merc confusion gadget

[Vega]

One shot is enough for a good spy to slip past on the other side of the room.

True, but again, I find this very limited and especially since you mention "the other side of the room."  A merc with an uzi is going to be near you in order for his weapon to be effective.  A "good spy" is pretty generic in this regard, that term usually refers to playing habits or standard tactics.  I don't see how a "good spy" would be so much better in this situation.  Does he have time to place this hologram?  Where is the camnet or patrolling mercs that spoil his position?  What if we have a "good merc" that snipes you in one shot?

[Farley4Fan]

Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

How did you become accustomed to the snare? I mean, it pings the reticle like a normal spy, but you still ignore it? WOW, AMAZING.

To compare the effects of the alarm snare and the holopod is completely moronic.  They have completely different uses.  You become accustomed to alarm snares because they are totally obvious.  You would not become accustomed to holopods because they aren't obvious.  Imagine an alarm snare that emits sounds every 5-10 seconds and they are audible.  ONLY THEN can you compare alarm snare and holopod.  Get real man.

Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

So Papa, tell me, how are we going to get this "unique pattern?"  Tell me.  Exclude "recording your own moves" for the time being.  What else can be done?  Can the image run through walls/objects?  If so, that's a pretty limited image considering how many objects are in a map.  To balance this, an image must give away some detail of it's nature, such as the image distorting when shot or something of the like.  That alone will be a dead give away as well.

Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

I had thought of this when I originally heard about the hologram's actions, but this isn't to say a merc isn't going to "test shot" a hologram.  One shot will do the trick.

Actually, I take back my "unique" statement.  They won't be unique at all.  In fact, they will be identical to spy movement.  THe same.  No special animations that you could see to tell the difference between them.  You could set the holopod to autopilot mode.  It goes basically in a straight line but it has some minor curves like a real player would have.  From the autopilot mode you can give it a little set of commands:  Roll, crouch, jump, get out ss...  that way you could convince the merc even further that it is real.  A nifty way you could use this is have it slowly walk into shadows, but time it so that the merc sees it.  The hologram will walk through the walls but the merc won't know it.  He'll just think that it is hiding in that dark area that he saw the "spy" go into.  A way to take its use a step further would be to give spies the ability to turn it off and on.  You could make little flickers of spy images appear and the merc will see them. 

[Vega]

Actually, I take back my "unique" statement.  They won't be unique at all.  In fact, they will be identical to spy movement.  THe same.  No special animations that you could see to tell the difference between them.  You could set the holopod to autopilot mode.  It goes basically in a straight line but it has some minor curves like a real player would have.  From the autopilot mode you can give it a little set of commands:  Roll, crouch, jump, get out ss...  that way you could convince the merc even further that it is real.  A nifty way you could use this is have it slowly walk into shadows, but time it so that the merc sees it.  The hologram will walk through the walls but the merc won't know it.  He'll just think that it is hiding in that dark area that he saw the "spy" go into.  A way to take its use a step further would be to give spies the ability to turn it off and on.  You could make little flickers of spy images appear and the merc will see them. 

No, when I say unique, I'm referring to the unique pattern each human-player exhibits when controlling a spy.  Holograms won't have this unless they are controlled by a player (horrible idea) or by making the image heavily animated (waste of time IMO).  If neither of those requirements are met, this image won't be believable after a person has seen it the first week or so of gameplay.  It's going to drastically lose it's value.

The Auto-pilot idea seems very unfit for CT; having a separate menu pop-up for the player sounds disastrous.  I'll use your examples; roll, pull out SS, jump, crouch.  Wait...are you shitting me?  Can you please picture how ridiculous this would be to pull off?  Pull out SS...wait, this hologram can't taze.  Roll...into that box/wall and magically go through.  Jump...because this hologram has superior pathfinding.  Crouch...the only one that is somewhat normal.  So we have a non-tazing, disappearing, jumping spy who occasionally crouches for believability.  Oh, and he has non-clipping (goes through walls).  You're telling me the mercenary won't notice this?  This image shouldn't logically set off MT either, another downfall to this idea.  Being able to turn this on and off is bad for balance, nothing in SvM is like that besides a cam.  Besides, that's to serve as a recon tool only after the gas has already been exhausted.

You can even go the whole nine yards and give this image commands like "turn left, turn right, roll left, roll right" but this isn't an MMORPG where I use a "pet" to aggro hostile mercenaries.

[Farley4Fan]

k, wtf are you talking about Vega?  Not all animations or recordings will be the same, so there is the "uniqueness" for ya.  You can't tell me to throw out the idea that would help exhibit unique holograms and then ask me how we will make it so they are unique. 

