merc confusion gadget

[Gawain]

You are correct that we don't know the impact. I'm kind of tired of obvious things being stated as well as being repeated. It has to be tested before implemented.

it makes no sense to implement something complicated whith tremendous programming effort when there's so much other more simple but yet important stuff to fix.

[Farley4Fan]

Wow Gawain. 

1.  Why do you suggest making alternate game modes (and things like the hack glove) when there is so much more work to be done then?

2.  Frvge already said it would be possible.  Stop exaggerating how ZOMG difficult it would be to program it when you have no idea and you ignore the posts from the devs about it.

3.  Don't ever post a new idea then if you think there are more important ground work things to be discussed.  Funny that this is your topic and you say that it isn't time for new ideas and rather the framework.  I for one, make new ideas because I think it's better to discuss them early on in the developing phase.  Instead of throwing together ideas at the last minute and seeing if they will work with minimal testing.

4.  The idea is not that complicated.  In fact, they already have the spy bullet and spy running animation completed (I've only seen the first attempt at that however).  The spy bullet acts as the projector, and the spy hologram runs, or performs the animations that you yourself recording prior to the game.  OR, you could tell it what to do on the fly:  Run, crouch, walk slowly, roll, jump etc...

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Yeah, pretty easy stuff for a serious programmer, afaik.
The only prob could be with the distortion when the hologram would be hit, or when the player took controll of the hologram.
Hey, why not let players decide if they want to go manual on the hologram or not??

[Vega]

2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:

Considering my post is directed towards Papa's original idea of "remote controlled spy images," I would think you have zero say in the matter.  Here's the quote my argument was based on;

what if you could remote control it?

All I did was quote you for saying something that I thought the answer was obvious; people are denying ideas because the ideas proposed simply suck.  So, uh, no, how about you "yet again" read my post?  My point is for people to stop suggesting ideas without thinking it through. 

Who ever said it needs obstacle evasion? If the maps are as clean as in CT, you should be able to make use of it by having it move in a straight line.

Another reason why this is not a believable image.  A straight running spy, especially in the presence of a merc, isn't very believable.

maybe the merc would chase it around 20 feet until he realizes that the spy isn't real.

Again, you're going to have a difficult time making a believable, natural looking spy that runs around.  Frvge said it himself that images with hit detection is not worth the team's time.

And all we are doing now is brainstorming because as a community we can get more opinions and suggestions rather than 1 person making set-in-stone suggestions.  If a community contributes you will end up with an idea that is better than the one you thought up in the first place.  Unless you have an idea that everyone agrees upon, which doesn't happen very often.

Yeah, I most certainly, but a nice bit of this community "agrees" on bad ideas, simple as that.  This even includes you, as I usually strongly disagree with your suggestions for a couple of reasons:
1.  This one quote a while back shows how you want to change CT at its core.

I'd rather not play a game like CT where it seems like there were no battles on the map within 12 minutes of hunting and killing, that's completely retarded.

Considering the objective of this team is to make PS as close as possible to CT, I find it ironic that you're even here.
2.  You bring new gameplay elements/mechanics into the game that change CT drastically.  I feel this is basically because of point #1.
3.  You defend these ideas with an increasingly skewed knowledge on how CT fundamentally works. 

I've already explained my reasons for why the holopod isn't as great as an escape tool as you think.  For some reason you still think this spy image is going to be very believable, but I don't think it will.  You bring up the Polar Base example which I find strengthens my ideas much more than yours.  The Polar Base bomb area has an enormous amount of poles, rails, and other objects that the image would need hit detection to even look somewhat believable.  The bomb area is so confined that without hit detection, the image would be hitting objects left and right, and running off into thin air on the upper bomb area.  Yes, you can put this image on the ground to the outside of the bomb area, so it won't hit anything.  I still find it worthless, having to set that up on a level that is especially open is even more unrealistic.

Now, westfall ;)

For the record, I wouldn't set up a hologram to protect me in the same room I am hacking. That was a very n00b scenario.

Hmmm westfall you're missing my point.  The idea was that your partner set up the remote-controlled hologram, because almost everyone's idea for hologram here is "it can be used for distraction!"  Remember, that scenario I gave was for the "remote-controlled" idea.

"OMG, YOU CAN SEND THE IMAGE TO DISTRACT?!?!?!?" OMG, you can only shoot snares to distract? EVERY GADGET IS A TYPE OF DISTRACTION.

Sure, but snares don't only distract but mask your movement.  Totally different scenario and far more effective than this holopod.  Not everyone likes snares because they can be difficult and when not used properly, worthless.

