Grappling Hook

[Spekkio]

I don't think any item or ability that changes your access to the map should be selectable. What I think could work is building grappling spots into the map, so that you can't just hop up into coop spots or whatever.

It doesn't change your access. It lets you get off of a pipe or ledge without damage, and get to co-op areas without using 2 people.

Being able to get somewhere that required 2 people with 1 = changing map access through gadgets.

[Kubanator]

Kubanator nice at stealing someone's idea and presenting it as your own...

We werent talking about coop option before. You should be able to get to places where you wouldnt get without partner. I see this hook as a gadget to move slowly and quietly but without losing health.
Every spy should have one, cause it gives you a choice. You can play fast but risk your health or move slowly but remain undetected. You should also be able to use camo while moving.

He presented it as some sort of a rope you shoot. I think of it as a rope you lower or throw up. Plus I thought up the co-op and 1 man co-op moves.

Haha, im glad someone noticed  ;).

anyhow like i said in my prev post i think itd be balanced IF:

1. It should be able to attach to anything apart from walls
2. It can be used to hang from pipes/ceiling/ledges or just or simply to climb
3. It should be a COMPULSORY ITEM
4. Spies should be able to use camo while using grapple
5. A spy could shoot a graple and come back to it later provided he hasnt died.
6. It could be used in coop points which can be accessed by a single spy (e.g clubhouse g1 u can coop to g2, but you can also get there without cooping, same with mono coop points, but NOT coop points which cannot be accessed by a single spy (eg aqua tech room)

1. It shouldn't be able to attach to ceiling either. Only overhead pipes and ledges whould be grapplable.
2. Not ceilings.
3. That would make co-op pointless. This gadgets purpose is that it allows you more access, for a slot.
4. Yes, but the rope should be visible, and assuming they are not moving fast or under rain.
5. The gagdet I'm talking about is not shot, but thrown, and would be picked up as soon as the spy finished climbing, or else the spy would just put ropes everywhere that his parner could use.
6. The point of this gadget is to allow more places to come from solo, as opposed to forcing them down the same paths.

Here's some i just thought of:
1. Spies should be able to turn on the rope, like they can on ladders
2. Spies shouldn't be able to jump off of it (they would need to reach top/bottom and unclip the rappel, this would make the weapon more balanced as it can be attached to practically anything, and would stop merc's getting jumped out of nowhere).
3. Only when the rappel is being fired should it make a sound (Not sure about this point, maybe it should be silent)

1. If by turn on you mean use, then no because when throwing the rope, the spy automatically goes on it.
2. Yes.
3. It's thrown.

Being able to get somewhere that required 2 people with 1 = changing map access through gadgets.

No, because you could already get there, you just needed 2 people. It doesn't change where you can go, it changes when you can go.

[MacBryce]

Being able to get somewhere that required 2 people with 1 = changing map access through gadgets.

No, because you could already get there, you just needed 2 people. It doesn't change where you can go, it changes when you can go.

I'm with Spekkio on this one. It definitely changes map access, and this design idea should therefore be explored with care. I'd say that it definitely needs a trade-off. Either way, it's not something to implement in PS 1.0, it's more of a 1.5 idea.

[Vega]

Kubanator, it does change map access.  It allows access to a place when you normally wouldn't be allowed to -- no partner present.  Coop spots are a balancing factor in itself, that should be obvious.  Focusing on "when allowed" does not refute "should allow."  Should a single player be allowed to get into a place that normally forces two players to work cooperatively in proximity?  No, that's not the way coop spots are meant to be designed.  They're meant to have disadvantages and advantages, a grappling hook kills of many of these disadvantages.  Frvge's statement of "if it takes 30-40 seconds to climb the coop spot then yes" is on the right track because he notices that in order to balance this out, it must have a severe drawback. 

[Spekkio]

Being able to get somewhere that required 2 people with 1 = changing map access through gadgets.

No, because you could already get there, you just needed 2 people. It doesn't change where you can go, it changes when you can go.

I'm with Spekkio on this one. It definitely changes map access, and this design idea should therefore be explored with care. I'd say that it definitely needs a trade-off. Either way, it's not something to implement in PS 1.0, it's more of a 1.5 idea.

The best way to go about this is to only have certain spots in the map where you can use the grappling hook, like horizontal pipes or areas to which you can attach a rope to rapel down. This can be used either through a selectable or not selectable system. The idea of a grappling hook that can be used anywhere in the map is poor.

[Westfall]

Being able to get somewhere that required 2 people with 1 = changing map access through gadgets.

No, because you could already get there, you just needed 2 people. It doesn't change where you can go, it changes when you can go.