And you made me lol, to be honest.  Those little things you tell it to do would just be there to make the hologram more believable.  Who would tell the hologram to roll when it's going toward a crate?  You jump to conclusions way to quickly, with no stops in between.  Atleast stop and think about how the player would use them.  Obviously the player wouldn't tell it to go toward a crate, first of all. (haha now you are underestimating spies and overestimating mercs, when will this end  :D)  The player would tell it to pull out its gun to maybe make it look like the spy is using hbs.  Haven't you ever came behind a spy with his gun pulled out? 

And didn't you ever think about making the hologram not move?  If you put a hologram in a common spot the merc is going to think it's real.  He could even waste grenade on it, that's a good use.  Getting the merc to go into sniper mode to kill the hologram is another second or two for you to move.  You could use the thing for traps.  But hey, you blew off that point and forgot about it.  Put the holo in a doorway, wait behind the doorway, wait for the merc to come around the corner and charge it, the merc would hit the wall, and you get an easy grab or sticky cam.

And you completely ignored my idea about making a hologram walk into a dark area.  The merc is going to search the area and find nothing because the hologram went through the wall.  That would give you time to move.  What about making the hologram turn off and on?  Oh, you ignored that too.  Who is going to see a convincing hologram and say "oh damn I better turn on Motion to make sure that he isn't a just a hologram so I don't waste my ammo on him!"  No one will do that.  They are going to try to pump the thing full of lead until they realize they aren't hitting anything.  Or if they think they missed every shot they could continue to chase it buying you even more time.

Think outside the box Vega, because you are locked in it as of now.

[InvisibleMan999]

About the only useful hologram I can think of would be a fake hacking holo. That is, it stands in front of a terminal and hacks, producing a hacking message, and a false hack countdown. When the countdown reaches 0, the holo disappears. But it can get mercs to waste ammo and such running of there.

Aside from that, we can forget about holospies that run around and all that crap. CT maps aren't wide open spaces. They've got boxes and signs, and all manner of crap in the way. The fact that the spy can walk through objects will be very obvious. As is the fact that it's running and not making a sound.

[Farley4Fan]

1.  You don't have to make the spy run.  Even if you do you could use an alarm snare to produce the "sound" the holo makes.

2. It's all about placement.  No one is going to place a holo so it runs right through "a sign or any matter of crap".  Keep in mind this isn't CT and maps will be bigger/darker (so I hear).

3. CT maps have plenty of spaces where they are open.  They don't have to be atrium size either.

4. How can you think that would be the only use for it?  Try flashing the image of a spy near a merc.  He'll check it out.  I'm talking about turning it on/off.  Think about sending it into the shadows, that would make the merc check the shadows and area thoroughly.  Think about deploying one and attacking a merc aggro style.  Think about using one for a trap.  Think about deploying one and using it to escape.  There are plenty of uses for it.

[InvisibleMan999]

You're underestimating players' ability to adapt. Once you add this to the game, people will be actively looking for holospies. IF you see a spy pop out of nowhere without walking there, then you're pretty much sure it's a holospy, unless the game is lagging horribly.

I just can't see this gadget actually fooling anyone besides a total newbie.

[Westfall]

You're underestimating players' ability to adapt. Once you add this to the game, people will be actively looking for holospies. IF you see a spy pop out of nowhere without walking there, then you're pretty much sure it's a holospy, unless the game is lagging horribly.

I just can't see this gadget actually fooling anyone besides a total newbie.

I put $$ on it that a n00b could fool u personally with it.

A hacking spy holopod would be unfair for one and just incorrect. Can you make a hologram do something as physical as create a fake hack on the mercs screen with a countdown? Nice thought, but thats not the only thing that a hologram would be good for.

[Spekkio]

About the only useful hologram I can think of would be a fake hacking holo. That is, it stands in front of a terminal and hacks, producing a hacking message, and a false hack countdown. When the countdown reaches 0, the holo disappears. But it can get mercs to waste ammo and such running of there.

You forgot one problem with that: to use a hologram in that matter would require that the spy is nearby, so it's not like the mercs are going to turn around and go away once they realize a fake is hacking it.

On top of that, if you throw a hologram at an objective with enough time for it to get to 0 before a merc comes, wouldn't it be better to just hack it yourself???

[Westfall]

About the only useful hologram I can think of would be a fake hacking holo. That is, it stands in front of a terminal and hacks, producing a hacking message, and a false hack countdown. When the countdown reaches 0, the holo disappears. But it can get mercs to waste ammo and such running of there.

You forgot one problem with that: to use a hologram in that matter would require that the spy is nearby, so it's not like the mercs are going to turn around and go away once they realize a fake is hacking it.