There are ideas being thrown out at random though, and shouldn't be. The only real huge flaw with this, even though not really, is that the hologram wouldn't be seen in MT vision, which is a dead giveaway if the merc doesn't think to turn it on right away. With good ideas there have to be flaws in order to balance out, so it not being tracked on MT makes it that much more workable as a gadget.

I thought of this too, and I find it a huge deal.  You know as well as I do it takes a split second to put on MT, and many walk around in MT for the majority of the game.  I find MT completely owns this spy image idea in every way possible.  It's nullified to the extent of overkill. 

EDIT; Added in one thing.

[Westfall]

MT is a big deal with the holo pod because it wouldn't go off. It is quick to turn on, yet with the fix it may not go off as easily as it does in CT. Its the giveaway of the hologram, which is good because the gadget should have a weakness, ya know?

Imagine shooting the hologram 3 separate times in a room where you are and a merc enters. This is another flaw I feel because its spamming. As funny as it would be to have 5 spies in one room, there should definitely be a limit to how many can be placed at once and how long they should last for. I think they should last forever, but only 2 can be placed at a time. Therefore you need the "delete last placed" option in the menu (kind of like mines now).

Vega....PS is based off of the ideas based on and around SvM.....not DA, CT, or PT. They are only there for suggestions for balancing purposes. This is a completely different game on a completely different engine. This is NOT "CT 2: T3h Gr34t3st Com3b4ck".

The possibilities to implement this gadget are there. Yes, it will be tough and may not even work. I would obviously hope that other things are being tended to than the almighty holo pod. Its just a new idea that has potential to either be great or suck donkey. I'm still a nay sayer when it comes to the remote control though.

[Farley4Fan]

^ basically everything I was going to say. 

I straight running spy wouldn't JUST RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE.  It would zig zag a bit, but still keep the general direction.  This is why I suggested you could override the recording and just set it to an autopilot mode where you can tell it to roll, crouch, jump etc... but it still runs in a generally straight line. This would make it believable.  And I never ever said anything about the holopod having hit detection for mercs.  The community as a whole doesn't disagree with this idea like you say they do.  In fact, I have people backing me right now with this idea.  I don't want to change the core gameplay.  I just want to add to it.  The game needs more variety.  Whether this gadget would turn out to be good or bad NOBODY can tell, it needs testing, along with some of the other ideas that the community has come up with.  Everything needs testing, because something could be great and none of us would know it until we see it or play it.

[Gawain]

omg papa stop it. didn't you get a clue that this actually is a bad idea when even i who started this topic changed my mind about it? it makes absolutely no sense arguing about something with you as you simply won't change your mind no matter how good the counter arguments are.

i'm kinda worried that a lot of people here didn't get the the mission of this mod.
ct is arguably the best svm so we should build on it's core. it's even the best with it's many many flaws which we should cure first and see how it turns out before thinking about implementing new mechanics.

[Westfall]

omg papa stop it. didn't you get a clue that this actually is a bad idea when even i who started this topic changed my mind about it? it makes absolutely no sense arguing about something with you as you simply won't change your mind no matter how good the counter arguments are.

i'm kinda worried that a lot of people here didn't get the the mission of this mod.
ct is arguably the best svm so we should build on it's core. it's even the best with it's many many flaws which we should cure first and see how it turns out before thinking about implementing new mechanics.

Here's the thing: why should someone change their mind about something when the counter arguments don't exist? Make me change my mind Gaiwan. If its such a big deal you have to convince me why this gadget won't be good for the game. So far, no one has done that.....not even remotely close. No one has give a good justification of why this gadget would be bad for PS, the gameplay in PS, and bad for SvM. Until then, I'm going to continue to actually try and get this gadget in there because of how unique it is compared to the other gadgets. And just because you changed your mind doesn't make the idea bad.

You don't get the mission of this mod. It is not a fixed CT. It is PS....on a different engine. This means the game play will be rather different. The only thing we can comparably use from CT is that it was a SvM styled game. We've already discussed many fixes for beneficial purposes, but new things need to be added in order to make this game original. No, a holo pod doesn't make the game original, but all of the tweaks and possibilities for new ideas do.

[Vega]

MT is a big deal with the holo pod because it wouldn't go off. It is quick to turn on, yet with the fix it may not go off as easily as it does in CT. Its the giveaway of the hologram, which is good because the gadget should have a weakness, ya know?