I'm with Spekkio on this one. It definitely changes map access, and this design idea should therefore be explored with care. I'd say that it definitely needs a trade-off. Either way, it's not something to implement in PS 1.0, it's more of a 1.5 idea.

The best way to go about this is to only have certain spots in the map where you can use the grappling hook, like horizontal pipes or areas to which you can attach a rope to rapel down. This can be used either through a selectable or not selectable system. The idea of a grappling hook that can be used anywhere in the map is poor.

agreed. If there was a symbol that came up (kind of like when you're near a coop) that showed the accessible points of a grappling hook, it would work nicely. You shouldn't be able to access all the coop points. It is a coop for a reason. There could be separate vents placed that only allow for the grappling hook. Again, just a simple symbol to know you can access it would be nice.

Should you be able to shoot it? Should it be a gadget slot, or already with the spy? I do think this shouldn't wait until PS 1.5. Maps will need fixes with grappling hook options if you leave it out at release. 

[Spekkio]

Just to add another reason why you can't have a grappling hook usable anywhere: spies are already much faster and more agile than the mercs...so now you want to give them yet another tool to evade a merc quickly and easily? Imagine if a spy in Club House could just rapel up to Garden 2nd floor when a merc chases him out there without making 2-3 jumps like they do now, or a spy in Mall can just jump up to the 2nd level from the first without going to the stairwell at the far end of the map. That'd be a little bit much.

[Vega]

I can see possibilities of certain non-coop spots having a grappling icon, that sounds cool to me.

Westfall, I'm thinking it should be an inherent gadget.  If not that, then it's possible that we could incorporate a separate item slot that is used for certain, specific gadgets only.  Such as a "tactical slot."  This tactical slot would house gadgets that only helped with a spy's locomotion or entrance and departure.  For example, the tactical slot would house the grappling hook and some other gadget that helped with a spy's entrance into a building. 

You would have your normal 4-5 gadget slots (whatever we decide on) and then another slot that has only specific gadget to select from and are generally used for gaining access to certain areas.  The gadget selection in this slot would be useful and very specific so that each one has an advantage over one another. 

[Gawain]

The best way to go about this is to only have certain spots in the map where you can use the grappling hook.

we already have those in balanced places, put in there by the map makers: ropes and pipes. XD

[neth]

You would have your normal 4-5 gadget slots (whatever we decide on) and then another slot that has only specific gadget to select from and are generally used for gaining access to certain areas.   

well, we dont have any other ideas than the hook as far.


I just wonder if any of our gadget discussions will be ever used  :D

[I <3 U]

Just to add another reason why you can't have a grappling hook usable anywhere: spies are already much faster and more agile than the mercs...so now you want to give them yet another tool to evade a merc quickly and easily? Imagine if a spy in Club House could just rapel up to Garden 2nd floor when a merc chases him out there without making 2-3 jumps like they do now, or a spy in Mall can just jump up to the 2nd level from the first without going to the stairwell at the far end of the map. That'd be a little bit much.

The grappling hook wouldnt be one which you shoot and fly up. youd shoot it, and then climb up it, so it would take time, probably about 10 seconds (from g1 to g2). Ten seconds to CLIMB it that it, it takes maybe 1-3 seconds to aim and fire.

Oh and Kubunator you totally ripped my idea.

[I <3 U]

I can see possibilities of certain non-coop spots having a grappling icon, that sounds cool to me.

Westfall, I'm thinking it should be an inherent gadget.  If not that, then it's possible that we could incorporate a separate item slot that is used for certain, specific gadgets only.  Such as a "tactical slot."  This tactical slot would house gadgets that only helped with a spy's locomotion or entrance and departure.  For example, the tactical slot would house the grappling hook and some other gadget that helped with a spy's entrance into a building. 

You would have your normal 4-5 gadget slots (whatever we decide on) and then another slot that has only specific gadget to select from and are generally used for gaining access to certain areas.  The gadget selection in this slot would be useful and very specific so that each one has an advantage over one another. 

Yeh that sounds cool.
Then we'd have to think of a few more gaining access gadgets :)

Maybe we could have a flubber gadget, so the spies can jump super high  ;D.

[Test-Subject]

Maybe we could have a flubber gadget, so the spies can jump super high  ;D.

What a bad Idea

[Gawain]

flubber roflcopter
how about a no_clip gadget? and a force field creating gadget? or some fancy ninja sabers? omg  ::)

[I <3 U]

flubber roflcopter
how about a no_clip gadget? and a force field creating gadget? or some fancy ninja sabers? omg  ::)

rofl, we shud have a spwn ninja gadget, where spies shoot out an egg and seconds later like 10 japenese ninjas come out n pwnt the merc:). Or a Mini-me doctor evil gadget would be cool