Why would it require the spy was nearby. I could shoot the thing and drop a floor. aaaaaaaaand im gone...;)

[Farley4Fan]

You're underestimating players' ability to adapt. Once you add this to the game, people will be actively looking for holospies. IF you see a spy pop out of nowhere without walking there, then you're pretty much sure it's a holospy, unless the game is lagging horribly.

I just can't see this gadget actually fooling anyone besides a total newbie.

Can you tell me the difference between a spy and a spy?  That's basically what this is.  Holo looks exactly like a spy.  How would this not fool anyone?  You seem to think that everyone has these special visions in which they can physically tell the difference between a hologram and a spy.  No one does.  And to make its movements and actions believable it would have to be cleverly placed by the spy.  No smart spy is going to make it appear out of nowhere, or go into a wall, or right towards a merc.

[AgentX_003]

one thing ill remind you guys of , is we are all gunna be noobs when this comes out soo get your head out of your asses , cause everything is redesigned from scratch, we are all not gunna know all the maps.

In a weeks time i doubt it , in a couple of months maybe every nick and cranny for 2 maps


AND ITS A NEW ENGINE SO THEREFORE ITS GUNNA BE SIMILAR TO CT BUT WITH A DIFFERENT FEEL SO STOP COMPARING, you kids drive me insane

[Ion.67]

Agent, this mod is based off of CT, so we have every right and intention of comparing them.

[Vega]

k, wtf are you talking about Vega?  Not all animations or recordings will be the same, so there is the "uniqueness" for ya.  You can't tell me to throw out the idea that would help exhibit unique holograms and then ask me how we will make it so they are unique.

Alright, for the last time, this "uniqueness" will come with a lot of work.  Get that through your head.  If you're going to argue my point, which is how I find it being a waste of time, at least do it properly.  Sure I can tell you to throw out the "recording moves" idea, again, I find this a waste of time.  There is simplicity to CT that draws in noobs, and complexity to keep people sucked in.  Your POS idea defies this common theme CT has. 

When are you going to "record" your holograms moves?  During game?  Before game?  In your account setup?  All three options are horrible.  This is a huge waste of time during game.  This is a huge waste of time for players before the game.  Account setup shouldn't involve tasks like these, and I'm curious at how much work it will require.  Specifically, does it start a single-player game up in a pre-rendered room/map where you click "record" and then "stop" when you're done doing your move?  Do you hit "record" and it records the next 5 seconds of animation?  Do you have multiple recordings to choose from in-game.  Sounds overly complex for a simple game interface.  I find these ideas a waste of time.  No other gadget in CT requires crap like this to be done.  It's as if you're asking a gadget to be calibrated as you do a joystick.  Gadgets come pre-calibrated, holopod does not.  Ditch the holopod.

And you made me lol, to be honest.  Those little things you tell it to do would just be there to make the hologram more believable.  Who would tell the hologram to roll when it's going toward a crate?  You jump to conclusions way to quickly, with no stops in between.  Atleast stop and think about how the player would use them.  Obviously the player wouldn't tell it to go toward a crate, first of all. (haha now you are underestimating spies and overestimating mercs, when will this end  :D)  The player would tell it to pull out its gun to maybe make it look like the spy is using hbs.  Haven't you ever came behind a spy with his gun pulled out?

Glad I made you laugh out loud, that was idea when describing your comical holopod idea.  This is great, instead of an "auto-pilot" feature, you're leaning towards a alteration of the player-controlled hologram idea.  Now, I know you're going to get your panties in a bunch when you read that last sentence, but hear me out.  You made a great contradiction with the effectiveness of this gadget, with these two quotes alone;

Who would tell the hologram to roll when it's going toward a crate?

A merc knows you are at a position, and you put one of these babies down and have him go in a random direction.

If you're going to go through the hassle and tell your image when to roll, jump, crouch, etc. then I ask you; what the hell are you currently doing?  Clearly your attention is going to be set on your image, so how are you going to make your great escape?  The chances of it rolling/running through a crate will be high if you're not paying attention to it.  How are you going to use this amazing gadget as a means of escape if your telling it when to roll when you're not able to see it?  Oh yeah, I'm going to be "distracted" by this non-threatening image and you'll get away scot-free, right?  God damn, this is such a shitty gadget in so many situations that I'm tempted to make entire thread bashing your skewed sense of perception.

And didn't you ever think about making the hologram not move?  If you put a hologram in a common spot the merc is going to think it's real.  He could even waste grenade on it, that's a good use.  Getting the merc to go into sniper mode to kill the hologram is another second or two for you to move.  You could use the thing for traps.  But hey, you blew off that point and forgot about it.  Put the holo in a doorway, wait behind the doorway, wait for the merc to come around the corner and charge it, the merc would hit the wall, and you get an easy grab or sticky cam.