Of course it needs a weakness, but MT rules this thing out too easily.  Not only that, but it seems to encourage MT whoring.  I don't know how MT is going to be changed for PS, but if I remember correctly, it wasn't going to get nerfed too much.

Vega....PS is based off of the ideas based on and around SvM.....not DA, CT, or PT. They are only there for suggestions for balancing purposes. This is a completely different game on a completely different engine. This is NOT "CT 2: T3h Gr34t3st Com3b4ck".

From what has been stated multiple times, I was under the impression that we are going to replicate CT at its core.  This isn't CT, but this is as close as possible.  Even if what you say is true, neither of us know the engine so neither of us can be an educated guess on how this will affect gameplay.  But since we're making this as close as possible to CT, it makes sense to use CT as a model to base situations from.

I straight running spy wouldn't JUST RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE.  It would zig zag a bit, but still keep the general direction.  This is why I suggested you could override the recording and just set it to an autopilot mode where you can tell it to roll, crouch, jump etc... but it still runs in a generally straight line. This would make it believable.  And I never ever said anything about the holopod having hit detection for mercs

Seems a lot like a distinct pattern that will be noticeable after this gadget is used for the first couple of weeks.  People will recognize this pattern and grow accustomed to it, rendering this gadget more useful vs. inexperienced noobs.  All you have going for this gadget is "make your own patterns!" which I still think is a waste of time and and too much work for a single gadget.  With your autopilot feature, it once again needs to have hit detection so it doesn't look stupid.  When I say hit detection, I'm referring to the image being capable of knowing whether it just ran into an object or not, such as a wall or box.  Without hit detection, this image has very limited uses.  But as for hit detection with bullets, images should most certainly flicker/disappear/distort when hit by a bullet.  Something has to be noticeable because not knowing if you hit a spy or not in CT is a huge annoyance. 

The community as a whole doesn't disagree with this idea like you say they do.  In fact, I have people backing me right now with this idea.

That's not what I said.  I said they agree on shitty ideas.  Such as the holopod. 

The game needs more variety.  Whether this gadget would turn out to be good or bad NOBODY can tell, it needs testing, along with some of the other ideas that the community has come up with.  Everything needs testing, because something could be great and none of us would know it until we see it or play it.

Again, I find the holopod unworthy and a waste of time for testing. My personal opinion, but you're pretty much stating the obvious. 

[Farley4Fan]

Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

[Ion.67]

Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

How did you become accustomed to the snare? I mean, it pings the reticle like a normal spy, but you still ignore it? WOW, AMAZING.

[InvisibleMan999]

Remote control is the only thing that's doable and that'd have huge drawbacks. That would mean basically it'd be like using camnet, only instead of a camera you're controlling a holospy who can run around. Probably you'd have to stay within a set radius of the holopod, similar to the DA drone where you just die when you pop out of the radius.

Of course, this would create some balance ripples. Because actually it'd suck as a distraction, if it makes no noise, no merc will believe it. But it would be nice for scouting around corners and such. So it's more of a recon pod than a holopod. Also it would be really crazy if it could trip lasers and mines, since you could basically send in a suicide runner and then follow up with the real spy.

The whole "drawing a path on the map" and preprgrammed shit just isn't going to work. It's going to iether require AI for obstacle avoidance and pathing, or it's going to be walking through walls and be instantly recognizable by the merc as being something false. How often are you going to have the perfect timing that it requires to set up this hologram so it runs down a corridor and meets the following criteria:

-The merc has to notice it.
-The merc has to fail to notice it's not making noise.
-The merc has to not see it walk through walls.

And all this in one animation of the holospy? It just isn't going to happen.

About all this might be useful for is a pure aggro tool where you drop like 2 at once or something so there's spies everywhere, combined with alarm snares of course. As a distraction tool, this thing will suck ass.

[Vega]

Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

So Papa, tell me, how are we going to get this "unique pattern?"  Tell me.  Exclude "recording your own moves" for the time being.  What else can be done?  Can the image run through walls/objects?  If so, that's a pretty limited image considering how many objects are in a map.  To balance this, an image must give away some detail of it's nature, such as the image distorting when shot or something of the like.  That alone will be a dead give away as well.

Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

I had thought of this when I originally heard about the hologram's actions, but this isn't to say a merc isn't going to "test shot" a hologram.  One shot will do the trick.

[Cyntrox]

Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

I had thought of this when I originally heard about the hologram's actions, but this isn't to say a merc isn't going to "test shot" a hologram.  One shot will do the trick.

One shot is enough for a good spy to slip past on the other side of the room.