same goddamn spot, and that spot is your spawn point, it's going to take you about a minute to set up all your defenses. Add more time if you're also placing spy traps.

Tin's point is that if you sit in spawn as spy and wait for the mercs to set up rather than rushing in before they get everything down, the game is a lot harder. He's right about that, and no amount of time off from the game changes it.

[Spekkio]

4.  passive security does not have any long lasting effects.  you set off an alarm? so what, you cant hack anything for a few seconds, you are still faster than the mercs so its just a matter of kiting them around until you can get back to the room and try again.  Now if passive defences actived buffs of some sort to the mercs, or activated more active tracking defences you would see a much higher emphasis on stealth.

That's an interesting idea.

What if we made it so that setting off an alert made the mercs get a speed boost for the duration of the alert, so they could better chase spies?

That'd really discourage the zero stealth rush hack.

It is an interesting idea, except for a couple of things:
1. The way most of the maps are now, there just isn't that much passive security around to begin with.
2. If we add more passive security, stopping to shoot it all out would be very problematic for the spies.

Another problem I think that has to do with the running around is spy insta-healing each other and self-regen. Rarely do you need to trek back to a healthpack. It gives you a "get out of jail free" from getting shot up by a merc.

[frvge]

Healing should indeed take longer.