Hahaha um, I figured you wouldn't be that thick to think of this as a viable reason for the hologram.  There are so few times this would work, not to mention it looking hilarious to see a spy just standing in a door way.  I wouldn't charge him like an idiot, a tactic you seem to be accustomed with -- I would shoot him in the head.  "OH BUT YOU WASTED TIME TO SHOOT THE IMAGE AND I WAS BEHIND YOU THE WHOLE TIME."  Can you please stop with the noob scenarios? 

And you completely ignored my idea about making a hologram walk into a dark area.  The merc is going to search the area and find nothing because the hologram went through the wall.  That would give you time to move.

Walk into a dark area?  It's horse shit, that's why.  Very situational and pointless and you barely gain anything from it.  You're basically playing the "baiting game" as you do with a cam, however a cam knocks out a merc for a total of 8-10 seconds if successful.  I've already thought of the greatest situations this hologram would benefit from, but there is no point to explaining them all, I still simply think it sucks too much to be worthy of a gadget. 

What about making the hologram turn off and on?  Oh, you ignored that too.

You got a little excited with this post, didn't you?  Don't get ahead of yourself:

Being able to turn this on and off is bad for balance, nothing in SvM is like that besides a cam.  Besides, that's to serve as a recon tool only after the gas has already been exhausted.

Who is going to see a convincing hologram and say "oh damn I better turn on Motion to make sure that he isn't a just a hologram so I don't waste my ammo on him!"  No one will do that.  They are going to try to pump the thing full of lead until they realize they aren't hitting anything.  Or if they think they missed every shot they could continue to chase it buying you even more time.

Hahahahaa oh god, your experience on the PC is so limited it's not even funny.  This is OK to say since this game is made for the PC.  I don't know if you were aware about this, playing on xbox and all, but many people whore MT and or flip visions very often.  Your point is very mute and barely worth my time. 

Think outside the box Vega, because you are locked in it as of now.

Funny enough you tell me to look outside the box when you don't even understand my post.  Guess it's typical coming from stubborn, misinformed, nescient Papa Skull.  Better put those training wheels back on, Papa, you're still learning.
 

[Farley4Fan]

Judging by all of the questions you asked me it has brought me to a conclusion.  You are misinformed and you haven't read all posts.  Will it do this?  Will it do that?  How about you think about it and give us a suggestion omnicsient one!  This idea isn't set in stone, it's better to get all ideas out and pick out the ones that might not work and work on the ones that could. 

Keep in mind, (I thought agent screaming it would be enough) that THIS IS NOT CT.  No one is to know what will happen with the game as of now.  MT is being nerfed, changed, implemented properly whatever you want to call it.  This is going to decrease the amount of MT whores we have going around.  Flipping visions is common on all versions but won't matter because if a hologram doesn't show up on EMF it doesn't mean it isn't real.  BUT, since your head is still stuck back in the CT days you can only see possibilities and scenarios happening in CT.  THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX VEGA, ffs.  CT is the box, get out of it.  Inspiration is coming from the past SvM games, not an exact copy.

You could record these in game, before the game, whenever.  And if you can't find time to make some custom recordings then set it to autopilot (goes in a generally straight line).  I've listed plenty of instances where this would be of use.  You still seem to be underestimating the intelligence of spies and overestimating the intelligence of mercs, which is funny because they go hand in hand, no distinct team will be smarter than the other by default.  :D

Tell me, what kind of spy will send a hologram straight into a box?  Only a mentally handicapped one.  And I'm not entirely positive, but I don't think there are many of those around.  ;)  I don't think there are any mercs who would be able to tell a holo from a real spy at first glance either, unless the spy who deployed it was idiotic.  It's a gadget you'll have to use wisely.  What's wrong with that?  If noobs don't want to use the gadget because it's overly complex, not that complex anyways, then they don't have to use it.  You have to get used to every gadget to learn how to use them effectively.  Quit making this one sound like they have to reprogram a computer to get this to work.

Oh, and it wasn't my idea.  This idea was around long before I even came to the forums.  I just support it, as do others.

If you come around a corner, and you see a spy with his back turned and maybe slowly moving, are you going to really try and shoot him in the head?  Why not just take the easier approach and charge the "spy"?  When a spy has his back turned and he is crouched, it's much easier to charge him than to try and pull a quick headshot.

And what is your say on how helpful this will be for aggro players?  Let me guess, it won't be useful right? lol  Don't forget that quick cams are going to be harder to pull off now, and that stealth is going to be a much much much more viable option than aggro.  There needs to be some more aggro capabilities.  What with tazer being boosted dramatically, darker maps, nerfed visions, boosted camo, etc... I've already explained this thoroughly.  I don't feel like explaining it again.  Aggro needs some boost.  This would help it a good amount.